Hughes may not attend 4 Continents???

[Spider68]

Excerpt from 1/20/03 LA Times:

Women Make Skating Cool
By Helene Elliott, Times Staff Writer

...Based on their performances, several skaters were chosen to go to the Four Continents event Feb. 10-16 in Beijing. Goebel, third-place finisher Ryan Jahnke and fourth-place finisher Scott Smith accepted, as did Hughes, McDonough and fifth-place finisher Jennifer Kirk. However, Hughes' coach, Robin Wagner, said Hughes might reconsider because the trip is so long.

[lisabelle]

after all her talk about not being at her best for nationals, i think its a pretty bad idea to not go...but its not my decision.

[adrianchew]

Interesting - most of us heard that they (either Sarah or Robin or both) had specially requested for 4 Continents to give Sarah more competition time before Worlds. If she doesn't do it - Yebin will get to go but it will be pretty hectic for Yebin doing both 4 Continents and World Juniors... they're almost back to back.

[KMK0902]

I wish that the USFSA would start to treat 4CC with some respect. Never have the US sent their top skaters. I really annoys me!

And regarding Sarah, I would think that another competition would be good for her!

Kat

[RobinA]

I don't mind if the USFSA doesn't treat 4Cs as a premier event. It's not, and the U.S top skaters don't need the additional exposure, they need rest. This way the skaters just below the top, the ones who need it, get the experience. Do Michelle and Michael REALLY need another international event? No. Give it to the Jahnkes and the McDonoughs, it's an investment in the future.

[Spinner]

Originally posted by RobinA
I don't mind if the USFSA doesn't treat 4Cs as a premier event. It's not, and the U.S top skaters don't need the additional exposure, they need rest. This way the skaters just below the top, the ones who need it, get the experience. Do Michelle and Michael REALLY need another international event? No. Give it to the Jahnkes and the McDonoughs, it's an investment in the future.

You make some valid points and I agree with you for the most part. However, some of us are wondering if it's more a situation of this event needing the top skaters, not the other way around. 4CC so far has yet to garner anywhere near the amount of respect Europeans enjoys. One has to wonder if a couple years of the likes of MK, Sasha, Sarah, Tim, Mike etc. would sway some favor and 'importance' its way. Just a thought.

[haribobo]

So what if 4CC doesn't get to be as important as Europeans?? Is that really so terrible??? I don't really understand the argument. The only field that is really weaker than Euros is Dance, and we are already sending our best teams. The ISU has assigned ranking points, the USFSA makes it an important event in determining our teams for next year. There is nothing that can be done. If the Canadian champion can't beat our 5th or 6th place skater, do we really need to send Michelle or Sasha there to squash the competition? It's pointless for them, barely a challenge except maybe Onda will be there. I am glad they step aside for people like McDonough and Kirk. For Michael, I would think he has skated in so many presitigious international events over the years...besides, the men's field is already strong and exciting. 4CC doesn't need him and he doesn't need it. Yet for Scott Smith, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. I personally would hate to see the same 3 American skaters at every single competition. I think having skaters like Smith and Kirk there adds some intrigue to the event, and medaling for them is much more of a challenge and accomplishment. I'm just glad 4CC was moved back in the schedule so skaters don't have to fly right out after nationals halfway around the world...

As for Ye Bin, I can't imagine her doing 4CC and Jr. Worlds back to back, I think she'd have to choose one or the other. There is no way to peak in China and then peak a week later in Czech Republic. I guess either Amber Corwin would go to 4CC or Alissa Czisny would go to Jr. Worlds...nice little chain reaction Sarah could cause. :)

[Artemis]

Originally posted by haribobo
So what if 4CC doesn't get to be as important as Europeans?? Is that really so terrible???

It is when you consider that the original intent of 4CC was to have it as a qualifying event for Worlds. If the event is never given its props, with a fair representation of all the top skaters outside Europe, there's less of a chance that the ISU will go in that direction. And IMO, having a combination of 4CC/Euros and ISU rankings is far better than having the qualifying round at Worlds.

The points you make, haribobo, are valid in relation to the competition as it is now. But it also seems somewhat hypocritical for the USFSA to diss the ISU in this way.

Hmmm ... wonder what the US team for 4CC will look like when the competition is held in the US?

[RobinA]

Maybe the thing is that the world just doesn't NEED a 4Cs competition. What with the Grand Prix series, the final, the various Nationals... The skaters are already saying, and with merit I think, that the season is grueling. Why add yet another top level competition to the mix? Already top people are ditching Grand Prix appearances, both through design and lame sounding injury pleas. Diluting individual competitions even further doesn't seem to be in the existing events' best interest.

[KMK0902]

I second everything you just said Artemis!!!

And the complain was ( before 4CC ) from non-european countries that they needed another high-level competition before worlds.
Re Michael Weiss, yes he'scertainly participated in a lot of competitions, but I don't think another run-through before worlds would hurt him. Just because the top US ladies could beat the top 3 Canadian ladies, that's no reason not to send them!! I guess all 3 canadian pair-teams could stay home then.....
4CC was meant to be a qualifier for worlds, but unless USFSA officials gets off their high horses and starts treating it with respect ( it kind of reminds me off MW's comments about his competitiors after the short program ) it'll never happen.
I wish ISU would just go ahead and declare 4CC world-qualifier.

Kat

[Spinner]

Originally posted by RobinA
The skaters are already saying, and with merit I think, that the season is grueling. Why add yet another top level competition to the mix?

Then why not scrap Europeans too? They are all going to that extra competition and have been for years. If we scrap 4CC, they'll be doing one more than than the non-Euros. 4CC evens out the number of competitions. Besides, with the ISU rankings coming into play (not that I really care about them), without 4CC we'd have nothing to balance out the points they earned at Euros.

[hoptoad]

Artemis said:

It is when you consider that the original intent of 4CC was to have it as a qualifying event for Worlds. If the event is never given its props, with a fair representation of all the top skaters outside Europe, there's less of a chance that the ISU will go in that direction. And IMO, having a combination of 4CC/Euros and ISU rankings is far better than having the qualifying round at Worlds.

Hmm, I admit that I haven't thought a great deal about this, but why do you think it would be a good idea to use the continents events this way?

I can understand why people don't like the qualifying rounds, but wouldn't using "qualifying rounds" assigned by *geography* be even more unfair than using those assigned by previous Worlds rankings?

Also, I think it would make injuries even more of a factor in determining the World Champions. It's already tragic when a top contender (or anyone!) gets injured or sick the week of Worlds. If skaters also had to be healthy during the qualifying competition, that's more chances for this to happen.

At least if someone is ill during their national qualifying competitions, the federations can use their judgment about who to send to Worlds. I know we often complain about these decisions, but they are often correct. Wasn't VV too ill to compete at Russian nationals? If she was ill at Europeans, but healthy when Worlds came around, I wouldn't like a system that would ruin her shot at Worlds.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts. I'd like to hear others...

OOOPS, now that I reread what Artemis wrote more carefully, I see that she is proposing a combination of continents/ISU rankings. How do you see that working? (I'm leaving my initial thoughts unchanged since I think they are still important considerations.)

[Artemis]

Originally posted by hoptoad
... now that I reread what Artemis wrote more carefully, I see that she is proposing a combination of continents/ISU rankings. How do you see that working?

I haven't worked this out in any detail, partly because I haven't done the math re: how many ISU member countries there are in each geographic region, etc. But maybe something like this: use the ISU rankings to select, say, 12 competitors in each discipline. Then for the remaining 12 spots, select the top 6 placements from Euros and the top 6 from 4CC. This formula would need some fine tuning (as would the ISU ranking system itself), and I wouldn't be in favour of any one country sending more than 3 skaters to Worlds in any discipline, but that's the general idea.

As for 4CC being another "gruelling" competition before Worlds, I don't buy that for several reasons. First, European skaters are pretty much required to do Euros, so if it is "gruelling," then European skaters are at a disadvantage. Second, skaters seem to have no problem skating 3 GP competitions in a month then touring for 6 weeks before Christmas ... hmm, d'ya think money might be the issue there? Nah!

I would like to see the timing of 4CC, GPF, and Worlds smoothed out a bit (although this year is a huge improvement over past years), but if we want this to be taken seriously as a sport, I think we have to be careful about complaints about a "gruelling" schedule.

[haribobo]

I agree with RobinA. After all, Sarah, Sasha, Michelle, and Mike get many more chances for exposure and competition besides 4CC. The USFSA creates their pro-am competitions that the top skaters are expected to compete in. I don't believe Russia has anything like this for Irina, Viktoria, and Elena. If they want to do this, they have to come to the US and skate in our pro-ams, which most Russians don't usually do. Europeans is the only chance for the Russians to compete against other top skaters in Europe besides the Grand Prix, when often half of their main European contendors aren't there. It's a great chance for Elena Sokolova to win her first medal of the past couple seasons. I mean, Sasha has been in (and won) like 6 competitions already this season...enough is enough!! Sarah and Michelle also have more medals than they know what to do with. So the top skaters, the Russians, need Europeans because they aren't fortunate enough to have federations which will put on the exposure show for them. The USFSA operates differently and they really popularize skating to great masses with their pro-am shows, I think the ISU re$pects that, as they should. You just cannot put the US and Russia on a level playing field.

I am all for the qualifying rounds at Worlds-- doesn't bother me. Weiss was right when he said the q-rounds flush out the most consistent over 3 programs. I think it's an important competition and these athletes should be in good enough shape to skate 3 programs in a week. Having the free program first is a much more reliable way of getting the top skaters into the next round and in direct comparison with one another for the SP and FS.

BTW, I wouldn't be so confident about the Canadian pairs...I think China has a great chance at sweeping the podium-- but at least it's a good opportunity for all involved. I mean, how often do Shen/Zhao get to compete among other top pairs, aside from the Grand Prix and Worlds?? Maybe if they are lucky they get one pro-am per season.

[Arsenette]

Four Continents was created with the same mindset of Europeans in many ways. Consider the ones that are not Worlds and Grand Prix material.. they need all the help they can get to get international experience.. I mean like Mexico, Chinese Taipei, Korea, etc. There are SOOO many other countries that would kill (okay.. that's dramatic) for the opportunity to put their skaters in the international field up against the likes of the "powerhouses".. Albeit much more subdued, 4CC does have more clout than any other international competition (when was the last time you saw Skate Israel, Vienna Cup, Golden Spin, etc. on TV??) by actually getting television coverage around the world!! I for one when we get sanctioned am going to chomp at the bit because 3 of my skaters (in each discipline) will be able to get MORE exposure than the 1 spot we are allowed at Worlds (unless we get top 10 or top 5). THIS competition (along with Europeans) allows more skaters in the "lower ranks" from the same country to compete at the World stage where we don't get the chance at Worlds. Obviously we would never get a chance at any Grand Prix events if we don't place high enough at Worlds. So YES.. 4CC is horribly important for the non-European countries.

[NorthernLite]

Originally posted by Artemis


As for 4CC being another "gruelling" competition before Worlds, I don't buy that for several reasons. First, European skaters are pretty much required to do Euros, so if it is "gruelling," then European skaters are at a disadvantage.

Are any of the European skaters going to have to travel as far as the distance between NYC and Beijing?

Also, the U.S. ladies don't need to go any farther than their own nationals to compete with the best in the world. Except for the Russians, that's not true for skaters from Euro countries. Skaters from Finland or France benefit from the extra competition they get at Euros which they don't get at home.

If the trip wasn't quite so long, Sarah probably would get something out of just being in front of international judges. As it is, 4Cs will be fun for me with the presence of AP, Jenny, Ryan and whatever Japanese skaters are going. (Is Arakawa slated for this?)

[hoptoad]

Thanks for the reply Artemis. Could you elaborate on why a different qualifying scheme would produce better results than the current one?

One huge problem I see with taking the top 12 from the ISU rankings while still limiting any country to three spots, is that it might sometimes result in skaters having NO chance to qualify for worlds through their nationals. Suppose for example that the US had three ladies in the top 12. No other US lady would have any chance to go to Worlds unless one of those skaters pulled out, even if she beat them at Nationals or other competitions. That seems terribly unfair to up and coming skaters who may be better than the current high ranking ones. Further, they won't be able to rack up ISU points if they get very few chances to go to big events, so it would be a vicious cycle. All things considered, I agree with the three skater limit, but would like to still let federations have the final say over who gets to go.

One thing that will always be a factor for 4C is the travel involved. Many skaters will always have to make a very long trip across many time zones, and in that respect it can't help being a more grueling event overall than Europeans.

The current situation really doesn't bother me at all. I LOVE getting the chance to see a greater variety of skaters, and I wouldn't mind a bit if Japan starting sending its second tier of ladies.

[SkateGuard]

Two more points:

1. 4CC's are in China this year. For anyone in the Midwest, it's a 20-hour flight each way, plus they're 12 hours ahead of us. I know people who have travelled to China for business, and it's grueling...and they are Chinese citizens (so they know the language, food, etc.)!

2. Sasha and Michelle qualified for the Grand Prix final, which is in Russia. I can't imagine their schedules if they did both events; I can't imagine how tough it would be to travel and compete in both China and Russia almost back-to-back.

Last year, Belbin/Agosto were named to both Worlds (Nagano, Japan) and Jr. Worlds (Lillehamer, Norway), so they decided not to come back to the US between competitions. I believe they said when they did get back home, they were exhausted! (And I wonder if that was part of the spill Ben had in the OD at Worlds..a bit of a tired mind, perhaps.)

I think if 4CCs were in Canada, more of the top US skaters would go; it's just too hard to travel to Asia before Worlds. Euros is a bit easier...there are what, five time zones in Europe? Plus, the cities are a bit closer together...I think it takes longer to travel from NYC to LA than it takes to travel across Europe.

Erin

[hoptoad]

good points about Russia, haribobo...

and Arsenette, I hope to see your skaters soon on the 4C broadcast!

[Arsenette]

The rink officially opens in August.. KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED!!! :twisted: :oops: :mrgreen: :halo: :bow:

[RoaringSkates]

I agree that this competition has yet to find its place.

How about, instead of 4CCs, we break it down into two "Europeans"-like competitions: 1) Asians and 2) Americans. Asians would include the Asian countries, including China, Japan, as well as Australia, and also many of the former Soviet states. Other non-European countries in the area could choose to participate there instead of at Europeans. Americans would include North and South America, sort of like the old North Americans, but including skaters from South and Central America.

I think an Asian competition already exists, so we could expand on that. Holding an Americans over here in the Americas might make it more likely that our skaters would actually attend.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by hoptoad
Could you elaborate on why a different qualifying scheme would produce better results than the current one?

Well for starters, if we're talking "gruelling," how about skating your LP, your SP, and your LP again all in the space of less than a week?

But I just hate the qualifying round so much: there's the unfairness of the draw (there's inevitably one pool that's got tougher competition than the other), the mental games you have to play (you want to skate well enough to place high in the Q but not so well you've used up your best performance for only 20%), and the fact that it alters the weighting so that only the top 2 going into the LP can win the gold without "help" (as opposed to the top 3 having that potential when there's no Q round and it's 30% SP 70% LP).

[Arsenette]

Originally posted by RoaringSkates
Americans would include North and South America, sort of like the old North Americans, but including skaters from South and Central America.

Uhm.. there isn't anything in South America (Mexico is Central America).. :oops:

I disagree that they should be regionalized. They NEED to compete against the powerhouses in order to learn and get better!!

[adrianchew]

The answer for qualifying rounds is pretty simple - use it for qualifying but do not carry over the scores... only the SP and FS scores should count.

Qualifying rounds are commonplace in lower level competitions - they serve a purpose to lessen the numbers of skaters - those who can't make it past qualifying aren't likely to do very well. But in USFSA competitions, the qualifying round only serves this purpose... it does not factor into the final outcome.

The Grand Prix Finals are brutal though - because they require skaters within a short span of time to skate 2 different freeskate programs (not the same one). The time compression at GPF plus skating 3 different programs in total in that short period is the hardest.

Well spaced out qualifying (day in between each competition) that does not factor into the final outcome is pretty doable... but IMO qualifying should be just that - qualifying, and not count towards the final results.

[haribobo]

That's true, Adrian...USFSA competitions always make the most sense. Except when the sectionals have uneven fields. :o Definitely time to re-do those regions and sections...

Also, I agree that doing a qual-round then a short program 4 days later and a free program 2 days after that should not be so hard. In fact, I think Worlds *should* involve 3 performances...it seems so depressing to me to work all year long for worlds and then have your dream totally wasted by one freak fall in the short program. At least with q-rounds, everyone gets to skate their free program, so at least 4 minutes. How pathetic for someone to train all year for worlds and then miss the cut after the short program-- that is the most depressing thing, I think. The free program is a better way to determine who gets to continue the competition-- more time and attempts to show what they've got. And I think all countries should have the chance to have a skater at worlds every year, they should not have their seasons end just because of a poor performance at Euros or 4CC

[hoptoad]

But I just hate the qualifying round so much: there's the unfairness of the draw (there's inevitably one pool that's got tougher competition than the other), the mental games you have to play (you want to skate well enough to place high in the Q but not so well you've used up your best performance for only 20%), and the fact that it alters the weighting so that only the top 2 going into the LP can win the gold without "help" (as opposed to the top 3 having that potential when there's no Q round and it's 30% SP 70% LP).

I don't like it either when only two skaters "control their own destiny" going into the long program, which seems to happen too easily under the current system. I'm not opposed in theory to rewarding skaters for consistency over three phases of competition, but it does make the final free skate less exciting. I guess I'm leaning toward Adrian's solution: let qualifying be qualifying and only count the short and long.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by haribobo
At least with q-rounds, everyone gets to skate their free program, so at least 4 minutes. How pathetic for someone to train all year for worlds and then miss the cut after the short program-- that is the most depressing thing, I think.

I was actually thinking that if there was some sort of pre-qualifier in place, there would be no eliminations. Once you get to Worlds, you skate both your SP and your LP. Therefore, you'd be competing in the whole thing, not just in the Q round.

But I also like the idea of throwing out the marks once the Q round is over, and using the Q round only to decide skate order.

[donnamarie]

For 4 Continents, distance is indeed a problem. These skaters are only human and cannot do everything. For Europeans, there is not the great distance to travel. I think the suggestion to have an Asian and American breakdown is very smart. I also think that allowing the 2nd tier skaters to go to 4cc allows them the exposure and experience that they need.

When 4cc is held in the U.S., perhaps more top U.S. skaters will participate - wouldn't you? But perhaps fewer Asian skaters will be able to do so.

Don't underestimate the difficulty of traveling long distances. Easy for us to say, if we aren't the ones having to do it. As for Sarah, another competition would be great for her, but so would some more training time at home. Either way, it's up to her and her coach.

[leap of faith]

Just some facts from past years:

4CC was in Salt Lake City in 2001 and the top skaters from China and Japan were all there.
Fumie, Yoshie
Takeshi (although he trains in Barrie so it's not as hard to travel)
S&Z, P&T
Li

They all came over to compete.

Skaters missing from 4CC 2001:
Michelle, Sarah, Tim

Location was not a problem since the event was in the US.

The event was held in Japan in 2000 and all the top Canadian skaters were there:
S&P, Elvis etc.

Takesh had to travel to Japan from Barrie.

The GPF being around the same time I don't buy into either since S&P, S&Z, B&K and D&L have all done both events in the same year and 2001 GPF was in Japan, quite a ways from SLC.

Every country but the USFSA is giving this event the credit it needs. It's not a developmental event or a B international, it is a continental championship and should be treated as such.

[Arsenette]

I think the other reason US doesn't send their top guns is that they had just finished Nationals.. Every other country always has their Nationals from October-November with Canada in early January.. Heck.. US sometimes has the competition as late as February! 8O My guess is that they are only sending skaters that aren't going to Worlds or needs the competition before Worlds (Junior or Senior).

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by leap of faith
Just some facts from past years:

4CC was in Salt Lake City in 2001 and the top skaters from China and Japan were all there.
Fumie, Yoshie
Takeshi (although he trains in Barrie so it's not as hard to travel)
S&Z, P&T
Li

They all came over to compete.

Skaters missing from 4CC 2001:
Michelle, Sarah, Tim

Location was not a problem since the event was in the US.


This one is a weird case, because 2001 was the Olympic test event, so the skaters _wanted_ to be at the Olympic venue. If I remember correctly, GPF was the next week in Japan, and Michelle, Sarah, and Tim had all qualified for it. That's why they skipped.

I really think the USFSA is allowing the skaters to choose whether or not they want to go. These skaters don't want to make the trip, so the USFSA is sending other skaters. Others go anyway....before B/A's Worlds/Jr. Worlds around-the-world trip, they also went to Korea for 4CC's. At least it's better than some of them pulling out the week before, forcing us to send unprepared athletes.

Skate Canada has done this too...Sale/Pelletier were quoted in Dec. 2001 about how all their competitions were in NA that season, even though they knew 4CC's were in Korea. And what year did Lang/Tcherneychev win? I assume B/K were no-shows (or were they injured...I don't remember).

Euros are so different because the individual federations don't usually name their world teams until after they see how their skaters compete in front of an international panel. At least in the US and Canada, the World teams are named before 4CC's, so the motivation for going is different. However, for US pairs, it might have been a good idea to send some of these teams to 4CC's before naming the world team....

Erin

[Lise]

IIRC, Skate Canada had told B/K, S/P that they could skip 4C to focus on the Olympics (since they were our medal hopes they wanted them rested.). D/L withdrew due to illeness, Emanuel pulled out due to injury. I think the rest competed...

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by hoptoad
I don't like it either when only two skaters "control their own destiny" going into the long program, which seems to happen too easily under the current system. I'm not opposed in theory to rewarding skaters for consistency over three phases of competition, but it does make the final free skate less exciting. I guess I'm leaning toward Adrian's solution: let qualifying be qualifying and only count the short and long. I certainly agree with that. Qualifying should be just that....qualifying. If the placements want to be used as the basis for skate order that would be OK, but the marks should be left at the door when the SP begins.

The thing I don't understand is why any of the top US skaters would want to go to this comp. It lacks the prestige to be really important. They already are on the World Team. At the end of the season, they don't really need another competition, the rigors of travel, and potential for injury. I would think rest, and an excellent training regemine would do the most good.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
The thing I don't understand is why any of the top US skaters would want to go to this comp. It lacks the prestige to be really important.

But that's exactly the point we're trying to make: part of the reason it "lacks the prestige" is because the top US skaters skip it every year. We can argue chicken and egg, but I can guarantee you that this event will never gain any "prestige" until the USFSA and US skaters decide to treat it as such ... or unless the ISU makes it virtually mandatory by factoring it in to deciding who goes to Worlds.

[loveskating]

I can see why Sarah/Mike would not want to attend, with Worlds coming up, and I also agree 4Cs lacks prestige because the top US skaters do not attend.

What was missed in the setting up of this competition is the fact that for the Europeans, Europeans is travel wise kind of like our Nationals...while the 4Cs is far more global in the travel sense...and then you combine that with the GP Finals, and its really a body twister re: travel.

I don't have any solution, just saying its a mess, for sure.

[leap of faith]

This one is a weird case, because 2001 was the Olympic test event, so the skaters _wanted_ to be at the Olympic venue. If I remember correctly, GPF was the next week in Japan, and Michelle, Sarah, and Tim had all qualified for it. That's why they skipped.

Skate Canada has done this too...Sale/Pelletier were quoted in Dec. 2001 about how all their competitions were in NA that season, even though they knew 4CC's were in Korea. And what year did Lang/Tcherneychev win? I assume B/K were no-shows (or were they injured...I don't remember).

Erin [/QUOTE]

in 2001 Sale and Pelletier and Dubreuil and Lauzon went to the GPF and they didn't skip 4CC.

Last for year Canada was the one time we didn't send our top team. Elvis, B&K and S&P were excused being the medal faves. We lost D&L and Eman due to injury although they had been planning to attend.

B&K missed 2000 with injury with L&T won and last season for the reason mentioned above.

[SkateGuard]

Okay, leap of faith, now this all makes sense....

I just couldn't understand why people were making such a big deal out of our top singles skaters not competing when I didn't remember seeing Canada's top skaters at 4CC's occasionally.

But please notice that our top pairs and dance teams will make the trek to China to compete. And if you look at 4CC results for the past few years, we do pretty well with our "B" singles skaters, including Kirk's win last year.

It would be nice if the USFSA would force our top three women to attend the event, but the rules allow--for every competition--that a skater can decline an assignment. (Sometimes skaters decline "B" internationals or spring internationals; it's more often than people think.) It's different than an injury; there is a DEC on the result page of the USFSA's website. My guess is that if Michelle, Sasha, et. al. _wanted_ to go to 4CC's, they would be named to the team.

The big difference between 4CC's and Euros is that at Euros, the skaters are still competing for their country's spots on the World team. What year was it that Russia kicked a men's skater off the World team--after winning a bronze at Nationals--because of a poor showing at Euros? Until the USFSA starts using 4CC's as a determining factor for Worlds (which I don't think is such a bad idea, especially in pairs), I really don't see much of a reason for making our top skaters go.

Erin

[Excidra]

Just blame it all on USFSA, seriously. As a poster above stated every year we send our best(B&K,Elvis,S&P,D&L,Emunal,Jennifer and others) to compete at 4C. That shows that Canada takes the 4C as a serious international competition.
This year is not going to be any different, as I expect Canada to send it's strongest team to compete at 4C.

I'm sure if Michelle/Sasha/Sarah attended this event, then it could become a prestige competition, it may not garner the same attention Europeans garners, but in few more years it could be right up there.

[AxelAnnie22]

I am not saying this is the way it should be, but seems to me that this is the way it is:

With the exception of (perhaps) Fumie, and now Yoshie, there has been virtually no competition at 4CCC for the US Ladies.....why bother. Obviously the USFSA doesn't give a hoot about the event. Until that changes, it will just continue on as a step-child, and a "B" kind of event.

[Skatingsarah]

If the USFSA doesnt take it as a premier event why should Sarah Hughes, it might be benifical for Sarah Hughes to stay behind and train for the worlds. Then again thats IMO
-Sarah

[IgglesII]

C'mon, Sarah, go to China :) How many times in your life is someone gonna offer to send you off to see the Great Wall for FREE?

Besides, it's not like she has to go to the GPF, and Worlds *IS* basically right down the street from home this year. (for those that consider a 4 hour train ride down the street)

[Terri]

The original intent was to give North American skaters another chance to win prize money as the Europeans skaters were doing at Europeans. The idea to use it as a qualifying round for Worlds came later. So if they decide to use it as a qualifying round then the federations will assign skaters accordingly, until then lesser known skaters will get a chance to compete and earn prize money. Good for them. And the competition has already been held in the US, in SLC.

[Mandera]

I agree that the 4 continents should be used as part of qualifying for worlds. Unless I'm mistaken, Skate Canada often uses that event to determine part of the world team when two skaters are close (wasn't there a skate off between Sandhu and Ferreira at the 4CC's once?). I would definitely like to see the 4CC's become a more important event - there really aren't that many. The only place where all the top skaters are is the Worlds, and then the top six at the Grand Prix Finals. Then there are Nationals. That's only three competitions. And saying that the top US skaters are too good for the 4CC's just sounds conceited.

[Shuilee]

The skaters at 4CC should be grateful that the top Americans don't show up, or else they would be thousands of dollars poorer...... :twisted:

[Shuilee]

If they use Euros and 4CC as qualifers for Worlds, how do they determine how many deserve to go to Worlds? Top 15 from Euros and Top 15 from 4CC? They'll have to keep it fair with a 50/50 split.

Methinks lots of those tiny European nations will be outraged if the ISU ever pass this! :twisted: Though I do hope that there would be a 50/50 split between JUDGES on the panel at Worlds (7 from Europe, 7 from 4CC). Now that I would like to see, but it'll never happen.... *sigh*

[blue111moon]

Prize money wasn't the reason behind the creation of 4CC. It was established to give countries who were not part of Europeans a place to expose their skaters to international judges. Before 4CC, North American and Asian skaters effectively had one less international competition than the Europeans and one less chance of being seen by European judges, which supposedly put them at a disadvantage at Worlds. Also, the breakup of the Soviet Union created such an influx of new countries to Europeans that the number of competitors threatened to overwhelm that event. 4CC was established as a remedy for these issues.

When you look at 4CC from those terms, there's even less incentive for the US to force the top skaters to attend. The international judges are already familiar with Michelle and Sarah and Mike, but our so-called "B" team could certainly benefit from being seen on a wider stage than simply Nationals. For the skaters who do go - and do well, it's a boost to both their careers and their bank accounts. But the prize money is just a bonus.

[Terri]

Prize money wasn't the sole reason but it was mentioned a lot at the time, more than exposing them to international judges. If they were expecting the top skaters to show up then the GP series and other minor senior internationals gave them many more chances at exposure than this one competition.

[icehunnie1111]

how much is the prize money?