Which skaters will the new Judging system benefit?

[Lark]

I honestly know very little about the new judging system.
I was curious to hear what any knowledgeable people think?
Will the new judging system benefit certain type of skaters over others?
Will Michelle, the near perfect Presentation skater with arguably "stale" technical progression prevail? Or will Irina, with demon-speed, sometimes gorgeous jumps and, IMO, barely adequate Presentaion come out on top?
Or will the system benefit a skater like Tara, who had mindblowing speed, great jumps and good Presentaion, IMO, the All-Around great skater, the female Plushenko?
Anyone know?

[Ivan W]

Who will it benefit?

ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!!!

[Arsenette]

Which system are you talking about? The one with the gymnastics style scoring where the artistry is sacrificed for the sake of points or the one that hides the scores so you don't know where they came from, who they belong to and which ones count? Oh.. sorry.. that's the current one together.. :roll: I think you know where I stand on this one.. it does benefit the ones that want to place at all costs.

[thvudragon]

That's not true, the new judging system will benefit some. It will benefit skaters like Ludmila Nelidina who have high technical ability but are painful to watch. It also might benefit Sarah Hughes. It all depends how many points the judges dock off for Sarah's cheated jumps.

TV

[jss]

I for one would actually like to see the new system before I make any judgements. I've read some people say that the new system doesn't take into account artistry, but then I've heard others say that artistry is still an important facctor in the scores.

[duane]

i dont think anything will change. when making their decisions, judges will still use whatever criteria they were using beforehand.

[thvudragon]

The new system is going to make it easier for judges to shift the marks their way. I judge could give MK -3 for all her jumps and give Irina +3 for all hers and no would know thanks to Sir $peedy's anonymous system. This new system is crap.

TV

[lolat]

www.bladesonice.com/mag/blaweb1.htm- I love it. According to this, Speedy is going for not all but some of the new rules this season. The biggest one being that the skater will earn more points for attempting harder jumps than not trying at all. Finally these ladies will have to leave the ice and get air born, lol. This will greatly help the Japanese ladies and probably Irina.

[Lee]

Um...where has it said that judges would still be anonymous under the new system? As far as anything official that's come out has said, this 9 of 14 system is a temporary stop-gap until a new, more objective system is in place. Please point me to where it's been annnounced the 9 of 14 is permanent.

[Lee]

I stand corrected -- it does appear a random draw of applicable scores will continue. However, I think reading this press release (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/content/transnews/0,10869,4844-128610-19728-18886-74842-3572-4771-layout46-129918-news-item,00.html) from the ISU site explains in far greater detail what is to come.

This is far more information than has been posted anywhere since these proposals were adopted in Kyoto.

[gracefulswan]

sarah should really benefit as she can consistently handle those jumps...albeit cheated and with unattractive entrances...:cry: i still can't figure out how in the world she can land them swinging her bent take-off leg so darn high and then slamming it down again... that it looks a bit awkward... but then, it seems to work for her.

[thvudragon]

I know what you mean. Usually, when skaters have that kind of bad technique, they are inconsistant. I guess Sarah is the exception. Tara also had bad technique and was consistant.

TV

[loveskating]

Thanks, Lee!

Can you clarify: does this mean that a SEPARATE group of people will certify an element or what?

"Each performed element is input into the system by a group of experts whose responsibility is to identify the element only, supervised by an assigned Technical Controller."

If so, I think that's good, because I find it sickening when some judge claims they didn't see someone single a 2 axel, etc.

[Arsenette]

But what bugs me is that it seems as if there is really no accounting for skaters who cheat jumps.. just put it in their program for content but not executed correctly.. even worse.. many of these skaters set up their jumps and don't pay attention to.. what's that? Choreography? What a concept. Under this system it's a glorified "Top Jump" competition.. why don't they just get rid of the music altogether and get it over already.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by Arsenette
But what bugs me is that it seems as if there is really no accounting for skaters who cheat jumps.. just put it in their program for content but not executed correctly..

Isn't that what the -1 to -3 execution grades are for?

Although that doesn't seem like enough of a range to reflect the differences between a tiny, shaky jump with poor air and landing positions but full rotation or close enough to count (i.e., successfully completed with no pluses or minuses for errors -- but would there be minuses for low quality?) and complete failure.

And if the jump is massively cheated (e.g., landed on a forward inside edge, taking off forward when it's supposed to be backward or backward in the case of an axel, or slightly overrotated double with a circle on the ice masquerading as a triple), theoretically the experts identifying the elements would not identify it as a completed triple.

even worse.. many of these skaters set up their jumps and don't pay attention to.. what's that? Choreography? What a concept. Under this system it's a glorified "Top Jump" competition.. why don't they just get rid of the music altogether and get it over already. [/B]

How do the five marks for presentation-like areas actually work? Supposedly there are very detailed guidelines for those, although we haven't seen them yet. :-(

[Lee]

Originally posted by loveskating
Thanks, Lee!

Can you clarify: does this mean that a SEPARATE group of people will certify an element or what?

"Each performed element is input into the system by a group of experts whose responsibility is to identify the element only, supervised by an assigned Technical Controller."

If so, I think that's good, because I find it sickening when some judge claims they didn't see someone single a 2 axel, etc. My understanding is that will be part of the referee's duties -- or at least, that's what was planned at one point; that may have changed. I *think* there will be the Technical Controller (maybe *this* position takes the place of the Referee?) and a couple other people determining which elements were completed. Those elements will be assigned a base point value and then the judges will assign a quality value, plus or minus from the base.

So, in effect yes, the Tech folks will determine if Johnny did a single or double axel, the judges will just determine how *well* it was done -- thinks like take-off on the right edge, sure landing on one foot, etc.

[Lee]

Originally posted by Ellyn
How do the five marks for presentation-like areas actually work? Supposedly there are very detailed guidelines for those, although we haven't seen them yet. :-( The marks are based on the existing criteria for presentation and will have value factors applied to them as well.

As for why *we* (fans?) haven't seen them yet, since it's still a work in progress, why *should* we (fans) see it? So an uninformed media can stir up even more of a tempest (most of them sure as he** didn't have their facts straight when they were whining, sniping and moaning last summer!)?

I'm sure there is still some fine-tuning to be done on the presentation criteria, as well as the rest of the criteria. The criteria will be available to people outside the officials, federations, coaches, etc when it's all ready to go, probably not before then.

[Gaela]

A link was posted a while back to a sophisticated statistical analysis by Rossano. I think I saved it somewhere as it was fascinating; I can post it again. He said that the new system had definite potential but required more time to be developed properly. As it is, it is far too crude to accurately reflect the skating with accuracy and fairness.

Who it benefits will be those who qualify for the most of the "plus" things, I would guess?

Rossano analyzed many systems, he said the current interim system is prone to a high degree of bias. He claimed the best system was "something median with tie breaker", and gave an excellent expanation as to why.

Sounds to be a perfect guy to help Speedy improved his system. Instead, Speedy asked the speed skating federation to vote in two new systems of which one is inferior to the last and the second is not adequate.

[Lee]

Rossano's 'analysis' of the new system was written last spring -- well before there was any substance to the system. I read that even *before* Kyoto. The 'median' system is also the one that was proposed by the USFSA at the Kyoto meetings -- where whoever was doing the presentation couldn't manage to make the delegates understand what they were trying to do...