World and Olympic coaches

[musicman]

Do the coaches of the U.S. World and Olympic team members receive a salary from the USFSA or are they compensated by the skaters they coach or both?

[what?meworry?]

the competitors recieve money based on "team envelope" placement but the coaches, no matter how high the skaters, are not compensated by usfsa at all.

coaches as well as skaters have their travel expenses covered when representing the usa internationally, but the skater pays the coach for the time, usually a flat rate for competitions.

rare (and greedy, i feel) coaches have charged their competitors for the income missed by traveling with them on competitions. but it's been a while since i've heard a complaint about any coach actually doing that.

for regular off season or usfsa qualifying competitions, most coaches have their students share the costs of airfare, car rental, hotel plus a relatively reasonable flat fee per competitor for the time. a few also charge for food, but most, i believe, do not.

[sk8pics]

Originally posted by what?meworry?

rare (and greedy, i feel) coaches have charged their competitors for the income missed by traveling with them on competitions. but it's been a while since i've heard a complaint about any coach actually doing that.


Why do you think it's greedy for a coach to not want to lose money by traveling to a competition? I don't think it's unreasonable to charge for lost income, and I have heard of coaches doing that, but I do think it should be an average weekly income, not their highest in a year (which IMO would be greedy).

Pat

[Gaela]

Don't coaches takes a cut of a skaters' winnings? So if a coach is charging for lessons and taking a cut of a winning skaters' loot, then charging for missed income could be seen as greedy.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by sk8pics
Why do you think it's greedy for a coach to not want to lose money by traveling to a competition?

In my view this is greedy because travelling to a competition is part of the job of being a coach, and is likely already factored into the fees. I could see perhaps billing the skater for the travel costs themselves (flight, accomodation, etc.), but charging for the "missed fees" while away seems both greedy and petty.

[Arsenette]

Originally posted by Artemis
In my view this is greedy because travelling to a competition is part of the job of being a coach, and is likely already factored into the fees. I could see perhaps billing the skater for the travel costs themselves (flight, accomodation, etc.), but charging for the "missed fees" while away seems both greedy and petty.

ITA.. and unlike lower level competition where the skater has the opportunity to split coaches costs with other skaters that share the same coach.. the higher level skaters go alone to these competitions and have to pay for everyone (coache(es), parents and themselves). The amount spent per year is outrageous.. some even by-pass some lessons to be able to afford everything else.. outside of the higher tier skaters that demand fees for appearances and have other income like sponsorships and commercials.. the rest of the pack (unless filthy rich) just doesn't have the income (even with both parents working) to be able to do things. A coach knows that (or should) and should only charge for their services.. not their personal life.

[kar5162]

Originally posted by Arsenette
ITA.. and unlike lower level competition where the skater has the opportunity to split coaches costs with other skaters that share the same coach.. the higher level skaters go alone to these competitions and have to pay for everyone (coache(es), parents and themselves). The amount spent per year is outrageous.. some even by-pass some lessons to be able to afford everything else.. outside of the higher tier skaters that demand fees for appearances and have other income like sponsorships and commercials.. the rest of the pack (unless filthy rich) just doesn't have the income (even with both parents working) to be able to do things. A coach knows that (or should) and should only charge for their services.. not their personal life.

I totally disagree with this. If a coach is going with a skater to a competition, they are not charging for their personal life - they are charging for their services. Fact is, the vast majority of coaches in the US are paid hourly. If you are going to a competition with a skater, you are not able to stay at home and teach. You lose that income by accompanying the skater.

It is the coach's responsibility to inform the skater what their fees are and that they should be reasonable. (An average for that time of year seems appropriate to me.) The student can choose to have the coach accompany them or not. There is no requirement that I know of that you go to a competition with a coach.

Think of those mostly unknown coaches (there's really quite a few) who have 1-2 students who go to a big summer competition and regionals each year. Probably the kids don't make it to sectionals. If teaching is the main source of the coach's income, should he/she really lose out on 2 weeks of income to take 1-2 kids to regionals? The only comparison I can think of would be if your boss said "I'd like you to go to Albany for a week for a conference. The conference takes 1 hour a day, so I'm only going to pay you 5 hours for the whole week, even though you'd typically work 25 hours a week here. Sound like fun?" Who would do that?

[Arsenette]

Originally posted by kar5162
The only comparison I can think of would be if your boss said "I'd like you to go to Albany for a week for a conference. The conference takes 1 hour a day, so I'm only going to pay you 5 hours for the whole week, even though you'd typically work 25 hours a week here. Sound like fun?" Who would do that?

I see the comparison but it doesn't apply here. When you are not competing you don't pay your coaches hotel, food, transportation or any of that.. so when you do compete you pay for the expenses they would incur.. I don't see how this is bad.. anything above it is too much - like time loss from work. If you are a high enough level - THIS IS YOUR INCOME.. very few high level coaches do anything else other than coach so this doesn't even apply. Besides.. when you have a coach you would assume that there will be an agreement on whether or not the coach is willing to even travel with a skater. Plenty of coaches don't travel - don't want to or they can't - but even less coaches do travel and expect the skater to subsidize their life away from skating.

[kar5162]

Originally posted by Arsenette
I don't see how this is bad.. anything above it is too much - like time loss from work. If you are a high enough level - THIS IS YOUR INCOME.. very few high level coaches do anything else other than coach so this doesn't even apply.

But this is my point exactly. That's what they do - coach. And if they are traveling with a skater, they are not coaching...they are not able to earn money. I'm salaried, so when I go on a trip, if they aren't asking me to work 40 hours a week, I still get my full salary...if I need to work 60, I just get my salary.

If a coach makes $1,800 per week coaching and they have to go to regionals and all they get is their expenses reimbursed and $180 for the 2 hours they spend with the skater (at $90/hr), why would anyone ever go? They have to pay taxes on the $180, purchase health insurance, and then pay basics like rent, food, etc.

[Arsenette]

Originally posted by kar5162
..why would anyone ever go?

Exposure. A coach with high credentials (meaning the results of the skaters they have coached) will get the exposure that they want. A competition coach coaches for the oportunity to go to an event and present his hard work to the judges. His/her name is attached to the skater and therefore can command higher fees to other skaters and may even attract MORE skaters of higher caliber. A non-competition coach is at the mercy of the skaters that come through the doors of the rink. They have no way of displaying their skills to attract bigger and better skaters (and therefore demand a higher rate).

Think about it.. for a non-competitive coach you pay for everything yourself (insurance, transportation, meals, etc.) and get "chump change" from lower level skaters that don't pay anywhere near as much as a higher level skater (especially if they - the skaters -are not even high enough to enter big events - typically $20/per lesson).. while the competition coach - especially a high level one - can command more per session (sometimes even $1/minute) PLUS gets everything paid while they go on "vacation". They don't technically coach during competitions.. they are on there for the ride. They moniter the progress and do fixes here and there since you should only be competiting when you are ready - you don't coach at a competition! Then they go home and fix whatever problems they had during competition. But then it's back to their own money (for the coaches). The bigger the competition the more they travel around the world for basically being a person who cheers you on. The real work is at home on the training ice day in day out teaching you to do what you do in competition.

A coach makes the decision to go to these competitions (especially the far out ones).. He/she knows that they will be out of town a good portion of the time doing that.. it's a choice.. it shouldn't be a penalty for the skater. Who pays the skater for losing time from work or school or any of that? They PAY to do these things.. a coach only helps along the way.

[JD]

we used to have a coach [for a skater not yet at juvenile] in Canada who charged the following at a local competition 15 minutes away:

44.00 [each] [the competition fee- BTW-she never showed up until 10 min b/f the skate, unless she had a group of kids -all in the same flight-and then she would show up maybe five minutes earlier- if she didn't have kids in the flight right before--parents used to all stand around with multiple kids 4 or 5, waiting for her-or she would follow the parents around and socialize with other coaches instead of pep talk and prep]

2.00 gas [each girl paid this]

8.00 food [each]

For an out of town in the summer:[over two nights]

44.00 competition fee
25.00 per skater, food
5.00 gas per skater
hotel bill split between skaters [oh, and she brought her boyfriend, babysitter and her kids too-so they needed two rooms, which we all paid for]

She couldn't really charge for missed lesson fees b/c she took all the kids with her.

At local comps, she usually had 15-20 kids competing... we felt some of the charges were a little excessive....given that no one else in the area is charging like this, not even the level 4 coach. And quite frankly, she is there to work, not bring everyone along for a mini holiday thus adding to the expenses for parents.--particularly when one of her kids actively interupted during competition time for attention....not to mention the boyfriend...get a room!!!....in our opinion, she is there to work. playtime should be covered by them, not skating parents.

Needless to say, she was dumped. I'm happy to pay for work tendered. I won't pay for extra rooms. I won't pay 44.00 when she saunters in just prior to the skate. I am a parent, not a coach. I am usually so nervous myself I haven't the skills to make my little one calm. That is what I'm paying my "pro" for. She didn't do the job,so we found someone who will.

Now the one we have does charge missed lessons [she has high level athletes who get shorted their lessons] but she only charges a 20.00 fee per discipline, and she divides the missed lesson rate, and her hotel fee among all skaters there that day...BTW, we've never seen her husband....and we're happy to pay these fees,because the difference is that she presents herself as a professional, and without even asking, provides receipts to every parent so they see what they've paid for in terms of travel, etc....

and she doesn't go to the most expensive hotel either, and then complain in the hopes of getting a free room or discount after the fact. [unlike our previous --who was sometimes successful, and then they used it on personal time]

So, my point here is that if a coach is expecting to charge certain fees, they will have to act in a professional manner to get me to cough it up.
Professionalism is one thing, greed is another. Parents of athletes do not like to feel used. So please, if you're going to charge, remember that your image has a direct correlation to the number of complaints you may receive....

[backspin]

Speaking as a low-level coach, I'd have to say it's totally fair to charge for missed lessons while away at a competition. Most coaches in the business aren't big names, nor are they coaching big name skaters. They are paid hourly and are fully dependant on the skating lesson time. If they are at a competition without compensation for lost time they are losing money, and it is hardly fair to just expect that of them.

Being at a competition is *hardly* a vacation. Spending all day in a cold rink to watch your skater on the ice for 2 minutes.....of course not every coach does this, but most I know do. Sometimes they are there without the parents, so they are with the skater all the time.

I can also assure you there is a lot of other time that the coach puts in throughout the year that never gets charged for: listening to music, thinking up choreography, off ice talking about technique or costumes or warming up, etc. I've done things like take my skaters to a ballroom dance school to watch the dancers practice, to get a feel for the character of the dances (I coach ice dance), and take them to dance performances. There have even been test sessions that I didn't charge a fee for my time, when someone failed a dance & I felt bad for them. If a session goes long, my skaters *often* get more than a 30 minute lesson & I usually don't ask for more.

You may say, "well, that's all part of your job as a coach". That is true, but it's also all time out of my life that I'm devoting to my students. I do it because I love it, which is the case with most coaches. But I wouldn't gripe about having to compensate a coach for lost lessons while at a comp.--IMO, that is part of their "expenses" to be there at all.

[Arsenette]

Do you remember the title and purpose of this thread? It's World and Olympic coaches.. I based most of my answers on that premise.. As for lower level coaches you can't possibly make a living off of that realistically. Higher level coaches can and do. We are arguing very different points and if my lower level coach charged me for missed time with someone else - I'd fire them. It's my opinion so don't freak out. I just don't see how someone in that level could live off of someone like that. The sport is outrageously expensive as it is. I don't need to pay for someone else's life outside my own.

[love2sk8]

Originally posted by what?meworry?

rare (and greedy, i feel) coaches have charged their competitors for the income missed by traveling with them on competitions. but it's been a while since i've heard a complaint about any coach actually doing that.


I have never heard of a coach who does not charge for missed income...It seems only normal that one would, so as not to lose money that they could be earning while coaching at home!

[backspin]

As for lower level coaches
you can't possibly make a living off of that realistically

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I just wanted to point out that plenty of low level coaches make a fine living from coaching. Maybe we're defining "low level" differently.

**backing out, will be quiet now.**

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Arsenette
As for lower level coaches you can't possibly make a living off of that realistically.
You are living in the wrong area if you really believe this is an accurate statement for all coaches who teach low level lessons. If you are a coach with good training, have passed all your tests, & have some competitive experience, you can easily make a decent living where I live. We have people who I wouldn't even consider coaches (due to test level, lack of experience/education, other credentials) who are fully booked for lessons too. Let the buyer beware.

[Lee]

Can't make a decent living at it in most rural areas of Canada -- unless you want to coach at 3 or 4 different clubs, which is almost impossible because rural clubs mostly have after-school ice.

My daughter is coaching 4 evenings/week at her home club and one morning at a club 20 miles away and isn't even close to making enough to be able to support herself.

If you live in a city, or work for a large club, you 'might' be able to make a living at it, but most coaches I know have a different primary job during the day -- coaching is their part-time gig. If a competition requires a skater to compete on a regular weekday, it's not uncommon for some of the these coaches to find another coach (already known to the skater) to 'cover' for them because the cost of giving up a full day's salary is just too much.

There were many times over the years where BD competed without a coach or with someone else watching over her -- it certainly allowed her to 'grow' in that she wasn't completely dependent on one person being their for her all the time.

The experiences coaches will have and their ability to earn a decent living will vary greatly, depending on where they live. No blanket statements can be made -- too many variables.

[blue111moon]

Several of the coaches of "lower level" or unknown (as in final-six) skaters at Nationals have told me that they don't charge much beyond basic expenses (travel, hotel, food - and not all of them charge for food as they say they'd have to eat at home and don't charge the skaters for meals there) because of the advertising value the experience is worth. In a lot of smaller rinks, just being able to say you are the coach of a National competitor can be enough to bring other skaters flocking to your door.

On the flip side, I was told by the parent of a top-10 senior skater that the coach's fee for a week at Nationals was $2000 plus expenses.

[skateflo]

Look at it this way...some people go to a lawyer who charges $200/hr and some go to a lawyer who charges $450/hr and most work is done by their paralegals, etc. The work of one may or may not be of the same quality of the higher priced person. Same with physicians/surgeons and other specialists. The elite coach also brings with them experience, a way of thinking/observing/evaluating their skater on the spot, knows their student and what makes them tick to hopefully bring forth the best the skater can do at the moment, and knows the world of competitive skating at the international level - it is different!
Remember also that in it not unusal for the elite coaches to have a much smaller stable of skaters to spread out the cost/income while they focus on their elite skater.
Think about the driving that Sarah Hughes' coach did every day to NJ with Sarah - who paid for the gas, tolls, time for that?

Prices do vary with the level of the coach, their nationality (rightly or wrongly, some people think that Russian coaches here in the USA will automatically bring their skater better results and are willing to pay some of their prices.)

It is so american that people seem to think that paying more will guarantee better results - not always.

[musicman]

This thread was originally about World and Olympic coaches. I was wondering if these coaches receive a stipend from the uSFSA to help defray the cost of these expensive competitions. When there was the PODIUM 2002 funding did these coaches receive funding from the USFSA or did they have to rely solely on the income from their students

[ChicaTica]

Originally posted by musicman
This thread was originally about World and Olympic coaches. I was wondering if these coaches receive a stipend from the uSFSA to help defray the cost of these expensive competitions. When there was the PODIUM 2002 funding did these coaches receive funding from the USFSA or did they have to rely solely on the income from their students

No, coaches--not even World-class coaches--do not receive any type of financial support directly from the USFSA. Usually, a skater applying for USFSA support includes an itemized list of expenses, so the skater could highlight particularly high coaching expense incurred while away at a competition. Thus, the USFSA could give aid to the skater to help the skater pay the coach. I believe that direct funding is limited to skaters or to clubs holding qualifying competitions. Maybe there are other areas of funding of which I am not aware, b/c my answer is from the perspective of a formerly competitive skater. I have no idea if the PSA (which is not officially affiliated with the USFSA and is not a governing body) has a stipend program supporting coaches for the expenses the incur or coaching fee lost while taking skaters to competitions.

As a side note, I believe that most of the established World and Olympic coaches have skating schools which have been set up as businesses. Thus, the high-profile director of the school gets a percentage of the earnings of her staff which allows her to generate an income even when she is away with students at competitions. Some skating professionals don't like this. I know of some famous coaches who travel so much that their low-profile sidekick is actually doing most of the day-to-day teaching and their talent is producing a significant number of successful skaters. Some of these low-profile coaches are happy to be the unseen muscle behind the might, but as one would expect this could also cause building tension that results in a coaching split. Usually these arrangements are made to sound more equitable by calling the coaches part of the (dream) "team." I think the premise behind the director getting this percentage is that the World-class coach's reputation is bringing in the the skaters that are supporting the skating school.

Furthermore, I know that some World-class coaches get a cut of their students' prize money or money they earn for ice shows (I have heard plenty of skaters complain about this and know of some people who left their coaches over this issue). Could you imagine how painful it must be to take from a coach from the time you were 5 and at 20 you achieve success then money tears you apart. Well, I assume each skater and coach works out an agreement that is mutually satisfactory.

I hope the above is helpful, musicman.

Over and out,
ChicaTica

[musicman]

Thank you, that answers my question.

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by backspin
Sorry, I know it's off topic, but I just wanted to point out that plenty of low level coaches make a fine living from coaching. Maybe we're defining "low level" differently.

**backing out, will be quiet now.**

I know this is OT, but before you back completely out, I just want to say ITA. :) How many World and Olympics coaches are out there? A handful, mabe two. Not everyone is Mr. Nicks, but it is totally possible to make a fine living teaching skating at a "lower" level, which most of the coaches are. You get into a rink with a strong program (either ISI or USFSA) and you can have more students than you can possibly handle. Factor in private lessons and a standard rate for each group lesson taught and you've got a nice gig. Of course there are always those coaches that refuse to teach group lessons and to them I say you are a dingdong, there is your good base to get more privates.

[Poohsk8s2]

We have several elite level coaches at our rink in Simsbury. I know of one coach that charges for lost income when travelling with her skater at the rate of $500/day. This does not include the cost of travel, meals and hotel.

I think that many points in this thread are valid, but IMHO I think a coach should factor into her hourly costs what she might lose when travelling to various competitions and spread the cost throughout the year. Most elite level coaches do not attend lower level competitions, but send an assistant instead, so averaging the lost income should not be that difficult. I don't think that a skater should bear the brunt of the coach's lost income, especially if their success draws more business to said coach. A coach's success can only be measured by the success of their skater, and that is where I feel the coach is being greedy. More business, more money, and someone else paying to market you.

Also, many skater's do enter contracts with the coach to pay as much as 25% of show fees to a coach for x number of years regardless of whether they remain with the coach or not. These contracts are usually signed when the team envelopes (if any) don't meet all of the coach's expenses.

The bottom line is that few people realize just how expensive skating has become. The range of hourly fees for our coaches range from $40 - $165/hr. When you hit those top numbers, imagine how difficult it would be to pay for lost income. So, SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL SKATER!