Do L/T have a future??

[Jack]

Since we were "hopelessly" off topic in the contest thread, I thought perhaps this topic merited it's own thread.

Face it, things are a little iffy in the world of Peter and Naomi. First they are injured, then they aren't training, then thier coach ditches them... what next?? I, for one, pine for the old days of L/T when they were stunning and exciting... remeber thier FD choreographed by Chris Dean? Brilliance. I think the reason I am always so hard on them in my mind is because they have shown us jsut how great they can be. Yet they continue to frusturate us every year with inadequaecy and under-training. Are they trying to give me ulcers? Honestly!!!

My plea: For the love of Buddha, Peter and Naomi.... PLEASE get your act together and be great... or get lost. I don't want to see a sub-par L/T. It's brillance or nuttin'

[speedy]

You can question training habits or choices in coaching, but this team has been plagued by injury and illness for the last 2 seasons...from shin splints to tendonitis to food poisoning, even kidney stones. I'm sure they would much rather have been healthy the last 2 years so they could have skated their Grand Prix events, but much of their situation has been out of their control. As far as Tarasova, it doesn't sound like she was providing much for them anyway except for her name...Morozov was doing all the work and still is. I'm sure they will regain their "brilliance" if they can just get healthy. I for one hope they don't "get lost"...even a subpar L&T is more fun to watch than most of our other American teams. And I'm sure B&A would much rather have them healthy too so they can all be at the top of their game when facing off at Nats and Worlds. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be possible right now.

[SkateGuard]

The problem isn't L&T's training...it's the teams behind them. If Joseph/Butler, Chalom/Gates, and Silverstein/Pekarek hadn't split up; L&T most likely would not be four-time national champions. These teams were so close.....

Now with Belbin/Agosto's sucess internationally (remember, they are the Junior World champs as well), L&T are in trouble. B&A have an incredibly complex program in terms of choreography and holds; two things that were lacking in L&T's free last year. Add in the two G&P's, the two junior teams, and Nussear/Gates, and we have a very competitive second teir, which will improve this group of skaters.

Erin
(who hopes that a second place finish at Nationals will not discourage L&T)

[iceskater2]

My 2 cents. I paid real real good money to go to the Olympics this year. I had front row seats for the freedance. While I admit it was
Annisina & Peizerat that I wanted to win the Gold. It was L & T who blew me away. They were the highlight of the competition for me. It was L & T who received the standing O and for whom I threw the only flowers I had. When I think back to my day at the Olympics It is L & T program that I can recall so viviidly.

I can not wait to see what they come up with this coming year. I have not lost any hope for them in the future.

[speedy]

Surviving health issues, coaching pressures, off-ice problems and injuries IS part of the sport and why several of those teams you mentioned are no longer together. L&T have survived several rough times up to this point and saying they wouldn't have won those 4 national titles is complete speculation. Close only counts in horseshoes, etc...and already espewing sympathy for their second-place finish at the upcoming Nats is a bit premature.

[loveskating]

I agree that Belbin and Agusto are really great...but I also love L&T, and so I hope they stick around. I think internationally they are underrated, but they are not so consistent, I guess, have to admit that. Still, when they are on and skate well, they just blow me away totally.

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by speedy
Surviving health issues, coaching pressures, off-ice problems and injuries IS part of the sport and why several of those teams you mentioned are no longer together. L&T have survived several rough times up to this point and saying they wouldn't have won those 4 national titles is complete speculation. Close only counts in horseshoes, etc...and already espewing sympathy for their second-place finish at the upcoming Nats is a bit premature.

Yes, speedy, you are right...their longevity is a huge key to L&T's success. But they seem stuck in that 8-9-10 spot in the world rankings, even though they improve so much every year.

My words, BTW, was that they "most likely" would not have won the national titles without the splits. I believe they deserved and earned every single title, but they benefitted from a lack of competition nationally. Look at the results:

1999: Easily beat C&G, who were dealing with a coaching/choreographer change as well as Gates' pneumonia. This was the year that the top junior team had 5.9's in the free dance, while L&T got mostly 5.7s and 5.8s.

2000: Beat Sil/Pek, who were still skating like the strong, talented juniors they were rather than an adult senior team. (Which is ok, considering they were only 16 and 18!)

2001: Easily beat B&A, who were still competing as juniors internationally.

2002: Beat B&A, but had two 5.4's in the free dance. (B&A got straight 5.7s.) I thought L&T were capable of so much more choreographically...

Now, I hope that Morozov has worked his magic with this team. Personally, I think it's going to be close between B&A and L&T, which lead to my ending comment you took too literally. I think L&T will easily win compulsories, while B&A will win the OD (their sbs footwork is unmatched internationally, IMO). Whoever wins the free will win the title. And I wouldn't be surprised with a 5-4 split. That's why I don't want L&T to be discouraged; they may lose out by a nail. (I also worry about B&A for the same reason, BTW--you said it yourself speedy, close is only in horseshoes!)

Now I am a huge B&A fan, but I want L&T to stay in the game and continue to improve. The competition between these two teams will hopefully push US ice dance into the international spotlight--and make both of these teams better.

Erin

[icesupport]

Well said, Erin. Competition does drive everyone to be better and when you look at who L&T had pushing them over the last few years, L&T were the better overall skaters (although last year was very close.)

This year, however, if L & T skate, I feel that B&A will edge them out (pun intended.) I certainly hope they do skate as I truly believe this will be their last year and they want to skate at Worlds in their home country. Do they have a future in skating? Yes, but not in competitions as their training ethic has never been good. I see them on a tour.

IMO, B&A will be 1st, L&T 2nd (if they skate). After that, it's a toss-up.
I saw Greg/Pet and Nus/Gates live at Skate Canada. As a former skater and former dance coach, neither impressed me. I'm sure both will have improved by Nationals but in both cases, their programs did not flow and their programs were too simple. N/G had good lifts, but very little face-to-face, arm hold/changes and hardly any difficult footwork. Good speed but they are all about side-by-side skating. Greg/Pet are nice to look at, but have not really improved from '02 Nationals IMO. They seem to have coaching issues, at least they did at Skate Canada (they were seen arguing with the coach several times by many officials), and it showed on the ice. As for N/G, I wouldn't be surprised to see this team split after the season: he's really short and the look just isn't there. And wasn't that (height) a major problem for Gates previously on the int'l circuit?

After those two, I don't know who's left. I did see Gib/Pek at a local show at the Gardens on New Years Day when I was visiting my sister in D.C. Michael Weiss skated also and did his usual crowd pleasing performance. I only saw Gib/Pek OD but I must say, it was better than Gre/Pet and N/G's OD. I don't know if they will be placed very high since this is their first year but this team was doing all the difficulty that the other two didn't -- footwork, arm hold changes, face-to-face skating w/speed and expression. Liz Coates and Genrikh Strtenski has done a fantastic job with this team. And they looked amazingly together for a new team, especially in the SBS sequence in the OD. I had heard they did not do so well at Mids so I was very pleased to see them looking like a top team. Pekarek is an amazing ice dancer and Gibbons, while new, is a good skater and is going to be very good. This team could, and I repeat could, be a huge surprise at nationals, especially given the way judging in dance has happened this year .....you know, shake-up the standings???

It will be fun to watch Nationals and see who handles the pressure best.

[Impromptu]

Originally posted by icesupport

IMO, B&A will be 1st, L&T 2nd (if they skate). After that, it's a toss-up.
I saw Greg/Pet and Nus/Gates live at Skate Canada. As a former skater and former dance coach, neither impressed me.


Nussear and Gates did not compete at Skate Canada.

[icesupport]

Impromptu:

You're so right. Meant to say "Skate America and Canada" as I attended both. Sorry.

[Mazurka Girl]

I've seen Gibbons/Pekarek FD & it has quite a bit of difficulty in it. The lifts look smooth & strong & she seems fearless to do them. They have good speed & power, & her expression is very good during the whole dance. I would expect her twizzles & timing will continue to improve at the rate they are progressing & I am looking forward to the continued development of this team. If that's what you get after one year's work together, I'm really interested to see how they'll look 2-3 yrs from now if they keep developing at this pace. :)

[roogu]

Didn't they also have that crash with the Albanians in 2000 that left one of them in the hospital for a while?

[Jack]

N/G WON'T be around next year and I don't understand all this hype and excitement about Justin and his girfriend. They are not going to factor into the medals, or even the top 6. Justin is amazing, but his parnter is brand-spanking new to ice dancing. They just aren't that great yet.

[deanna]

Jack,

Why do you say that N & G won't be together next season with so much certaintly? Come on, spill the beans!

[legjumper]

Originally posted by icesupport

I only saw Gib/Pek OD but I must say, it was better than Gre/Pet and N/G's OD. I don't know if they will be placed very high since this is their first year but this team was doing all the difficulty that the other two didn't -- footwork, arm hold changes, face-to-face skating w/speed and expression.

Excuse me while I (politely) laugh. I got a tape of Gib/Pek's Mids FD, and it is thoroughly clear that this team is not yet ready for the big-time, primarily because Hilary Gibbons is not currently a very good ice dancer. Gutsy and determined and admirable, yes--but a really good ice dancer? No. I think the choreography is good for such a new and unproven team, but the reality is that Hilary has next to no experience in ice dancing, and it shows. Her posture is about as good as Shae-Lynn Bourne's, and her edges are weak. Plus, she always seems to be hanging on to Justin like a vice-grip. IMO, anyone who thinks this team is superior to either Gregory/Petukhov OR Nussear/Gates is probably only watching Justin. Greg/Pet and Nus/Gates both are more equally matched and more experienced teams, and they should and will be rewarded for that.

That said, Justin Pekarek is still wonderfully amazing and effortlessly capable. I'm glad to see him back. :)

This team could, and I repeat could, be a huge surprise at nationals, especially given the way judging in dance has happened this year .....you know, shake-up the standings???

I don't see Gibbons/Pekarek higher than fifth in a best-case scenario.


It will be fun to watch Nationals and see who handles the pressure best.
ITA. :)

[Níniel]

Originally posted by roogu
Didn't they also have that crash with the Albanians in 2000 that left one of them in the hospital for a while?



Not with the Albanians but with the Bulgarians (Albena & Maxim) and Albena was badly hurt.

[DancerFan]

I think regardless of how they skate, (which I hope will be exquisitely!), Naomi & Peter will be 2nd. The US judges made their minds up mid-way through the GP season that barring total catastrophe, Tanith & Ben would be crowned champions come January. Yes, I have heard this from several reliable sources. I do hope N&P show up, and I hope their new material is fabulous, but they will have to be SO MUCH better than T&B to win - period.

Jack, I'm interested in what you say about Emilie & Mat, because I have heard from several judges and other coaches that they were very weak at Easterns, and won strictly on their individual prior reputations. Their FD is ridiculously repetitive, and apparently he is just horrendous to deal with. I'm sure they will be held up because of who they are, but I doubt we'll see them in the future.

As for GoldieLocks & Denis, they will be third because no one is ready to seriously challenge. Their material is OK now that they have all the illegalities taken care of, but I hear all is not paradise in honeymoon-land, and she is still so far behind him in skill or expertise.

I am interested to see Justin & Hilary and Loren & David, because I've heard such great things about both teams. And, undoubtedly the most under-ranked, overlooked Sr. dance team of the past few years: Rob & Kim will again get screwed, although they will very likely have the 2nd best FD (and 3rd best OD!) of the entire event!!!:roll:

[jss]

think regardless of how they skate, (which I hope will be exquisitely!), Naomi & Peter will be 2nd. The US judges made their minds up mid-way through the GP season that barring total catastrophe, Tanith & Ben would be crowned champions come January. Yes, I have heard this from several reliable sources. I do hope N&P show up, and I hope their new material is fabulous, but they will have to be SO MUCH better than T&B to win - period.

This is one reason why people don't think of ice dancing as a real sport, and I have to say that I sometimes agree.

I honestly would like L&T to win, but whoever is really the best should win. Ultimatley I am just happy that I will get to watch both L&T and B&A live!!!

[copythat]

C'mon Jack, tell us why Nussear/Gates won't be around next year? Might it be that word is already out about her new Russian partner? It is on the East Coast at rinks where dancers train. Because of this, I have to believe that N/G won't be rewarded at all at Nationals given what seems to be a "very strong rumor" re: her new partner, DB.

Oh, and what Icesupport said about the Jan. 1 show at the Gardens Icehouse in MD re: Gib/Pek is all true. They looked very much together and improved (especially her) and will be a team to watch at nationals. And Legjumper, the difference in Gib/Pek skating of what you are looking at on a tape from Mids (early Nov.) and now (Jan. 4) is like night and day. Again, I may be naive, but this team will be recognised at nationals.

Lisa

[Trillian]

Originally posted by copythat
Because of this, I have to believe that N/G won't be rewarded at all at Nationals given what seems to be a "very strong rumor" re: her new partner, DB.

Why do people bother speaking in some pseudo-code when their words give away every detail of a rumor? :roll:

And, incidentally, the key word at this point is "rumor." I have heard some rumblings as far as N&G are concerned but there was no "DB" involved at that point. Perhaps something has changed, but there's no guaruntee until the change is actually made. I've also heard that another prominent U.S. dance team is already planning to split for personal reasons at the end of this season, and I haven't heard anyone playing down their chances yet. (And no, I'm not naming any names; I don't consider it appropriate to discuss rumors in detail unless I can cite specific sources or have been given the okay to discuss things publicly.)

Frankly, I think the placements at nationals are going to reflect international results a great deal, and that in itself will help Nussear & Gates (as well as Gregory & Petukhov, Goodwin & Obzansky, Galler-Rabinowitz & Mitchell, and a few teams at the junior level) enormously. As I haven't seen N&G skate together, I can't comment on whether the results will be correct, but from what I've seen the whining of fans tends to be just that: whining. The results are questionable at times, but they're very rarely blatantly unfair. Wherever the teams end up at nationals, there will probably be a very reasonable argument to support the results.

[DancerFan]

Well, since neither Emilie or Mat is going to come on these boards and say, "it's true, we hate each other"; and since neither is going to allow anyone else to come here and say on their behalf, "please post that Mat has an enormous ego and treats me poorly, and I have a new partner lined up" - I think fairly obvious facts to the casual observer, though perhaps speculation at this moment in time, are fair game.

Also, who's to say US results based on international results are fair? We all know what happens internationally, where Russian coaches can slip "little cash rewards" in "little white envelopes" to certain judges and totally sway the results. As I mentioned in my above post, Rob and Kim get screwed every time since their coach isn't powerful and they don't have the support of their federation, so how can we judge their international results to be fair? And forget fairness on the JGP circuit, where Alexander Gorshkov is often judging, coaching, and refereeing! Or if he isn't judging the particular event his skaters are competing in, do you really think that poor little Russian, German, Ukraine, or Israeli judge is going to go against the almighty Gorshkov's wishes??? International results are usually a WHOLE lot more corrupt and blatantly unfair than any US event has ever been!

On the whole, US judges try really hard to judge fairly and they truly have the knowledge to know the difference. With few exceptions, like this year being set to reward Tanith & Ben for their outstanding season so far no matter what, the fact that both Igor and Sandy are enormously persuasive and work the political angle like no other, and a few regional biases which need not be named, they will really try to judge fairly.

[leepn]

Wow DancerFan you must be feeling pretty nasty tonight!!! I don't normally post here but it seems to you everyone is getting screwed, breaking up, not prepared, not good enough, and the list goes on and on. Oh I forgot, Igor and Sandy are the only coaches in the U.S. to push for their skaters. I would like you to say that to Barrett, Tom, Gendrigh(sp), Robbie Kane, and the list goes on and on. I just don't think those facts to be true.
I think Peter and Naomi will show up at Nationals and will have a good skate. I think skating all summer in shows gives them advantages some of these teams don't have. They are capable of so much and have a new coach and new types of programs. Ben and Tanith are a good team and in the future will be good contenders for our championship gold. But look around the world and see who the countries ice dance champions are and I don't think they are ready for this yet. As far as Emilie and Matt breaking up, well only they know. Not a nice thing for you to say unless you know this for sure. For you to say that Matt has a very big ego and they hate each other is also very nasty. Isn't this their first year? I can't believe emotions like hate come so fast. I hope Matt doesn't read these boards or anyone of these people you are trashing. Thinking that one might be partnerless with less than a week till Nationals, I would say you have an agenda!! As far as Goldielocks and Denis goes I saw them in Denver just a couple of weeks ago and they seem to be very much a Mr. & Mrs. still. Again, not nice. Kissing, hugging and holding hands when they are in a parking lot isn't for anyone but them. She has improved incredably since SC and holds her own quite well now. Oh by the way, her name is Melissa which you seem to have forgotten. Kim and Rob are good skaters as well. I will not comment on them since I only saw a part of their freedance from NHK but it did look a tad slow to me. But sometimes TV can be deceiving and I am sure has improved.
So why don't we wish all good luck and hope that the best skate wins. And a little kindness won't hurt you.

[Jack]

DancerFan, you are my new best friend. ;)

Yes, Kim and Rob ARE going to get screwed again, they do every year. I love that team, but unfortunately Kim is jsut so much stronger than Rob and I think that is what has held them back every year. But in my book, they should have won everything just for Kim's smile and spunk alone... :D

Leepn, calm down, I really don't see any agenda, just pretty honest observations. When are skating fans going to realize that people in skating are not always nice? I'm sorry but it's true. Certain people have HUGE egos... egos taller than them... well, then again, that's not too hard. Partners sometimes treat eachother pretty crappy. It's an unfrotuante reality.

As for N/G not being around next year, isn't it totally obvious? I have no idea what this whole russian rumor is about, I think it's bogus. Matt will have a great carrer coaching, his students love him. And imo, thier free dance bombs and they were help up at Easterns. As much as I can't stand teams from Boston, I have to admit that Loren and David really deserved to win at Easterns. (and yes, I freely admit to having a problem with teams who stroke around "prettily" and call it difficulty) But G/R-M actually have a great free this year, they have added a lot of difficulty and they are performing it well. grrrrr.... I have waaaay more fun hatin' on teams from Boston and this year I actualy like them.. darnit.

But anyway, do L/T have a future?? heck no.

[Jim D]

This thread continues to stray well off topic. ... Also, the barely concealed rumor mongering, about another couple, is a bit tiresome. … Let's do try to keep to the original topic. ~~~ Jim D

[Polish]

Originally posted by DancerFan


And forget fairness on the JGP circuit, where Alexander Gorshkov is often judging, coaching, and refereeing! Or if he isn't judging the particular event his skaters are competing in, do you really think that poor little Russian, German, Ukraine, or Israeli judge is going to go against the almighty Gorshkov's wishes???

There are two Alexander Gorshkovs. One is the Olympic Champion turned ISU Ref. Older man, probably pushing 70 years old. The other Alexander Gorshkov is the coach and choroegrapher of Denkova & Stavisky and Domnina & Shabalin (he also coached R&B too). He is quite young and looks a bit like a chunky Morozov.

A lot of people get think that Gorshkov the Ref is the same guy who coaches D&S, Domina & Shabalin, etc. but they are two different people.

[Anjelica]

Oh Jack your constant negative posts about L&T lead me to believe you have some agendas and issues of your own. Since you have declared yourself the official authority on L&T's future I would like to know your sources and on what exactly do you base your opinions. Leepn - well said, what a great post you made! I couldn't agree with you more.

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by Polish
There are two Alexander Gorshkovs. One is the Olympic Champion turned ISU Ref. Older man, probably pushing 70 years old. The other Alexander Gorshkov is the coach and choroegrapher of Denkova & Stavisky and Domnina & Shabalin (he also coached R&B too).

Actually, I was speaking about Alexander Gorshkov the corrupt ref and judge and ISU chair who also coaches the German Jr team (who got held up all season) and some other Russians. Alexei Gorshkov is the one who coaches the Bulgarians. Same last name, different first.

As for being nasty, I wasn't trying to be, and I said nothing about teams not being prepared. I mentioned teams getting screwed, yes, and I think Naomi & Peter will be one of them, or was that not clear? "Getting screwed" is certainly no fault of these poor skaters who work their butts off year after year. Nor did I say Igor and Sandy are the only coaches who push their skaters, I said no one in this country plays the political game like they do - there is a difference! As for the N/G rumor, I didn't start that, I merely commented on what one sees when one watches them compete. Every judge, coach, skater, parent, and official who attended any one of their events this year saw the same attitude from Mat, and if reading this board would upset him, perhaps he shouldn't behave that way in public!

Anyway, this topic is supposed to be about L/T's future, and as one of their greatest fans for years, I certainly hope so! I just don't like everyone's predisposed notion that B/A already are and will be better, perpetuated by hard work on Igor's part to influence every judge in the US.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Anjelica
Oh Jack your constant negative posts about L&T lead me to believe you have some agendas and issues of your own. Since you have declared yourself the official authority on L&T's future I would like to know your sources and on what exactly do you base your opinions.

Why, yes, thank you for finally acknowledging me for what I truely am; The official authority on L/T, but why stop there? I am actually the authority on all things skating, heck, I'm the authority on all things big and small... yes, that's right people, God herself posts here on this humble skating board. All bow down before me and recognize the genius who stands before you!


sheeeeeeeeesh.... Angelica, did you even bother to read and understand what my first post was saying? Obviously not, so let me restate it. L/T are capable of being an amazing team... a bring me to my feet-holding my breath-wildly applauding kind of amazing. But season after season, they continue to fall short of what they could and should have accomplished. The last time I felt like they truely were at their best was when Dean did thier FD. They were awesome, so smooth, together, like mercury. It was beautiful to watch.

The only agenda that I might have here is that Naomi or Peter hear that some nasty board gremlin is saying that they don't think L/T will be around much longer and that will motivate them to work harder. And that really isn't my intention, I am simply venting frusturation and wondering if anyone else feels the same.

Peter and Naomi... hear me now, the god of all things official in your worlds.... TRAIN HARD AND GO YE FORTH AND KICK YE SOME BOOTY SO THAT I CAN STOP BEING ANNOYED WITH THEE.

[Jim D]

Lest this thread deteriorate even further, it is now closed.~~ Jim D