If Michelle, Irina, Sasha had skated their long programs clean...

[rack]

at the Olympics, what order do you think they would have been? What order you think think they should have been?

[uyeahu]

I think it would have been Michelle, Irina, Sarah if they'd skated clean, but I'm not a big Irina fan and could see it being Michelle, Sarah, Irina.

[Lark]

If totally clean, I think it would have been Michelle, Irina, Sarah and Sasha.
I put Irina ahead of Sarah not out of preference, but it was obvios the judges were smoking something. If I recall correctly, Irina got several 5.8's and 5.9's for arguably her worst, weakest performance in years.

[Ellyn]

"Clean" with what jump content? Exactly what they actually attempted but with no errors? Including triple-triples that have been attempted in the past with low percentages or only those that they had landed with high percentages? What about speed/centering/extension/number of revolutions on the spins? Security and speed of the steps and stroking? Overall level of presentation and "attack"?

I think we saw in 1998 between U.S. Nationals and Olympics that the same programs skated with the same jump content would not necessarily produce the same results when skated on different occasions with different levels of confidence and different judging panels. And once you start to factor in possible differences in jump content, it becomes even more complicated. Too many Ifs.

[Dustin]

If the following things happened:
Sarah skated like she did with 2 3/3s
Sasha was clean with the 3/3
Michelle was clean with the 3/3
Irina was clean with a 3/3 (not sure if she was even going to attempt one?)

I think I would have ended up:
1. Michelle
2. Irina
3. Sasha
4. Sarah

This is based on the fact of SP results when skaters were clean, Sarah with more difficult jump content (lutz/loop). Skating order may have played a role in scores, but I don't think it would have changed the results.

[AxelAnnie22]

Although I agree with Ellyn, there are too many if's.......IF we took Dustin's scenario, I would have placed them:

Irina
Sasha
Michelle
Sarah

I think Irina's usual speed, attack, spins, etc., would have bested Michelle, even with a 3/3. Sasha's artistry, with a 3/3, her amazing spirals and spins, would have bested Michelle.

I think Sarah would outskate Michelle, but since she was in fourth after the SP., I would leave Michelle in 3rd.

[TAF2984]

Michelle
Irina
Tossup with Sasha and Sarah probably with Sasha edging her so I basically agree with Dustin.

I honestly can't see how anyone could think that MK would place third being clean. I mean I must be one of the few who saw the short I guess or the sport for the past few years.

I agree with this as well.

"I think we saw in 1998 between U.S. Nationals and Olympics that the same programs skated with the same jump content would not necessarily produce the same results when skated on different occasions with different levels of confidence and different judging panels. And once you start to factor in possible differences in jump content, it becomes even more complicated. Too many Ifs."

There's a lot more that goes into a program. MK at 98 US nationals was on nearly flawlessly with her music, her jumps were stronger even though they were the same ones done cleanly at 98 OG, faster spins, faster in general and was more emotionally into it.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by TAF2984

I honestly can't see how anyone could think that MK would place third being clean. I mean I must be one of the few who saw the short I guess or the sport for the past few years.

Did you really see the short? Even Michelle was surprised that she won. As to watching the sport for the last few years.....no you are not the only one who has been watching.

"I think we saw in 1998 between U.S. Nationals and Olympics that the same programs skated with the same jump content would not necessarily produce the same results when skated on different occasions with different levels of confidence and different judging panels. And once you start to factor in possible differences in jump content, it becomes even more complicated. Too many Ifs."

There's a lot more that goes into a program. MK at 98 US nationals was on nearly flawlessly with her music, her jumps were stronger even though they were the same ones done cleanly at 98 OG, faster spins, faster in general and was more emotionally into it.

I am not quite sure who said this, but I don't agree with the conclusion. What you saw at US NATS and the OLYS from Michelle and Tara (save for the splat in the SP) were the same programs skated, sure. However, at NATS, Michelle positively radiated from within. She did not have that kind of soul present in her skating at Nagano. Tara did. She was luminescent.......the same way Sarah was in SLC.

So, yes, they were the same programs, with the same content, but they were skated very differently. This, of course, supports Adrian's assertion that Michelle didn't (and perhaps couldn't) lay it down when it counted at the OLYS...twice. It is not that Michelle doesn't have it, it is just that she couldn't draw upon it when she needed it.

[TAF2984]

So because MK was surprised that she won means what? What does that have to do with how the judges mark? MK was surprise because 1) she didn't win a short against Irina in awhile. 2) I think she heard some of irina's marks for Required elements.


What you saw at US NATS and the OLYS from Michelle and Tara (save for the splat in the SP) were the same programs skated, sure. However, at NATS, Michelle positively radiated from within. She did not have that kind of soul present in her skating at Nagano. Tara did. She was luminescent.......the same way Sarah was in SLC.

MK was stronger in practically everything she did at US Nationals. She skated faster, spins faster, jumps stronger, and her presentation was more "on." MK did skate with some spark at 98 OG. It just wasn't on the level of US nationals, and it didn't help that she had to skate right after warm ups either. Now if MK had won those games with tara skating with all that spark and let's say instead of doing a triple loop triple loop, tara did a triple loop/double loop which probably would have been enough to change it then we would have an entire different story on how MK was able to draw from deep down.

Let's not forget that it was the jumps and speed that won Tara her OG title more than anything else not this luminescence you speak of which certainly didn't hurt but still Kwan had all 5.9s for presentation.

[rack]

Since I started this thread, I get to define "clean" (it never occurred to me that it wasn't self-explanatory).

Clean, within the context of this discussion, means all jumps were properly rotated and landed cleanly. It does not mean that intended triple/triples that became triple/doubles should be regarded as triple/triples.

I don't remember any of the skaters having problems with spins or footwork, but if they did, those too would now be "clean." However if a skater rotated seven times in a spin, "clean" does not mean she rotated eight times, even if in her heart of hearts she really meant to.

I hope I've clarified the issue.

[AxelAnnie22]

TAF -
The point is that Michelle DIDN'T skate at Nagano the way she did at NATS. The point isn't that she skated the same choreography with the same elements, it is that she didn't skate it the same way.

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
TAF -
The point is that Michelle DIDN'T skate at Nagano the way she did at NATS. The point isn't that she skated the same choreography with the same elements, it is that she didn't skate it the same way.

Ahh I Know that. I think I made that quite clear in my post along with how the elements were done better at natls

[cocanuts]

i think it would have been:
1.michelle
2.irina
3.sasha
4.sarah
irina almost won with mistakes over sarah, so that puts her ahead of sarah. michelle won short program and was the favorite so would have won. sasha got a few judges votes even with the fall so she would beat sarah.

[AxelAnnie22]

From Taf
Now if MK had won those games with tara skating with all that spark and let's say instead of doing a triple loop triple loop, tara did a triple loop/double loop which probably would have been enough to change it then we would have an entire different story on how MK was able to draw from deep down.

I guess I don't understand exactly what you mean.

Given your scenario, I don't think we would have been talking about Michelle "reaching deep down" even if she had won. It wasn't a reach-down performance. (NATS was, though)

Let's take SLC. Let's say that Sarah didn't land the two 3/3's and didn't skate with Magic. We can probably agree that Irina would have won. But, we wouldn't have been talking about a "reach down" performance with Irina. Irina didn't skate like we know she can skate. She would have won...even though.

All I am trying to say is that it is not only which and how many elements they do, but how each is executed.

[JDC1]

It would depend on their intended jump content but here goes -

Michelle - first since she clearly intended the 3t/3t
Sasha - she clearly intended the 3z/3t
Irina - not obvious she had any intention of trying a 3/3 (However if Irina had a clean 3/3 then put her in first)
Sarah - sorry but even with the "magic" and 2 3/3's Irina almost beat her and her scores weren't that high.

[Debbie S]

Oh, if only....

1. Michelle - Just remember 2000 and 2001 Worlds
2. Irina - Sarah probably would have deserved to have been placed ahead of her, but if Irina had landed a 3/3, given how she's been judged in the past, she would have been placed ahead
3. Sarah - had the advantage over Sasha in the judges' eyes b/c of the jumps and the fact that she'd been around longer, with the bronze from '01 Worlds
4. Sasha

[danibellerika]

1. Michelle - that was supposed to be HER competition.
2. Sasha - with an intended 3/3, she would have definately been second b/c even in the SP she stole an ordinal or two from Irina AND placed above Sarah and they both had more jump difficulty than Sasha, so if she did have the jump difficulty against a no 3/3 Irina, she could take it.
3. Sarah - even with 2 3/3s she barely won gold and some judges still put Sasha ahead, Michelle ahead and Irina ahead of her. 2 3/3s would have been enough to barely get her on the podium.
4. Irina - no intended 3/3. She could have still taken ordinals away from Hughes, but it wouldn't have been enough.

It wouldn't have suprised me if things had remained the way they were from the SP either being that the order that the top 4 skated was basically the same as the SP.

[Skatingsarah]

I would put them as follows if they had all skated to their abilities.

1-Michelle Kwan
2-Sasha Cohen
3-Irina Slutzskia
4-Sarah Hughes

I would also like the mention that that would be my overall results, I think that maybe Irina might have a edge over Sasha in the free skate because of her normally very powerful strong skating. I just find that the jump quality of most of the girl is very remarkable compared to Sarah. I'm not knocking down Sarah but I find that Michelle and Sasha have alot of flow and irina has so much height.

My 2 cents
Sarah

[loveskating]

Way too many "ifs" but just for the fun of it, if all skated planned programs, all elements clean:

At SLC:

SP: Irina, Sasha, Michelle

LP: Irina, Sasha, Sarah

In a clean skate by all, Kwan with only a 3/3 toe loop, would not have been in the running after the LPs.

At Nagano:
Kwan deserved to be first in the SP, her jumps were more powerful, covered more ice and got more height than Tara, so even with only a 3 toe loop vs. Tara's more difficult 3 flip, she could win the SP; plus her program was a masterpiece and Tara's was merely sufficient as a constructed program.

In the LP, however, Kwan did not have the technical difficulty Tara did. MK had no 3/3 at all, up against a 3/3 loop of high quality, and a 3/half loop/3 jump sequence. Also, Tara had the skate of her life as to presentation, plus she made few mistakes of even a minor nature. Additionally, Kwan hesitated at times, was slow at times.

At U.S. Nationals, Tara fell on her flip in the SP, so she was out of the running if Kwan skated clean in the LP, which she did, and with a lot of fire. Also, Tara made numerous small mistakes in her LP, although she stayed on her feet.

BTW, Tara could spin better than Kwan, considerably faster, more variation and equally as well centered. They both flutzed, Tara worse;

[RoseAugust]

Michelle
Irina
Sasha

[nits]

Originally posted by loveskating
Way too many "ifs" but just for the fun of it, if all skated planned programs, all elements clean:

In a clean skate by all, Kwan with only a 3/3 toe loop, would not have been in the running after the LPs.

At

It's a good thing you're not a judge loveskating, otherwise I think you'd be questioned after every competition! :D

A clean skate, including a 3/3 (no matter which) would've almost given Kwan the gold. Her overall quality of skating is better than both Sarah and Sasha. It would've been between Irina and Michelle for the gold.

[TAF2984]

I agree nits and BTW MK did not flutz in 98 US nationals long. MK's spins were also harder than Tara's. Kwan did 6 to Tara's 4. Kwan also had 2 flying spins, a reverse direction camel and more variation in position in her spins than Tara. Tara spinned faster in the long at Nagano around the same at nationals.

[Inside Edge]

What do you think would have happened if everything was the same for Sarah, Sasha, & Irena but Michelle completed the 3-Flip? (Still only a 3-2 toe)?

I think that Michelle would have placed 2nd in the long behind Sarah and thus won the gold. Given fair judging (I know that this is a streatch) this should have been enough for Michelle to pull ahead of Irena.

[Sk8tinglady2001]

I real wish dat all uh de skaters had skated clean at da damn olympics, uh course. ah' love all skaters. Especially Michelle, Sarah, Sasha, Irina, Angela, Jenny, Ann Patrice, LouAnn, Andrea, Amber, Ye Bin, Fumie, Yoshie, and Vikto'ia. WORD! ah' hope dat dey all do well dis season, uh course! Right on!8-)

[loveskating]

Originally posted by nits
It's a good thing you're not a judge loveskating, otherwise I think you'd be questioned after every competition! :D

A clean skate, including a 3/3 (no matter which) would've almost given Kwan the gold. Her overall quality of skating is better than both Sarah and Sasha. It would've been between Irina and Michelle for the gold.

I'd agree that Michelle's overall quality of skating is better than Sarah's...but Sarah has TWO very difficult 3/3s in her arsenal, which is going to make up for a lot of things...

I don't agree that Kwan's overall quality of skating exceeds that of Sasha or Irina, in general...although on any given day it might and in certain respects, viz different aspects for each, it might.

In the rules, there is a rating as to jump difficulty, and as to that, the 3/3 toe loop is the easiest combination...if everyone were clean and skated at their planned best, no mistakes (which assumes two 3/3s by Sarah, a 3 lutz/3 tl by Sasha and at least a 3 sal/3 loop by Irina, how could it be possible that a 3/3 toe loop would win?

Of course, its never like that...everyone doesn't skate spot on, so this is just silly fun...or is it something else?

[BringontheRain]

loveskating

You also have to take into consideration that Sarahs jumps are cheated ... so therefore she is not given as much credit , or atleast shouldn't be as the other 3.

Sasha and Sarah also have the worst flutzes of the 4 ...

IMO
You would have to see this done to judge accurately , like the presentation and spins etc ...

[loveskating]

Originally posted by BringontheRain
loveskating

You also have to take into consideration that Sarahs jumps are cheated ... so therefore she is not given as much credit , or atleast shouldn't be as the other 3.

Sasha and Sarah also have the worst flutzes of the 4 ...

IMO
You would have to see this done to judge accurately , like the presentation and spins etc ...

I'm very aware some of Sarah's jumps are underrotated...but STILL two very difficult 3/3s with loops count for a lot as to base points, especially in the LPs, and we all know it, so why not say so? IMHO, Sarah was very smart to do loop combos, because the standard among the ladies is at least almost a 1/4 underotation on the loop part, so its the basemarked combination.

I disagree: Sasha's flutz is no worse than Kwan's was in 1998...the very best Kwan ever achieves on the lutz is taking off from the flat, and she very often flutzes (so does Irina). Sorry, I know its "illegal" and "criiminal" to notice such things, but I can't help it, I'm not blind. Irina manages a true lutz far more often than Kwan does.

Sarah's flutz is absolutely horrible...also Jenny's -- from start to finish, just awful; Sasha's is very slight.

If anyone wants to see a true lutz, see A.P. McDonaugh; Maria; Viktoria Volchkova etc.

There are certain aspects of presentation that cannot be "judged" via the television...others can, and certainly, most technical issues, like seeing a flutz, can be seen from television, if not at once, then certainly with pause and stop action.

[kwanlover]

Michelle

Irina

Sarah

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by loveskating
I

I disagree: Sasha's flutz is no worse than Kwan's was in 1998...the very best Kwan ever achieves on the lutz is taking off from the flat, and she very often flutzes (so does Irina). Sorry, I know its "illegal" and "criiminal" to notice such things, but I can't help it, I'm not blind. Irina manages a true lutz far more often than Kwan does.

Sarah's flutz is absolutely horrible...also Jenny's -- from start to finish, just awful; Sasha's is very slight.

If anyone wants to see a true lutz, see A.P. McDonaugh; Maria; Viktoria Volchkova etc.



Sasha's flutz is not very slight. She is never even on an outside edge. She has never done a lutz before.She starts on an inside edge and it just gets deeper and deeper. I would say her flutz has gotten worse this year. Sarah's seems to have improved even though it's still bad, but at least Sasha doesn't cheat hers and she toes into the ice very well.

MK also has done several lutzes that were on the outside edge, or true lutzes, especially in the 98 season that you mentioned. A great example of this was her 98 nationals. MK at least on all her lutzes starts on an outside edge same with Irina and if it does switch over it's slight, it's at the last second, and its on the flat which is not an edge which would not get a deduction in the short. Both have flutzed before though, but it's usually from the flat. VV and AP also once in awhile go to the flat as well.

[irene2020]

It's a good thing you're not a judge loveskating, otherwise I think you'd be questioned after every competition!

8O 8O :?: :?:

Well, I think loveskating has written some of the fairest comments I have ever read on fans board. I have a lot of respect for his/her comments. Loveskating, please keep them coming :D And whoever posted that quote above, even if you don't agree with someone's opinion, there is no need to put the poster down. I don't think it will make your argument on skating more convincing.

A clean skate, including a 3/3 (no matter which) would've almost given Kwan the gold. Her overall quality of skating is better than both Sarah and Sasha. It would've been between Irina and Michelle for the gold.

The US judge at the Olympics said that michelle had problems connecting her elements at the Olympics. Skate America, several judges said that Sarah's musicality, interpretation, connection steps between jumps, ice coverage, etc were better than Michelle. I think all these count as overall quality of skating. In addition, I agree with a lot of things loveskating has said.

There are too many "ifs" in this question. IF all skated clean, how do we know that Irina wasn't planing to do two 3-3, but couldn't because she didn't feel comfortable after landing the 3lutz and the 3sal? And if she had done two 3-3, then she should definitely have won the gold IMO.

[melanieuk]

Not specifically referring to the Olympics, but more in general...

Technical Artistic

1st Irina 1st Michelle
2nd Michelle 2nd Sasha
3rd Sasha 3rd Sarah
4th Sarah 4th Irina

[loveskating]

Originally posted by TAF2984
Sasha's flutz is not very slight. She is never even on an outside edge. She has never done a lutz before.She starts on an inside edge and it just gets deeper and deeper. I would say her flutz has gotten worse this year. Sarah's seems to have improved even though it's still bad, but at least Sasha doesn't cheat hers and she toes into the ice very well.

MK also has done several lutzes that were on the outside edge, or true lutzes, especially in the 98 season that you mentioned. A great example of this was her 98 nationals. MK at least on all her lutzes starts on an outside edge same with Irina and if it does switch over it's slight, it's at the last second, and its on the flat which is not an edge which would not get a deduction in the short. Both have flutzed before though, but it's usually from the flat. VV and AP also once in awhile go to the flat as well.

I disagree...Sasha has a great entry to her lutz, its at the last second, just exactly like Kwan, that she flutzes, and its slight. And I don't care what Button et al. say...I know what a frigging lutz is, and even when they say Sasha didn't flutz, like they did recently, she did! Kwan managed the flat, at best, in 98, and I think she slightly flutzed myself, only when it comes to the lutz, Tara's flutz was FAR worse!

Kwan flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP at 2001 Worlds, even...doesn't mean I think she didn't deserve to win that competition, she truly did, but IMHO she flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP plain as day and the commentators did not say a word about it! In one sense, big deal, the lutz is hardly the only jump or element out there; but if one is talking specifically about the lutz, then its a big deal as to what a correct lutz is.

As for Volchkova flutzing at times, I hadn't noticed, but every skater makes mistakes on this or that element all the time, even those they have substantially mastered...

[inthezone]

Originally posted by loveskating
I disagree...Sasha has a great entry to her lutz, its at the last second, just exactly like Kwan, that she flutzes, and its slight. And I don't care what Button et al. say...I know what a frigging lutz is, and even when they say Sasha didn't flutz, like they did recently, she did! Kwan managed the flat, at best, in 98, and I think she slightly flutzed myself, only when it comes to the lutz, Tara's flutz was FAR worse!

Kwan flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP at 2001 Worlds, even...doesn't mean I think she didn't deserve to win that competition, she truly did, but IMHO she flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP plain as day and the commentators did not say a word about it! In one sense, big deal, the lutz is hardly the only jump or element out there; but if one is talking specifically about the lutz, then its a big deal as to what a correct lutz is.

As for Volchkova flutzing at times, I hadn't noticed, but every skater makes mistakes on this or that element all the time, even those they have substantially mastered...

And I disagree with you. Sasha may look like she has a nice entry to her lutz, but her flutz is as bad as Sarah's, if not worse. It is true that Sasha masks hers A LOT better than Sarah, but if you look closely, she barely even gets close to the outside edge, she flips over to the inside edge quite soon, and yes, the inside edge is slight (which I think is more because of her shallow edging), but then when she reaches to pick, the inside edge does get quite deep.

What's even worse is that her flutz and flip are almost identical in technique, which is very evident in the free skate, where the lutzs and flip are back to back. The fact that she skates, does a flip/flutz, goes to the other end of the rink, does a flip/flutz, and then again skates back to the other end of the rink to do another flip/flutz shows quite clearly that they are the same jump, with the same weird picking technique that she's acquired this season. And it doesn't help that the mohawk and three turn entries are of almost the same difficulty, and quite similar, when you compare to Tara who at least entered her flutz with a long entry, which believe it or not, does make it more difficult than a flip.

Now back to the original topic, the way I would mark the free skates if they had all skated perfectly would be like this (with Michelle, Sasha, and Irina all having 3-3s):

1) Kwan
2) Slutskaya
3) Hughes
4) Cohen

I believe that placement of jumps, 2 triple-triple combinations compared to one, and the basic ice coverage and edging THEN of Sasha compared to Sarah would have given Sasha a slight edge.

Those would have been my final placements too, as I had the short program like this:

1) Kwan
2) Cohen
3) Slutskaya
4) Hughes

[bunghodog]

maybe they should have a flutz and a lutz as a jump since they should get credit for a triple jump. I dont even think about if they would of skated clean, but you never know Sarah might have still one, even if michelle wouldent of fell or if Irina would of landed all her jumps, shoot if Sasha would not of fell, she could of won, and if Michelle would of won, she would of still got critisized for it being a "given" so its not even fun to think about it.

[Dustin]

Originally posted by inthezone
And I disagree with you. Sasha may look like she has a nice entry to her lutz, but her flutz is as bad as Sarah's, if not worse. It is true that Sasha masks hers A LOT better than Sarah, but if you look closely, she barely even gets close to the outside edge, she flips over to the inside edge quite soon, and yes, the inside edge is slight (which I think is more because of her shallow edging), but then when she reaches to pick, the inside edge does get quite deep.

What's even worse is that her flutz and flip are almost identical in technique, which is very evident in the free skate, where the lutzs and flip are back to back. The fact that she skates, does a flip/flutz, goes to the other end of the rink, does a flip/flutz, and then again skates back to the other end of the rink to do another flip/flutz shows quite clearly that they are the same jump, with the same weird picking technique that she's acquired this season. And it doesn't help that the mohawk and three turn entries are of almost the same difficulty, and quite similar, when you compare to Tara who at least entered her flutz with a long entry, which believe it or not, does make it more difficult than a flip.

Actually Sasha's flutz is no where near as bas as Sarah's. If you watch, Sarah's blade turns 1/4 of a rotation before she takes off. Sasha's maybe turns 1/8 or so. Sasha's edge goes from inside to outside back to inside before the takeoff. Sarah's is direct, held long, inside.

As to mowhawks and threeturns. A mowhawk into an attempted lutz is more difficult than a straight edge into an attempted lutz. If the backward edge is held too long it can be classified as telegraphing - not good. Just as steps, then a 3-turn, into a flip are harder than a regular flip, steps into a (f)lutz makes it more difficult.

[Skatingsarah]

I'm not going to post the whole post that everyone is talking about so I'll just let you know that is what I am commenting on.

I also disagree, I know that you are getting attacked here but I had to get my say in here since I WORSHIP Sasha.

Taking it from a judging point of view look at it this way. You see Sarah Hughes and see the huge wait in the take off and an enormous change of edge. The edge inside edge cannot be hidden no matter what angle you take it from. It is an obvious FLUTZ. Sasha Cohen on the other hand, I personally havent noticed it this but then again I could be wrong. This proves that it needs to be at least on slow motion because the edge is such a slight change and the last minute. So I ask you if you were a judge who would you give credit too!

Then on my personal point of view I think Sasha's jumps over all are alot better. Sarah has a nice air position but her landings are iffy. I mean that by sometimes there is an inside edge landing or she lands at the back of the blade. But Sasha on the other hand she so strong she may let have a few slip ups like everyother skater but she has such strength and a real fight in her in really defines her past ne other flutzer or weaker skater
-Sarah

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by irene2020
8O 8O :?: :?:
The US judge at the Olympics said that michelle had problems connecting her elements at the Olympics. Skate America, several judges said that Sarah's musicality, interpretation, connection steps between jumps, ice coverage, etc were better than Michelle. I think all these count as overall quality of skating. In addition, I agree with a lot of things loveskating has said.



Well I disagree with you. First of all if you are going to quote someone make sure you get the quotation right. The US Judge, Joe Inman, said MK and Irina both had a lack of connecting steps in their program not problem connecting their elements and yes there's a big difference. The Italy judge stated that as a reason for placing Irina in fourth along with the comment that irina doesn't feel the music as well as the Americans.

It was not several judges who said that at SA either. The Japanese judge, a substitute, said that Sarah should have placed ahead of Kwan at SA. Did you know at the GPF where MK fell and Sarah landed 7 triples and her triple triple combo that this was the same Japanese Judge that ended up giving MK a first place ordinal? You are completely failing to notice the many changes Kwan had in her long by then and stating that as a reason in later competitions which is completely wrong to do. as stated in the example of the GPF.

"I disagree...Sasha has a great entry to her lutz, its at the last second, just exactly like Kwan, that she flutzes, and its slight. And I don't care what Button et al. say...I know what a frigging lutz is, and even when they say Sasha didn't flutz, like they did recently, she did! Kwan managed the flat, at best, in 98, and I think she slightly flutzed myself, only when it comes to the lutz, Tara's flutz was FAR worse!"

I disagree Sasha is never on an outside edge. she is on a straight edge the whole way through and gets deeper to the inside edge before the take off. They(Dick, Peggy) just don't mention Sasha's flutz at all. Scott pointed out all the flaws in their jumps at the OG and didn't say a thing about Irina or Kwan.

Kwan did not manage just the flat at best in 98. Maybe you should take a look at MK's 98 nationals long especially the second lutz and you could clearly see it was as pure and as clean as they come or the 2nd lutzes kwan would do in almost all her longs which were definitely her better ones or the 98 OG exhibition skate she did which was a beauty.

"Kwan flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP at 2001 Worlds, even...doesn't mean I think she didn't deserve to win that competition, she truly did, but IMHO she flutzed and two footed her lutz in the SP plain as day and the commentators did not say a word about it! In one sense, big deal, the lutz is hardly the only jump or element out there; but if one is talking specifically about the lutz, then its a big deal as to what a correct lutz is."

Kwan definitely flutzed at the 01 worlds sp. I don't know about the two-foot it was very very close. The commentators didn't say a word? Yes they did! Peter pointed it out clearly! Also did you see the lutz combination MK landed at 2001 nationals short program? MK and irina have at least proven that can do a true lutz unlike both Sarah and Sasha even if it may not be consistent.

"As for Volchkova flutzing at times, I hadn't noticed, but every skater makes mistakes on this or that element all the time, even those they have substantially mastered..."

True and I am glad you pointed that out.

"It is true that Sasha masks hers A LOT better than Sarah, but if you look closely, she barely even gets close to the outside edge, she flips over to the inside edge quite soon, and yes, the inside edge is slight (which I think is more because of her shallow edging), but then when she reaches to pick, the inside edge does get quite deep. "

ITA. Sarah holds her inside edge on the ice longer than Sasha and its deeper.

"What's even worse is that her flutz and flip are almost identical in technique, which is very evident in the free skate, where the lutzs and flip are back to back. The fact that she skates, does a flip/flutz, goes to the other end of the rink, does a flip/flutz, and then again skates back to the other end of the rink to do another flip/flutz shows quite clearly that they are the same jump, with the same weird picking technique that she's acquired this season."

Again completely true and now sasha is beginning to pick like Sarah into her jumps which is not good with the high bent leg again something that neither Irina or Kwan do.

[Dustin]

Originally posted by TAF2984
Again completely true and now sasha is beginning to pick like Sarah into her jumps which is not good with the high bent leg again something that neither Irina or Kwan do.

Sasha's picking technique has not changed except on the flip. She extends, bends, slightly extends a little again, and picks. There is a difference between extension and flinging the leg way up like Sarah. I don't know what people are seeing to make these observations. There is no change whatsoever on the lutz, she has good extension of the free leg before the pick, no swinging, but controlled extension. What minor flaw is going to be way over-exaggerated next?

[adrianchew]

Its clear to me that people better review my previous reminder on the membership of the board...

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3197

I see some people constantly involved in mainly Michelle vs. Sasha topics and this constant argumentativeness - "Well I disagree with you" - is becoming tiresome. Closing down this topic. ~adrianchew~