Could anyone become a Yags or Plushy?

[Lark]

It seems like a silly question. A lot of people are thinking right off the bat: OF COURSE NOT!
But what makes a Yagudin a Yagudin and a, hmmm, Angela N. an Angela N.?
Why can't Honda and Weiss and Sandhu put it together like Plushenko and Michelle?
Is it lack of talent, lack of training, lack of desire, lack of a great coach?
I remember that I was so excited when Mishin took over coaching Sokolova (?). I thought "Here she goes". But nothing. Why?
If a 9 year old Sandhu, Plushenko, Yagudin, Weiss, Goebel, Eldredge, etc. started training with Mishin, what makes the difference, granted that they all have the drive and escape injury?
Opinions would be great! :)

[adrianchew]

Interesting question, Lark.

YES - I can see someone becoming a Yags!!! - Sasha Cohen! :P

She's only beginning down the road Yags once took himself - with Tarasova and the determination and discipline and talent Sasha brings - its not a question of IF, but WHEN - she hits her full potential. ;)

Want a recipe for success? Start with a skater with lots of natural talent, raw determination/competitive drive and mental toughness. Add to that the right coach that can tap the talent and focus the determination.

The drive and mental toughness is probably the key to Yagudin and Plushenko success. How often do you see any hesitation if at all from either of them... and how often do you see their competitive drive to compete. Yagudin competiting this year despite injury is an indication of competitiveness... Tara Lipinski risked everything in 1998 too.

What seperates Yagudin and Plushenko from the merely talented skaters - competitive fire. Coaches and other factors come into play was well, but talent alone is not enough - a skater has got to be driven. Michelle is well trained and certainly talented - but I doubt if she has the same level of competitive fire as Yagudin or Plushenko.

Yags/Plushy = DRIVEN! :twisted:

[JDC1]

Okay, where oh where do you get that Michelle has less competitive fire than Yags or Plushy? If she didn't love competing and WANT to compete she could have retired after Nagano instead she tried to balance school and skating and when that didn't quite work she cut back on school and focused on skating. At the "advanced" age of 20 years old she tries to learn new jump combos and takes the continual (and HARD) falls that ensue in this quest only to have to shelve the jump because she's hurting her back. She then fires her coach because the relationship has become "stale" and tries to coach herself to an Olympic win and tries to add the 3z/3l to her repetoire. Exactly how do Yags and Plushy have more competitive fire than MIchelle? Yags has admitted he's now skating for the money and in doing so he's risking further injury he's not skating to be competitive. While I have not always agreed with Michelle's choices the one thing that has always seemed evident to me is just how competitive she IS and how much she wants to win and be remembered as the greatest ladies skater as the total skater. I thought it was rather amusing when everybody was up in arms about Sasha and her colliding with Michelle, I think their both so competitive neither one would back off.

[adrianchew]

JDC1 - simple, Michelle left her hardest stuff on the practice ice when it counted most. I don't expect to see Yagudin or Plushenko hesitate or scale back on their jump combinations when it counts - yet Michelle did not attempt the 3/3 combo at 2 Olympics now (both times it counted and she needed it). A competitive fire is not just desire to win but to risk it all - both Sasha and Sarah at Salt Lake City demonstrated that. Tara Lipinski did it in Nagano.

I suspect somewhat Michelle's motivations to remain eligible has more to do with money than Alexei's motivations... when you watch Alexei compete, you can tell he's out there to win, but the last time I really saw that kind of fire from Michelle was back in 2001.

[Oracle]

First of all I don't want to get into a discussion about Michelle. She is a great champion.
I agree with Adrian about all the things he has mentioned about Plushenko & Yagudin...plus one more that differentiates them from our North American skaters. The dream of future financial/job security within the skating community. They have to reach the top of elite skating to be assured the opportunity to continue to earn dollars after their eligible careers have ended. Our US & Canadian skaters can do the same by becoming National champions & building a solid fan base within NA. If they are popular, well admired (like a Paul Wylie) they don't even have to win their Nationals to be much sought after as a pro.
This extra motivation for success & recognition for Plushenko & Yagudin can't at present be found within Russia. They have to leave their homes & families & perhaps, their families well-being is dependent on their ability to succeed in a foreign country. I'm not saying that our skaters aren't motivated by repaying their families for the sacrifices they've made but our skaters families aren't going to live in poverty or pin all their hopes for the future on the future success of their children within the skating world. (At least, I hope that last sentence is true!)

[lolat]

There is no comparison for Yags /Plushy ability on the ice right now. In the ladies field, possibly Miki Ando in the very near future or maybe one of the other Asian block skaters. Shasha is coming along and will be very adapt at her technicles soon but still needs consistancy. I don't think it is a matter of looking at the other skaters and seeing what you need to beat them, I think it's about being so good you don't even worry about it. Yags and Plushy are in the stratusphere in my book. A class by themselves. I love them .

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by adrianchew
JDC1 - simple, Michelle left her hardest stuff on the practice ice when it counted most. I don't expect to see Yagudin or Plushenko hesitate or scale back on their jump combinations when it counts - yet Michelle did not attempt the 3/3 combo at 2 Olympics now (both times it counted and she needed it). A competitive fire is not just desire to win but to risk it all - both Sasha and Sarah at Salt Lake City demonstrated that. Tara Lipinski did it in Nagano.

I suspect somewhat Michelle's motivations to remain eligible has more to do with money than Alexei's motivations... when you watch Alexei compete, you can tell he's out there to win, but the last time I really saw that kind of fire from Michelle was back in 2001. Well said, Adrian.

I think that Yoshie Onda has that same kind of determination and fire, as Yags and Plush, but not the same degree of talent.

To the fire, one has to add amazing talent, both artistically and technically. I don't see that magical comibnation in any of the American men. Sure wish I did, though.

Timmy can jump, but he doesn't have the flair. Matt and Johnny have a wonderful artistry, but lack panache (as well as a couple of quads).
I think that Tara was the last American to really demonstrate those Yagudin-esque qualities. Shasha is close....she just needs a few more jumps in her arsenal.

[Gaela]

I think destiny has a say in it, but also--that competive fire is defined by skating to win, rather than not to lose. Whether one is a leader or follower; much as I love Takeshi Honda, I'd call him a follower. Fumie is a follower--Chenjiang Li is a follower. Maybe confidence plays a part. When Onde assumes her starting pose on the ice, she has this great "don't mess with me" expression on her place. She and Sasha are breathing the life back into women's skating.

[adrianchew]

Yoshie - that's a great example... ok, she isn't a rounded skater at this point, but no doubt that girl goes out and attacks. I've never seen Miki Ando so I've no idea what she's like, but she might be a possibility too. If Sasha can get two 3/3 combos ready and the quad by 2006, she'll have the jumps *AND* the artistry.

I do think fans overrate those skaters with soft flowy lines, perhaps as a matter of preference, but skaters like Suguri and Arakawa lack the same sort of competitiveness - that's visible when watching Yoshie and Sasha.

Given the benchmark for ladies at the Olympics - both 1998 and 2002 it took 2 3/3 combos to win... I would say 2 3/3 combos plus a quad or 3-axel might be needed for 2006.

Yags and Plushy are sort of unique - I don't think we'll see any men that will equal their accomplishments (especially the tech difficulty), until perhaps a few years down the line.

[TAF2984]

JDC1 - simple, Michelle left her hardest stuff on the practice ice when it counted most. I don't expect to see Yagudin or Plushenko hesitate or scale back on their jump combinations when it counts - yet Michelle did not attempt the 3/3 combo at 2 Olympics now (both times it counted and she needed it). A competitive fire is not just desire to win but to risk it all - both Sasha and Sarah at Salt Lake City demonstrated that. Tara Lipinski did it in Nagano.

I suspect somewhat Michelle's motivations to remain eligible has more to do with money than Alexei's motivations... when you watch Alexei compete, you can tell he's out there to win, but the last time I really saw that kind of fire from Michelle was back in 2001.

I disagree completely. Michelle actually was trying for her triple triple at the OG 02, but as I recall she two-footed the first jump and did not have anywhere near enough speed to throw in another triple on the end. I remember Scott commenting saying good decision on that.

Sasha demonstrated competitive fire? Yeah she had some spirit during her performance, but I certainly question the intelligence. She did her triple flutz and was so far forward on it and had no speed and threw on a triple toe that anyone could see had no chance of making it and she herself should have known that as well. If she wanted it so badly she could have went with her triple flip triple toe which she practiced.

There's a difference from risking it all when you have actually proven to already have it like Tara and Sarah who were landing many triple triples during their season. It's not as much as a risk with them. MK at the 98 OG did not have or train her triple triple because of her foot and had not worked that back into her program.

I also think it's worth noting that both Tara and Sarah were not the favorites. It's an entire different story like that and even more importantly were not the best skaters in the competition either. They had no choice but to risk it all espesically Sarah. Tara heard the presentation marks of MK. If she went out there and skated tentatively it would have went to MK. It was an all or nothing situation. It had to be with her. There is no way Tara would have won if she did the same jumps of MK or even just slightly harder. I think that also should be kept in mind and everyone knows that.

Yagudin also lowered his tech content as I remembered during his free skate to make sure he was clean and didn't skate with the all attack that he usually has even though it still was a great, great performance.

I also will never forget Alexei at 00 SA where he lost to Tim where he completely gave up on the performance IMHO that was the most obvious I have ever seen from anyone.

I think Yags is a phenomenal skater and a favorite of mine, and I certainly don't want to lower any of his accomplishments, but I definitely think it's important to include the whole scenario if we are going to make such comments. Let's also note that his biggest rival was in 4th after the short. MK's wasn't and she was in first after the short with more on the line than anyone. She also has more decisions to make since she was/is the best skater, skaters like Tara and Sarah have no choice, but to risk it all.

Michelle out there for money more than Alexei? I don't buy that one at all. Alexei even stated why he was competing was for the money more than anything. MK is probably the richest out of all the skaters so I doubt that one then why has she still continued school unlike the other skaters?

[adrianchew]

Notice I said when it counts (Olympics, gold or bust)? Alexei didn't need to go all out, but Michelle certainly did after how Sarah skated in SLC. And the bottom line - Michelle had nothing to lose? She lost the gold, twice. Alexei had nothing to lose - he won! Sarah had nothing to lose?... (she could have skated conservatively to try and get a bronze hoping someone else falls) - she won too! ;)

There were times when Michelle had the competitive fire - but it comes and goes... the last time I've seen truly inspired Michelle fire - 2001 Nationals SP, 2001 Worlds LP. She's clearly not going full force this season either competitively, deliberating over which events to compete in.

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Notice I said when it counts (Olympics, gold or bust)? Alexei didn't need to go all out, but Michelle certainly did after how Sarah skated in SLC. And the bottom line - Michelle had nothing to lose? She lost the gold, twice. Alexei had nothing to lose - he won! Sarah had nothing to lose?... (she could have skated conservatively to try and get a bronze hoping someone else falls) - she won too! ;)

There were times when Michelle had the competitive fire - but it comes and goes... the last time I've seen truly inspired Michelle fire - 2001 Nationals SP, 2001 Worlds LP. She's clearly not going full force this season either competitively, deliberating over which events to compete in.

I didn't say MK had nothing to lose, but she had more decisions to make concerning her skating than a Tara or Sarah who had to go all out because they have no choice in the matter. You also didn't say just Olympics you said competitive fire in general.

I think you mentioned before in a post that MK probably could have won with a clean 6 triple performance over Sarah which I agree with probably the exact performance at 2002 nationals would have done it. I agree with you about this season. she needs to definitely get it going because sasha looks great and is building momentum, unsure about Sarah though. MK still did manage to win her two events however.

[lolat]

ITA with Adrian where Michelle is concerned. Also, didn't she give up school for this season?

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by lolat
ITA with Adrian where Michelle is concerned. Also, didn't she give up school for this season?
MK says she wants to go to school next quarter, but the near fact that she still has continued and done so while skating also says a bit on the matter of her just doing it for money especially when she already has a lot.

[dbell]

Yags has admitted he's now skating for the money

Now there's a shocking headline - "Skaters want to be paid"! Guess after all those years of training, paying for coaches, ice time, etc. they should be out there skating for free?

Back to topic - Is there another Yagudin or Plushenko out there? Yes and he or she is probably getting up before dawn, training like mad for hours, giving up a normal life and praying for the chance to one day make it to the pinnacle.

But the big names in this topic have that special charisma that separates them from the rest of the pack - Yagudin with his drive, footwork and charm, Plushenko with his spins, jumps and sweet, quiet ways (off the ice!), Michelle with her spiral, grace and sportsmanship, Sasha - well, she's Sasha. :) You can't take your eyes off her, but hope for the clean performances just so she can shake the 'ghosts'.

[Germanice]

I agree with Adrian about all the things he has mentioned about Plushenko & Yagudin...plus one more that differentiates them from our North American skaters. The dream of future financial/job security within the skating community. They have to reach the top of elite skating to be assured the opportunity to continue to earn dollars after their eligible careers have ended. Our US & Canadian skaters can do the same by becoming National champions & building a solid fan base within NA. If they are popular, well admired (like a Paul Wylie) they don't even have to win their Nationals to be much sought after as a pro.
EXACTLY!!! That's the way the cookie crumbles! Fortunatly for Yags, Plush and all skating fans around the world, unfortunatly in general.

No, I can't see anyone right now who could come even close to their greatness and magic. I agree with many points which were made here, most of all with the one above (... not completly though). But one argument I've missed: Their "rivalry", the whole story behind it, which I don't have to repeat here. Both skaters are incredible talented, but maybe neither Yags nor Plush would've reached the same degree of "almost inmortality" without the other one. They "had" (... isn't it sad write it in the "past"-form?) each other, they "needed" each other, they pushed each other to the max. Both of them simply hated to lose against the other one. That's why they had to prove time after time again who's the real better one when it comes to medals, titles, money, popularity ... and Mishin in the background did everything he could to stir it up ...

There'll be no Yags at this Worlds (and maybe not at any Worlds at all in the
future :( ). Be assured, Plush'll seriously miss him (... like Yags missed him at Euros and Worlds last season, even though he'd never admit it ... ), and I guess he's not the only one ...

Anke

[Kabooke]

What's so amusing is how conviently people seem to forget about Kwan's stress fracture in 98' that hurt her foot with 3toe's. By the Olympics she didn't want to change her program because you can't adjust as quickly! Also, I guess that means Slutskaya lacked the competitive fire in SLC too, as did just about everyone else who didn't complete a 3/3!


I find it amusing how some go out of their way to critisize certain skaters everytime. I guess it's all about the jumps for certain people.

Ah, who cares,
Michelle has gotten this far which is certainly saying something for competitiveness, desire, and longevity despite somes willingness to try and ignore it. Kwan knows how good she is and will continue to show it whether or not certain people give her her props. I can't wait for nationals!!!

[JDC1]

HUGE DIFFERENCE between competitive fire and being PERFECT, you need to differentiate Adrian. As Taf wrote Michelle definitely went for the the 3t/3t but didn't do it that doesn't show lack of competitive fire that shows "nerves" the two are not mutually exclusive. How can you say she wasn't willing to do ANYTHING she fired Frank most likely because he was holding her back on her jump content and she wanted to push the envelope. You need to make your point clearer and cleaner.

And OFCOURSES all skaters want to get paid but Yags is the ONLY one I've heard in the competitive realm say "I skate for the money". I'm not making a value judgement just saying that this certainly goes against Adrian's argument that Yags is skating because of some competitive burning fire, he's skating to make money to help support his family.

The very fact that Michelle still skates and competes shows she burns with competitive fire but ofcourse doesn't mean she's perfect. She makes between 2-4 million dollars a year and she's only 21 years old are you trying to tell me she skates for any other reason BESIDES competitive desire. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[hiliairyh]

I am not getting into the Michelle v Sasha thing here. I agree Michelle is a great champion. Every skater is unique, I expect great unique things from Sasha, but I don't expect her to be a female version of Yags. It will be exciting to watch whether Sasha will fulfill her potential or not. I won't think anymore or less of her if she does not win Olympic gold in 2006, or if she does not win 4 world gold + 2 world silver + an Olympic silver + Olympic bronze + 6 naional titles + 3 national silvers.

About Yags and Plushenko, interesting competition. If Plushenko did not fall in the sp, he might be the champion. These 2 trade wins, Plushenko beat Yags every time in Russian nationals, and worlds in 01? Plushenko is competitive, lets see how he'll do in 2006.

Adrian said, " skaters like Arakawa lack the same sort of competitiveness - that's visible when watching Yoshie and Sasha."

I have to disagree about Arakawa, she is competitive, just because she has a soft lyric style does not mean she is not competitive. IIRC, she probably has landed more 7 triple jumps, and 3/3 combinations free skates in the past 2 seasons than any top level female skaters, including Sarah. She landed 7 triples in free skate of Skate America 2001, with a triple sal/triple loop to boot. Judges do not mark her high, and we have to ask Ellyn why. In 4 CC 2002, she missed a couple of triple jumps early in her free skate, but threw in a triple toe/triple toe/double loop at the end, that is competitiveness and talent. In NHK, she missed the final triple toe, but made that up within 30 seconds, and landed 7 triples. OTOH, Yoshie has not really landed any 3/3, her triple toe/triple toe at best is a sequence. I like her athleticism and work ethics, and hope she will soon land that triple axel.

Miki Ando has talent and drive, but she also has a very lyric style. Her triple lutz/triple loop is almost a throw away. I hope she will do well in Japan National next year.

:D

[Greek Chic]

Originally posted by adrianchew


I suspect somewhat Michelle's motivations to remain eligible has more to do with money than Alexei's motivations... when you watch Alexei compete, you can tell he's out there to win, but the last time I really saw that kind of fire from Michelle was back in 2001.

Well said Adrian

[TAF2984]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
I am not getting into the Michelle v Sasha thing here. I agree Michelle is a great champion. Every skater is unique, I expect great unique things from Sasha, but I don't expect her to be a female version of Yags. It will be exciting to watch whether Sasha will fulfill her potential or not. I won't think anymore or less of her if she does not win Olympic gold in 2006, or if she does not win 4 world gold + 2 world silver + an Olympic silver + Olympic bronze + 6 naional titles + 3 national silvers.




I have to disagree about Arakawa, she is competitive, just because she has a soft lyric style does not mean she is not competitive. IIRC, she probably has landed more 7 triple jumps, and 3/3 combinations free skates in the past 2 seasons than any top level female skaters, including Sarah. She landed 7 triples in free skate of Skate America 2001, with a triple sal/triple loop to boot. Judges do not mark her high, and we have to ask Ellyn why. In 4 CC 2002, she missed a couple of triple jumps early in her free skate, but threw in a triple toe/triple toe/double loop at the end, that is competitiveness and talent. In NHK, she missed the final triple toe, but made that up within 30 seconds, and landed 7 triples. OTOH, Yoshie has not really landed any 3/3, her triple toe/triple toe at best is a sequence. I like her athleticism and work ethics, and hope she will soon land that triple axel.


:D

MK has 3 world silvers. Arakawa did not do a triple sal/triple loop at SA more like a triple sal double loop then spinned on her toepick for the last rotation. I don't think she has landed as many 7 triple programs as stated either. I still get your point though.

[Kabooke]

Let's wait until after nationals and then we can talk!
I'm so excited, less than 20 days until nationals begin!

[donnamarie]

Yagudin and Plushenko are in a class of their own. Really, no other male skater, past or present, can touch them. It's hard to say that about anyone else. (And what sets them apart? Yes, what everyone said - talent, ability, competitive fire, consistency, they have it all.)

For a time, Michelle also seemed to be in a class of her own, and nobody could touch her, until/except Tara. For whatever reasons, the other women have caught up with her. I don't think any of the women are as utterly outstanding as Y & P are. None of the women can jump waaaaaaaaaaay better, has waaaaaaaaaaay more competitive fire, and is waaaaaaaaaay more consistent than the other women, as can be said of Y & P. Sasha does have a lot of potential, though. Sarah also has great potential, if it weren't for certain shortcomings in technique and form. Michelle still is usually the one to beat, but she is not in a class of her own, as Y & P are among the men. Actually, I have wondered if any men will come along to equal these two, ever. They're simply amazing. Nobody else can beat them, they can only beat themselves.

[Kabooke]

All it means is that the other men haven't stepped up to the plate as the women have! Which is why the women's competition is more interesting.
With the men it is either Yagudin or Plushenko, with the women now it could be Kwan, Coehn, Slutskaya, Volchkova, Onda, Hughes, Suguri, and a miriad of women who really want to step up.

I think the others have just simply finally caught up to Michelle and not just one or two. However, I think Michelle is aware of this and is working hard on her jumps and refining her programs. I think this years nationals have the potential to be the best ever!

Kwan like Cohen, when it comes to particular aspects in their skating they are both in a class of their own! Kwan overall dominance is gone because unlike the men(and I may be wrong) the women seem more motivated to want to be the best and as of now it is still considered a great accomplishment to defeat Michelle Kwan.

In the past four years in Olympic-style eligible competition she has only been beaten by 4 women(Lipinski-3time(s), Butyrskaya-1time(s),Slutskaya-8time(s), & Hughes-2time(s). And 5 overall(Chiounard(sp?))

[Overr8ed sk8er]

:roll:

Actually I opend this one because I wanted to read something about Yagudin und Plushenko, and what makes them so outstanding, because they REALLY are! Instead of this it almost turned out into another ordinary Kwan-thread and about how "great" she is or at least was. :x :( Give us a break! We know it, we already heard it, and more than once!

Is it possible to return to the ORIGINAL topic, please?

[AxelAnnie22]

Happy to return to the topic. Did you want to limit the discussion to the men? If so, the conversation is short and rather bleak.

IMO - there are no Yags or Plushy's on the horizon. The only skater I see who can keep up with them in the jump dept (although he doesn't do the three-string combos) it Tim. But Tim is not even close in the artistry, flair or fire dept. And, I don't think amazing ability, flair and fire are qualities that one learns. And, the presence of all three qualities in huge proportions, are what make Alexi and Evgeny so powerful and dazzling to watch.

You either have them, or you don't, in my opinion. You can develop them, hone them, refine them, but it is like "it" you either have it, or you don't.

So, my answer to your original question is: There could be, some day, but not just yet!

[adrianchew]

Men - off the top of my head - I can think of one - if he can become consistent with his jumps... Sasha Abt. He has the flair and artistry can do the quads - just needs to do it all and not mess anything up in his programs.

[Ximena]

Yep, so far I don't know of any of the male figure skaters that can come close to them.
Tim is a wonderful jumper, no doubt about that, but he has to work on his presentation, otherwise he will never be serious competition for Plushenko and Yags, Tim has got high presentations marks when he was not competing agains Plushy or Yags, like in the Hersheys competition where he got a 5.9 for pres.
Abt is a wonderful skater and it's impossible that he will bore you, but he had always had problems with his jumps and he always runs "out of gas" by the end of his programs.
The thing about Plushy and Yags is that this "rivarly" had help them more than they can imagine, I don't think now but at least a year or two years ago, their only purpose was to beat the other one so they work harder and harder and now they have arrived to one point that is impoosible for the rest of the field to catch them. They are both amazingly talented in presentation (although Yags kind of beat Plushy there) and they are very strong technically (but here Plushy beat by a little to Yags)
Maybe the only way to find another Plushenko and another Yags is to find two other skaters that can push each other. Right now to me (and well that is 'cause I'm a huge Plush fan) Plush is the best out there but there is none there than can push him, so he has to do it by himself. (by the way this is just my opinion)

Ximena

[donnamarie]

I myself wouldn't put Abt - or any other current skater unless it's an up-and-comer we haven't seen the potential of yet - in the same league as Y or P. Abt has been around quite a few years, and has won very seldom. Sure he has certain talents and abilities, but when I think of Y & P, I think of two skaters who are so far beyond the other skaters that virtually everyone assumes that they will win every competition they enter, and probably their only real competition will be each other. Abt, Honda, Li, Weiss, etc., will usually compete for bronze or silver if Y or P are in the competition. Abt, Honda, Weiss, Li, etc., are all capable of beating each other, depending on who's on that day. None of them are that much better than the others. This is just how I see it.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by donnamarie
The thing about Plushy and Yags is that this "rivarly" had help them more than they can imagine, Great point DM. I hadn't considered that. Add to amazing talent, fire and flair, their very personal "battle" definitely spurred them to even greater accomplishment.

[donnamarie]

Sorry, AA22, wish I could take credit for the "rivalry" comment but I didn't say it, someone else did. Thanks anyway :)

[AxelAnnie22]

Donnamarie - that is really weird - I just clicked "quote" at the bottom of the post, and the computer filled in the poster's name, etc., 8O

[BJY4EVR]

Though this is off the original topic, I think that Elvis had (and probably still has) more "competitive flare" than both Yagudin and Plushenko. However, he also lacked the natural talent (IMO) than both of those skaters, and though he has put together some incredible programs in the past, I don't think any of them particularly rival the best programs of a Yags or a Plushenko. Either way, just thought I'd take the oportunity to give credit where credit is due... :roll: