Olympic Scandal: Trading Votes Pairs 4 Dance...B & K S**

[Peter G]

[color=red:34c01ee2c2]Does anyone think the judging was totally fair at the Olympics? Was there any wheeling and dealing done in any way whatsoever?

If you think there was, do you agree that judges from various countries traded votes between the pairs and dance competitions? "You vote for our team in pairs, and we'll give your team better marks in dance."

If the French judge voted for the Russians to win the pairs, then wouldn't the Russian judge vote for the French dance team to win? Judges from other countries would give high marks to various pairs teams so that their dance team would do well (China, Italy, etc.) We know Canada suffered with the pairs.

If these other countries voted as any sort of block, and Canada was on the outside (as we saw with Sale and Pelletier), isn't there an obvious connection in Bourne and Kraatz also being on the outside?

Did Bourne and Kraatz have a chance to medal before they even stepped out on the ice? Wasn't this situation obvious, and Bourne and Kraatz had to skate knowing this? Can you imagine what kind of pressure they were under to perform well? I'm surprised they didn't fall more often!!

What I don't understand is why this point has not been brought up ANYWHERE! We know judges were swapping votes between the pairs and the dance competitions. With Canada losing out in the pairs event, it's fairly obvious things wouldn't go well for Canada in dance.

Sale and Pelletier were robbed? What about Bourne and Kraatz not getting a chance to skate in a fair competion? What about Bourne and Kraatz being able to skate/perform WITHOUT this additional pressure which NO other dance team had to skate under???[/color:34c01ee2c2]

[SlipNSlide]

I remember reading an article somewhere after the Olympics that L&A were supposed to be close to A&P heading in the FD and then they would eventually pass them to win the gold, but one of the judges involved in the bloc drew the alternate position so the French won 5-4. I also recall the article explaining that A&P retired soon after the Olympics because they were not going to win at Worlds so they decided to retire instead. It was a very interesting article and I wish I could remember where I read it but i can't.

[Emilieanne]

There is a lot more to this than anyone has acknowledged, and it is my belief that in due course it will all come out. This is definitely going to get a lot uglier before this is finished.

We all strongly suspected that ugly things like this were going on, but there was never any concrete proof up to now. I also read some unsavory things, but I cannot remember where...so I am not going to repeat anything for that reason. It had to do with the sudden retirement of A&P.

The ISU Congress starts tomorrow in Kyoto, and I am sure that is going to be a very hot meeting. Speedy's proposal regarding the scoring system makes no sense and is full of more holes than Swiss cheese. I like the USFSA's idea of life-time bans for ethical misconduct. What a shame that was not in place before. :( Skate Canada also supports that idea and went one further with proposing that federation presidents be rendered ineligible to sit on the ISU Council or any of its committees or to judge/referee international competitions while serving as a federation president. Too bad that idea was not yet extended to the spouses of federation presidents.

I am also sure that the IOC is doing more than they are telling about this situation as well...they seem to be just biding their time, operating with the "give them enough rope they will hang themselves" :twisted: theory regarding the ISU. Also, the IOC 114th Session is in Mexico City at the end of November. I would not be the least bit surprised if there are things on that agenda regarding the figure skating travesty.

All I know is everyone seems to be totally fed up with the shennanigans that have been going on and want them stopped now. I certainly do. This whole mess makes me so angry and I am sure it angers the rest of you. :x

[lBrokenAnkle]

The problem with the way the ISU handled the Pair scandal mess is that we do not know the whole story. IF the French fed conspired to see to it that B&S would win, then who did they conspire with? Why are those individuals not being punished? I've seen it suggested that all the federations conduct this sort of wheeling and dealing, and if that is so, they all should be exposed. And yes, that means if the North American federations are or have been involved too.

I am really at a loss to understand how Speedy system would even work, but it does not sound like an effective way either to prevent deals or to make the judging system less partisan. Banning cheaters for life is a good startm but it really needs to be hammered out in detail because the judges will sue and have their sentences reduced as occured after the 1999 pairs scandal. Judges need to be allowed to defend themselves, as did not happen for Le Gougne and Gaihailet and it must be open to the public and the press.

In fact if anything would help this quagmire, all these meetings and discussions and investigation should be done in the public eye. That will cut back on the corruption as much as anything esle could.

Laura

[PatC]

That there is a perception of collusion is enough to mar the sport.

We've all heard the rumors that deals in ice dance were always being made. The part I find interesting is that it seems to be always between the Russian and the French.

ex: Duchesnay's/K&P
Anissina & Peizerat vs Moniotte and Lavanchy/G&P
A&P/L&A

In a couple cases politically weaker teams - quoting Didier here from '98 - were always sacrificed.

Now, all of this could be totally untrue. But just the perception of it, is enough, and then to infer that deals in ice dance were used to determine pairs? Oh boy.......

It doesn't matter how many times we change the scoring system, the judges could use their toes for all it matters...... :mrgreen: but they have to be straight toes, not crooked toes, or ones with bunions..........you get my drift.

Change for changes sake is never a good idea. I think this is going to take a while for skating to come up with a solution on how to deal with the judging, the ISU have to use a harsh punishment to deter deal making. And as for the public's perception that FS is fixed, that's going to take a lot longer to fix. We've gone thru 2 olympics where the results have been controversial, and allegations of corruption were bandied about. This isn't going to change anytime soon.

[Peter G]

I've enjoyed everyone's responses. I hope to hear from more people.

BUT, I do hope to hear from some people on whether they agree or disagree that two people who were the most scr**ed over were Bourne and Kraatz.

[HotIce]

Since you asked for opinions I will give mine.
No. I don't think B&K were screwed over at either Olympics.
They were not as good as A&P in 98 and fell in 02.
I think they would have gotten the bronze if they had not fallen this year.
I know that is not what you wanted to hear, but you asked!

[Hannahclear]

I thought that the absolutely hideous OD of B/K should have been enough to have them banned from all competition in perpetuity :wink: (J/K) and I usually enjoy their skating. However, all that popping and squishing just didn't do it for me. I don't think they were robbed, but I do think that ice dance in general was pretty awful at the games.

[Emilieanne]

Sure there are others out there who are engaged in all the shennanigans as we all know. When this whole scene erupted in Salt Lake, they all ran for cover like cockroaches when the light is turned on, and they are still hiding in the walls and under the rocks.

It will be most telling at the ISU Congress (which starts tomorrow) who supports/opposes which measures. That by itself will produce a pretty accurate roadmap as to who is up to what... :wink: and where this story is likely to go from there. The old adage "actions speak louder than words" is most true...particularly here. We all just need to pay close attention. It is also my belief that the IOC is watching to see what the ISU gets accomplished (or fails to accomplish) at this meeting. It seems to me that right now the IOC has adopted a position of "give them enough rope, they will hang themselves." :P

Do keep in mind that Dr. Rogge and Dick Pound were both Olympic athletes (Dr. Rogge in Yachting in 1968, 1972 and 1976 for Belgium; Dick Pound was a swimmer for Canada, but I don't remember what Olympiad(s) he was in, but I think one of them was 1960 and perhaps 1964); neither Samaranch (former president of the IOC) nor Speedy were ever Olympians. Both Dr. Rogge and Dick Pound are most interested in sport being for the athletes and all involved do the right thing for the athletes. Both men despise cheating of ANY kind whatsoever, and in Salt Lake, it was quite obvious to me that Dr. Rogge was ready to eat Speedy for breakfast, put him up for lunch and hang him out by his you-know-whats to dry because of this mess.

During the men's final, Dr. Rogge and Speedy were sitting next to each other in the front row and Speedy looked like he had been force-fed a humongous skunk! :lol: Speedy also looked like he was going to turn green when he had to award that second gold medal to S&P. :mrgreen:

Yes, I do think a lot of skaters were not given their due over the years because of all this, and that is not only most sad :cry: but also infuriating :evil:!

[Snowflake3939]

The dance event went pretty much how I predicted last year on FSW. I truly believe that all of the collusion started way back at the 98 Olympics - remember the talk of France getting the bronze and Israel and Italy being part of the equation? It was pay back time and time for Russia to move slowly into place to take the Olympic Gold in Ice Dance, once again. And someone just mentioned it above that someone drew the alternate so it was a 5/4 split for France! It didn't quite turn out as Russia had hoped and FP & M really thought they stood a chance.

[Peter G]

HotIce,

I'm not saying that Bourne and Kraatz, with their fall, deserved a gold medal.

What I'm saying is that they skated under the pressure of knowing the cards were stacked against them in that votes were being traded between the pairs and dance events.

If this cheating was not going on, and ALL skaters could have ONLY had the pressure of JUST the competition, perhaps Bourne and Kraatz would have skated differently AND won a medal.

The other teams (including the Italians) did not have the ADDITIONAL pressure which Bourne and Kraatz did.

[loveskating]

I think that A&P were the superior skaters in the entire field, far better than Bourne & Kratz...but like everyone else, they did not always skate their best. I loved the Italians...and Fusar-Poli is a truly great skater, IMHO.

Next were L&A, IMHO. Sometimes B&K achieved brilliance and did not make mistakes, but overall, IMHO, they were around 4th in the field of skaters as to accomplishment. Personally, I prefer Lang and Tchernachev to them...L&T have long, running edges, fly across the ice, and interpret the music very soulfully....I like them better than B&K myself.

Neither pairs B&S nor ice dancers A&P needed ANY collusion to win...all they needed to do was skate well, and they did. There are MANY precedents for the way the judges marked the pairs skating...it was not, IMHO, a "slam dunk" for S&P by any stretch of the imagination...and I agreed with the judges originally, although it was very close.

[ernibear140]

I laugh at anyone who thinks that there is no corruption. Of course there is....there is big money in winning....if there wasn't the money, I doubt there would be as many problems....there would still be vote swapping but not to the degree.

[Blue Ridge]

Rumors fly.

I am really confused by the discussion here of collusion between the judges having been supposed to work out to the advantage of L&A. We have been told for 3 months that the supposed "deal" was to put A&P on top in ice dance in exchange for B&S getting the gold in pairs. Guess these are different rumors.

I agree with loveskating, A&P did not need help--and they didn't get it, as I understand the Russian judge did not vote as the "deal" was supposed to require. Ditto, B&S.

I don't think B&K were affected by the pairs/dance "deal" controversy, but I do think they are not favored by the judges because of their style. I think they carry that burden into every competition. However, if they had not fallen there is no question, with the Italian's fall, that B&K would have won the bronze medal.

[olivia]

Of course there is corruption. That's a given, IMO. I'm not naming names nor pointing fingers at anyone/country in particular. Every country and/or federation has probably been guilty at some point in time during the course of the sport's history. The biggest problem has been that anyone empowered to do anything about it has turned a blind eye to it . . . for years and years.

It's time to start concentrating on how to improve things in the future rather than speculating on who cheated in the past, IMO. That may sound perhaps insensitive to past injustices, but, really, would anything ever be done to make amends (that is, assuming, anything could be proven)? I really don't think so. It's just high time some energy and effort is put towards making the sport better and fairer going forward. Some really tough penalties need to be established for cheaters. And, the rules must be enforced. No more wrist-slapping!

IMO, the scoring system is fine; it's the cheaters that need to be dealt with and whistle-blowers must be protected.

O-

[pittypat]

[quote:4a9fbdd62a="Peter G"]I've enjoyed everyone's responses. I hope to hear from more people.

BUT, I do hope to hear from some people on whether they agree or disagree that two people who were the most scr**ed over were Bourne and Kraatz.[/quote:4a9fbdd62a]


How were B/K "screwed over" ??? They both [b:4a9fbdd62a]fell[/b:4a9fbdd62a] flat on their backs, right in front of the judges, in the Free Dance.

[pittypat]

Peter G. I see you posted while I was posting so I will respond to that post, as well.

Unless there was definite proof of some kind of deal that worked against, B/K, I think it is silly to assume they were skating under any more pressure than any other dance team at the Olympics. They are big kids and have been around skating for a long time; if they can't handle the pressure of these competitions, then they need to get out. Falling back on the "I was robbed because of bad judging" routine has gotten old.

I am not saying there isn't corruption - of course there is and the survival of figure skating just might depend upon whether or not this situation can be rectified.

[Emilieanne]

Olivia is right on the money on this one...and the USFSA and Skate Canada have the right idea with life-time bans for ethical misconduct. Although what has happened in the past is hurtful to many, let's move forward and do everything we can to prevent such travesties in the future. This is going to be a long fight to get this job done the way it needs to...who supports/opposes the measures proposed by the USFSA and Skate Canada regarding the life-time bans will tell us all just where the problems lie...and the powers-that-be are acutely aware of the fact that their vote either way will expose what they really are. Think on that one, folks... :wink: :wink:

[Blue Ridge]

According to the USA Today:

"Earlier in the day, the USFSA withdrew its proposal to impose lifetime bans on anyone found guilty of an ethical violation in exchange for a promise that a committee would be formed to write an ISU code of ethics."

Also, did folks see that the French federation re-elected Didier G. as their president last week?

Did someone say its going to be a long fight?

[PatC]

B&K opened the door with the fall at the end. If there were deals being made it is very hard to prove. The only ones who complained were the Italians - who fell - and the Lithuanians who did not.

Now if you think that D&V got shafted - I think they have, but I don't know if they did in SLC - a valid one, then there were deals made. But it's kind of hard to prove between dance and pairs.

I don't know whether it's a blessing B&K fell, or a downfall. ;)