Russian Splits and Falling Leaves

[rack]

My friend Christy and I got into a friendly debate about these moves a while ago, and all the footwork discussion has reminded me of it.

Does anyone know which move is harder or are they roughly equal in difficulty? I certainly think they're both beautiful, but it would be great if it turned out I was right in the debate (in decades of friendship with Christy, I don't think I ever have been!).:lol:

[love2sk8]

IMO, russian split jumps are much harder...you have to get a perfect extension from both legs for it to look right, and you have to jump high enough to achieve this. Definitely the russian splits!!!

[DBZ]

I always thought falling leaves were more difficult because, unlike Russian splits, you don't have the assistance of a toe-pick to help you into the air. The falling leaf is launched off of an edge, not a toe-pick, therefore making it more difficult to achieve that perfect split in the air. At least, that's what I remember Dick Button saying a couple years back when he talked about Michelle's falling leaf. But I'm not an expert, so I could be wrong.

[annm72]

I thought I heard the same thing from some commentator, DBZ -- maybe it was Dick. I think Michelle and Sasha are the class in the field at "their" element -- falling leaf and russian split respectively -- and so, have never really thought about which one was more difficult. However, I would like rack to be "right" :P so maybe rack will share with us what he/she picked after a few more posters weigh in.

[adrianchew]

Quite a few skaters do split jumps incl. the split falling leaf (even at lower levels like Juniors), very few skaters (especially ladies) do the Russian split. I would say the Russian split is definitely harder, especially for the ladies (more men seem to do Russian splits). A guess why - the men are usually more powerful jumpers - you need a lot of spring and height to get a good Russian split.

Ann-Patrice has a good Russian split - ok it may not be class leading - but I like how its laid out in the program as a prelude to a 3-flip jump deep into the program. 8-)

Both AP and Sasha seem to get good spring on their jumps - that must help them do the Russian splits.

Anyone that goes to Nationals - watch Emily Hughes for huge split jumps including the split falling leaf.

[kayskate]

My guess is the falling leaf is easier b/c it can be done as a beginner version by low level skaters. It can be done as a small hop w/o a full split extension. However, a lower level skater cannot come close to achieving the height req'd for a Russian split position. There is no beginner version of a Russian split.

Kay

[Jarrett]

I think we have to look at it as which are harder when done the best that it can be. I would take Rory/Sasha for the russian split and Michelle for the falling leaf. AP has an ugly russian split or at least that is how it looked to me from the video I made of her lp at SA. It is just to stiff for me to enjoy it. Actually all her skating looks stiff/cold to me, that is why I enjoy Sasha and Michelle overall a lot better. I also heard the Dick comment during a Michelle performance, but he has been wrong before so who really knows. He said that it is harder to achive a fully extended falling leaf being that the back leg is turned out. I would really say that they are even though. Although back to back I would say falling leaves are far more impressive looking like Michelle did at Nationals last year.

[rack]

Okay- so far three votes for Russian splits as harder, one for falling leaves, one for equal difficulty, and one for me being right (from someone who doesn't know that Christy is much nicer than I am). And already I've learned a great deal about both moves which I never knew before.

Thanks for all the posts!:D

[spicyicey]

I agree with Kay in that you can't do a Russian halfway. It doesn't take a whole lot of work to do a decent falling leaf-a good Russian takes a LOT more. The falling leaf is just a matter of getting a good split, while in a Russian you have to learn a whole new air position. Russians get my vote as being much harder.

[AxelAnnie22]

Gee, I am really surprised. I would have thought the split falling leaf was more difficult.
Officially though, I vote for which ever Rack thought was more difficult .

[Dustin]

I'll vote for equal, but it really comes down to the extension and height of the jump. Great extension on either of them is very hard to attain in the short amount of air time.

[JDC1]

I think the falling leaf is considered more difficult but it really depends on how well you do them. In addition generally anything off of an edge is considered more difficult but it depends on the skater. I think Sasha's Russian Split is gorgeous and better than just about any falling leaf being done out there except Michelle's, I love the flow and the "airyness" and the fact that it looks so easy. :-)

[Hannahclear]

Falling leaf is easier for lower level skaters, but to be done at Michelle does them, with that sort of amplitude is harder than a Russian split, because there is no toe pick assist.

[adrianchew]

I believe Emily Hughes gets a better split and amplitude in the split falling leaf actually, compared to Michelle.

[Hannahclear]

You have stabbed my Kwancentric heart with many knives :D

Good for her, what do you want to bet I'll still likes Michelle's better? :oops:

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Hannahclear

You have stabbed my Kwancentric heart with many knives :D

Good for her, what do you want to bet I'll still likes Michelle's better? :oops:

I said split/amplitude - it I didn't say it was prettier to look at. Guess whose is more refined? ;)

[Hannahclear]

Ah that's better. :D

[adrianchew]

Transformed into a poll. ;)

[Hannahclear]

Hey! I clicked on split falling leaf and it came out Russian split!

Aha! This poll is rigged :o (j/k)

Can you undo my vote?

[adrianchew]

Your vote was under split falling leaf (just checked) - it shows the stuff in the order it was entered for the poll, not what you voted. But it didn't seem to count yours? Its ok I've fixed the vote counts per the who voted what list.

[Hannahclear]

Thanks!

:o

[inthezone]

Actually, there is kind of a way to "cheat" the russian split, you bring the legs closer to each other, and closer to you in front, in that the legs are brought up parallel to each other, but without a full split extension between the legs, in order for the hands to reach the toes. Most men do it this way, and so do some ladies, including AP. One skater that does it right is Sasha. I'd still say the split falling leaf is harder to do WELL, harder to get up and actually do the split, but both Sasha and Michelle's are both great, more of a personal preference.

[Badams]

looks like it all depends on who your favorite skater is. ;)

[rack]

I leave the house and I'm a question; I come back and find I'm a poll!

I hope you all appreciate the irony that I alone cannot vote on the subject, since I don't know which is harder (which is why I asked in the first place).

I'm never leaving the house again (which, if we get a foot of snow is probably the truth).;)

[loveskating]

Great discussion....I would have said that they were equal in difficulty, but now I think the Russian Split is probably a bit harder....still, to get the kind of quality that Sasha and Michelle do on these respectively is not easy. I mean, Kulik and Weiss both can do a 3 axel, but the quality of Kulik's is just soooo much greater.

I think Sasha's Russian Split is the best I've ever seen, because her body is striaght up and she gets enormous lift AND covers a lot of ice, and also she can do it right out of footwork.

I think Kwan's split falling leaf is the best I've seen, for similar reasons, the trunk of her body is lovely, she has the perfect air position and the lift is great plus she covers a lot of ice.

With both, the element is very explosive.

Haven't seen Emily's but its great to hear that an up and comer has a great split falling leaf.

[Layback]

I am assuming that what you mean by 'split falling leaf' is a stag? if not, then my brain hasnt turned on yet today (all the boxing day shopping!!) thus, my response is written with respect to stags vs russians.

Just considering the number of split falling leaves (of all types of quality) i have seen at many competitive levels, and the number of russians performed (or 'attempted'), I will confidently say Russians are much harder. Also, as a skater, I never ventured into Russiansplits, but did do spl. falling leaves (albeit not like MK's!!).

To me, this isnt a fair question--one is easier than the other because one is impossible to do halfway, whereas one can be done in varying degrees of quality (whoever brought up this pt before--v. good!)

[Designdiva]

Kayskate said that there is no Russian split for low-level skaters.

I want to make the case that I see prelim - juvenile skaters doing illegitimate (I can't believe the word I want to use here is censored, Mon Dieu!:evil: ) versions of Russian splits all the time. I also see a lot of kids "cheat" the Russian split by not achieving a complete split position.

As a skater, I think the Russian split is easier because the toepick gives you hang time. To do a good split falling leaf you have to have impeccable timing.

As a fan, I prefer Kwan's split falling leaf. You can tell this jump is not easy if you just look at her arm position: up over her head which pulls up the center of gravity. Most skaters do this jump with their arms at the side. Skaters who do split jumps poorly have their arms dangling or scrunched, hanging on to dear life. I think Kwan is the only one who really performs this move well.

I actually preferred Naomi Nari Nam's Russian split. I think she achieved a better position than anyone else in the world. I find Sasha/Burgharts hyperextended splits icky.

-- the Diva, who would like to flatten out her split jump to 180 degrees.

[Chico]

I skate, an adult skater to boot. I can do a falling leaf. Doesn't look like Michelle's that's for sure, but I do have a nice one I'm told. I'd say doing a split is probably harder on the skill level. Still, to do either WELL takes skill. A pick jump isn't easier or harder really, it depends on what you like as a skater. I like edge jumps, so edge jumps are easier to ME. Some folks like pick jumps better. It's a preferance thing. Pretty line is a skill. Someone mentioned Michelle's arms. This is one of the areas that I think Sasha could work on by the way. Just input here.

Chico

[Ellyn]

A few definitions, just to clarify what I understand by each of the terms:

half-flip: a jump from a flip takeoff (back inside edge and toepick) that rotates half a revolution and lands forward on the opposite toepick pushing onto the forward inside edge of the other foot

falling leaf: a half-revolution jump that takes off from a back outside edge (like a loop jump) and lands forward on the opposite toepick just like a half-flip

Both of these can be done as small jumps with little height and the legs remaining vertical, and as such they are very easy jumps, easier than the single flip and single loop, respectively. They can *also* be done with much more height and spectacular air positions, such as splits, that can be done well or poorly, and obviously the better the eight and extension, the more difficult to achieve. You will see beginners attempting "split jumps," "split falling leaves," and "stag jumps" where the legs don't split even close to 90 degrees in the air, much less 180. But if it's more than 45 degrees and the overall skating is at a low level anyway, you can give these credit for being slightly more difficult "split" versions of the basic half jumps. Also, the half-flip versions can be done from a half-lutz approach instead, which would make them slightly harder, but then we would probably specify "split half-lutz" rather than just "split jump."

split jump: half-flip jump with the legs extended in a split at the top of the jump, achieved after the half revolution is complete so that the skater is facing forward toward the landing with the non-picking foot in front and the picking foot in back

Russian split: half-flip jump with the legs extended in a Russian split at the top of the jump, achieved after a quarter revolution is complete with the skater facing sideways to the takeoff and to the landing and another quarter revolution on the way down (can also be performed as a full-revolution jump with one-quarter revolution on the way up and three-quarters on the way down, landing on a back outside edge -- called "split-flip" or "split-lutz")

stag jump: same as split jump but with the front leg or both legs bent at the knee (with just the front leg bent, this can actually fairly attractive in the low-level, less than 90-degree version)

split falling leaf: similar to a split jump in the air (half revolution all achieved on the way up, with non-takeoff leg extended front and takeoff leg extended back at the top of the jump), but from a falling leaf (back outside edge, loop jump) takeoff -- this can also be done in a stag position -- see Rudy Galindo's version at the end of his Swan Lake program from 1996

Note that Nicole Bobek did both split jumps and split falling leafs with comparable amplitude, but never Russian splits. Maybe it has to do with which direction a skater is most flexible in.

I think doing any of them well, with the feet at hip level, is difficult and it's not worth quibbling over which is more difficult.

Another position that used to be common in the 1950s and 60s, and I think earlier as well, was a half-flip (probably) into a tuck position in the air. I have a picture copied from an old Skating magazine of Richard Callaghan in this position. :-) If you look at enough pictures from that era, you're sure to see some famous skaters in that pose.

[AxelAnnie22]

Thanks Ellyn. That was GREAT information, as usual :D

[missmarysgarden]

I agree with whoever said that neither position (russian vs fwd split) is more difficult in itself - it depends on the type of flexibility an individula has - much of which is determined by where in the pelvis the socket is positioned. If it is higher and more toward the outside, the side split position is easier. A "russian" split is a "side split" done with the legs forward, i.e., not in the same vertical plane with the trunk. This is a much easier position than a true "side split" - which is seldom done to 180 degrees - by anyone. Rory Burghart was very close - but even with oversplit, her leg lines were "icky" - very knobby and with flexed feet. However, the height of her "russian split" was astounding.

The forward split is difficult to attain with square hips, and an even (both legs at the same height, not tilted) split, erect torso, soft arm carriage. The jump can be achieved as a "stag-split" (bending then extending the front leg in order to gain impetus) or a true "split jump", where the lead leg comes through in "tendu" and remains fully extended through the take-off - much more difficult it takes much more lift to attain height. That's why so many dancers, gymnasts and skaters find it difficult to maintain good arm position in the take-off - they give in to the urge to fling arms, hunch shoulders - bad technique...and ugly.

I think the wild card here is that there is a significant difference when the takeoff into these jumps is off the ice rather than off the floor or mat. A high, light, fully-extended split jump or falling leaf, with good form in the trunk, and light, aesthetically pleasing arms, would be technically more difficult because it takes off from an edge rather than a pick. Both jumps difficult and are lovely to look at when done well; a lovely falling leaf with great amplitude is the rarer, historically and currently, IMO.

[hiliairyh]

Ellyn, thanks.

From watching the skaters:

Kristi has a good Russian split, but her split falling leave is about 90 degree. I consider her split falling leaf pretty, because the front and back legs make the same angle relative to the vertical line.

Sarah, and Irina has a climbing falling leaf, with front leg parallel to the ice, and the back leg forming a 30 degree from the horizontal line. BTW, I was watching the Royal ballet on tv, and the prima ballerina, also has a climbing split jump, her front leg was almost parallel to the floor, but back leg was about 30 degree from the horizontal line. IMHO, climbing falling leaf is not as pretty as Kristi, but hey, Sarah and Irina are the reigning Olympic and world champions, can't argue with success. Emily Hughe's split and amplitude is better than Sarah, IMHO, not quite Michelle Kwan or Nari Nam level.

I agree Nari Nam has the best Russian split, and she can do a split from loop take off complete with 360 degree turn. I miss her so much.

[Layback]

ELLYN: thanks for your definitions!

[Aussie Willy]

Gee you are all talking about Russian Splits and no-one has mentioned the King of the Russian Split - TOLLER CRANSTON!!!!

I think Sasha does an excellent split, but Toller Cranston's were just amazing.

As for what I think is more difficult, I will give it to the split falling leaf though because it is harder to take off that back outside edge.

I am sure Sarah Hughes does a split falling leaf which is lovely and better than Michelle's - however someone might correct me there.

[rack]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
Gee you are all talking about Russian Splits and no-one has mentioned the King of the Russian Split - TOLLER CRANSTON!!!!

I think Sasha does an excellent split, but Toller Cranston's were just amazing.

As for what I think is more difficult, I will give it to the split falling leaf though because it is harder to take off that back outside edge.

I am sure Sarah Hughes does a split falling leaf which is lovely and better than Michelle's - however someone might correct me there.

Thank you for bringing up Toller Cranston. Many many many years ago I attended a professional competition held at Madison Square Garden. It was a team event, and one of the contests involved Russian split jumps. Each team had one skater doing them, and the idea was to see which man could do more.

One side put up Toller Cranston; I don't remember who the other side had. Skater X did many more Russian splits than Cranston, and thus his team won that contest. But everyone at MSG saw that Cranston's were of much higher quality, and I remember a fair amount of booing over the result.

And while I'm thanking people, let me thank everyone again who's participated here and taught me so much. I still don't think it's proper for me to vote, but I do want to report that Christy did!:lol:

[nutty-ducky]

i think that russian split jumps look much more harder, but i think sasha does it really really well! :D
i also like michelle's split falling leaf but i reckon it is not as hard as the russian split jump.
i reckon if the jump has spring in it, and i good extensions then it looks great. thats why i like sasha and michelle doing there russian splits, and split falling leafs, becasue they have a really good extension! :D

[missmarysgarden]

I can't speak for the standard for "leaps" in FS because I don't have them at hand - maybe someone can help.

I do know that in ballet, what is considered good technique for a "jete" is lightness, control, hips remaining square to the front, erect torso on take-off maintained through the landing, EVEN SPLIT AT THE TOP OF THE LEAP (no dragging of the back leg) no matter what the degree of the split, soft arms, landing in demi-plie with turnout. The desired amplitude of the Jete is determined by the choreographer and the artistic director, who interprets the choreography. A jete can be as tiny as a little step; a "grand jete" should be high and cover some distance, depending on the choreography. In ballet, the choreography sometimes calls for a "rocking horse" motion, which could be what you call a "climbing leap"; or for a sissone, which is really a jump with takeoff from two feet with an oblique split with the front leg low, the back leg high. Again, this can be choreographed as "petit" with a small split or "grande" with a large one.

In gymnastics, a full 180 degree split is required for all leaps with the exception of in compulsory (beginning) levels... 120 degrees for level 5; 150 degrees for level 6. The reason is so the gymnast will focus on correct technique before pushing for a full split. If the split is less than 180 degrees, the deductions are progressively severe - from .05 to .2 - and if 150 degrees or less, no credit for the skill is given. Likewise, the deductions for uneven split (i.e., "climbing" leap) are severe as this technique is unacceptable - mainly because it is considered quite unattractive.

I disagree that Sarah's falling leaf is better than Michelle's on several points. Her trunk is falling forward, she tends to hunch, her hips are extremely open to the side, she has no turnout, her knees are not always fully extended, her arms are less than graceful, she does not always have a full 180, the stretch of her foot is inadequate, and she has a stag takeoff which facilitates the jump, she "thrusts" into the jump instead of "lifting", and she "bobs" the landing. I don't mean to be picky, but having judged as estimated 40,000 floor routines and 40,000 beam routines in almost 30 years of judging, my eye picks up the flaws that I have been trained to deduct for. Perhaps these are not important in FS, and I am applying aesthetic standards to what is judged in FS only for athleticism and completion. Is it only the verticle height and completion of the leap that matter in FS, or are there technical requirements??

[hiliairyh]

"EVEN SPLIT AT THE TOP OF THE LEAP (no dragging of the back leg) no matter what the degree of the split"

Those were the words I was struggling for even split at the top of the leap, no matter what the degree of the split. Thats why I find Kristi's split falling leaf lovelier than Sarah's.

[hoptoad]

Thanks, rack, for starting such an informative thread, and of course to those who contributed.

Are there any eligible skaters who can do these jumps anywhere near as well as Michelle or Sasha? They seem to be in a class of their own.

NNN for split jumps...
Emily Hughes is apparently making good progress on the split falling leaf, but I think missmarygarden would be able to articulate why it is not yet as good as Michelle's.

[spiralsrfun]

Both Michelle and Sasha are the class of the field with these two moves.

As far as what's more difficult...I can't do either jump yet (haven't tried...lol) but according to Dick Button at the 1999 spring pro am he stated about Michelle's split falling leaf, the split falling leaf "is an old style classic position and much more difficult to achieve a split than the easier, Russian style, split jump."

Considering Dick did an amazing Russian Split himself, that says a lot about his respect for the Split Falling Leaf.

Regardless of which is more difficult...both are amazing jumps when done well. :)

[loveskating]

Wasn't the skater mentioned as having a great split falling leat EMILY Hughes, who is I think Sarah's younger sister? I haven't even seen Emily skate yet, much less seen her split falling leaf!!

Anyway, Sarah has much improved her split falling leaf, which she did during the special (in pink dress). Not quite up to Kwan's standard, though...doesn't cover as much ice across or have as much lift, but the air position of the legs is now a really nice split...and so its in a that league -- and its good to see her improve that, as its good to see any skater improve on anything.

[Hannahclear]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spiralsrfun
[B]As far as what's more difficult...I can't do either jump yet (haven't tried...lol) but according to Dick Button at the 1999 spring pro am he stated about Michelle's split falling leaf, the split falling leaf "is an old style classic position and much more difficult to achieve a split than the easier, Russian style, split jump."

Considering Dick did an amazing Russian Split himself, that says a lot about his respect for the Split Falling Leaf.

~Did you just watch that program today too? :lol: Very pretty.....I just thought that was funny, I happened to hear that exact same quote earlier this afternoon.

[spiralsrfun]

Hannahclear...lol...yes, I actually watched that on New Years Day.

One More Time...a classic program indeed.

[Hannahclear]

That program is a dream.....so many wonderful spirals, just effortlessly incorporated.