Footwork difficulty - a discussion

[AxelAnnie22]

There seem to be two different approaches to footwork: Edgy and Toe-pic/Staccato. Which is more difficult?

People talk about Michelle's footwork as being mostly edges, and say that this is superior.

And, watching Yags, Sasha and Browning, people marvel at the quick changes, and toe-pic work, and say this is so very difficult.

So, which is it? Is it apples and oranges, or is it toe loop vs. loop in difficulty?

I am not talking about what people like, but rather which is more difficult to execute, and which (if either) receives a higher base score.

[AxelAnnie22]

OOPS - Adrian, I put this in the wrong discussion. I can't move it, and I can't delete it :o

HELP!!!!

[Ellyn]

I would say that toepick work requires very good balance, agility, and "quickness" -- it is at least as athletically demanding as edgework and requires its own techniques.

Also it can be very useful for interpreting staccato music and for adding rhythmic variety in general.

On the other hand, skating per se is primarily about edges and flow, and the more advanced turns require a high degree of technical skill precisely at the types of skills that are fundamental to skating.

Edges are also very useful for interpreting legato music.

I think that all skaters should be required (or at least expected) to demonstrate an appropriate level of skill at using edges and a variety of edge turns. They're no longer required to do it on circles in school figures, and that's fine with me as long as they are still required to do it in their programs.

A skater who uses only toe steps, half jumps, simple steps on flats in a straight-line sequence, including things like lunges that require large changes of body position, and no edgework at all is lacking something that should be present in all programs, even if the step sequence as a whole is difficult to perform because of the non-skating-fundamental difficulties of the toe steps, etc.

I also think that footwork in freestyle programs is the best area for skaters to demonstrate the ability to interpret music with the whole body, and therefore I would want to encourage variety and not demand only edge steps.

The balance of different kinds of steps should be up to the skater, depending on what they feel more comfortable with or interested in and what works with the particular music they've chosen for that particular program.

But I would also like to see something like changing the short program requirements from two different-shaped step sequences for men and step sequence and spiral sequence for ladies to something like one step sequence emphasizing edge quality, extension, and advanced turns such as brackets, counters, rockers, and choctaws, and one sequence emphasizing quickness that would be encouraged to include toe steps and little jumps, for both sexes.

[AxelAnnie22]

Ellyn - thank you for the wonderful information. I really appreciate it. Also, I would agree with you regarding the change to the SP requirement. I think it would go a long way in putting back into skating some of what was lost with the decision to stop competing in figures.

[loveskating]

Hi AA:

Well, just wanted to answer that Sasha has lots of edge work in her footwork for both the SP and LP this season...look at the edgework in the Rach at about 3/5ths through (straight line footwork has to be the full length of the rink). She has both.

Whichever you do, there are also qulality issues...the footwork needs to be at speed and the turns need to be very nicely centered and with lots of musicality, and intense, IMHO.

[thvudragon]

As for foowtwork in both programs, Sasha has the hardest. She mixes toe work and edge work and does so with good speed. In terms of only the SP, Michelle's footwork is probably the most difficult. She mixes toe work with edge work and has marvelous speed. As for which is harder, I've been told by many who skate that edge work is much more difficult. It is much easier to run and do things on the toes. It only becomes difficult when you try to maintain fast and constant speed. Overall though, edge work is harder.

TV

[Kabooke]

I think Michelle's sp footwork is more difficult because as said she adds toe work and edges together in a wonderful sequence and it fits the music perfectly! Morosov had the right idea when he gave Michelle the music and some ideas for this program during the tour!

I think however, in both programs overall Sasha does have the hardest.
Although, now that Morosov is helping Kwan to refine both programs I can't wait to see what changes are made and what has evolved!

[CanadianSkater]

Being a skater myself, I would have to say that edgy footwork is much more difficult than toe pick fookwork. However the the toe steps do look good, and that is why certain skaters do them, but to have footwork with many turns and edges in different directions, etc. is a lot more challenging.

I would also like to comment on Sasha's long program footwork. The toe steps she does are very easy to perform and the turns she does are mostly three turns and mohawks. This footwork is NOT as difficult as most people think it is.

[Dustin]

Actually, from my experience toe work is just as hard as edgework. To keep the arms moving and not flailing during the quick toe work and to keep balance is not easy. Sasha's footwork is not all toe work. If you like edging, there is edges in there too (see the loop entrance into the hop near the middle).

For those skaters still skeptical - try Sasha's or Alexei's (or any other toe work for that matter) footwork - you will be suprised at the difficulty in the steps... its not as easy as you might think.

[TAF2984]

In terms of the ladies, MK has the hardest footwork in her short program not only does she have the best edges, but also great toe pick work that also flows unlike others who do this and she changes directions far more than any of them. It's also combined brillantly with fluidity and speed. I think anyone should be able to see the many directionals changes and fluidity in her footwork.

Overall for both long and short I would give it to MK. Her footwork in her long also has great changes, fluidity, and covers the ice brillantly actually I think Ellyn did a wonderful job on explaining the differences between MK's fw in her long to others in another post (somewhere on this board few eeks backmaybe I'll look for it as well) particularly explaining her long fw when it was compared to cohen's fw sequence and why MK would get the higher nod from the judges in the long as well.

[adrianchew]

From what I've seen, Alexei Yagudin's footwork is certainly a great benchmark of what the judges will reward... and Sasha's footwork being the close to what Alexei does certainly doesn't hurt. She has gotten stronger and better in performing the footwork with each competition, and one can only wonder what we might see in the coming years.

[TAF2984]

Yeah Sasha is making great strides and she's improving and improving on it. I also thought Evgeny didn't get any recognition for the marvelous fotwork sequence he had in his MJ short last season. The circular one was just jammed with difficulty and was so fast and put together so well. He had such unbelievable speed and quickness. I preferred it over everyone else's.

[icenut84]

TAF2984 - I agree about Plushenko's circular sequence in his Michael Jackson SP last season. It had great speed and was very difficult - obin Cousins was commentating for the BBC and he said that it was superb. During the replay of Alexei's straight-line footwork, he said that he had heard one or two people/judges saying that they don't really consider running on the toes footwork, they want to see real edgework, "but he does it so well and it is brilliantly done, and in the circle step he does make the feet work, they do do the edge work".

Overall, I would say a mix is good because it shows different skills, but edge footwork is harder than toe pick footwork, particularly when you do it at speed. That's why Irina got good marks for her all-on-one-foot sequence, as it was all edgework, she maintained speed throughout (NOT easy, especially when it goes all the way from one end of the ice to the other), she maintained balance without using her other foot, and it used a lot of difficult turns and edge changes. Some people (particularly some of the ladies) don't use much more than 3 turns and mohawks in their footwork, so theirs isn't as difficult. Michelle's in the past hasn't actually been particularly difficult, but I haven't seen her new programmes and I really want to now to see this new footwork everyone's been on about!

[BringontheRain]

Just to add about the running, at a critique this summer, my flight was told that many judges do NOT consider running part of the footwork so if you are running for say 1/3 of the rink, they deduct you for not having a full length fw sequence. This is at the intermediate level. Running can be used as an intro or incorporated a bit in the sequence.

[spiralsrfun]

I think both Michelle and Sasha have the class in the footwork department this season...both are very strong, and both interpret their music well. As a skater myself, I agree that fast and difficult edge work is more difficult, but doing a lot a pickwork while incorporating choreography is no walk in the park either...lol. Besides, both ladies mix edge and toepick...Michelle's is just more edgy and Sasha's more picky. (lol)

They both have done an excellent job IMO. :)

It's nice to see this happening in the women's world now.

[RobinA]

I would think that a lot of footwork difficulty would depend on the skater and the type of muscle they were born with. People with great fast twitch ability might have an easier time with the quick staccato stuff. For some people staccato just doesn't happen very easily or well. Really impressive slice 'n dice probably isn't something that is even possible for a lot of skaters.

[ginamarie]

What about the footwork that Todd Eldredge did in 'Carmina Burana', where he does a back 3 then goes on the toe into another back 3 and then on the toe again on the same foot. I heard the commentator (Peggy Fleming, I think) say that it was very difficult footwork. I think it's an interesting combination of both edge and toe footwork

And I was sitting there thinking, "If I ever got the courage to try that, I would probably end up on the ice first":oops:

Just my 2 cents worth :)

[loveskating]

IMHO, Sasha has the best footwork out there this season...particularly in the Rach, where the footwork is a real highlight of the program, and part of building the intensity of the program overall.

Last season, I thought Irina had the footwork hands down...really beautiful and on the music, nice crisp, on center turns and at good speed...I loved Kulik's SP in 98 too, I like well done serpentine foot work a lot, I agree its very difficult to do it well and takes a lot of strength.

[Breakdown787]

Talking about footworks this year in general.....yikes, it been pretty swallow for the ladies at least. I agree Michelle and Sasha are in a class of their own when in comes to this department. So far the footwork has been to simpls, lack edge work. little speed, simple turns, little expression, and sometimes uncompleted. One skater for example, as much as I love Jennifer Robinson her SP footwork section is labored and pratically consist slow simple turns around the rink. And Robinson is not the only one!!!

Now comparing to Irina, I think her footwork in the SP holds up quite well for there are some edge work and she does that one-leg technique which is quite different. However her FP doesn't had the same power, speed, of difficulty. Arakawa has decent footwork in both her SP and FP, true it's not up to Cohen statis, but it contains intricate footwork and the movement in it is superb.

Buturskaya had pretty good footwork in some of her programs (fever SP) as well as Malinina especially in her tango/spanish programs.

[TAF2984]

"IMHO, Sasha has the best footwork out there this season...particularly in the Rach, where the footwork is a real highlight of the program, and part of building the intensity of the program overall. "

Im going to have disagree here. I think it's a very good sequence, but I don't believe it goes that well with the music. Actually many have commented on this. I just don't think it fits that well with the program as a whole. I agreed with both of Dick's and Peggy's remarks on it the way Dick criticized it and the way Peggy complimented it.

This is a reason during sasha's sequence why I think it needs work a bit on difficulty from BringitontheRain:
"Just to add about the running, at a critique this summer, my flight was told that many judges do NOT consider running part of the footwork so if you are running for say 1/3 of the rink. they deduct you for not having a full length fw sequence. This is at the intermediate level. Running can be used as an intro or incorporated a bit in the sequence."

Also Ellyn's description had good reasons as well.

icenut84
You can download MK's short or even her long if you want. There are links all over. here's one http://www.jimandmaryjo.com/MK/index.html

[Aussie Willy]

No-one has mentioned the use of brackets, choctaws, twizzles and change of direction which are important when describing difficulty of footwork.

A skater can use good edges but if they are just doing mohawks and going around in circles in the same direction then that is not really technically difficult. As a skater myself when I do a footwork sequence I always try to put some changes of direction just to make it more interesting instead of going in the direction I usually feel comfortable in.

Someone mentioned Irina's footwork from last season. Irina in my opinion probably does the best footwork of all the ladies. Her one foot step staightline step sequence had lots of twists and turns, with a few brackets thrown in for good measure, and changes of direction all done at good speed. Very difficult indeed.

As for toe steps, I admire anyone who can do them well. I hate doing toe steps myself - they totally freak me out and I just worry about tripping up. I think the best toe work I ever saw was Wilson & McCall's Joplin program in 88.

[icesk8rchiq]

I watched Sasha's SP and looked especially at the footwork. She has a LOT of the staccato toepick steps in it, which are hard, in my opinion. The brackets, and mohawks, etc., that she has in it aren't that hard, considering you see Intermediate ladies doing the same turns in their programs. I think the toe steps Sasha does are quite difficult, because it is so easy to get tangled up, or lose your balance while doing those. Both programs contain a lot of stops in the footwork.
As for the LP, I'm watching it as we speak, so I apologize for any mistakes...
In the beginning she has the stops with the arm movements, and toe pick steps.Then she has the bracket/mohawk-type-things that we've seen in all of her programs. Then she has chene-type turns on the toepicks, and she then turns the other way and does 2 or 3 picks. Then she does a 3-turn into an attitude jump. Then she "runs" on her toepicks, 3-turn into what looks like a 2-foot 3-turn, and then more of the bracket/mohawk things...
After looking at both, it looks like she really doesn't have a ton of edge-using elements, and does a ton of toe-pick things. Even though she doesn't have a ton of edge things in her footwork, if you watch the rest of her programs, she uses them nicely.

[icesk8rchiq]

Originally posted by Aussie Willy
No-one has mentioned the use of brackets, choctaws, twizzles and change of direction which are important when describing difficulty of footwork.

A skater can use good edges but if they are just doing mohawks and going around in circles in the same direction then that is not really technically difficult. As a skater myself when I do a footwork sequence I always try to put some changes of direction just to make it more interesting instead of going in the direction I usually feel comfortable in.

As for toe steps, I admire anyone who can do them well. I hate doing toe steps myself - they totally freak me out and I just worry about tripping up. I think the best toe work I ever saw was Wilson & McCall's Joplin program in 88.

ITA about the mohawks, brackets, etc. Just to pass Intermediate moves, you have to do brackets, and considering the people we are talking about are in Junior and Senior, they really should have much more advanced footwork.

[TheIceKing]

As a competitive figure skater I can say edgy footworkd is much harder. Toe-pic/toe work footwork isn't easy at all, but not as hard. The best footwork is a combo of both toe work, and edges. Michelle's short program this year, shows that beautifully. Sasha does amazing toe work this year, which while difficult is easier then what Michelle has shown in the short program.

[armchairsk8r]

Hey- Ice King did you compete at Jr. Nationals this year. When I was in Lake Placid their was a guy who had a big lion on his door with a sign that said "ice king", I was just wondering if that was you?

[TheIceKing]

Originally posted by armchairsk8r
Hey- Ice King did you compete at Jr. Nationals this year. When I was in Lake Placid their was a guy who had a big lion on his door with a sign that said "ice king", I was just wondering if that was you?

Nope...wasn't there...but sounds like a guy after my own heart! Although...I am the one and only Ice King ;)

[dbny]

Originally posted by icesk8rchiq
ITA about the mohawks, brackets, etc. Just to pass Intermediate moves, you have to do brackets, and considering the people we are talking about are in Junior and Senior, they really should have much more advanced footwork.

Yes, but when the elite competitive skaters do brackets, counters, rockers etc they just float over the ice apparently effortlessly. I've seen Intermediate and Novice skaters pass their moves tests, and the quality required is not at all the same. It is not just the difficulty of the moves that is impressive to me, but also the sublime execution of same.

[icesk8rchiq]

Originally posted by TheIceKing
As a competitive figure skater I can say edgy footworkd is much harder. Toe-pic/toe work footwork isn't easy at all, but not as hard. The best footwork is a combo of both toe work, and edges. Michelle's short program this year, shows that beautifully. Sasha does amazing toe work this year, which while difficult is easier then what Michelle has shown in the short program.

I agree, and after watching Sasha's programs closely, it is quite evident. I am also a skater, and I would have to agree on the fact that edgy skating is harder than using toepicks a lot... though it really depends on the skater, I guess. I think Sasha's footwork looks harder than it is, and was put in mainly to make the programs exciting, and not necessarily technically difficult.

[annm72]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22:
I am not talking about what people like, but rather which is more difficult to execute, and which (if either) receives a higher base score.

I think Sasha's footwork is exciting. I really love the arm movements she does at the beginning of the LP straight-line footwork. I, for one, like Yagudin-esque footwork. That being said, I believe that MK's footwork is both more difficult to execute and will receive a higher base mark based on the myriad of reasons listed above by other posters.

Without even a blow-by-blow comparison in the SP, I think MK's would come out on top due to Sasha's footwork receiving a mandatory deduction for not going from end to end. I hope Tarasova fixes this by Nationals(i'm sure she will:D ). Don't get me wrong. Even without the deduction, I think the difficulty, speed, and sureness of MK's footwork in the SP would come out on top. That's the best straight-line footwork that I have seen from a lady in a long time. :bow:

In the LP, I think Sasha's footwork is more exciting while MK's is more "free" and more difficult. I do think that we will see a change(to spice it up)in MK's LP footwork by Nationals since Morosov is fine-tuning her programs.

I'm just glad that we have two elite ladies skaters that are paying so much attention to the choreography and execution of their footwork sequences. It has always been one of my favorite parts of a program. I would also like to add,that since I haven't seen Irina's SP, I can't compare it to MK's and Sasha's. Irina is also able to deliver top-notch footwork.

[loveskating]

Hadn't noticed that Sasha doesn't go from one end to the other...hmmm.

I wouldn't mind a blow by blow since most of us have not seen MK's footwork.

[Lee]

Originally posted by loveskating
Hadn't noticed that Sasha doesn't go from one end to the other...hmmm. I noticed this at the Sears Open. She started a good 15 - 20 feet in from the boards -- well in front of where the goal crease would be for hockey (our seats were directly alongside where she started). I remember commenting to sulin at the time that it was probably more than enough to warrant a deduction.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Lee

I noticed this at the Sears Open. She started a good 15 - 20 feet in from the boards -- well in front of where the goal crease would be for hockey (our seats were directly alongside where she started). I remember commenting to sulin at the time that it was probably more than enough to warrant a deduction.

I noticed that too when I watched Sears Open on tape. The week after at Crest Challenge though, she covered close to the full length of the ice.

[Skatingsarah]

In My Opinion I would have to say EDGES! I'm not saying that the toe work is easy but edges are so much more appealing to me. They work in and out and it takes alot more balence. Of course on the edge footworks you can cover up a loss of balence but on the toe sequences...WATCH OUT :?? !6 words! SASHA COHEN SHORT PROGRAM SKATE CANADA oops..!8O
-Sarah

[adrianchew]

From what I've been told, the timing on toework to the music is far harder to do... with edgework you can take a lot of the music for granted, but doing the toe steps to the tempo of the music, together with arm movements... that's what makes a great step sequence IMO.

I wasn't sure if this was a good move for Sasha at first to use Yagudin style footwork back when I saw her doing it the 1st time at the ISI Benefit show in August - it took tons of concentration and didn't feel natural at all. Glad to see her now getting used to it - this is a step towards even more exciting footwork and chereography in the future years IMO.

I would say the most impressive footwork I've ever seen myself in singles figure skating ever, is Aleksei Yagudin's Crazy Benny program. I've seen Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, Todd Eldredge live this season too - none of them come close IMO. Just hoping Sasha will continue the work with Tarasova and maybe get some ideas from Yagudin too - by the time 2006 comes, we should be in for quite some excitement! 8-)

[annm72]

loveskating, here is the link to Michelle's SP since you haven't seen it. It's on Cruella de Kwan's video page. Go down the page until you see The Feeling Begins. Michelle's LP is also on this page.

http://jimandmaryjo.com/MK/index.html

Since I haven't seen Irina's SP, I wish someone had a link to hers. :cry:

Originally posted by adrianchew:
I noticed that too when I watched Sears Open on tape. The week after at Crest Challenge though, she covered close to the full length of the ice.

To clear up my earlier post, I commented that Sasha's SP footwork would probably receive a deduction since it did not go end to end. I got this from a host of different live reports and from my viewing of the Sears Open competition and it is about her SP ONLY. Her LP footwork does go basically from end to end and I wasn't commenting on that(and there wouldn't be a mandatory deduction in the long anyways). Adrian, I think you must have misunderstood me since the Crest Challenge competition that you referred to above, I believe, only had her LP. I wasn't refering to her LP at all.

[adrianchew]

annm72 - the SP footwork has been fine at other occasions but definitely was short at Sears Open. I guess she didn't hold the Charlotte long enough and wasn't in the right spot for the footwork at Sears Open.

[annm72]

I'm glad to hear that her footwork not going from end to end was just a mistake from her Sears Open SP. Tarasova seems to be on top of that kind of thing and I was getting confused :?: on why it wasn't corrected. I must admit that the only SP that I have recorded from Sasha is the Sears Open. I did watch the program one time during the Grand Prix broadcasts but I can't remember anything but general impressions that far back. ;)

This thread is getting me all excited about Nationals!!

[adrianchew]

Well at Skate Canada she didn't get to finish the footwork... that whoops at the end... :oops:

It still might be safer if they modified the footwork slightly though - make sure she uses the max amount of ice. Will see what happens by the time Nationals comes... I can't wait too!

[TAF2984]

"Hadn't noticed that Sasha doesn't go from one end to the other...hmmm.

I wouldn't mind a blow by blow since most of us have not seen MK's footwork."

You haven't even seen her fw then how were you making your remarks before on all the ladies?

"I wasn't sure if this was a good move for Sasha at first to use Yagudin style footwork back when I saw her doing it the 1st time at the ISI Benefit show in August - it took tons of concentration and didn't feel natural at all. "

Well Alexei isn't the beginning and ending of great footwork sequences. Evgeny also has great footwork and his circular footwork was quite impressive in the short last year just because someone choses to go on Alexei's route doesn't mean it makes it harder or the only standard. Alexei also does his sequence a lot faster, more speed, and more steps than what others are mimicking doing.

"From what I've been told, the timing on toework to the music is far harder to do... with edgework you can take a lot of the music for granted, but doing the toe steps to the tempo of the music, together with arm movements... that's what makes a great step sequence IMO."

Im going to have to disagree especially with looking at sasha's beginning work on rach. The toework in the beginning is repetitive and so are the arm movements and there isn't as much toework there that people are stating. She goes right into her edgework.

The same goes for the short were she does the toework. they stop and then go and it's rather repetitive maybe if there was speed continuing throughout it like MK does in the toework part of hers then I'll agree. I also disagree about taking the music for granted while doing edgework as well.
I also cannot wait until nationals.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by TAF2984

Well Alexei isn't the beginning and ending of great footwork sequences. Evgeny also has great footwork and his circular footwork was quite impressive in the short last year just because someone choses to go on Alexei's route doesn't mean it makes it harder or the only standard. Alexei also does his sequence a lot faster, more speed, and more steps than what others are mimicking doing.

No - it is not the beginning and ending - but for me, it represents the best ever. A matter of preference. His performances at Sears Open and Hallmark that constantly gets those high marks from the judges is indicative that the judges appreciate his footwork and certainly reward him with those marks.

And I for one am not going to disagree with the judges - no matter what fans prefer to see, the judges marks count the most. I've seen Michelle's footwork and I disagree its nearly as good as people make it sound to be. So let's agree to disagree. ;)

More important is what will happen at Nationals - that might provide us with some ideas about how the US judges will look at the differences in the skaters. ;)

[Rachel]

Originally posted by adrianchew
And I for one am not going to disagree with the judges - no matter what fans prefer to see, the judges marks count the most. I've seen Michelle's footwork and I disagree its nearly as good as people make it sound to be. So let's agree to disagree. ;)

More important is what will happen at Nationals - that might provide us with some ideas about how the US judges will look at the differences in the skaters. ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not say this just a few months ago?

My personal hope is only that the judging at these events will be done fairly, and no skater be held up based on past accomplishments. . . .I'm stating this early, since I certainly understand if Michelle is not as fully prepared as her competition, and they could possibly outskate her. At that point, we can only hope that the judging be fair.

So....are you saying that now, no matter what the judges do at Nationals, you will accept that as right and just, whether the results match your personal preferences or not?

And didn't you also say something to the effect that an audience filled with people who skate would look for different things than an audience filled with mere fans? Now correct me if I'm wrong again, but are there not several skaters on this thread saying the MK's footwork is harder, while it's mostly fans who are saying that Sasha's is?

I'm not trying to pin you in a corner here, exactly, just trying to clarify your positions for future reference.

[TAF2984]

"No - it is not the beginning and ending - but for me, it represents the best ever. A matter of preference. His performances at Sears Open and Hallmark that constantly gets those high marks from the judges is indicative that the judges appreciate his footwork and certainly reward him with those marks."

I already said Alexei has great footwork and yes he does some of the best in the world. There's NO disagreement there. I am just stating that He is not the only one who does great footwork which is why I mentioned Evegeny's wonderful circular footwork in MJ short last season, and just because he does great fw and is the OC does not make it the only way and that does not mean that he is only being placed in first because of his footwork especially seeing Evgeny dominated him in the short for quite awhile until the OG.

The judges are judging the complete package not just footwork and also the footwork Alexei did in Hallmark was not the standard footwork sequence he usually does especially the one sequence where he did the same toework across the ice which was not nearly his hardest and was repetitive it was meant more for impact than anything and It certainly did work!

"And I for one am not going to disagree with the judges - no matter what fans prefer to see, the judges marks count the most. I've seen Michelle's footwork and I disagree its nearly as good as people make it sound to be. So let's agree to disagree. "

MK's footwork will get the nod overall over anyone this season. Many have provided great reasons in this thread and Ellyn before in another one. I don't understand where this disagreeing with judges comes from either or what fans prefer to see. MK only skated her short at SA and she got good marks. The best ones for a clean short.

[adrianchew]

I've spoken to other skaters and gotten different answers from each other. At this point - its very likely the footwork sequences from both Michelle and Sasha are going to be viewed on pretty comparably by the judges... and that it will likely come to other factors in the program to determine the winner.

I can't quite say what the judges will go for - I suspect we'll see split ordinals should both Michelle and Sasha skate their short programs clean. Not all skaters have attempted intricate toework either - just because some say its easier, it doesn't mean it necessarily is. Its what the judges will reward more that's going to be interesting to see.

Several skaters and fans speaking on the topic speak of personal preferences - preferring to see edgework to toework. I'm just saying that I truly enjoy the toework that Aleksei does as a matter of personal preference. That the judges also seem to like and reward it makes it a good thing for skaters to consider making a part of their programs.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by TAF2984

MK's footwork will get the nod overall over anyone this season. Many have provided great reasons in this thread and Ellyn before in another one. I don't understand where this disagreeing with judges comes from either or what fans prefer to see. MK only skated her short at SA and she got good marks. The best ones for a clean short.

Marks from one competition cannot be compared to another competition. That's a given in the sport... the marks are relative to the competition.

Irina, Sarah, Sasha, Yoshie, etc were not at Skate America... its a whole different range of marks you might see at Nationals or Worlds.

[TAF2984]

I know the marks are relative, but there are still mandatory deductions in the short and specific things that the judges look for in a short that challenge that notion of relativity. The relativity really applies more to the long IMHO even though it's still there for the short especially regarding the required element marks.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by adrianchew
I'm just saying that I truly enjoy the toework that Aleksei does as a matter of personal preference. That the judges also seem to like and reward it makes it a good thing for skaters to consider making a part of their programs.

But how can you tell that the judges favor the footwork, especially? The crowd loves it and really gets going when he takes off down the ice, but the judges' marks don't come with specific breakdowns for elements--at least not yet. It's not as if Alexei has nothing else to offer in his skating, or that he wasn't winning titles BEFORE he started running down the ice on his toes. So how do you know what the judges are rewarding when they reward a skater with high marks? As you said, the judges SEEM to like it, but there is no way of knowing whether they really do or not, or whether they like it more than, say, Plushy's.

Which means that unless Michelle and Sasha perform identically in all other respects (which is highly unlikely), none of us will have the slightest idea whose footwork in particular gets the highest marks. Now if the judges were to speak out and state a preference after the competition, well, then, we would have something concrete to go on. But we all know that isn't going to happen.

[Hannahclear]

My coaches are ice dancers, and they're perspective is that toe work is impressive to look at but very short on substance. It's a crowd pleaser, but does not compare to a mix of edges and toe work.....

of course, are we surprised that ice dancers would have this opinion? ;)

[Badams]

i wonder if some of the opinions here would be different if sasha was doing mostly edge work and michelle mostly toe work? :lol:

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Badams
i wonder if some of the opinions here would be different if sasha was doing mostly edge work and michelle mostly toe work? :lol:

I'd sum it up differently:

So far, it was posted and seems that MK has an entirely new footwork section she has worked out with Morosov since Skate America, who also apparently chreographed most of Sasha's footwork sections in both her SP and LP.

Most of us have thus not seen MK's new footwork...of the footwork that we have seen, it seems most think Sasha's is the best and for numerous reasons, among them that it is a highlight, part of what builds the intensity of the LP, in particular, but the SP as well.

As to which is harder, edgework or pick work, people with equal credibillty and knowledge seem to be fairly equally divided on that issue...most, however, seem to prefer a good mix.

Personally, I used to prefer edgework (say, Kulik vs. Browning)...but that was BEFORE I saw Alexi Yagudin's Gladiator...and there I thought he took the roof off ...and it wasn't just the athleticism of it (and so late in the program), but how it was a wonderful expression of the meaning of the music...which means, I guess, put me down generally on the side of preferring a good mix, given a piece of music that demands it.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by loveskating
I'd sum it up differently:

So far, it was posted and seems that MK has an entirely new footwork section she has worked out with Morosov since Skate America, who also apparently chreographed most of Sasha's footwork sections in both her SP and LP.

Most of us have thus not seen MK's new footwork...of the footwork that we have seen, it seems most think Sasha's is the best and for numerous reasons, among them that it is a highlight, part of what builds the intensity of the LP, in particular, but the SP as well.

As to which is harder, edgework or pick work, people with equal credibillty and knowledge seem to be fairly equally divided on that issue...most, however, seem to prefer a good mix.


First of all, Morozov contributed to MK's footwork before SA, as I understand it, and has been helping her fine tune it, rather than completely re-choreograghing it.

The discussion thus far has focused on comparing Sasha's footwork for the season with MK's footwork at SA, in any case, so it doesn't matter what MK's new footwork looks like. The comparison is between two known footwork sections.

As for people with equal credibility being divided......I guess it depends on what you consider credibility.

Edited for cursed TYPO!

[icesk8rchiq]

Originally posted by Skatingsarah
In My Opinion I would have to say EDGES! I'm not saying that the toe work is easy but edges are so much more appealing to me. They work in and out and it takes alot more balence. Of course on the edge footworks you can cover up a loss of balence but on the toe sequences...WATCH OUT :?? !6 words! SASHA COHEN SHORT PROGRAM SKATE CANADA oops..!8O
-Sarah

in the short program at skate canada she fell on edges... not toe work

[LilRedRidingHood]

But it seems to me, the skaters here have have responded. And collectively, they seem to be saying edgework is more difficult than toe work.

I have to say, Sasha's is exciting, but if SKATER's [ not parents of, fans of, friends of, or people surveyed in a poll] think that edge work is more difficult, I have to agree. I mean really, who knows more?

Not me, I think. :oops:

Some things are subjective, others are not. I think the SKATERS answer with the most insight.

[inthezone]

Originally posted by loveskating
As to which is harder, edgework or pick work, people with equal credibillty and knowledge seem to be fairly equally divided on that issue...most, however, seem to prefer a good mix.


Agreed, though, I personally prefer mainly edgework with toe work used as highlights in between. Edgework is a lot harder to control than toework, the edge can flip easily, compared to toework where the toe can't move until removed. Edgework also generally has more speed, and more flow. That's not to say toework is a walk in the park, it isn't, it doesn't move across the ice as fast, but definitely requires more agility.

If comparing Sasha and Michelle, Michelle has many more turns, and the turns are mostly on edges, which is harder to do. She also has variety in direction and edges, as well as good flow and speed in the toework she does do. Sasha, however, has a more complex sequence, but there is a lack of flow and continuity because of the start/stop stuff. Personally I'd give the edge to Michelle, but it's quite debatable.

Also, concerning ice coverage, Sasha does cover the ice well in her straight line in the free skate, but in the short program, she does stop the charlotte and start the footwork a bit away from the boards. I think this is more of a choreographical error in that because the charlotte is before the footwork, she doesn't want to crash into the boards, nor does she want to look back at the boards to get to the end and disrupt the program.

I think I've talked enough now. :D

[icesk8rchiq]

Originally posted by LilRedRidingHood
But it seems to me, the skaters here have have responded. And collectively, they seem to be saying edgework is more difficult than toe work.

I have to say, Sasha's is exciting, but if SKATER's [ not parents of, fans of, friends of, or people surveyed in a poll] think that edge work is more difficult, I have to agree. I mean really, who knows more?

Not me, I think. :oops:

Some things are subjective, others are not. I think the SKATERS answer with the most insight.

Great post!

[Dustin]

Originally posted by inthezone
Edgework is a lot harder to control than toework, the edge can flip easily, compared to toework where the toe can't move until removed... If comparing Sasha and Michelle, Michelle has many more turns, and the turns are mostly on edges, which is harder to do.

Actually, turns on toes are very difficult, especially fast, quick, running turns. It isn't easy to keep balance, especially with the arms expressing the music. Twizzles (which I have seen taught to kids in pre-prelimnary) and hop turns on edges are easier - or at least they are to me.

The concept that edgework is overall harder to control will never be decided upon - it is totally different for each skater. Michelle and Irina may find edges easier. Sasha and Alexei may find toework easier.

And I agree with the ones who said a combination of edges and toework are the best, lucky for Alexei, Michelle, Sasha, Irina, and the others with above average footwork, their sequences all contain a variety of both.

[thvudragon]

Hands down, MK has the hardest footwork in the SP. She turns in both directions ON EDGES. Her footwork is also very fast and mixes toe work with edgework. And most importantly, she covers ice very well. It is a "fact" that Michelle has the hardest footwork in the SP this season. The LP is open to opinion. At the moment, I think Sasha has the hardest footwork in the LP. Since Morosov is probably going to change the footwork in LP, my opinion will change. And yes, morosov choreograph MK's footwork in the SP, contrary to what some think. He was the one who gave her the music in the first place.

TV

[loveskating]

Well, Sasha turns in both directions on edges.

As to the footwork, I doubt if anyone would claim that there are huge "hands down" differences between, in general, the footwork of Michelle, Irina and Sasha...as is the case with the top skaters, often there are nuances which make the relatively minor difference in a given competition significant.

IMHO, in that light, Sasha has the footwork from those I've seen so far this season, and as executed, similarly as I thought Irina had it last season. It was posted that MK's footwork was different than at Skate America...if not, then I didin't notice anything remarkable about Kwan's footwork at Skate America, although in general, she is good on the footwork, fast, crisp, difficult.

But its not all reducible to how many turns...its also a matter of how the footwork is constructed in the program, and executed...is it crisp, fast and musical or is the skater holding back, off the music, is the footwork a real hightlight...as was the case with Yagudin's Gladiator and as is the case, I think, with Sasha's Rach?

Some of that varies from competition to competition...even for the likes of Kurt Browning.

[AxelAnnie22]

Great discussion.

I was really most interested in which type of footwork is ranked as more difficult, and scored higher than the judges. I am not so interested in whether skater X has a more difficult sequence than skater Y.

Does anyone really know?

[inthezone]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Great discussion.

I was really most interested in which type of footwork is ranked as more difficult, and scored higher than the judges. I am not so interested in whether skater X has a more difficult sequence than skater Y.

Does anyone really know?

Personally, I'd say that they're both so close in the footwork that it's not enough to make a difference of even .1 in the technical mark. But they are both heads above the rest of the competition in the footwork and basically everything else in the SP, though I liked what I saw from Sarah at Hallmark. I haven't seen Irina's short though, but if it's like what she's been doing the last few years, her footwork on one foot is, at least IMO, a few notches below both Sasha and Michelle.

Well, Sasha turns in both directions on edges.

So do most skaters, but she doesn't do many. And not on secure, obvious edges. You can say she does a lot, but that doesn't mean she does as much or as well as other skaters.

But its not all reducible to how many turns...its also a matter of how the footwork is constructed in the program, and executed...is it crisp, fast and musical or is the skater holding back, off the music, is the footwork a real hightlight...as was the case with Yagudin's Gladiator and as is the case, I think, with Sasha's Rach?

All of that factors in the presentation mark, though I doubt the judges consider just the footwork sequence's relation to the music. I also doubt a skater's holding back or not would affect anything. And for the record, I don't think footwork is a highlight in Sasha's Rach, more of a brief disruption, and then goes back to the beauty of the program.

[uyeahu]

I think Sasha's footwork could be considered comparable to Michelle's if it moved out more quickly, but even though she's taking quick steps, she's not covering much ice with any of them. Michelle actually starts strong and continues to gain speed and momentum as she goes, coming out of the footwork sequence faster than she entered it.

[hiliairyh]

I think toe pick work looks harder, and edge work looks easier. In reality toe work is easier than edge work. I like Yags staccato steps when he first unveiled it, but I hope he will explore more edge work. I think he has quickness, not sure about his overall speed across the ice. I guess the nature of stattaco steps is the stop and start, it is hard to judge the overall speed.

I love Abt's footwork, long sweeping deep edges with speed. Yuka Sato has the best footwork among ladies. Watch her 1994 long program, she went round and around the rink many times covering a lot of ice in minimal time, that is speed. Bezic is always in awe of Yuka's edge work, "look how Yuka flies".

I agree it is good to mix up the pick and edge work in a program.