What is your opinion on this new find about the judging system?

[FSWer]

Hey gang. I heard on the NHK Trophy Highligts that after a few months the judging scandle is back in the news, and they say thay waht we really have is just honost judges, not a new judging system. I also think they kind of read my mind. Because I was thinking how does anyone know a cheating judge wasn't chosen at random by the computer? Or for that matter, how would ramdom judging even keep a judge from cheating? What they need to do is do something to kep judges from cheating for sure. As well as making the scale easy to read. Any other opinions?

[Emilieanne]

You're right when you say that a new judging system is not going to solve the ethics problems. The ONLY way those will be solved is for severe penalties for malfeasance to be in place and vigorously enforced. Although this sounds simple, it is the most effective...and EVERYONE knows this is what is really required...even the ISU knows this. :frus: However, I do not see the ISU stepping up to this plate any time soon and doing what is required, even though that is precisely what they ought to do (and they even know that is what they should do)...and we all know that as well. :frus: :frus: Why won't they? I can explain that quite simply...too many of the most strategically placed powers-that-be are more interested in "schmoozing" and living the lavish lifestyle that comes with their so-called position than in doing any actual work... and doing what is necessary to restore (and then maintain) the integrity of figure skating requires real work and putting the personal nonsense aside. :halo: :mrgreen:

[donnamarie]

I agree that the current system makes cheating easier, not harder, although there have been some interesting results so far, so perhaps it makes honest voting easier, too, for some judges. The point is, we never know and we will never know with this system what is going on. Thankfully this system is only temporary.

I agree that what is needed is zero tolerance for cheating, with serious consequences. But I don't think the current leadership of the ISU will do this unless pushed into a corner, as they were at Olympics. To allow blatantly cheating judges to continue judging speaks volumes - it says clearly that cheating is okay and will be tolerated. Many people have articulated the changes that are needed, but how does one topple a powerful body once they have power? Not easily. The ISU as currently formulated will not police itself adequately.

[loveskating]

I have mixed feelings...I don't think getting rid of every judge that is accused will help, because it is so easy to accuse anyone, and it is apparently far easier to accuse someone from the "east" than otherwise, since all the accusations, except recently one, have been in that direction. From what I know, Senft did not have the evidence to back up her accusations against Balkov, for instance, who claimed he was merely discussing with her whom he thought to be the best skaters in general. Also, given what I have seen with my own eyes, its not just the "east" that cheats, the "west" does too.

Apparently there are no standards of behavior even in place (but now some committee is charged to draw one up, based on the USFSA's demand for lifetime banning...but the USFSA had no code or rules to propose at the time). Once there is a standard code that applies to all, I think there will be more serious punishments. To impose punishments on an arbitrary basis would be very wrong, as well.

How do you weigh or balance the statistical unfairness vs. the attacks against the judges by virtually every skater and their fan base in a close call for the past 20 years (ALL of which have been by the "west" v. the "east"), which utterly destroys the credibility of the sport as well? The only charge of unfairness coming from the "east" that went outside the perview of the ISU that I am aware of concerned Irina at SLC.

What difference will the new marking system have on the statistical unfairness built in, if any? What I really like about the proposed marking system is the expert which certifies the element completed and the unification of value for elements and their quality.

[Emilieanne]

What is needed is for the ISU to be backed into a corner where ethical standards and severe consequences for malfeasance would be their only way out of that corner...and vigorous enforcement of same would be necessary to never be put in such a corner again:!:

:idea: Anyone of you out there have ANY ideas about what could motivate them to do such a thing :?: :?: As we all know, we need help and we need it now:!::frus:

[donnamarie]

<< I don't think getting rid of every judge that is accused will help, because it is so easy to accuse anyone, and it is apparently far easier to accuse someone from the "east" than otherwise, since all the accusations, except recently one, have been in that direction. >>

I haven't ever heard anyone say we should "get rid of every judge that is accused." That would be insupportable and nobody advocates that. But there have been judges who have been convicted of cheating, even caught on camera, who have been allowed to return to judging after a brief suspension. When cheating is taken so lightly, and when known cheaters are able to continue judging, then the message is clear that cheating will be tolerated.

If the "east" has not accused the "west" of cheating, as you put it, perhaps that's because no evidence has surfaced of the "west" cheating. I am sure that if such evidence was available, the "east" would surely put it forth.

<< Also, given what I have seen with my own eyes, its not just the "east" that cheats, the "west" does too. >>

I don't see how any viewer can determine that any judge has cheated just by watching television and perhaps not agreeing with the marks. There are sometimes questionable marks given to skaters of all nationalities, however that does not equate to cheating. That could just be national bias, cultural variety, or honest differences of opinion. When I speak of cheating, I refer to real cheating: deal making, prearranged judging, illegal communication between judges, and fixing the results in advance, which has been proven and for which evidence has been provided. People have even been convicted, and yet are allowed to continue judging. I think there need to be real consequences for proven cases of cheating. Basically I don't think that such people should ever be allowed to judge again.

[Emilieanne]

Donnamarie, I totally agree (and I think most everyone on this board does as well) that there needs to be severe consequences that are vigorously enforced for malfeasance. Although the ISU does have provisions for exclusion (Rule 104, point 16), it is vague and certainly does not define "misconduct." The big question here is "what would motivate the ISU to not only clearly define misconduct and vigorously enforce the rules that presently exist...but to also enact AND enforce stronger measures to put an end to this mess?

As we all know, it was clearly proven in Salt Lake that the IOC can very effectively motivate the ISU to take action. The IOC obviously made the ISU an offer it could not refuse (I wish I knew how it succeeded in doing that!). Unfortunately, I do not see any other way for this mess to be cleaned up without extreme pressure from the IOC. However, the IOC has made it clear that it is not going to interfere in how any international federation conducts its internal business. It CAN, however, mandate that certain standards are met and leave it up to the international federation to figure out how it is going to meet those standards.

Do any of you out there have any ideas whatsoever as to what could be effective motivation for the ISU to "get with the program?"