Frank, fix Angela's spins please

[Aaron W]

I expected when Nikodinov switched to Carroll as her coach last year that he'd fix her problems of often not completing the required number of revolutions on the spins in the short program. But that doesn't seem to have happened. In her short program at the Canadian Open she either just barely got in the required number of revs on the flying camel or missed it by a half turn (it was hard to tell with the change of camera angle). Then on the combination spin it's way too basic and she rarely ever does the required number of revs on the back portion of the spin. You have to start counting when the skater hits the actual position which means the judges would start counting when she bottomed out the sit spin position (stopped going down and rested into the position). From that point until she began coming up out of the spin she only completed 5 rotations at most. The requirement is 6 on the front and 6 on the back and she didn't meet the requirement on the back portion. She rarely ever does.

I really think Angela needs to go back to her combination spin from the 98/99 season. It had more positions and keeps her from shortening it up too much. Doing just a camel/layback and back sit is just too basic.

[LadyNit]

:( I couldn't even watch all of her SP at the Canadian Open. I was watching her performance on my Dishplayer and just had to start skipping forward as she dropped element after element.

Does she really want to win? Does she really have any competitive heart left in her? I just don't see it. It was there for a moment last year...but now...:(

[Toepoint]

I don't see any changes since she has been working with Frank. She looked like the same sad Angela. I think Frank needs to work on her confidence. :cry:

[nymkfan51]

I love Angela as a person ... I just don't think she has what it takes to compete at this level. I was really hoping that this would be a good year for her, but unfortunately it seems same old, same old.

[hydro]

While her SP was disappointing, i have to say that Angela's LP was really beautiful. She did incorporate some new spin variations which fit perfectly with the music. i think the new LP, if skated clean, will be a show-stopper. its probably the best choreographed LP this season.

Props to Lori Nichols. I haven't liked any of her choreography this season (i've actually hated a lot of it - Tim's program is awful and what was she thinking with Fumie?), but Angela's LP is gorgeous.

[adrianchew]

While we're on stuff that needs fixing - doubling a jump is one thing, but the edge out of the doubled 2-flip was horrible (can you say scratchy?). Then during the setup for a 2-axel where she seems to be gliding, once again you can hear scratchy edges! 8O

[Spinner]

Just an observation here....

Angela is a brilliant skater. In practices and warm-ups at last year's nationals in LA she commanded the ice--never missed a jump and rarely popped anything. Her technique is wonderful and edging is quite nice. But...she is a poor competitor. Get her in front of judges and she seems to unravel. If they'd judge practice ice Angela would be a champ quite a bit....sigh...

[Toepoint]

Maybe she should turn professional. Although even as a professional you need to land some jumps. She is just letting all the up & coming Americans jump ahead of her. She was in the spotlight before Sarah & Sasha, but they have learned to seize the moment.:oops:

[haribobo]

I do not believe that Angela is an overall poor competitor. I don't think it is the pressure of competition that is her problem. There are tons of skaters who are great competitors that miss jumps they can land in practice. She is an inconsitent competitor at times, yes. I sometimes question her will to win when you compare her to Kwan, Cohen, and Hughes, who go out like gangbusters just about every time hell-bent on nailing every jump in the program. But for the amount of clean short programs she has skated in the past 5 years and judging by the number of top 5 finishes at Nationals she has had, I simply cannot accept the statement that this young lady doesn't know how to compete. I think she knows how, and when she is at her best, well-trained, and injury free, this young lady almost always produces. It is unfortunate that this happens so rarely for this great talent...it might be possible that she lacks the discipline of some others. It does seem that perhaps there is an issue of confidence in ability to land the jumps when she is not in top shape. I believe the only time she was both physically and mentally in peak condition was at 2001 U.S. Nationals. She has been close a number of other times. If Angela intends to make another world team, she must do whatever it takes to get herself back into the shape she was in at '01 Nationals. Because when she's in tip top shape, her confidence is high and there are so few that can beat her. Based on the amount of time her recent injury took away from her training, and her general sluggish recovery time from injuries (whether that's her fault or not can be debated forever), I don't anticipate seeing the unbeatable Angela in time for Nationals. What she must do for Nationals is skate as well as she can to achieve a victory for herself to know that she put in her best effort. If she can hit the top 6 and medal at 4CC, I will consider that a major step for her on the road to recovery.

So perhaps Angela is not the competitor that Michelle, Sasha, and Sarah are. I think though that she does know how to compete, and if she wants it bad enough and manages to avoid injuries, we will see the real competitive Angela come out to fight again. If not, well, thanks for the memories. I do hope she can manage to give the favorites a run for their money a few more times though before she calls it quits. When she's great, she's not only nice to watch, she actually *inspires*....at least for me.

[Spinner]

Hmm, first you say...
Originally posted by haribobo
I do not believe that Angela is an overall poor competitor.
and then a few sentences later say...
I think she knows how, and when she is at her best, well-trained, and injury free, this young lady almost always produces. It is unfortunate that this happens so rarely for this great talent.
Seems you may have contradicted yourself.

First off, I'll qualify my earilier statement to be descriptive of her jumping. That being said, I guess we define what a good (or even great) competitor is differently. To me, a good competitor will fight for everything and 'go out like gangbusters' as you said. Angela is unfortunately known for doubling many of her jumps instead of trying for the triples--something a fighting competitor wouldn't do. A good competitor will put on that game face, hit the ice and skate the whole competition with the 'I will win' attitude (see Kat Witt in her competitve days ;)). Angela--to me--often starts to look scared and giving up as her programs progress.

I've been a fan of Angela's since she broke into the elite level in the late '90s and her layback will always be one of my favorite skating moves ever. I would LOVE for her to do well more often and win competitions. Hopefully she can find a way to the confidence that will make her that great competitor she can be.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by haribobo

I think she knows how, and when she is at her best, well-trained, and injury free, this young lady almost always produces.

That's the problem - Angela is what you would call a "fair weather skater"... give her sunshine, the coach that does what she wants and expects out of a coach, no injuries - they she can produce. Put a little cloud like even missing a jump, and the whole show is over.

Michelle Kwan, Tara Lipinski, Aleksei Yagudin have all produced results - even when they are not as well-trained and injured (Kwan at '98 Nats, Tara in '98 Olys given her hip problems, Aleksei currently).

What seperates the "merely good" from the "truly great" is the ability to produce under pressure, in tough conditions, when you're possibly not at your very best. Even Sarah admits she's not in top form but her performance at Crest and Hallmark is at least well fought for.

Angela lacks competitiveness - Jenny Kirk may have a rough season but she's fighting. I don't see that from Angela. I'm not willing to hold any spots or root for skaters that aren't serious about working towards their goals. The US ladies field is so deep and talented, there are just better candidates that should get assignments to stuffs like 4CCs and so on.

[Toepoint]

I have to wonder why Angela is skating. I mean she does not seem to love to skate like Sarah or want to be a huge star like Sasha. So why is she out there? It seems like a waste of money to train just to go to competition and do all double jumps. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe she is just a shy person. I don't know, but you have to wonder what her motivation is.:cry:

[duane]

i agree that angela is a brilliant skater, but a very poor competitor. what makes someone a strong competitor is being able to deliver the goods when it counts. angela's actual skating skills are better than many who end up on the podium above her, but they were able to deliver the goods when angela was not.

i think top-5 finishes are great, but someone with angela's talent should be beyond that stage.

[Toepoint]

I think I first saw Angela at the 97 Nationals. She had that Cinderella program which I just loved. I felt she should have beaten Nicole Bobek for third. She was great. She seemed to be a star in the making. But its been a downhill battle since then.:(

[TRAxel]

Downhill is right.. she lost her coach that was like a mother to her... her late coach is the one who made Angela come out of the closet so to speak... then she died of cancer... Angela was devastated! Coming from one who suffers depression... I think that is what Angela's problem is... she is depressed, loves to skate and wants to skate but she is not well... you can see it in her eyes if you look very closely. Then with the shoulder injury... from what I hear it was a very bad injury.. on the Sears Open they said she has been very scared to jump for fear of falling and hurting her shoulder all over again, give this girl some time to get things back into perspective... she is still young and once she finds herself... things will be much better. I don't think she needs to go pro.. that is not the answer at all.

[Mayra]

People have described Angela as a headcase, but I don't buy that. Sandhu is a headcase. With Angela it goes deeper than that, because when she is on the ice, it looks like she wants to be anywhere but there *with exceptions like 2001 Nationals*.

When a skater like Sandhu unravels, its frustrating because you KNOW its mental. BTW, this was not meant as a bash to Sandhu, I think he's awesome. ;)

When Angela unravels, its just sad because you don't know what to make of it. There is so little joy in her skating sometimes, that you begin to ask yourself if she even wants to be out there on the ice. Is she doing it for herself or to please someone else?

[haribobo]

Great post, TRAxel...you may just have hit the key on that one. True, emotional distress is not forgiven in sports competitions and nor should it be, but I do feel that generally people have unrealistic expectations for this young lady, expecting her to bounce right back from an injury and land every jump and skate as if nothing ever happened. Some can do this, but it depends on the severity of the injury and the emotional status of the athlete to be in the mindset to skate at their best again.
Let's give this young lady a break and let her work things out at her pace instead of kicking her when she's down and whining that she should get out of the sport.

Adrian, Nobody is asking anyone to hold spots for Angela. I only want her to go to 4CC or Worlds if she skates well and earns her spot on the team. If she misses all her jumps at Nationals, then I hope she finishes at or near the bottom. The last thing I want to see is corrupt judging!! Either she will be ready for the challenge, do well, and make the 4CC team, or she will not skate well, finish in a low spot, and then have some time to re-evaluate what she wants to do and how to go about it. I'm not ready to assume she will be judged unfairly high just because of her name and potential...and if she does finish below 7th at Nationals, chances of her getting GP assignments next season are probably very slim. Same for Jenny Kirk, who seems to possibly be facing that same danger this season. The ladies competition at Nationals will be truly fascinating this year for so many reasons.

I am not doubting that Angela perhaps lacks the competitive fire of a Cohen, Hughes, or Kwan...right now anyway...The connection you make between merely good vs great skater does not sit well with me. You can be a great skater without being consistent. Angela and Nicole Bobek both I think are awesome skaters at times, just not all the time. Michelle, Sarah, and Sasha...they are great on a more consistent basis. To say someone like Angela only fits in the *merely good* category is, if you ask me, underestimating her talents. At Sears Open, Angela was pretty good despite the jumps, but not her best in any way. I feel that you mix up quality and consistency in your definitions.

Comparing Angela's season to Jenny Kirk's is just unfair, honestly. Jenny has competed about 4 times, Angela once. If Angela competed on the GP, something tells me she would have done a better job at Sears Open...coming off an injury, nobody is at their best. Jenny had much more time to recover and train for her season debut than Angela, who was still injured *during* the Grand Prix. I feel that you are penalizing skaters for being injured when it is not always their fault!

In response to Spinner, I feel that Angela is a pretty good competitor, but not a great one in general. To say that she is a "poor" competitor does not seem accurate to me. Though she certainly is one who rarely lives up to her talent and potential, unfortunately...she's still a better competitor than most, though. Unless you are referring to Sears Open, where she was a very poor competitor...however, if you look at the overall picture of her career, I feel she has been fairly strong and maintained a high level of skating.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by haribobo

The connection you make between merely good vs great skater does not sit well with me. You can be a great skater without being consistent. Angela and Nicole Bobek both I think are awesome skaters at times, just not all the time.

I wouldn't lump them together - Nicole's skating has more quality than Angela's... she's got more speed and energy in her programs, done a 3/3 combo, never a spin problem either. Nicole's been to the Olympics, medaled at Worlds... Angela hasn't.

Angela will be like a Tonia Kwiatkowski - one that lingers on the verge of breaking through but never makes it there. Nicole has innate talent to me that is missing from Angela... Nicole is awesome, Angela is merely good.

I feel that you are penalizing skaters for being injured when it is not always their fault!

No - how a skater responds to injury and their determination to make a comeback - is representative of their competitiveness. You have to give it 110% when making a comeback from an injury - you have to work extra hard to make up for loss time. Work ethic is very important to success. Motivation is very important to success. Even awesome talent eg. Nicole's is not enough to win an Olympic medal.

[bcskater]

:roll: i just started reading the first few comments from this thread and i didnt even bother reading the rest. why must everyone come down on a skater at once? this is probably the thrid thread i have seen in the last week that mentions "why doesnt angela do this?" "why wont angela just try fixing this?" MAYBE angela is just having a hard time. MAYBE she is just human? MAYBE everyone should just give her a break. this is skating - not life or death. if angela wants to figure it out, i would leave it up to her to do just that.

[Mayra]

With the exception of Adrian who thinks Angela skating is "merely good" ;), I think people comment on Angela because for one, this is a skating message board, and secondly because they really, really like her. Just in this thread alone people have used words like brilliant, talented and beautiful to describe her skating. She puts herself on the ice and people are naturally going to comment on what is going on out on the ice, or off of it. Does it give them the right to pass judgement on her, no. But like it or not, it is going to happen. Just look at some of the comments people like Michelle, Sasha and Sarah get. Harsh to say the least.

But even so, I don't think there is one person who wouldn't love for her to just come out like gangbusters and medal and I'll go as far as saying win Nationals or Worlds. She's that talented, and that well liked IMO.

[Aaron W]

Originally posted by bcskater
:roll: i just started reading the first few comments from this thread and i didnt even bother reading the rest. why must everyone come down on a skater at once?

If you're refering to the original post that started this thread, I think I was offering constructive criticism. The spin errors have truly been problems in her skating for quite a while, and if she doesn't fix it she'll never receive as good of marks as she's capable of. It's hard to find many competitive short programs where she hasn't shortened the required number of revs in her spins. People in this thread have been commenting on mental problems of Angela's; I've only commented on her spins, something that can easily be helped. Asking her to complete the required number of revs in her spins isn't asking too much, nor is it "coming down on a skater" IMHO.

[spiralsrfun]

I'm a huge fan of Angela...the skater and the person. She's not only talented, but probably the sweetest "top" skater I've ever met and spoke to.

I was very excited to see her this weekend, but I'm very sad for her that she still can't seem to get it together. As a coach, Frank can only do so much to help her...the rest is up to her when she takes the ice.

I hope she can skate well at Nationals, IMO this is her make it or break it season. :??

[hoptoad]

Aaron, I don't think anyone took your initial post as anything but constructive criticism. LOL, you even directed it more at Frank than at Angela.

I'd love to see Angela have at least one outstanding season before she gives up eligible skating. I don't really think this is her make it or break it season though. I'd give her at least until nationals 2004 before even speculating that she's "done." It will be harder for her if she doesn't earn some GP spots for next year, but I think the judges will always be willing to put her at or near the top if she delivers on the content. I hope she does.

[bcskater]

Originally posted by hoptoad
Aaron, I don't think anyone took your initial post as anything but constructive criticism. LOL, you even directed it more at Frank than at Angela.
yes, hoptoad is right. i wasnt trying to piont a finger to anyones specific post or opinion. :)

[Aaron W]

Oh, ok. :)

[Toepoint]

Maybe Angela does suffer from depression. Maybe she needs to seek some kind of theray, Poor girl! Although, she does not seem like the type to go looking for that type of help. Maybe if Frank suggest it she might.:??

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Toepoint

Maybe Angela does suffer from depression. Maybe she needs to seek some kind of theray, Poor girl! Although, she does not seem like the type to go looking for that type of help. Maybe if Frank suggest it she might.:??

Jamie Sale consulted with a sports psychologist - Michael Weiss is working with a sports psychologist and actually has improved this season. Its not a bad idea if one is open enough to go out and seek help.

[TRAxel]

Originally posted by Toepoint
Maybe Angela does suffer from depression. Maybe she needs to seek some kind of theray, Poor girl! Although, she does not seem like the type to go looking for that type of help. Maybe if Frank suggest it she might.:??

People with depression don't always realize they are depressed, so maybe (if that is what is wrong with Angela) Frank will make her realize that she needs to get help. I don't know that a sports psychologist would help much with clinical depression, might be a start.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by adrianchew

I'm not willing to hold any spots or root for skaters that aren't serious about working towards their goals. The US ladies field is so deep and talented, there are just better candidates that should get assignments to stuffs like 4CCs and so on.

I would hope you wouldn't be so quick to judge the seriousness of someone's indeavor. Different people have different dragons to slay.

I question neither her seriousness nor her dedication. Roz said she was gun-shy with that shoulder injury. VERY understandable. Also, changing to a new coach is often a bit rocky (ask Jenny or Timmy - both took a while to even out again).

I don't know what Angela's particular deamon is, but I sure hope she can conquer it......not just so I can enjoy her skating, but so she can to. She has everything she needs to stand atop any podium at any competition. She just needs the key to unlock it.

[cocanuts]

Angela will be like a Tonia Kwiatkowski - one that lingers on the verge of breaking through but never makes it there.
i agree, but angela is a more talented skater, and much more natural

[cocanuts]

She did incorporate some new spin variations which fit perfectly with the music.
what new spins did she do?