Are Singles Skaters Required To Do Too Many Jumps?

[Peter G]

[color=darkred:317e462b35]A common complaint I read about on message boards (TV commentators mention this as well) is that too many skaters go from one end of the rink to the other, doing a jump at each end. Back and forth, over and over.

I was thinking that maybe there should be a limit to the number of jumps a skater can do. Maybe four. This way, they would have more time to focus on the intricacies of a program, working with the music and creating highlights.

I'm also wondering if there should be a 50/50 emphasis for the technical merit of jumps in that half of the technical mark should go towards successful completion of the jumps and half of the technical mark would go towards the quality of the jump (height, distance, flow out of the jump, etc.)

So if a skater fell on two of the jumps, but the height and distance, etc. of the jumps were far superior to her competitors, her technical mark would remain relatively high.

If the sport is being pushed towards quads, fine. But let's not lose the artistry of the sport. Let's not let artistry take a back seat to who can jump. A limit of four jumps would level things out so that the artists can compete more with the jumpers.[/color:317e462b35]

[Dustin]

That is the challenge. They need to learn how to put the jumps in a program that is artistic - a test of a true skater.

I don't think that there are too many jumps - I like jumps. With only 4 jumps, I personally think skating would be less exciting towards the general public and turn possible new fans away.

I do, however, think the judges should pay more attention to jump technique than they have been. I don't think that even if the skater fell they should get half credit, but I think they should get more credit for a landed jump with good technique than a landed, harder, jump of another skater with bad technique.

If there were only 4 jumps allowed, I personally think that there would be too much skating. Artistry would be much more important than jumps when they should be equal.

One thing that does bother me is when a skater with good jumps and spins but horrible artistry still manages to get marks in the upper 5s for presentation when they skate around with their arms down most of the time and they are looking down at the ice instead of up and presenting themselves to the audience and judges.

[Josef]

Too much skating???

I don't think there is such a thing.. this sport *is* figure skating, not figure jumping.

I personally agree that there should be fewer triples allowed in the free skates, especially, for single skaters. This would also decrease the number of injuries, and would make skating a more well-rounded sport.

[loveskating]

I like the jumps, all of them, and like them well done...I don't really see a huge problem as to presentation....most of the great artistic skaters are also great jumpers as amateurs....Yagudin, Plushenko, Honda, Abt are all "whole package"; Tim is deficient as to presentation...and he is improving. On the other end of the spectrum is Stojko, a truly great jumper. Then there is Weiss...who is neither a great artistic skater or a great jumper IMHO, although his lutz is fabulous but a kind of well rounded, good skater.

It did occur to me that if some of these things were applied, there would never have been an Ito and Harding...they would have gotten nowhere.

The 3/3s have been the decisive things in ladies in 98 and 2002. Same as to the quad with the men.

My only beef with the rules is with the speed into rule...there are some skaters, like Ilia Kulik, Irina, Sasha and others who don't NEED all that speed into the jumps to get their full rotations. I find back to back jumps very beautiful and exciting, and they require a natural talent that is rare.

I think the rules are good otherwise...level of difficulty, correct takeoff and landing, "proper backspin" position in the air, speed out of, height, ice coverage... those are the things that get a skater higher marks on the jumps...and any deviation produces either a deduction or less credit, [b:33813c5aa3]relative [/b:33813c5aa3]to the other skaters in the competition.

However, the judges don't always seem to apply the rules very well...and don't they have instant replay?

[RobinA]

Put me down in the "too many jumps" category. I think four or five should be sufficient. Although, I wouldn't put an official limit on jumps, I'd just adjust scoring in such a way that more jumps would not help a skater and could even lower the presentation mark if all the skater did was skate from one end to the other doing jumps. I'd like to see a skater who isn't the best jumper be able to make up for that lack by showing technical and artistic mastery in other areas.

[Ellyn]

Well, there are six different takeoffs from which one can do multirevolution jumps, and I think that there *is* a definite value to demonstrating that you've mastered all six. So I would object to any proposal that permitted fewer than six triples/quads (including double axels for those who can't do triple axels). In fact, I'd almost rather see a requirement that all six takeoffs must be demonstrated, meaning that the elite skaters who can't do triples from a given takeoff would be required to include the doubles instead.

Free skating is not about who can do the most entertaining program. It's about technical skills -- jumps, spins, steps, field moves, and all the connecting skating in between -- and anyone who can also manage to do that in an artistic and/or entertaining way gets extra credit for doing so. But it's a sport. To make art/entertainment the primary purpose and technique secondary is for show skating, including professional or pro-am "competitions" whose primary purpose is to entertain audiences and make money rather than to determine the best skaters.

For a number of years now skaters have been required to do at least one jump combination (many of the ladies especially just put a double toe on the end of whatever triple they plan to repeat -- not much creativity there) and not more than three combinations or sequences. Just last year they added the option to do a sequence with single-revolution jumps and steps leading into a triple that wouldn't count against the limit of three. That allows for more creativity and should be promoted as an option that explicitly gives more technical credit than just doing a triple on its own.

Spins, step sequences and spiral/moves sequences are now required in free programs. It should be made clearer how much these elements contribute to the tech scores so that skaters don't skimp on them in favor of jumps, and find ways explicitly to reward extreme difficulty in non-jump elements as much as extemely difficult jumps.

E.g., make it officially known (if this is indeed the case) that Plyushenko lost more credit at 2000 Worlds for leaving out a spin than for the mistakes on the first two quad attempts.

[Dustin]

[quote:f95129f5bf="Josef"]I don't think there is such a thing.. this sport *is* figure skating, not figure jumping.

I personally agree that there should be fewer triples allowed in the free skates, especially, for single skaters. This would also decrease the number of injuries, and would make skating a more well-rounded sport.[/quote:f95129f5bf]

Yes, it is figure skating. Figures were about technicality, not entertainment and artistry. Your second point can be argued. Fewer jumps does not mean few injuries. You would possibly see more skaters trying to pursue triple axels and quads to advance above their other competitors.

Ellyn, you made some very good points. Figure skating is definately not about doing the most entertaining program - it is a combination of many aspects.

[adrianchew]

Jumps are what seperate the men from the boys - as much as I enjoy both Matt Savovie and Jeff Buttle, they haven't yet reached a competitive stage of being able to compete with the likes of Yagudin or Plushenko, or even Goebel.

Yet even those who have the jumping ability (eg. Goebel, Honda) still have to improve their overall package... to match the flow, speed, and footwork that Yagudin or Plushenko for example are capable of.

Jumps seem to be less important for ladies though - and some of the ladies pushing the jumping envelope don't have the package of other elements to match their jumping ability. A good example would be Yoshie Onda.

Part of the problem is that the ladies have less consistently been able to both push the envelope and maintain supreme artistry. Skaters like Cohen (quad) and Hughes/Lipinski (difficult 3/3s) have come close to providing the best combination but none have reached the level of consistently landing all the jumps almost all the time or supreme mastery in other elements to combine with the jumping ability.

I do agree all six jumps should be required in a freeskate, including a combination. And the Zayak rule is sufficient in keeping the sport from becoming a jumpfest.

[loveskating]

[quote="Free skating is not about who can do the most entertaining program. It's about technical skills -- jumps, spins, steps, field moves, and all the connecting skating in between -- and anyone who can also manage to do that in an artistic and/or entertaining way gets extra credit for doing so. But it's a sport. To make art/entertainment the primary purpose and technique secondary is for show skating, including professional or pro-am "competitions" whose primary purpose is to entertain audiences and make money rather than to determine the best skaters.
.[/quote]

Totally agree, but respectfully suggest that because the dominant "show skaters" are now virtually the same in the pro ams as the "amateur" skaters, it is very confusing...IMHO, the amateurs, even at their best, are just not quite as "artistic" as pros who have been able to devote some time and body to more artistic aspects of skating...Kulik is a great example because I think his programs have been so very innovative and great as a pro...which they never could have been if he was training his jumps all the time since protecting the jumps as to the body is the central aspect of training for an amateur. Kurt is another example...incredible skater both as an amateur and pro....more "artistic" as a pro, IMHO. At the pro ams, it seems we mostly have the amateurs minus a few jumps...but no programs like Rubber Band Man (twizzles into 3 axel would probably even be illegal, right?) or "Singing in the Rain" or that clown number Kurt did (which I adore and also think was very difficult on the finer points of skating).

[arena_gal]

As it stands now, the men and the ladies are doing the number of triple jumps that they can possibly fit into a program with the limits on number of repeated triples and combinations. The only place for guys to go is into quad territory and ladies , 3/3 or 3Axel.

So, using men for an example, if they have fit all their technical tricks into 4:30 minutes, what would they do if they got an extra 30 seconds? Maybe some artistry, an extra spin, another footwork run? I would like to see mens long programs got back to 5:00 like they used to be, but don't change the technical rules at all.

It is a sport where jumping is IT. If you're a guy without a 3axel, no amount of artistry is going to get you into the top flights. But, artistry will put you at the top of your flight that you're in. The good guys will use the extra 30 seconds. And if you're all artistry and no jump, well, ice dance is waiting for you (like I have to tell any guy that!)

[Mistyeyed]

Yes! I think there are too many jumps required from single skaters. I think flying camels and sit and butterfly spins are just as neat to watch as all that jumping. I also love that move and Sasha C. does it beautifully(don't know what it's called though)where the skater has her foot up and behind her, about midway to her back and held with her hand while she is spinning. Whatever this move is called when it is done correctly it is very beautiful. Change of footwork sequences and spirals are also lovely to watch. Jumping is nice to a certain extent and it's always good to see a skater land a difficult jump or combo but some of those skaters just jump and jump without great tech., and that does get old to watch. Beautiful moves done correctly on the ice with flair and beauty is just as nice as jumps.

[hoptoad]

I wasn't aware that there were restrictions concerning the approach to jumps in the free program. Would "twizzles into a 3 Axle" be illegal, or are twizzles themselves illegal for free skaters?

Ellyn said:
Just last year they added the option to do a sequence with single-revolution jumps and steps leading into a triple that wouldn't count against the limit of three. That allows for more creativity and should be promoted as an option that explicitly gives more technical credit than just doing a triple on its own.

Could you please elaborate?
What wasn't allowed before that now is?
What is still not allowed?

[Scott]

Either figure skating is a port or it isn't. That means rising to the challenge of doing the technical side of things, which includes jumping. There are not too many jumps, the problem is that the skaters are not properly trained ( take off,rotation position, height, and landing position) or properly prepared to do most of thiese jumps. It kills me to see skaters attempting to do jumps that they are not just ready for. Skating technique musat be developed before a good clean, properly executed triple can be accomplished. We tend to rush things rather than let them develop over time. Everyone is in such a hurry and in the rush they get hurt.

[blue111moon]

Free skating rules don't REQUIRE six different priples and two quads. There are hundreds of skaters out there who do very entertaining programs without all those jumps.

BUT they're not elite skaters, and they're not in the top six who make it onto TV. If you want to win, you HAVE to do something more than eveybody else. The Olympic motto is "Higher, Faster, Stronger" and the bar keeps going up. It has to. It's the nature of sport.

Sport progresses. People get faster, stronger, tougher as it does. One person pushes the envelope, others scramble to match him/her, then someone else gives the envelope another shove. This doesn't mean that EVERYONE who skates is capable of keeping up. Some people will be injured, some with get frustrated and quit, some will match the new feat but be unable to exceed it. But because EVERYONE can't or may not reach that same level or exceed it, that doesn't mean that no one should be allowed to try. There are risks involved in everything but limiting potential advancement isn't the answer.

[AxelAnnie22]

[color=darkblue:f4a9e83a14]I don't think we need to limit the number of jumps. I think that the jumps keep skating exciting to the general tv fan, which keeps the money flowing, and keeps the competitions on TV for us to see. These are good things.

What I think would go a long way in mitigating the jump fest, and adding to the overall quality of skating would be to give more credit to the other elements. If skaters got the credit deserved for intricate spins and moves in the field, and if the commentators would explain that, we would see a natural move toward expanding the artistic and "figure" part of figure skating.

Also, why not expand the SP, and add a couple more jumps. The SP is (supposed to be) the place where the technique of the jump is scrutinized. Put in instant replay, and really deduct for improper edges, take off, set up, etc.

Expanding the SP, and actually judging the elements according to the rules, would have the added benefit of pushing skaters to learn the correct take off and landing of the jumps, which just might help eliminate injury, and add to the overall quality of the sport. I would like to see skaters like Matt Savoie rewarded for the overall quality of his skating and the ingenuity of his choreography. And, conversely, I would like to see skaters who can go from one end of the ring to the other pulling off one jump then another, kept lower in the ranks until they develop the full spectrum of their skating.

So, I don't think we need to limit the jumps, but I do think we need to expand the emphasis on the rest of skating

.[/color:f4a9e83a14]

[ESK]

blue111moon,

Excellent post, I believe you hit upon some great points. While it's sad that some skaters that shine in just a few areas (i.e Lucinda Ruh) get 'left behind' it's wouldn't be fair to those who can do it all to be restricted.

[mikey]

[quote:93fb0dffb6="Ellyn"]there are six different takeoffs from which one can do multirevolution jumps, and I think that there *is* a definite value to demonstrating that you've mastered all six.[/quote:93fb0dffb6]

I am so glad someone agrees with me on this one! I've been saying this for years... If you can't do a triple, then do a double, but at least it puts everything out there on the ice for true comparison.

[AxelAnnie22]

[quote:4965f0b1fa]I am so glad someone agrees with me on this one! I've been saying this for years... If you
can't do a triple, then do a double, but at least it puts everything out there on the ice for
true comparison.[/quote:4965f0b1fa]

[color=blue:4965f0b1fa]I think that skaters will only start to do their jumps correctly when the judges start to judge correctly - you know, not giving credit for an incorrect take off edge.[/color:4965f0b1fa]