the most over-rated skater?

[cchen24]

I just got in some hot debate in another forum on the question:
"Which female skater has been given the MOST gifts during the past 3~4 years?"
I was directed to this board because I was told that I could obtain very fair and unbiased opinions over here. This is not intended to be a bash towards any skater, since it is not any skater's fault to get gifts from the JUDGES.

Your feedback is appreciated.

[JDC1]

Gifts - you know to be honest I am not sure all that many skaters are given gifts and I don't think anyone has gotten necessarily any more than others. But I will give two examples of what I thought were, if not gifts, really questionable results -

Irina S - yes the infamous 2001 GPF final

Michelle K - the 3rd place after 2000 Nats short.

Sarah H - Campbell's this year, no way was she 3rd best.

[Emanfan]

Perhaps you should re-word the title of this thread. All skaters at times receive "gifts" - Yagudin, Plushenko, Slutskaya, Kwan, etc. etc.

I would not consider any of these athletes to be "over-rated". They are just champions that judges will favour from time to time, rightly or wrongly.

[Maximillian]

Ooooh, this might create some TROUBLE!

Lesee here,

Nik-LP 2000 Nats., LP 2002 Nats.
Slute-2nd LP 2001 GPF
Kwan-SP 2002 O's
Vika-LP SC 2002

[cchen24]

Thanks for the feedback.

What I meant was "over-rated" by judges...

It's all relative. What I am referring to is that I sort of observe that in some judges' eyes, some skater(s) has(have) lots of room to make mistakes while her(their) major competitors don't. The final results might "look right", but some individual judges' marks look suspecious towards some specific skater(s). This is what I mean by "over-rated".

One example could include the LP at SLC. I thought Sarah Hughes deserved all first place ordinals, but she only won by a 5/4 split.

[loveskating]

I think, if anything, that all the top skaters are totally UNDER rated...they are really incredible, all of them, and deserve a lot more than they get from the sports media and whoever it is that keeps skating off TV when its second only to football in ratings (well, except for he who takes off the clothes, and I'd love him again if he cut it out).

I think a LOT of skaters have been held up in given competitions, and it makes me mad every time, but I've learned to live with that...and just enjoy the skating that I enjoy...

As for Sarah vs. Irina, who cares any more beyond the skating issues, which are important in and of themselves, Sarah has the gold, the girl landed two 3/3s of high difficulty and has great spins, isn't that enough? Did she have to get all first place ordinals too?

OTOH, if you say that Sarah's spiral is perfection, I'd probably disagree...which would not mean that I don't think she is wonderful.

[cchen24]

To me, Sarah's LP at SLC was one of the most exciting performance I have ever seen. She did deserve to win the LP, and she did deserve to get all the nods from the judges. She was that much better than everyone else that night, IMO . It's important for me to see all the judges are doing their jobs honestly. A 5/4 split? It's just not right! I can't tolerate any cheating in judging, even if the final standings "look right". If those dishonest judges continue staying in this system without being caught, no matter how you modify the scoring system, they are going to cheat. Moreover, you never know if some day there happens to be a judge panel with dishonest judges dominating (ie GPF last year).

[duane]

i agree that all skaters--once they achieve a certain reputation--have been given "gifts" at one point or another.

regarding sarah vs irina at the olympics...it is also my opinion that sarah was clearly the winner in the LP. OTOH, it is my opinion that irina was clearly the winner of the SP. perhaps those 4 judges who placed irina's LP 1st were not necessarily saying that her LP was better, but that her SP & LP combined (as well as the extra brownie points given for reputation, and this being her 2nd Olympics) were more deserving of Olympic gold than sarah's two programs (and less-established reputation).

if i had to say which skaters have been given the most "gifts" over the past 3-4 years, i would name maria, yagudin, and b&s. all of them are great skaters (and, IMO both yagudin and b&s definitely deserved Olympic gold in 02), but skaters who, IMO, were often overly-rewarded for flawed performances.

[Aussie Willy]

Fusar-Poli/Margaglio - need I say more!!

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
i agree that all skaters--once they achieve a certain reputation--have been given "gifts" at one point or another.

regarding sarah vs irina at the olympics...it is also my opinion that sarah was clearly the winner in the LP. OTOH, it is my opinion that irina was clearly the winner of the SP. perhaps those 4 judges who placed irina's LP 1st were not necessarily saying that her LP was better, but that her SP & LP combined (as well as the extra brownie points given for reputation, and this being her 2nd Olympics) were more deserving of Olympic gold than sarah's two programs (and less-established reputation).

if i had to say which skaters have been given the most "gifts" over the past 3-4 years, i would name maria, yagudin, and b&s. all of them are great skaters (and, IMO both yagudin and b&s definitely deserved Olympic gold in 02), but skaters who, IMO, were often overly-rewarded for flawed performances.

I agree with you and Torvil of Torvil & Dean that Irina should have won the SP quite clearly. What also makes it "sticky" is that the QUALITY according to the rules of Irina's jumps set the basemark in that competition (Volchkova and others with high quality jumps not being in the running). Since her only mistake was on the landing of the flip jump (so she got credit for a 3 flip) it gets strange as to adding everything up.

In the SP, Sarah's really bad flutz and underrotated flip and not being on center on her turns, things like that, bring her down. I'd have marked it Irina, Sasha, Michelle in the SP and as to the podium, probably Irina, Sarah, Sasha based on my view that Irina won the SP in actuality. Sarah clearly won the LP, IMHO, but IMHO it was very close with Irina, closer than some think and I can totally see the judges POV who marked Irina 1 overall.

I honestly don't care who got the medal, but the skating issues are still important to me. Sarah is a wonderful skater and has a lot of hutzpah, she gave us a great moment, skated her heart out, and I love her, don't mean to attack her.

[RobinA]

Onda is being very overmarked right now if you ask me. Especially in presentation.

Cohen is overrated, but not by the judges.

[AxelAnnie22]

I suspect that all the top skaters are overmarked often enough that it all cancels out.

The ones I feel the most sorry for are the skaters who have not quite made the top 6 or so. Remember Skate America last year. Sarah really should have won that!

And, Campbell's Soup whatever this year, AP skated wonderfully, and arguably the best of the evening. But, I think it is very difficult for the younger skaters to break through. Look at the kinds of marks Jenny and Sasha received their first year out. Abysmal.

And, Maria B.....don't get me started. I love Maria, but this last year, you really needed to add a couple of "she could have" points to her scores to give her the marks she received sometimes.

Although, a case can almost always be made for the marks given, I think the judges often add a bit for what they saw in practice, or what they know the skater could have done. It is really too bad, because it makes skating look fishy.

I wish skating was like Dressge, where you get to see the judge's cards (with complete comments). It would make it so much better to see what they were thinking. And, of course, when someone knows their results are going to be made public, so much more fair. 8-)

[spiralsrfun]

Here's a gift that sticks out in my mind.

Remember the NHK competition from the 00-01 season when Maria clearly had her best skate of the season...clean with 6 or 7 triples (including her 3/3 sequence) and the judges gave Irina the win with a flawed 4 or 5 triple program...Maria was quite upset...that was a big gift IMO.

[icenut84]

I agree that probably all skaters have been given something of a "gift" in placements at some time or other. During the past 3-4 years? Well, I haven't seen every competition (like the GP ones) but I can think of some. Like many others, I thought Sarah H deserved the win in the SLC LP, but I can also see the point of view of the judges who gave Irina first (her superior quality of skating and technique). And I love Michelle but IMO she was held up in the SP for definite. I would have had it Irina, Sasha, Michelle in that order. Certainly Irina-Sasha for 1-2 anyway. I also thought Yagudin was given something of a gift in 2001 Worlds LP, I would have given Todd silver.

[icenut84]

And I would have given Abt gold in 2002 Europeans, not Yagudin. Most people agree with that though.

[LilRedRidingHood]

I think a case could be made for many being given gifts occasionally during a career. Those who are "earlier" in their careers will see it at one time or another in the future.

The one event that immediately came to mind was 2001 Worlds. Eldredge should have had Silver over Yags.

There are individual skaters that come to my mind as being overmarked on several occasions, but there really is no point in naming them.

[Emilieanne]

If you are thinking about someone being "overrated," look at those who you think are overrated and look at who is coaching them. Perhaps that will shed some light...is it the students of coaches with some repute that seem to get the so-called "gifts?" Think about it...

[TAF2984]

"Onda is being very overmarked right now if you ask me. Especially in presentation.

Cohen is overrated, but not by the judges"

I agree completely!

[adrianchew]

Kwan at the Olys SP is the one example I recall of a gift that reflects overrated. Slutskaya should have won the ladies SP at SLC not a doubt in my mind... I would have had Cohen 2nd and Kwan 3rd.

[cchen24]

Kwan should be 3rd in SP at SLC?
Oh well, no judge put Kwan in 3rd at all. I don't know if those judges saw something which we don't notice, or the other way around. Interestingly, some judges put Slutskaya as low as 3rd in SP, mainly because of slightly lower presentation marks, while so many people claimed that she should have definitely won this one.

Gifts? Most recent ones could include CoR SP and LP. I really don't understand how could someone not put Coehn 1st in SP. In LP, some judges even put Slutskaya in 2nd after Coehn and Vochkova skated. At NHK, there is no doubt in my mind that Arakawa should be ahead of Slutskaya, but it didn't happen. That totally ruined her perfect chance to make GPF. I feel sorry for her.

[spiralsrfun]

Recent obvious judging gifts:

- Hughes over Cohen at Campbell's
- Irina over Arakawa in the LP at NHK

[dbell]

I'm agreeing with most of the posters on this thread.

I thought Plushenko was given a SP gift at the Olympics.

Yags at 2001 Worlds and 2002 Euros.

Michelle in SLC.

Onda and the other Triple Axle ladies this season are way overmarked. The judges are focusing on the jumps (which will lead to some nasty injuries IMHO) and ignoring the basic focus of the skating - presentation, spirals, footwork, arms, etc. I wish the SP was just an Artistic program - no jumps at all or a limit to total jumps with a focus on clean, basic, heartfelt skating with innovative moves - of course that's a whole other thread! ;)

[Cmoneynoair]

I think Michelle was overrated at SLC. I don't think Michelle should have even gotten a medal. I think her LP was by far the worst out of the big 4 (Sasha, Sarah, Irina, and Michelle.
It should have finished like this:
1. Irina
2. Sarah
3. Sasha
4 Michelle

I think Michelle is probaly one of the greatest skaters ever, but it seems to me the judges always give her a little edge, like even at Cambells AP definatley should have won in my opinion.

[thvudragon]

Wati just a minute, how could you place Irina and Sasha over Michelle at SLC? Irina was a zombie. She landed 5 triples and looked like she was half dead. Sasha skated with low speed, and her infamous poor edges. The long should have been.

1. Sarah
2. Michelle
3. Sasha
4. Irina

I agree thought hat Irina should have won the SP. But Sasha should not have been second as some of you suggest. She still had a pretty bad flutz, low speed, mediocre footwork, and that bobble on her 2axel. Also, I think Sarah was given a gift in the SP. She should have been 5th or lower. 1 judge even put her 10th. It should have been.

1. Irina
2. Michelle
3. Sasha
4. Maria B
5. Sarah or Fumie
6. " "

TV

[RoseAugust]

I agree that Michelle has received a gift here and there over the years, but not with the SP at SLC. If Irina hadn't had that loooooong pause before her flip, maybe I could be convinced otherwise. Like it or not, presentation is an important part of the SP and Michelle earned her marks that night.

When we talk about "over-rated", by who are we talking about? Judges? Fans? Commentators? The press?

[duane]

performance-wise only, my SLC placements would have been:

overall:
gold: sarah
silver: sasha
bronze: irina

however, i would have added brownie points based on reputation (IMO, it has happened since the sport of FS was created, so why stop now! ;) ), and with my "gift", the placements would have been:

SP
1. michelle (extra points for being reigning World champ and Olympic silver medalist would place her over...)
2. irina
3. sarah (as reigning World bronze medalist, brownie points would place her slightly ahead of...)
4. sasha

LP
1. irina (sarah was much better, sasha was slightly better, but i would have placed her 1st in order to win olympic gold over...)
2. sarah
3. sasha
4. michelle (sorry, but this was one of michelle's worst performances)

overall:
1. irina
2. sarah
3. michelle
4. sasha

[thvudragon]

Some of these placements you guys are coming up with are ridiculous. So what if SLC long was one of Michelle's worst performances. It was still better than Irina's and Sasha's. Break it down by the elements people! Michelle landed 5 clean triples, 1 two footed, 1 fall. She still had very good edging and pretty good speed in and out of her jumps. Her presentation skills were still the best of the night. Irina skated sloppy and her artistry was practically nowhere to be seen. 5 triples, turn out on the flip. Sasha skated with her low speed and very poor edging. 6 triples, 1 fall.

Also duane, your "Brownie Points" make no sense, why give MK brownie points in the SP, but not in the LP? Heck, you put Irina in first based on Brownie points when she should have been 4th! The final standings in the LP should have been.

1) Sarah
2) Michelle
3) Sasha
4) Irina
5) Fumie
6) Maria

Irina was a ZOMBIE that night. She skated like her life was on the line; she lost it before she stepped on the ice.

On the most overated skater by judges, it is without a doubt, Irina. Too many times she has come close to winning competitions that she didn't deserve. Too many times that she has won competitions that she didn't deserve. Michelle was held up at Skate America 2001. Sarah was held up at Campbell's. That third was VERY generous. She should have been 5th. That Canadian judge was either blind or on crack. How could he place Sarah 1st? Also, she didn't deserve those 2 6.0's at Hershery's classic last spring. She will never be worthy of a 6.0 in presentation. VV was held up over Sasha at CoR also.

TV

[duane]

thvu,
who i think was better performance-wise is my opinion, as it is your opinion as to whom was better. you may think that your opinion is more correct and that of others is "ridiculous", but you're sadly mistaken.

[cchen24]

Ok Calm down abit, guys...:lol:

Should Kwan be 3rd in SP at SLC? I don't know, but I do know that no judge put her in 3rd, as suggested by some people here. Yes, no judge, not even one. Should Irina be 1st in SP at SLC? Maybe, or maybe not. There were mixed opinions in the judge panel, and some put her as low as 3rd, mainly due to splightly lower persentation marks. You may claim that those who didn't put her in 1st were dishonest or those judges might notice something which you don't notice. However, I do remember when I watched the live broadcast by CTV, the commentators said that MK's SP was the best overall before the marks were given. I wonder if they saw something in MK's performance to say so.

Nevertheless, I thought that it was pretty obvious to everyone who should win the LP. Surprisingly, or not surprisingly, it was an exteremely close decision between Sarah and Irina. It couldn't have been any closer because it was a 5/4 split. I would be more than willing to put Irina ahead of Sarah if Sarah had 7 triples with only 3sal/3loop while Irina skated a clean 6 triple program. However, when I saw two triple-triples from Sarah, it was more than enough to cut it. I would say even if Irina didn't have that problem on her 3flip, I wouldn't put Irina 1st. She would need to have, at least, a close attempt on one triple-triple to get my vote.

Back to the original topic, since I asked for the female skater who received the most gifts during the past 3~4 years, the answer should only include one skater... the MOST gifts.... :lol:

[Breakdown787]

Yikes, Olympic shorts was totally out of place.

SP
1. Irina - no doubt the cleanest and strongest
2. Sasha - probably the only program I had ever like from her
3. Michelle - should have been deducted for that flaw, A GIFT
4. Sebestyen - last year SP was exquisite and had the one of the few TRUE FOOTWOOK IMMEDIATLY INTO TRIPLE JUMP
5. Hughes - so many minor mistakes. yikes, a Gift as well
6. Suguri - not to shabby
7. Malinina - skated way to early, underated with great jumps and difficult footwork, one of the better constructed SP last year
8. Butryskaya - so many "little" mistakes, weak spins, bad landings

2000 US Nationals
In the SP, Kwan was given a gift over a clearly cleaner Nikodinov and Nari Nam faulty programs was a gift over Gardiner and Kirk. In the FP, Nikodinov was over-rated over Gardiner.

2002 US Nationals
In the SP and FP, why did Hughes placed ahead of her?????

1999 Europeans
Year of the Hungarians, Diana Poth would have been our 1999 European Bronze medalist but Russian Sweep took care of that.

1999 Worlds
Ah, the very contraversial QP with Buturskaya OK performance over Malinina, in the short Kwan VERY FAULTY SP over Malinina, Poth, and Rechino. In the FP, Soldatova over Gusmeroli and Poth and Kwan over Malinina.

2001 NHK
Irina over Maria B........SO OBVIOUS!
Recently, Irina at NHK and Onda undeserved high presentation marks.

[icyboid]

I'm surprised this thread is still open.
I'm not going to say who is overrated because people will be starting to nitpick overanalyze about every movement so and so did.
Overrated is an overly negative word, and I wouldn't use it unless I wanted to pick a fight.

[JDC1]

This thread for awhile was a nice relatively non-biased track and now it seems to have degenerated into a recap of the Olys. Okay, I do have to say one teeny weeny comment that I haven't heard anyone mention in re Irina's SP, where or where did her footwork into her 3flip go, she GLIDED into that baby(.2 deduction atleast). :-) Really I thought the SP was a toss up because every skater had a flaw in their program so I don't get the outrage. As for the LP, it was Sarah's all the way and I don't normally jump on the block judging bandwagon but Irina in no way beat Sarah. And there's no way you'll convince Irina was better than Michelle that night but I do think it was relatively close between Sasha and MIchelle. Okay, now I'm done, you did it, you sucked me into the never ending Olys void. :-)

[icenut84]

Well, everyone else has said their opinions of the ladies at the Olympics, so I guess I will too, just because.

SP - I thought Irina was the clear winner. Sasha second. Michelle third. Why? Well, to analyse between Irina and Michelle:
Jump combo - Irina's was more difficult (3lutz-2loop) than Michelle's (3flutz-2toe). Irina had better flow through it and better runout.
3Flip - both had a pause between the footwork and the jump. Michelle underrotated hers, Irina's was clean.
2Axel - both landed cleanly, but Irina's was bigger and more powerful and had better runout.
Spins - both did good spins. Both travelled slightly on one spin, IIRC. Irina, however, had a better layback position, more difficult combo, and better speed on all of them.
Spirals - most people would give this to Michelle, but I actually think Irina's spirals were very good in this performance, she held them and had good extension, positions, and edges. I'd have to watch the performances again to say who I'd give this one to.
Footwork - Irina's was more difficult. Michelle's looked a little half-hearted to me, but maybe that's just me.
Presentation - pretty equal, based on these performances. I might have even given this one to Irina too, in this performance.

That's why I think Irina clearly deserved the win in the SP. And I love Michelle Kwan, I think her skating is beautiful. But I would have had Sasha in 2nd ahead of her in the SP, because Sasha's elements were cleaner, her spins were faster and had better positions (IIRC), and she had a beautiful programme.

I love Michelle and would have loved to see her win the Olympic gold, but IMO she didn't give the performances to deserve it, period.

In the LP, I agree Sarah deserved the win. She was on fire! It was close with Irina, and after multiple watchings of Irina, I still don't know why some people think she was so terrible, or a "zombie". She was a little tense. That's it, IMO. Robin Cousins was doing the commentary for the BBC, and although he agreed with Sarah's 1st place, he thought it was close. Before Irina's marks, there was a shot of Sarah backstage and he said "[Sarah] could well be the winner of the free programme. Iffy, with Irina here." Look at it from the judges' point of view. Yes, Sarah had the skate of her life, but the question is how did their performances compare, not how did Irina's compare with others she has given. The judges who gave Irina first probably took into account her superior technique and quality of skating. Sarah did land two 3/3s but she underrotated both jumps on the first one, the slow-motion showed that. She also had a bad flutz. The judges probably took more of an issue with that.

IMO, the top 2 were Sarah, Irina. (They also commented that Irina had far more in her programme than Michelle).The question for me is whether Michelle or Sasha should have been third. I didn't see it live, so maybe I would be able to evaluate that more easily if I had. I think the result was probably pretty fair (Michelle 3rd and Sasha 4th). Not because of Michelle's reputation, I don't think that should come into it, otherwise it's not a real competition at all, it's a case of who's done the best in the past and never mind what you can do now.

I love all the skaters (Michelle, Sasha, Irina, Sarah). According to my placements, the results would have been (not taking into account Fumie - I would have to rewatch her performances):

SP -
Irina 0.5
Sasha 1.0
Michelle 1.5
Sarah 2.0

LP -
Sarah 1.0
Irina 2.0
Michelle 3.0
Sasha 4.0

Overall -
Gold - Irina 2.5
Silver - Sarah 3.0
Bronze - Michelle 4.5
4th - Sasha 5.0

JMHO. :)

Roll on Washington! :mrgreen:

[RoseAugust]

Back to the over-rated topic. Am I the only one who thinks Scott Hamilton was/is over-rated? I've seen him several times and he is indeed humorous and I laughed with the rest of the crowd, but his actual skating never impressed me. His footwork is okay, but those short choppy strokes he uses to get from point A to B drive me crazy. Backflips and humor are fun and he's a wonderful entertainer, but I've never been sold on most of his actual skating.

[Yazmeen]

I think Scott as an eligible and in his early pro-days was an excellent skater and performer. Now its mostly just silly programs and mugging for the audience. I think he is highly overrated as a pro. Unlike Dorothy and Brian B., he hasn't retained most of his basic skills, nor does he really do anything refreshing at a lower jump level than when he was in his prime (ala Brian O., Kat Witt, Kurt Browning). But audiences love him, and he thrives on that love and attention. I think he is going to be around a lot this year.

[thvudragon]

I want someone to give me a comparison of MK's and Sasha's SP's at SLC.

Jumps: MK's jumps were higher and the landing had greater speed. She had a bobble on the takeoff of the flip. Sasha's jumps were low and low in speed. She had a bobble on the landing of the double axel.
Winner: MK

Footwork: Michelle's footwork was done with greater speed and was more difficult. Sasha's footwork was meager and incomplete with low speed.
Winner: MK

Spirals: Michelle had very good extension and amazing edges. She skated with great speed and had few strokes in between her spirals. Sasha's spirals contained amazing extension, but had low speed and very poor edges. She also had many strokes in between her spirals.
Winner: MK

Spins: Michelle Kwan has very good spins. She has good positions and relaticely good spins. Sasha has amzing positions and very fast speed.
Winner: Sasha

By my analysis, MK is placed over Sasha. Can someone give a better comparison?

TV

On the Scott Hamilton thing, I have a strong dislike for him. A monkey could be a better TV commentator than him. His skating is also very lackluster.

[Germanice]

To me Michelle Kwan is the most OVERRATED skater of all times - of all skaters ... by the judges, the US media and her US American fans ...

Anke
:evil: again

[spiralsrfun]

What a surprise Anke. (lol)

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by Germanice
To me Michelle Kwan is the most OVERRATED skater of all times - of all skaters ... by the judges, the US media and her US American fans ...

Anke
:evil: again

Better throw in the Canadian media and the Canadian fans, 'cause here we sit - also big fans of Michelle.

[cem]

Originally posted by Germanice
To me Michelle Kwan is the most OVERRATED skater of all times - of all skaters ... by the judges, the US media and her US American fans ...

Anke
:evil: again

:lol:
A skater in who has earned
4 World titles (plus 3 Silver Medals)

6 US National titles (plus 3 Silver)

Two Olympic medals
Silver and Bronze

Yeah she sure is overrated. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[loveskating]

IMHO Irina won the SP for reasons already stated, but as to Sasha vs. MK:

Both executed the same jumps, therefore, other factors are supposed to differentiate:

Sasha's 3 lutz/2 tl had more speed into it and out of it, was bigger and the 2 tl was bigger (consistency between the size etc. of the two jumps in ANY combination is supposed to differentiate) Sasha's proper backspin position in the air was (and usually is) top notch, second only to Irina, IMHO. Sasha just covered a lot of ice on the lutz and the runout was spectacular up to the 2 tl.

Sasha's axel is usually better than Michelle Kwan's...both do it the correct way...but Sasha has more speed into it, hers is more secure, she gets more height and ice coverage, and her air position is totally "proper backspin position" and with a great arc....there was no bauble...that's called picking in, that's the way it is taught to most skaters. Actually, Sasha's axel is HUGE.

Sasha's Flip is among the best there is as to pure technique...and Kwan's isn't, and plus Michelle almost didn't land her flip.

Footwork: About the same

Spirals: Sasha's spiral sequence, which is the requirement, was just more difficult and her extension is quite superior to Kwan's. At SLC, just as secure on the edges. At best a tie, but I'd give it to Sasha due to the technical difficulty.

Spins: Michelle Kwan's spins are pretty and well centered, but they are very, very slow as compared to anyone, while Sasha's are generally very fast as compared to anyone except say Irina in that field, and Kwan's are not nearly as innovative as Sasha's (and according to the Canadian web site, innovation is supposed to be rewarded on all the elements). Speed trumps centering in any case, and Sasha has very, very fast spins in general, plus a FAR superior layback to Kwan's (so does Sarah). As for turnout and positions, all important in the presentation mark, no one beats Sasha Cohen on that, including on the spins.

IMHO the only thing outstanding in that performance of Michelle's was the two split falling leafs, and that is not enough. Even her footwork was not nearly as difficult or fast and intense as in 98 with the Rach.

As for the LP, Michelle two footed her planned 3/3 toe loop on the first jump of the combo, and doubled the second 3 tl so it was very tiny; she also fell on her flip, and was just generally very, very tight throughout, IMHO. The only excuse is that Kwan got in that second lutz after a 3 lutz/2 loop (loop tiny), but with a badly two footed easy combo and a fall on the flip, plus the other elements, it wasn't adding up to me.

Sasha fell on her combo, the 3 toe loop, but landed the lutz of her planned far more difficult combo...and was otherwise clean and intense.

[JDC1]

Probably this thread should be changed to - Who was overrated at SLC as that seems to be the way it's headed. :-)

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by loveskating
Sasha's 3 lutz/2 tl had more speed into it and out of it, was bigger and the 2 tl was bigger

I don't remember the SLC SP combinations that specifically, so I'll take your word for this for now.

Sasha's axel is usually better than Michelle Kwan's...both do it the correct way...but Sasha has more speed into it, hers is more secure, she gets more height and ice coverage, and her air position is totally "proper backspin position" and with a great arc

Yes, Sasha does get good spring on this jump and does have a lovely air position most of the time.

....there was no bauble...

Aw, most of the ladies wear baubles of some sort on their competition dresses. And Sasha bobbles the landing of her double axel more often than many, but perhaps not that time.

that's called picking in, that's the way it is taught to most skaters.

Huh? What does "picking in" have to do with an edge jump like the axel? I've only heard that term used for the toe part of the toe jumps.

Spirals: Sasha's spiral sequence, which is the requirement, was just more difficult and her extension is quite superior to Kwan's. At SLC, just as secure on the edges. At best a tie, but I'd give it to Sasha due to the technical difficulty.

But were her edges as *deep* as Michelle's? Did she cover as much ice with each stroke, and in each position? How many strokes did she need between positions? How much ice did she cover per second? Those things count too. On technical merit.

Spins: Michelle Kwan's spins are pretty and well centered, but they are very, very slow as compared to anyone, while Sasha's are generally very fast as compared to anyone except say Irina in that field, and Kwan's are not nearly as innovative as Sasha's (and according to the Canadian web site, innovation is supposed to be rewarded on all the elements).

I definitely agree about the speed and positions. I'd say they're about equal on innovation.

Speed trumps centering in any case,

Actually, most judges would probably tell you the opopsite. Both are valued, and being able to spin fast without traveling at all would be twice as valuable as only one or the other. But if it has to be just one or the other, everything else being equal, centering would probably trump speed.

Everything else is usually not completely equal, because skaters who spin faster are also usually able to achieve more total revolutions in the spin, and that can be another plus.

and Sasha has very, very fast spins in general, plus a FAR superior layback to Kwan's (so does Sarah).

Yes, and quite a few other skaters as well.

As for turnout and positions, all important in the presentation mark,

Who says it's all-important in the presentation mark? There are seven criteria for presentation, and turnout and positions would really only fit under "carriage and style," which includes other details as well.

no one beats Sasha Cohen on that, including on the spins.

Agreed that no one beats her on the turnout and positions, and any others who come close were not in competing in that event.

To return to subject of this thread, I think both Kwan and Cohen have frequently been overrated by commentators, occasionally by judges, and very frequently by subsets of their fans who go ga-ga over the things they do exceptionally well to the point of ignoring areas where their favorites are not the best as if they played no part at all in judging decisions.

(This is true of other skaters' fans as well, but these two in particular have inspired more than their fair share of hyperbole.)

Ignoring depth of edge and ice coverage on spirals, claiming that "speed trumps centering" on spins, or claiming that turnout and positions are "all important" for presentation are the areas where loveskating crosses the line in this post, IMO. We've all seen similar approaches by Kwan fans who refuse to admit that anyone does anything better than Michelle, and by anyone arguing in favor of any favorite skater who refuses to acknowledge the areas where their rival(s) might do something better.

And to cem . . . listing the skater's medals does nothing to counter the argument that a skater was overroated by the judgs, for someone who might happen to believe that all those medals were deserved. Certainly the claims that various Russian skaters have been repeatedly held up, recipients of gifts, etc., is an argument that they were overrated by judges . . . so listing, say, Grishuk & Platov's wins is not going to convince their detractors that they deserved all those medals or to be called greatest of all time or even of their era; why should listing Kwan's record have any different rhetorical effect?

But I usually take the term "overrated" to refer to hyperbole by media and fans more than to overmarking by judges, which seems to have been the thread starter's intention.

[spiralsrfun]

Excellent post Ellyn

[loveskating]

Or it could be "what skater has had the most gifts"

To which I'd answer: Kwan and Irina, but not necessarily against one another, although some of that too, and

IMHO, Sarah in the short programs is gifted often...I'd mark her down for her truly awful flutz and underrotating the flip and as to presentation, for the bent leg on the spiral and for being off center on her turns.

I don't think Sasha has had a single gift, not one, and quite to the contrary, especially recently.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Ellyn
[B]Ignoring depth of edge and ice coverage on spirals, claiming that "speed trumps centering" on spins, or claiming that turnout and positions are "all important" for presentation are the areas where loveskating crosses the line in this post, IMO. We've all seen similar approaches by Kwan fans who refuse to admit that anyone does anything better than Michelle, and by anyone arguing in favor of any favorite skater who refuses to acknowledge the areas where their rival(s) might do something better.

Hey Ellen:

I liked your post too...

Let's get this cleared up. I don't think position and turnout are the sum of presentation or "all important" (did I say that????). But aren't position and turn out important ASPECTS of presentation? If these are ONLY under carriage and posture, then Paul Wylie is wrong, because he said on one of those ABC lessons that how you "present" each and every element is included, as well...and he mentioned and demostrated things like extension, turnout, and positoin (line) as he demonstrated the spreadeagle, which, as you know, is an "in between" not even a required element. If he is wrong, or if I misunderstood him, I need to know, and so do we all!

I think ice coverage is very important, its part of the presentation mark, but I wasn't at SLC, so I didn't mention it...leaving that to those who were there, thinking I was in a group discussion.

I also need to make clear that I was speaking of ONE competition...for instance, if Kwan had skated the footwork section of the Rach like she did in 98, even at the Olympics, much less at that first Pro Ams afterwards, I would have given the footwork to her vs. Sasha in the SP at SLC. If Kwan had skated the LP like she did at 2000 or 2001 Worlds, no one could have beaten her (well, unless Irina had landed that 3 sal/3 loop and otherwise been spot on). I don't think she did, is all, she didn't come close IMHO.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that I think Sasha is better on everything than everyone else...I think Irina's jumps are quite superior to Sasha's, and so are Volchkova's (when she lands them)... and others. Sasha does not have a 3/3, so for goodness sakes, Sarah can beat her on that (and Sarah should get more than Kwan because her 3/3 is just more difficult...and forget it if Sarah lands 2 3/3s)! I think Irina's spirals are technically close to Sasha's, and I think Irina has the best edgeing of this field. I've never seen Sasha do a split falling leaf, but when it comes to that element, no one is better than Michelle Kwan, IMHO...so I can certainly agree with you that some skaters exceed the abilities in some respects of my favorite (Sasha) (we might dispute what those areas are, LOL).

Now, about spins: Its been posted, even here, numerous times, that speed trumps centering unless the centering really travels...and Sasha barely travels and usually only in her combination spin if then. The way I've understood that is that if a spin is well centered but slow, vs. a spin that is very fast but slighly travels, then the spin with more speed will get more credit.

If that is not so, what is the differentiation or does a slow, well centered spin beat a fast, slightly uncentered one (in general) (assuming one's arms are not flailing all over the place, etc.)

I'm sorry if I crossed the line...especially coming from you, for I respect you a lot, I take that very much to heart.

I certainly didn't intend to, for there is not a skater alive that I would consciously lie for when it comes to the rules and the skating issues...and that includes Sasha, but I recognize that I can be full of beans, totally mistaken...so please answer my questions because I am always trying to learn more about skating.

[icedtea]

Over-rated skaters who consistently seemed to receive "gifts" through their competitive years, in my opinion: Maria Butryskaya, Surya Bonaly, Debbie Thomas, Elvis Stojko, Alexei Urmanov.

[momslovelove]

I love threads like this. Overrated is always the other skater ,but of course not each fans fav. All skaters are given gifts at one time or another. Some are given high marks and ordinals they dont deserve lots of the time. The overrated skaters are the ones that are held up time and again. I wonder who they are? SLC was great for showing the corrupt judges and judging. So since we cant keep defending the judges for so and so winning, we now must find another way to make sure your fav. was not overrated and of course the other skater was. Just love the rational to make everyones fav. the one who isnt overrated. The comparisions are again to uphold your fav. Love it.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by loveskating
Let's get this cleared up. I don't think position and turnout are the sum of presentation or "all important" (did I say that????).

OK, so you didn't really mean it.

(And I needed to proofread some of my typos!)

But aren't position and turn out important ASPECTS of presentation?

Sure. But so are "easy movement and sureness," "utilization of the area," "variation of speed," "expression of the character of the music" -- none of which have anything to do with position or turnout. Even upper-body carriage is not directly related to turnout, although it certainly is to position.

As for originality . . . often a deliberately turned-in position will be more original than a classic ballet-inspired one (which is not to say that skaters who make halfhearted attempts at classic spin or spiral positions and fall short should get credit for originality, but a carefully chosen alternative could get credit for originality while also covering up for a lack of turnout).

If these are ONLY under carriage and posture, then Paul Wylie is wrong, because he said on one of those ABC lessons that how you "present" each and every element is included, as well...and he mentioned and demostrated things like extension, turnout, and positoin (line) as he demonstrated the spreadeagle, which, as you know, is an "in between" not even a required element. If he is wrong, or if I misunderstood him, I need to know, and so do we all!

I don't think he is wrong, I just think it's a mistake to boil down even "how you present every element" to body position. A lot of presenting the elements has to do with timing and confidence too.

I think Cohen generally does a good job with all those things, so I'm just talking theoretically here.

Good line and carriage can be pervasive in a very polished skater like Wylie or Cohen or Kwan and affect everything that they do on their ice, which makes that one criterion a much bigger strength for them than for someone like Hughes or Slutskaya who may have a few stunning positions but weaknesses in carriage or extension in the rest of the program.

But the "carriage and style" criterion isn't the only one that can be pervasive through everything the skater does. A skater with really deep edges and soft knees may demonstrate those qualities all the way through the program with every stroke. A skater who is exceptionally musical may use every note of the music in subtle ways while others just relate to the obvious highlights.

Look at, say, Candeloro in his best eligible performances. His positions, turnout, extension, carriage, etc., were distinctly below average . . . so if those criteria were the only ones that counted for the presentation mark, he would always have suffered on that mark. But in fact he often got very high presentation marks when he skated well-crafted, original programs with distinctly above-average speed (and variation of speed), relation to the music, and especially the confidence or "attack" and full-body commitment that pervaded the whole performance. So that's another part of presenting every element and in-between move that's not explicitly mentioned in the presentation criteria (well, maybe it would fit under "easy movement and sureness") but that definitely has a large effect on the second mark.

I think ice coverage is very important, its part of the presentation mark, but I wasn't at SLC, so I didn't mention it...leaving that to those who were there, thinking I was in a group discussion.

I wasn't there either . . . I usually make at least a token mention of it as a criterion and solicit input those who were if I'm trying to do a thorough comparison.

I also need to make clear that I was speaking of ONE competition...for instance, if Kwan had skated the footwork section of the Rach like she did in 98, even at the Olympics, much less at that first Pro Ams afterwards, I would have given the footwork to her vs. Sasha in the SP at SLC.

And I didn't take issue with your footwork point, because they weren't clear enough in my memory . . . but now that you mention it, as I recall Michelle's step sequence in that performance was pretty "muddy" and off the music compared to the way she skated it four years earlier.

For the record, I would have ranked those SPs as Slutskaya, Kwan, Cohen, Butyrskaya (some shakiness, but no deductions), Hughes (more secure, but also some real deductions), so I'm not disputing that a case could be made for putting Kwan third . . . just that I don't think Cohen had as many clear advantages as you claimed.

Now, about spins: Its been posted, even here, numerous times, that speed trumps centering unless the centering really travels...

Hm, by whom?
A number of Kwan proponents frequently decry the horrible traveling in Slutskaya's spins even when it's rather mild (and fail to notice when Michelle's spins do sometimes wander from center), and in response I've often pointed out that it wasn't that bad and there were other things about Irina's spins that were better. The same is true for Sasha, who does have some of the better spins in the current field -- but she's not called on their flaws nearly as much as Irina is when they are flawed (well, except at the end of her Campbell's performance this year, that was more than just traveling).

When I've trial-judged at test sessions (juvenile level and below) or judged basic skills competitions, I have heard judges state explicitly that they would rather see three revolutions of a well-controlled, centered spin than twelve revolutions that were all over the place. So I do think that if we had to name one aspect of spinning that is given the most technical weight, it would be centering. That doesn't, however, mean that it's the *only* aspect of the spin that counts in the technical mark.

I'm sorry if I crossed the line...especially coming from you, for I respect you a lot, I take that very much to heart.

Thanks. :-)
Well, you know I like these kind of analyses . . . and I did agree with many of your conclusions, there were only those three points that I had a problem with. Which, added together with your silence on the areas where Kwan might have had an advantage, and your sig line, suggested a possible lack of objectivity.

[duane]

thanks to both loveskating and ellyn for the very informative posts.

and ellyn--if you dont mind--could you, for the record, state how you would have ranked the LP?

[thvudragon]

loveskating, i don't see how you would put Sasha over Michelle in the jumps department. No way are Sasha's jumps aproached with more speed than Michelle's. Michelle's combination was HIGHER and covered more ice than Sasha's. Also, look at the speed out of Sasha's 2toe. It was very slow. Sasha almost didn't land her 2axel also. How can you say there was no bobble on the landing? A "Whoa!" was even said by Scott H. and Sandra on that landing during their commentary. Also, Sasha had a pause on the entrance into her flip, Michelle had almost no pause whatsoever, she did mis-takeoff on the takeoff though.

On the footwork, MK's was more difficult, and was skated with much better speed. Sasha's footwork was meager and slow, and wasn't complete. "It's a little bit shallow...... there might be a deduction" That's what Scott H. said about Sasha's footwork. Also, put the footwork from 98 Nat Rach and 2002 Oly Rach back2back. They are almost the same, except 2002 oly footwork is a bit easier. She eliminated 2 3 turns towards the end of the sequence. She was right on with the music.

Again, the spins I give to Sasha. The positions are harder and better, and they are faster. Michelle's are more centered.

On spirals, these HAVE to go to Michelle. Right now, she has the best spirals in the world. Sasha does have AMAZING extension, but her spirals are SLOW and SHALLOW on the edges. Her leg position may be more difficult, but her basic skating in them isnt. She also had much more strokes in between her spirals than Michelle did. The winner here is definetly Michelle.

Also, it is often said that Sasha's ice coverage and usage of it is very poor compared to other top ladies, so here, she loses.

There is no way Sasha beat Michelle in the SP. It has no logic to it.

TV

[AdrianFan]

Thank you very much. I was worrying if I had become schizofranic when reading loveskating's post. Couldn't understand a thing. Now I know it wasn't just me. 8-)

[hydro]

performances that were "over-rated" in my opinion:

Irina at last season's GPF - no way did she win it, and no way should she have even finished 2nd in the second LP. the judges that put her 1st were all eastern bloc judges, and every other judge put her in 3rd. that says a lot

S&P's Oly Freeskate - i know i'll get dogged for this, but they took the easier program of Love Story and skated it well when they should have skated to Orchid. B&S may have made a mistake, but they demonstrated pairs elements better, IMO, than S&P and deserved their Gold - cheating judges or not.

Michelle at the 2001 GWG - should have been 3rd behind Fumie. Michelle only landed 3 triples and was quite slow and her spins looked pretty weak.

Sasha at 2000 Nationals - no way did she beat Sarah with a 3/3 - that peformance was all hype, and that was back when Sasha's edges were, um, not so good. If i remember correctly, it was a 5-4 split between Sasha and Sarah for second. Sarah had Sasha beat that night, no question in my mind.



as for the Oly Ladies competition, it was the biggest crock of judging in the LP if i've ever seen one. Irina's four first place ordinals were a sham, imo. who cares if she skated clean, she completed 6 triples, with one of those just barely landed. she looked slow and tentative, not at all up to her usual excellence. Sarah should have had all first place ordinals across the panel, and i think Irina got lucky landing in second. i also didn't think Irina was better than Michelle, certainly not in the presentation mark. Michelle's skate, while flawed, had just the same jump content save the flip, and the entire program was executed much better than Irinas. i would have ranked the LP: Sarah, Michelle, Irina, Sasha. Sasha's LP could hardly be considered well constructed, and she didn't have a lutz combination.


the judging for the SP was a bit better, but a few judges were clearly biased (the Russian judge had Sarah in 10th place!) Michelle deservedly won the SP on the presentation mark - while Irina skated a better technical program, her presentation that night was pretty far from her usual standard, and that landed her in second place. it was a 5-4 split in favor of Michelle, and Michelle won it on the presentation (straight 5.9s across the board - when was the last time that happened?). Michelle's program was solid and complete, and she deserved her win in the SP. I didn't think Sasha was anywhere close to the top 2, but closer to Irina than to Michelle. I probably would have had Maria in 3rd, then Sasha, then Sarah from what i saw. US television didn't broadcast Fumie, but from reports she skated very well.

[AdrianFan]

This out cry of Irina WUZ ROBBED in the Olympic SP has always been beyond me. And their one and only reason makes me laugh even harder--every single poster that I have seen complaining about this always mentions how Irina was technically superior than Michelle because Michelle underrotatd the flip. Um, hello? Did anyone, besides me, notice that Michelle received 5.5s for her technical marks? It was the 5.9s across the board that placed her in 1st, and even with those 5.9s she still barely beat Irina. So, what's so unfair about the placements here ANYWAY?

[thvudragon]

I totally agree with you hydro on Irina and S&P. Irina is always overated. S&P skated the cleaner program, but it was much easier.

I actually would still have had Sasha in 2nd at 2000 Nats. Sarah's 3/3 was cheated. She also had, and still has, poor presention skills and a myriad of cheated jumps, and that awful flutz. Sasha's presentation was, and still is top notch and much, much better than Sarah's. If Sasha didn't fall, I actually would have put her 1st. Michelle was a little timid that night and held back a little. I can't believe I said that, since I'm such a Kwandophile. She got it back though with her 2000 Worlds Freeskate. That program was just amazing.

At the GWG, didn't Michelle land 4 clean triples? She double the loop, singled the flip, and 2-footed the 2nd 3toe. Michelle's presentation is much better than Fumie's. Michelle also had that so-so 3/3, so I would still have had her 2nd.

On SLC short, Sarah got the biggest gift. That 4th for her was unwarented. I would still have had it:

Irina or Michelle
Sasha
Maria
Fumie or Sarah

TV

[thvudragon]

One judge actually gave Michelle 5.9/5.9 in the SP. Now that I think about it, Michelle actually did deserve 1st in the SP. I would have had it

Michelle 5.6 5.9
Irina 5.8 5.6

Irina was a little timid and held back now that I rewatch.

TV

[AdrianFan]

I don't think Sasha's presentatiion is "much, much" better than Sarah's, although, it IS better to a degree and I admit she is more pleasing to watch, but IMO the only place where Sasha is "much, much" better than Sarah is "carriage and style". And you can't deny the fact that this is really the first thing that catches people's eyes (judges and fans), especially the fans'. Other than that, IMO Sarah is better than Sasha in "variation of speed", "ice coverage", and possibly "originality".

[thvudragon]

You make good points. I just don't know how you see "originality" in Sarah's skating. Robin Wagner is a very poor choreographer. She doesn't know how to create movements that relate well to the music. The moves are just "there" and don't say much. Sasha has a spark. Yes, her carriage and posture are supererior to almost everyone. Sarah had and still has poor posture, which creates a very awkward and gawky look in her skating, especially her Y-Spin.

If Sasha landed that 3lutz/3toe at the oly fs, I would have put her ahead of Sarah, giving Sasha the gold. As for 2000, Sasha seemed more complete to me. But, if she skated before Sarah, Sasha probably would have been in 3rd.

TV

[AdrianFan]

IMO Robin Wagner is not that poor of a choreographer. The new LP Sarah performed at Campbell's actually had some interesting choreography. Her Vocalise program from 2001 was also very beautiful. I've always had the feeling that Robin is trying to do something interesting and different for Sarah but somehow she can't quite grasp the right feeling. I also think the problem with her program is not really the choreography, but rather Sarah's execution of it. She is almost poor in "ease of movement" and I never get the feeling that she feels the music, not even during her triumphant Oly LP. These two problems make her appear awkward at times and just, well, doesn't sing. That said, however, I don't think Sarah is "poor" in presentation but rather strong, overall. Plus she has very powerful long strokes and very lovely flow.

[thvudragon]

I guess this is why figure skating is such a subjective sport. People have such different opinions. Anyway, you make good points.

On the overated thing, I think the judges really overated Sarah during Campbell's. The canadian judge gave Sarah a 5.9 in presentation and only gave Michelle a 5.4! That itself was a crime against humanity. On Sarah's program, i feel it is too full. Robin seems to be trying to fit in way to many things, which impede on the flow of the program. Also, Sarah's movements don't really fit the music, especially her ending pose. One part I wish they would get rid of are those 2 illlusion spins at the beginning and the end of her footwork. They are really out of place and look really awkward.

TV

[AdrianFan]

I agree Sarah's marks were unfairly hig at Campbell's for a performance like that.

Now, my pick for overrated skaters (here I don't necessarily base this on the marks they are given by the judges or their placements in competitions but the general hype and over-the-board gushing from media and fans): Sale/Pelltier, Alexei Yagudin (whom I'm a big fan of), and Sasha Cohen with SC being the leader by far.

And the skaters I think are overmarked most of the time:
Irina Slutskya in presentation, Yoshie Onda (ridiculously) in presentation and sometimes technique, Timothy Goeble in presentation, Viktoria Volchkova, Shen/Zhao in presentation.

[loveskating]

Hi Ellyn:

Thanks for clearing some stuff up...but I'm wondering if the ISU has a different rule on the spins, as in the spiral or layback rules (its said that the classic layback is not a differential and also that on the spiral, the leg has to be above the waist only)???

About my sig line, my favorites are often not the gold winnners... I like who I like, for my own reasons and I don't care about the medals. For instance, I adore Yagudin, but Abt and Honda are my personal faves, although except in one instance, I'd never argue or think that Abt beat Yagudin. I know Honda is very inconsistent, but I just love his skating, his style, his detail, so most of the time, I enjoy him slightly more than I do Plushy or Yags, who I think are the overall more accomplished and certainly more consistent.

Your point about Candeloro and turnout was great! I'm not a fan of his lately (since he takes his clothes off on the ice), but his 98 LP was really fabulous, tickled me to death, and he won bronze fair and square...it was indeed great presentation and with pretty bad turnout, LOL!

[loveskating]

I stated earlier that I thought Irina, Kwan and Hughes had been given the most gifts.

What I think is that once you start consistently winning competitions, you are the one who get the gifts...its an "affliction" of the poor winners so to speak...solely their pervue, LOL!

I can't think if a single gift for Angela Nikodinov, Sasha Cohen, Alexander Abt, A.P. McDonaugh, etc. etc.

I guess its the brownie points issue someone else raised, i.e. that in order to defeat the champ, you have to decisively beat them? That's been the tradition in skating. I used to agree with it, but after SLC, I don't think I do anymore.

In any case, getting gifts and being accused of getting gifts is probably just one of the prices of winning?