Compare the elements of MK, SC, and SH [Archive]

spiralsrfun

12-04-2002, 04:03 PM

Inspired by another thread on who's going to win Nationals. Lets have a nice calm discussion about the strengths of our top three ladies. Ah....our USA Ladies - so much talent, it's a shame they're all in one country. ;)

First of all, let me state a plain fact here, Michelle Kwan is the "one to beat" at 2003 Nationals...she has been since 1996. Her attitude this season is completely different and refreshing and she will be ready to defend her title...make no mistake of that. Sasha and Sarah are the obvious top challengers to Michelle, that is also a clear fact.

Away with the facts for a moment, and time for our opinions...

Element by element, rank who has the advantage, and state why:

Laybacks:
1) Sasha has the best of the three: excellent position, speed and centering.
2) Sarah also has great position, but it is slower than Sasha's.
3) Michelle's is fast, beautiful, centered and different, but less difficuilt than the others.

Spirals:
1) Michelle has owned the spiral for years, and still does. She gets a 170 split and it's faster, deeper, and more secure than anyone else in the world.
2) Sasha gets a perfect 180 degree split with good and improved flow, edges and speed this season...but it's still not the best, though beautiful.
3) Sarah gets great extension, but her leg is always bent, and the speed is not there. It's been surpassed by Sasha now IMO.

Fun jumps...lol:
Sasha's russian split jump is the best in the world, hands down...
Michelle's split falling leaf jump is the best in the world, hands down...

Footwork:
1) Michelle/Sasha...they both have made great improvements this season, and both with the help of Morosov, are pushing that element in the world right now.
2) Sarah...remains to be seen yet.

Double axel:
1) Sarah's best jump
2) Michelle/Sasha great, but it's Sarah's jump

Triple Jumps:
Sarah's advantages are difficulty & consistency
Sarah's disadvantage is very poor technique, especially on toe jumps

Michelle's advantages are good technique, consistency and beautiful runout
Michelle's disadvantage is lack of a difficult 3/3 combination

Sasha's advantages are difficult entries and beautiful air positions
Sasha's disadvantages are jerky/strange runouts and inconsistency

(Overall jump advantage IMO then goes to Kwan if they all have clean skates)

Moves in the field:
Wheeeee! Sasha(TM) (of course) need I state the reasons. ;)

Carraige/posture:
1) Michelle: Effortless, she IS carraige and posture...just watch her back while stroking for example, she is almost straight as opposed to bent over.
2) Sasha: Big improvement over last season but not at Kwan's level yet.
3) Sarah: Still a little gawky and rounded at times.

Line/Attention to detail:
1) Michelle: From her skates to her her finger tips...everything is finished and polished, yet subtle, as is her style.
1) Sasha: Yes, a tie! Sasha now has attained this same level of detail, but her style is more flashy, while Kwan's is subtle. Apples/Oranges ;)
2) Sarah: Has not yet refined her line yet and still has moments of juniorish lack of detail IMO.

Spins:
1) I have to go with Sarah on this because of her control, centering, positions, good speed and strength.
2) Michelle...a very close second.
3) Sasha: Yes, I know, her spins are *WoW* but they tend to get away from her, travel and she loses control, unlike MK and SH. (see Campbell's combo spin) If she can get control ALL the time...she will be the spin queen.

Overall Edging:
1) Michelle is the mistress of the edge, every edge...see Field of Gold.
2) Sasha: another BIG improvement this season...much more security and variety than in the past...can you say Tarasova. ;)
3) Sarah

Musicality/Expression:
1) Michelle: I don't need to explain this. This is her strength.
2) Sasha: ANOTHER improvement, but it still seems a little forced at times, but she's so close to kwan on this now.
3) The only time I ever felt she had these qualities in a performance was at 2001 Worlds and 2002 Olympics.

Things like "pure artistry, costume, hair, etc..." are too subjective and open to individual taste, so I won't rank that. Style/Artistry is a personal choice I think, which is why we love our favorites.

So, based on all of this...while all three ladies are stronger than the others in some areas, If Michelle/Sasha/Sarah all skate clean and strong programs at Nationals/Worlds/Whatever...Michelle still has the edge...because she's still the best "overall" complete skater of the three IMO.

jss

12-04-2002, 04:12 PM

Your thoughts are very interesting and very well thought out.

I'm sure this topic will spark lots of debate.

danibellerika

12-04-2002, 04:48 PM

I think Sasha's the best ladies spinner in the US. She's the fastest one and of course her positions and variety are nice as well. I think that spin at campbell's was just out of lack of concentration but for the most part, her spins are the most impressive. Her speed has to count for something. No one is going to be perfect at anything ALL the time.

cocanuts

12-04-2002, 04:52 PM

i agree with some tings and not with others. I think sarah is ultimately the best because she is the most consisten and has the 3/3's that the other two struggle with. she also has artistry, spins and line. she is great!! i think sasha could be the best if she could get consistent and get her 2 3/3's down. michelle's time is running out and i dont know how much loinger she can do it.

bcskater

12-04-2002, 06:41 PM

i agree with most of the stuff you compared, except a few
Originally posted by spiralsrfun
Footwork:
1) Michelle/Sasha...they both have made great improvements this season, and both with the help of Morosov, are pushing that element in the world right now.
2) Sarah...remains to be seen yet.

i think that sashas' footwork is HEADS ABOVE michelles' footwork. Even though sasha is still not completely comfortable with the new style and difficulty of it (i.e.-skate canada short program), her efforts show that by worlds there will be no contest with the other ladies

Originally posted by spiralsrfun

Double axel:
1) Sarah's best jump
2) Michelle/Sasha great, but it's Sarah's jump

i agree with your order but i dont think that either sasha or michelle have great double axels. sashas looks exciting because of the height and distance, but she is constantly struggling to control it. michelles 2axel has always been one of those "holding your breath" elements, its lovely when she does it, but you can still see her tense up as she enters it.

Originally posted by spiralsrfun

Spins:
1) I have to go with Sarah on this because of her control, centering, positions, good speed and strength.
2) Michelle...a very close second.
3) Sasha: Yes, I know, her spins are *WoW* but they tend to get away from her, travel and she loses control, unlike MK and SH. (see Campbell's combo spin) If she can get control ALL the time...she will be the spin queen.

no i think sashas spins are the best.

Originally posted by spiralsrfun

Musicality/Expression:
1) Michelle: I don't need to explain this. This is her strength.
2) Sasha: ANOTHER improvement, but it still seems a little forced at times, but she's so close to kwan on this now.
3) The only time I ever felt she had these qualities in a performance was at 2001 Worlds and 2002 Olympics.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS. sasha is getting close to michelle but sometimes she just looks so focused while michelle always looks like shes enjoying it.

Cmoneynoair

12-04-2002, 10:17 PM

Laybacks: Sasha
Spirals: Sasha
Double Axel: Sarah
Fun Jumps: Sasha
Triple Jumps: Michelle
Footwork: Sasha
Other Moves: Sasha
Attention To Detail: Michelle
Posture: Michelle
Edging: Michelle
Expression/Music: Sasha
Spins: Sasha
:) :) :) :)

Badams

12-04-2002, 10:25 PM

"michelle's time is running out and i dont know how much loinger she can do it."

:lol: that's quite a doom and gloom attitude! or perhaps wishful thinking so that your favorite might shine! :lol: :lol: :lol:

nits

12-04-2002, 10:28 PM

I think you're all comparing the current Sasha to past MK and SH performances, right? Nobody has seen the improvements of Kwan or Hughes yet this season...maybe the comparisons should wait until Nationals?

jss

12-04-2002, 10:29 PM

I don't think you can say that Sarah is the best overall. The judges have shown that when Sasha and Michelle skate clean that they put them over Sarah. The thing that has always bothered me about Sarah are the toe jump take offs and that she still sometimes looks gawky and awkward. I can't tell if it is her posture or just the way she is built (I personally think it is her build) but it just bothers me. She does have the jumps going for her though, and we haven't seen what Sarah has been working on. Now after watching some of my tapes here are my thoughts:

Laybacks: Sasha
Spirals: Michelle
Double Axel: Sarah
Footwork: Michelle but Sasha is catching up
Triple Jumps: Michelle
Moves In The Field: Sasha
Carriage/Posture: Michelle
Line/Attention To Detail: Michelle
Spins: Sarah
Edging: Michelle
Musicality/Expression: My vote is for Michelle. I think Sasha and Michelle are excellent in this area. Sasha skates to the music and I think Michelle skates from the music. Make sense?

duane

12-05-2002, 12:23 AM

Laybacks: (tie) Sarah/Sasha
Spirals: Sasha
Double Axel: Sarah
Fun Jumps: (tie) Michelle/Sasha
Triple Jumps: Michelle
Footwork: Sasha
Moves in field: Sasha
Line/Attention To Detail: (tie) Michelle/Sasha
Carraige/Posture: Michelle
Edging: Michelle
Expression/Music: Michelle
Spins: Sasha

DBZ

12-05-2002, 01:51 AM

Laybacks: Sasha
Spirals: Michelle (Sasha has better extension, but in terms of everything else -- speed, ice coverage, secure edging, etc. -- Michelle's are better)
Double Axel: Sarah (The only jump I think she does well)
Fun Jumps: Michelle (Give a slight edge to Michelle because achieving a perfect split in a falling-leaf is more difficult than in a Russian Split)
Triple Jumps: Michelle (Gorgeous Landings!)
Footwork: Michelle (I'm not a fan of the Tarasova/Morosov, "stopping-and-starting" template)
Moves in field: Sasha (Her charlotte, among other moves, are stunning)
Line/Attention To Detail: Michelle (Down to her fingertips!)
Carraige/Posture: Michelle
Edging: Michelle
Expression/Music: Michelle (Too much emoting and angst-faces from Sasha in my opinion)
Spins: Sasha (Beautiful, fast positions)

JDC1

12-05-2002, 09:31 AM

Laybacks - Sasha
Spirals - Michelle (her obvious superior edge and speed)
2 axel - Sarah (GORGEOUS...where's the 3axel?)
Fun Jumps - Michelle, the falling leafs are to die for and harder than the Russian split.
3 Jumps - Michelle, better flow in and out and MORE consistent, she as more 7 triple programs than Sarah.
Footwork - Michelle's is harder, Sasha's is flashier.
MITF- Sasha, love, love her Charlotte and Ina Bauer and her TM moves. :-)
Carriage/Posture - virtual tie. In general skating it's Michelle but in the air it's Sasha, I LOVE when they slo-mo her jumps.
Edging - no contest Michelle. You'd have to look outside of eligibles to find better edges and that would be Yuka Sato.
Expression/Music - Michelle, she becomes the music, which is why her music choice is SO critical.
Spins - Sarah. I think hers are faster than Michelle's and better centered and more controlled than Sasha's.

spiralsrfun

12-05-2002, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by danibellerika
I think Sasha's the best ladies spinner in the US. She's the fastest one and of course her positions and variety are nice as well. I think that spin at campbell's was just out of lack of concentration but for the most part, her spins are the most impressive. Her speed has to count for something. No one is going to be perfect at anything ALL the time.
I completely agree with you danibellerika, but I used the Campbell's spin only as one example. Campbell's wasn't the only time she almost fell out of a spin, it's happened several times before. I completely agree that Sasha does have the best spins of the three, when they're centered, controlled and secure. But everything must be considered when looking at elements, and that what I tried to do.

backspin

12-05-2002, 09:56 AM

This is a very interesting discussion!

I haven't sat down & studied each individual element to be able to comment & compare.

But I would like to add that I think Michelle's choreography has been lacking the past 2 years & it worries me. If they all skate clean but her program isn't as exciting / innovative / beautifully put together, I think she could lose to a better choreographed program. I really like Sasha's lp this year, & the one time I saw Michelle's (SA) it didn't do much for me.

Note I'm not making any comment on the *skating*, just the choreography. IMO, that's a VERY important consideration.

spiralsrfun

12-05-2002, 10:33 AM

I agree backspin...choreography is very important, but that can be better judged at Nationals when all their programs are more developed. Michelle's LP was only a few weeks old at SA.

Also, considering Michelle's lack of "heavy" choreography over the last two years...I agree, but that seems to be changing now that she's working with Williams and others. Her SP was a big hit at SA and according to many reports, and Janet Swan Hill, it was very different for Michelle, sexy and exciting with amazing in-betweens and an excellent straightline footwork sequence. Morosov helped choreograph this, so it seems she's making an effort to stretch her choreographic muscles again...which is good news indeed. ;)

quarkiki2

12-05-2002, 10:40 AM

This is a fun topic!

Laybacks: I think both Sarah and Sasha have beautiful laybacks, but I prefer Sarah's and Angela's stretched out position to the super curve of Sasha's. I don't think that Michelle's is bad, either -- it's certainly better than most, though the position isn't as extreme as Sasha's nor as perfectly classical as Sarah's or Angela's.

Spirals: Sasha has super positions, but Michelle's security and edges are so solid. Sarah's forward inside spiral is beautiful -- if only she'd straighten her free leg! So I have to say Michelle -- it's all about the edges and her almost split is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Double Axel: Sarah, duh!

Fun Jumps: I like both Michelle's falling leaves and Sasha's Russian splits, but since I was a ballerina and not a cheerleader, I've got to go with the falling leaves! Sarah does a nice falling leaf, too, but it pales a bit with the fantastic positions Michelle and Sasha achieve.

Triple Jumps: Michelle. Her technique is just better. I know they all flutz, but hers is generally the smallest flutz and her runout is superior.

Footwork: I've always likes Michelle's footwork passes. I think that the one in her LP this year is fabulous and shows tremendous control of edges. I think that Sasha's this year is fun and eye-catching. I don't remember Sarah's from Campbells. I'd call it a tie, honestly, between Sasha and Michelle. Michelle's in harder, but Sasha's is more dramatic.

Moves in field: I simply think all three of these women excel in this area. Don't make me choose!

Line/Attention To Detail: Again, think that all of these women and Ann-Patrice, Angela, and Jenny are all terrific here. The US is truly blessed with the women who can put beautiful programs out there!

Carraige/Posture: Michelle simply has the best ease of movement. Although her back isn't as ram-rod straight as Cohen's, the fluidity with which she moves is unmatched in the eligible ranks.

Edging: Michelle, no question. Though none of these women are slouches, hers is easily the best.

Expression/Music: I think that this is a preference question, and I prefer Michelle's expression. Then Sarah's, then Sasha's. I sometimes think that when Sasha's in "attack mode" she is so fierce that it looks like she wants to kill the ice, and that's not always what the music calls for.

Spins: This is another one which is hard for me to decide. Michelle's spins are generally the most centered (when was the last time one of her spins moved more than six inches?). Sasha's positions are the most extreme. Sarah's are always solid. All three have terrific positions and good transitions between positions. None of them are fast like Slutskaya, but all three generally have better transitions and centering than Irina.

I dunno, I personally think that these three women are fabulously talented and, if pressed, couldn't make a prediction for Nationals. Much as I hate to say it, I think it will come down to the number of jumps landed and the cleanest program. If all 3 gave the performance of a lifetime on the same night, I'd say Michelle wins because her basic skating is just so good, but I couldn't pick between Sasha and Sarah because I think they are very well-matched. Anyone smell a sweep at Worlds?

RoseAugust

12-05-2002, 10:45 AM

Layback: Sarah
Spirals: Michelle
Double Axel: Sarah
Fun Jumps: Michelle
Triple Jumps: Michelle
Footwork: Michelle (I'm so hoping that the footwork section in her SP by Morozov isn't the style he's done for Yagudin, Cohen, Arakawa, etc.)
Other Moves: (tie) Sasha/Michelle
Attention to Detail: Michelle
Posture: (tie) Sasha/Michelle
Edging: Michelle
Expression/Music: Michelle
Spins: (tie) Sasha (for speed)/Sarah (for positions)

Sarah didn't show up to much on this list, which I think is a little misleading because her consistency and 3/3's count for alot.

missmarysgarden

12-05-2002, 12:54 PM

I agree with all your observations, spiralsrfun - and many of the others. I especially agree with whoever compared Michelle's edging with Yuka's - I think the two of them are in a class by themselves - and Yuka probably has the "edge" (sorry for the pun!) - for the absolute silent,silky, security of her edges (sorry for the aliteration!).

Regarding Sarah's posture. Her body positions frequently grate on me, even when she is performing at her best. It seems that she can "pose" with a straight line, shoulder's down and neutral, but once she starts skating/moving, she either juts her chin forward in order to pull her shoulders back, or she pulls her shoulders up in order to pull her chin back in line. This is sometimes because of the angle between the scapula and the spine, and/or between the spine and the skull - it is not the same in everyone. I just think Sarah has a sort of awkward angle naturally that causes her head to be too far forward, and has a hard time compensating for it because when she does, it throws other things out of balance. Tim Goebel has the same problem. If you look at unposed candid shots of either one, you will see their jaw jutting forward, and that the spine doesn't continue in a straight line after it passes the scapula. As a result, they look awkward. It bothers some people a lot - and others not so much. Its like fingernails on a chalkboard to me, so no matter how strong, fast, or consistent Sarah is, I just can't enjoy watching her perform or compete.

bcskater

12-05-2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by missmarysgarden

Regarding Sarah's posture. Her body positions frequently grate on me, even when she is performing at her best. It seems that she can "pose" with a straight line, shoulder's down and neutral, but once she starts skating/moving, she either juts her chin forward in order to pull her shoulders back, or she pulls her shoulders up in order to pull her chin back in line.
i completely see what your talking about here. i never really noticed it before, but now i do. :P

yogurtslinger

12-06-2002, 01:29 AM

You know, before when everyone was talking about how Michelle had better "flow" or what not, I just couldn't see it. But I do think that she has one advantage over Sasha (besides the consistent jumps of course) and that's "comfort" and command over the ice. Experience does count.. and it shows in how easily Michelle takes the ice.. she *does* make things look easy. Or maybe I'm just saying that because Michelle's so consistent.. that one doesn't feel nervous watching her. But it's something else too.. while I still think that Sasha has more potential and also better expression of the music, I still get the feeling that she's not quite "free". You get someone like Oksana who comes along once every ten years who just wears her heart on her sleeves naturally (NNN has that same spark, I thought) and while Sasha's better than Oksana in many ways, I never get the feeling that Sasha's truly letting everything out on to the ice.

Hmm... guess my point is that while Michelle might not have the most potential, or be the best dancer, etc., she really does seem very "free" on the ice- and giving us everything she's got. Which is refreshing compared to a less comfortable, more focused Sasha. All of you must go download her new short program, it's great.

Scott

12-06-2002, 07:20 AM

It iws so hard to compare element by element but I will say that when it comes to spins Sashas are better than Michelle's. I think that this is particularly true when you look at the sit spins. Michelles are slow and the position is not that difficult.

I still say that while Michelle is definately the sentimental favorite Nationals is Sashas to lose. If Sasha and Michelle both fail to have good clean skates then Sarah could win based on her jumping despite her technique flaws.

Should be an interesting competition. We have to remember that three other skaters will have an impact at Nationals this year and they could really upset the apple cart: Jenny Kirk, who has improved dramatically in the last year, Ann Patrice who is moving on up real quick, and of course Angela! Of these three Angela could challenge for the gold ( her technical abilities rival Cohen's and Kwans and I think surpass Hughes- she just needs to hold it together!!)

missmarysgarden

12-06-2002, 09:34 AM

I tend to agree with you, Scott, about Sasha's spins being better than Michelle's. I think spinning has always been Michelle's weakness with regard to speed and extreme positions. However, I also agree that Michelle's spins are consistently centered, which is a technical requirement - and Sasha is still weak in this regard. Since I am a (gymnastics) judge, I am often in a position where one competitor is strong in say 2 of 4 technical requirements for a skill, and another competitor is strong in the other 2 - how do you reflect that in a score?? As a tie... and the tie breaker is presentation - so if I applied that criteria, Sasha "wins the spins"! Before anyone jumps on me, I realize that gymnastics judging is a different system. What would happen is that each gymnast would receive the same deductions for the technical deficits, and consideration to the overall skill would be a consideration when addressing presentation (which we call artistry). I would, tho, also credit Michelle for her entry and exit which usually has better flow.

As far as Michelle's "flow" vs Sasha's -- that feeling of security one has when Michelle is competing is, I think, a two-way phenomenon. Michelle's experience as a consistent skater givers her a sense of security because she doesn't have to "think" about everything she is doing - lots of it is on automatic pilot - "muscle memory" - a real phenomenon. Muscle memory is a factor of the number of times you repeat the combination of "flex/relax" of a variety of muscles with the proper timing and intensity to achieve the desired action - MINUS - the number of times you repeat it incorrectly. Usually when someone is on the high side of this equation, you only have to send one message, eg., "salchow" - and it happens. If it has "happened" correctly 500 times and incorrectly 100 times in say the past 2 years (practice and competition), the chances are 5 to 1 that it will happen correctly. That's the biomechanical basis of consistency. In coaching, when a gymnast repeatedly does a skill incorrectly or unsuccessfully, the preferable training technique is to stop them from doing the skill and go back to basics - break it down to the individual parts, until you get to a level where the skill is done successfully - say a double instead of a triple. Repeating a skill incorrectly teaches you to do it incorrectly.

In competition, there are neurological factors that can interfere with muscle memory. "Nerves" have a physical as well as psychological factor. If a skater is breaking a skill down into "parts" - e.g., "increase speed, raise leg, but not too high, count 1, 2, pick, close legs----etc.", there are too many messages going to the muscle, add adrenalin, and you have a higher chance of a splat than a success. Lots of times I hear coaches say "Just go for it - you might make it!" Other coaches have a formula of say "can't put it in the program until you are 9 out 10". The reasoning is that failing in competition teaches you to "fail in competition. Your mind expects it, your body expects it. That's why I think that wonderful as Angela is, she has too much history of blowing it to have a good chance of holding it together. It could happen, but its unlikely, IMHO.

NorthernLite

12-06-2002, 05:26 PM

I don't think anyone else has mentioned a couple specific spins. But I need help with terminology - is the Y spin and the martini glass the same thing? Whatever it's called, I'm referring to the one wit the free leg held up at the side, like Sarah and MK do. I like those, especially Sarah's (probably because she adds a little extra something with that smile on her face).
In contrast, put me on the list of people who think Rudy Galindo is just about the only person who should do the one where the free leg is held more in front. (What's that called?) Most skaters, including SashaBaby, look horribly awkward with that spin.

So if we're discussing that general style of spin, it's 1) Sarah 2) Michelle and Sasha, no points. ;)

loveskating

12-08-2002, 12:05 AM

I'll put it this way:

Sarah Hughes has in her arsenal two very difficult 3/3s and landed a 3 lutz/2 loop late in the season last year but of low quality.
Michelle Kwan has the easiest 3/3. Kwan also has a 3 lutz/2 loop but it is 1/2 underotated, and the loop is so tiny...low quality.
Sasha has no 3/3 so far but she has what neither of them have, i.e. a 3 flip/2 toe loop of high quality, which gives her the option to do another flip as well as the second lutz.

As to spins, Sasha and Sarah have it ALL OVER Michelle Kwan but Sasha is by far the best spinner of the three...and her spins are well centered, but in any case, speed trumps centering according to the rules.

As to jumps, Sasha has the technical perfection all down the line, very much so since the loop is now really good too, but Kwan and Sarah have the consistency so far. Neither of them even have the height and ice coverage on Sasha, except perhaps for Sarah's 2 axel (and Sasha's proper backspin air position, fast rotations and arc are absolutely up there with Irina and Volchkova) and her runouts are just fine, no more problems than anyone else has, but Sasha has had a microscope on her.

Sasha is pure magic on the ice, even when she takes a fall, like at Skate Canada. She is amazing in every detail, every move she makes, and IMHO has this year clearly surpassed Kwan in the presentation department, quite obviously.

* * *

Sasha has the best front catch spin, side catch spin, layback and spiral sequence ever to grace this sport, and the best Russian Split as well. Her carriage and posture are the best. Her Ina Bauer is among the best. Her footwork is now the best (although Irina's last year could have beaten it due to difficulty).

Kwan has two spectacular elements that can be counted as "the best:, or among the best, i.e., the Split Falling Leaf and her change edge spiral. Sarah has no element which can honestly be called the best, but her layback is among the best.

jss

12-08-2002, 12:35 AM

Sasha has no 3/3 so far but she has what neither of them have, i.e. a 3 flip/2 toe loop of high quality, which gives her the option to do another flip as well as the second lutz.

Michelle did do a 3 flip/ 2 toe in her programs this year!

As to spins, Sasha and Sarah have it ALL OVER Michelle Kwan but Sasha is by far the best spinner of the three...and her spins are well centered, but in any case, speed trumps centering according to the rules

By far? I don't think so. Sasha does hit some better postitions and has nice speed. And speed may trump centering, but Sarah has speed and centering so it is close between the two.

her runouts are just fine, no more problems than anyone else has, but Sasha has had a microscope on her

Her runouts do on occassion have jerky landings. And her "microscope" isn't anything that Michelle, Sarah and Irinia haven't over gone when they reached the upper level of skating.

IMHO has this year clearly surpassed Kwan in the presentation department, quite obviously

Well it isn't so obvious to some of the judges on the grand prix thus far. Yes her presentation is WONDERFUL but let's wait until she enters the big competitions and competes against Michelle and Sarah to see what happens.

Sasha has the best front catch spin, side catch spin, layback and spiral sequence ever to grace this sport, and the best Russian Split as well. Her carriage and posture are the best. Her Ina Bauer is among the best. Her footwork is now the best (although Irina's last year could have beaten it due to difficulty).

Sasha's flexibilty is amazing, but sometimes it does seem to take on the effect of look at what I can do. Also I think Sasha has the best split in the spirals, but I think Michelle has better speed, ice coverage and edging. I also don't think it is fair to say Sasha's footwork is the best until she has competed against others. I for one am not a fan of the stopping and starting, but think it is GREAT that she is most definately improving in this area. Also it is important to mention that at times on some of her elements, Sasha doesn't have the best ice coverage.

bcskater

12-08-2002, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by loveskating

Michelle Kwan has the easiest 3/3. Kwan also has a 3 lutz/2 loop but it is 1/2 underotated, and the loop is so tiny...low quality.
Sasha has no 3/3 so far but she has what neither of them have, i.e. a 3 flip/2 toe loop of high quality, which gives her the option to do another flip as well as the second lutz.

k one--are you trying to say that the 2loop after michelles 3lutz is HALF TURN CHEATED?! LOL, im pretty positive its not cheated at all. OR are you trying to say that her 3lutz is HALF TURN CHEATED?! LOL, cuz thats also not true.
two--i might be wrong but didnt sasha land a 3toe/half looop/3sow at campbells earlier on this season? thats a great 3/3 combo!

adrianchew

12-08-2002, 12:57 AM

I don't think I can ever recall a cheated 3-lutz/2-loop from Kwan. Granted the 2-loop does not get the height of Irina or Sarah's. I've always felt a 3-lutz/2-toe is a better combo for Kwan though - since she gets so little height on the 3-loop.

Schmeck

12-08-2002, 08:30 AM

Is a triple-half loop-triple really being counted as a triple/triple combination? I thought it was a sequence, not a combination.

I'm not a fan of the stop/start/show off that pearly smile to the judges style of footwork either. Give me forward and backwards, inside and outside, skating on one foot footwork, please!

Schmeck

loveskating

12-08-2002, 01:14 PM

I'm sorry...the takeoff on Kwan's loop in the 3 lutz/2 loop is turned almost one half on the loop on the ice, not underrotated, but UNDER rotated. Sorry. Its also underrotated slightly.

jss

12-08-2002, 01:30 PM

Could you tell us when Michelle under rotated the loop because I pulled out my nationals tape and watched it and she does two full turns in the air and lands facing the same direction she did when she took off. I'm not a technical expert at all, but to me that isn't under rotated.

TAF2984

12-08-2002, 02:05 PM

Layback Sasha/Sarah(beauiful positions, great speed)
Spirals Michelle( most difficult, best edges, most connecting moves with it, great extenstion, good amplitude, brillant speed and ice coverage)
Posture/carriage Michelle ( superb here)
spins sasha (very fast excellent positions)
double axel Sarah (good height flow and held out landing)
attention to detail Michelle (she's the most polished)
fun jumps Michelle(height, speed)
triple Jumps Michelle (best landing edges and landing positions , superb speed going in and coming out and great technique)
Footwork Michelle(hardest, fastest, deepest edges, fluid, most variety)
Edging Michelle (simply superb in this area)
Expression Michelle
Moves in the Field Michelle (her IP are brillant show cases usually her longs too)

hydro

12-08-2002, 03:37 PM

I'm sorry...the takeoff on Kwan's loop in the 3 lutz/2 loop is turned almost one half on the loop on the ice, not underrotated, but UNDER rotated. Sorry. Its also underrotated slightly.

no. i just checked my tapes, and some files i have online, and i have never seen an underrotated 3lutz/2loop combination from Michelle, ever. the 2loop is always a bit pre-rotated in anyone's loop combination jumps, and even in regular 3loops as compared to other triples. that is the case with ALL loops that EVERY skater does. the way the 3loop is setup will always give the perception of it being pre-rotated. Michelle has always landed the combination with two full turns in the air, and then coming down for the landing. i just don't understand how you could say that jump is underrotated, i've never heard that from anyone before simply because its not true.

Michelle has had great success with the 3lutz/2loop, and i'm glad she showed the tecnical variety that other skaters lack. Sarah Hughes does not do well on toe jumps, and Irina only includes loop combinations in her programs. Michelle was the only skater last season to show variety in combinations, and that should be rewarded.

Canskater

12-09-2002, 09:36 AM

I watched the Ladies event at the Sears Open yesterday and was very impressed with Ms. Cohen.

To the point at hand .... Michelle Kwan is an outstanding technician. In the absense of someone with an overwhelming "it" factor (talent, presentation, energy, excitement", Michelle wins overwhelmingly. In the presence of someone like Ms. Cohen (unless she makes a tragic error), Michelle Kwan pales by comparison. An outstanding technician she is, but she is (in my opinion), sorely lacking "it".

-- sheilagh (and I know I'll get flamed for this .........)

missmarysgarden

12-09-2002, 10:16 AM

Well, Canskater, I think its pretty extreme to say that ANYONE pales by comparison to Sasha, and certainly not Michelle ... even though I am impressed with Sasha's move towards maturity in her presentation to go along with her theatricality. Keep in mind that Michelle has a long history of 6.0s for presentation, and as for excitement, IMO Sasha has a long way to go before she could win the "excitement chip" when compared to several of Michelle's historical performs - e.g., Salome, Rach, and others. I'm hoping to see more great and exciting ladies in the skating ranks, and I am sure that Sasha is an "heir apparent", but its a little premature to put a crown on her head. And on any given day, Michelle can beat her. I have seen some less than exciting performances from Sasha, as I have from Michelle. Should be a great competitive year for the American Ladies.

Canskater

12-09-2002, 11:10 AM

Again, skating aesthetics are a matter of opinion and taste ....
In my opinion, "it" skaters come around only once in a very long while ... Janet Lynn, Oksana Baiul, and now Sasha Cohen.

I don't mean to take anything away from Ms. Kwan ... great technical skater, way better than most others. But for me, she lacks the "it" quality ...

-- sheilagh

missmarysgarden

12-09-2002, 11:30 AM

I think you are right that there are individual preferences with regard to the "performance" aspects of skating. I would certainly agree with you about Janet Lynn - she had "IT". Baiul never did anything for me. Probably because I have a background in classical dance, and recognized the serious flaws in her so-called "classical technique" (e.g., extreme angularity of legs and arms when they should have been properly aligned). And as far as her "drama" - I was very put off by her extreme emoting, which had no emotional effect on me at all - it always seemed insincere and for effect. The quality that effects me most about Michelle's skating and her "performance" - is the honesty and integrity of her programs. I think that there are a lot of skaters who are trying very hard to "feel" the music and express the emotion of it - but just don't make it. I always feel that Michelle chooses music that releases something really genuine inside of her, and that she has a broad spectrum of emotion because she is focused outward rather than on herself. When people are reduced to tears at her performances, it is because they are "affected" by what she does - probably more than any other skater to this day. I think Sasha is exciting, but I think she is too young perhaps to have a reservoir of deep emotional experience to draw on internally. She still seems to me like someone who is imitating a mood rather than creating one - IMHO. But she is still young.

loveskating

12-09-2002, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by jss
Could you tell us when Michelle under rotated the loop because I pulled out my nationals tape and watched it and she does two full turns in the air and lands facing the same direction she did when she took off. I'm not a technical expert at all, but to me that isn't under rotated.

Look at her Olympics skate...its almost 1/2 on the ice, and probably 1/4 on the landing.

In general, I do want to say that everyone, Tara, Irina, Sarah, rotate some on the ice and underrotate the loop in any loop combination...which only means that that is the standard, so then issues of how much become relevant. The loop combos are very, very hard. IMHO Irina is the best on this...has the least either way.

I forget how this got started, but all I'm saying is that this 3 lutz/2 loop is not a great tech feat for Michelle...

Otherwise, I don't know how to resolve these issues...people can look for themselves and see what they think.

loveskating

12-09-2002, 11:56 AM

I agree there is the "it" factor, but that is going to be different for different people, for many reasons, political, economic, cultural, etc.

However, Oksana's huge delayed 2 axel was not subjective, rather it was measurable.

Her lutz, which she did sometimes two foot, was HUGE and she took off from the left outside edge, had a true lutz. Likewise, her salchow was huge and quantifiable, as were most of her jumps, as well as the speed into them . Her proper backspin position in the air was not quite as good as Irina's and Sasha's or Tara's IMHO.

HEr doughnut spin was extraordinarily fast and showed great flexibility...I've seen slightly better positions, but never with that speed.

Her catch spiral was incredible as to entry and exit from it, the lean on the edge of it, and a beautiful position, in fact, I've never seen a catch spiral so lovely and on such a secure edge at such high speed and no one, but no one gets into that spiral at the speed and with the beauty of position she achieved. It requires flexibility so those that lack flexibility don't even do it so their fans like to call that "a trick" but its a bona fide spiral, part of skating, not a "trick". The lean on it was so severe that when she grew, she could not any longer leam like that without falling, so she stopped doing it.

She stood out not only because of her personality and expression on the ice, but because of the very high quality she achieved on numerous elements, being both a tech skater and having fabulous presentation.

missmarysgarden

12-09-2002, 12:48 PM

Vive la difference!! Its good that we can agree to disagree. I remember Oksana's donut spin, and her catch foot spiral. I thought they were aesthetically unattractive, and counted them off as a "trick" to emphasize her flexibility at the expense of elegance. Some people find that thrilling - some just shrug their shoulders. She had wonderful jumps. I loved them! But her leg positions were often wrapped and sort of klunky looking - to some people. There's something for everyone in skating!

hydro

12-09-2002, 10:31 PM

Look at her Olympics skate...its almost 1/2 on the ice, and probably 1/4 on the landing.

i just did. i have the video file on my computer, and viewed it in slow-mo on my 21-inch monitor. and it was clean as they come. 1/4 cheated on the landing??? maybe you should re-check your tape, unless you have a different Olympic LP that i haven't seen, she landed the jump clean.

TAF2984

12-09-2002, 10:55 PM

missmarysgarden, brillant posts. I agree completely. Also IT is not in the category of presentation. It influences some parts but Sasha still has a ways to go to be on Kwan's level of presentation. I think people are forgetting here the unbelievable skates MK has had and how great she is, maybe they need a tape or something then they'll learn to appreciate it instead of just going off the moment. For example look at MK's 98, 01, 02 nationals, world wins, Fields of Gold at 2002 Olympic exhibition have any of them honestly pulled off skates like that not only presentation wise and technically but emotionally?

jss

12-09-2002, 10:56 PM

Also when you say she is 1/2 turn on the take off that would mean that her blade is facing backwards when she takes off. That isn't the case either.

annm72

12-09-2002, 11:49 PM

What a great topic! Delurking temporarily to give my 2 cents. Kind of long though.

Layback
1. Sasha (this year's SP layback spin is my favorite from all the ladies!)
2. Sarah (lovely classic position; good speed, excellent centering)
3. Michelle (even though I personally love this layback, I know it is not as difficult as the other two ladies)
I can't mention laybacks without mentioning Angela's superb classic layback and Ann-Patrice's beautiful layback (i love the shape of the bend in her back on this one)

Spirals
1. Michelle(superb ice coverage, speed, and edging; great extension and good amplitude, best overall spiral!!)
2. Sasha(the best amplitude and great extension)

Posture/carriage
1. Michelle (from skate to fingertips, she is the best! i love the way she uses her arms and hands)
2. Sasha (a close second; the best back in eligible skating!)

Spins
1. Sasha (Pros: beautiful and difficult positions, excellent speed, inventive Cons: she is off and on again with her centering; when she is on, she has the best spins)
2. Sarah (Pros: good speed, really good centering, lovely positions, love her camel spin Cons: inventiveness)
3. Michelle (Pros: great centering(like a rock), beautiful positions and transitions Cons: difficulty, speed fluctuates from average to really good)

Double axel
Sarah (really nice height, love the great flow in the held out landing, her best jump!)

Attention to detail
1. Michelle
2. Sasha (a close second)
These two ladies are superb at this. I'm gnashing my teeth because I won't get to see them live at Nationals.

Fun jumps
Michelle/Sasha - a tie!!!(Michelle's split falling leaf and Sasha's russian split are both exquisite and the best in the business)

Triple Jumps
1. Michelle (Pros: great technique, the smoothest landings out of all the eligible ladies, speed going in and out of her jumps, good ice coverage Cons: jumps only of average height, no consistent or difficult 3-3 )
Tie for Sarah and Sasha. I didn't know who to put first. Their strengths and weaknesses are so different.
Sarah (Pros: consistent and difficult 3-3, consistency in general Cons: flutz, bad technique on toe jumps)
Sasha (Pros: good height and ice coverage, good technique, lovely air position Cons: consistency, 3-3, flutz)

Footwork
1. Michelle(most difficult, smooth and fluid, great ice coverage and speed, a variety of edges, interesting, so good she makes it look easy; this year's SP footwork is my favorite out of all the ladies )
2. Sasha (last year I wouldn't have put her here but she has made great strides and obviously put in a lot of time and effort; very interesting and she wins the most "flashy" footwork award :) )

Moves in the Field
1. Sasha (I love her Ina Bauer!!)

Edging
Michelle (there is no one on the eligible side that compares!!!)

Expression
1. Michelle (it's like Herbal Essences; a totally organic experience !!! Her ease of movement is exceptional )
2. Sasha (lovely; knows how to take advantage of the high notes in her music)

Anita

rack

12-10-2002, 07:36 AM

Here's one I don't think has been discussed yet.

People love Michelle.
People adore Sasha.
People like Sarah.

Likablity isn't as commonplace as you might think. I've only come up with a handful of skaters who immediately invoke that response with me- Robin Cousins,
Dorothy Hamill, Matt Savoie, maybe Todd Eldredge. It's a different style of skating- it invites the audience to share the experience, not merely to admire it.
At its best, it can make your heart melt (listen to the commentator's response to Sarah's squeal of joy after her triple toe at the Olympics).

Judges might not judge it, and fans might not think about it, but likability is a terrific asset. You might turn on someone you love or adore, but you'll rarely change your feelings about someone you like (which is one reason why some sit-coms run forever, even though no one but a laugh machine has giggled at any of its jokes for years).

JDC1

12-10-2002, 08:45 AM

The "it" factor is so subjective. Oksana NEVER moved me nor did Tara nor does Sarah. However, Naomi Nari Nam I thought had "it" oozing out of her ears, I think Michelle has so much "it" she could lend some out, she commands the ice like no one else, I think Sasha has "it" but she still can come across as too fake or forced to me but she's 17 and hopefully she'll evolve to look more relaxed and natural. I never thought Alexei had it, or Plushy, but I thought Elvis and Kurt had it to spare. Anyway, I'm getting off topic, but I do think it's totally possible for someone to think Michelle doesn't have "it" but I couldn't, nor could most judges, agree with you less. :-)

TAF2984

12-10-2002, 09:37 AM

"The "it" factor is so subjective. Oksana NEVER moved me nor did Tara nor does Sarah. However, Naomi Nari Nam I thought had "it" oozing out of her ears, I think Michelle has so much "it" she could lend some out, she commands the ice like no one else, I think Sasha has "it" but she still can come across as too fake or forced to me but she's 17 and hopefully she'll evolve to look more relaxed and natural"

I agree, Sasha's 18 btw and lets not get started how MK was when she was around that age and younger because IMHO that's not an excuse.

adrianchew

12-10-2002, 09:55 AM

There's a clear cut distinction between excellent presentation, and "IT" IMO. The "IT" factor should be an obvious, innate talent or difference... "IT" is visible from the onset, and not something perfected over years.

All the skaters that have "IT" to me have the ability to grab you the first time you watch them. Whether you like them or not, you take immediate notice. Sasha and Oksana Baiul to me are great examples of "IT". Most people saw Sasha's "IT" at 2000 US Nationals, but some as early as 1998 when she was a Novice, and me at 2000/2001 Nations Cup and Cup of Russia.

I've never seen 1999 US Nationals so I can't fully relate to Naomi Nari Nam - the only performance of NNN I've seen is 2000 US Nats - good, but not enough for "IT".

Sale/Pelletier and Gordeeva/Grinkov both have "IT". To some extent I would agree that Nicole Bobek has "IT". Kristi Yamaguchi and Yuka Sato today have excellent presentation skills and beautiful skating - it doesn't translate to "IT" though.

And a clear sign of "IT" - when the commentators start gushing about a young skater that's new to the scene and get a little ahead of the actual quality of the skating like they did with Sasha back in 2000 - you know you've stumbled upon "IT". ;)