A whole bunch of questions looking for answers

[rack]

These questions have been rattling around in my brain for a while. Answers to one or all would be greatly appreciated.

1. Is a quad toe/double toe combination regarded as harder than a triple toe/triple toe combo? If so, why?

2. Why is the mandatory deduction for doing a double rather than a triple in a short program the same as for falling on the jump? Are rotations regarded as important as landings?

3. Does fast powerful music make a skater seem faster? Does slow music make a skater seem slower? I know skaters are judged on change of speed in their skating (although I rarely remember a commentator discussing that), but my impression is that commentators will accuse skaters of being slow more often when the music is slow.

4. I've seen some pretty unattractive sit spins in my day and I love it when skaters do weirdly positioned spins. Could a skater with a weak sit spin position camouflage it with donuts or corkscrews or whatever else those spins are called?

5. When the ladies do their spiral sequences in short programs, they almost always do them papa bear, mama bear, baby bear style- long flashy one first, then medium grade, then short and get it over with. That makes the second and third spirals anti-climactic. Is there a reason why skaters don't reverse the order and build to the blazingsmile spiral?

6. Why don't skaters with bad skin wear makeup to cover the acne better? And why don't skaters with in-between length hair do something more with it than a pony tail, or worse yet, a pony tail pinned up in the back so the ends stick upright?

7. For extra credit- Has any skater done a quad/quad combo? If not, in what year do you think we'll first see one?

I eagerly await responses (this is how I learn).:D

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by rack

1. Is a quad toe/double toe combination regarded as harder than a triple toe/triple toe combo? If so, why?

Yes - but I would say a triple axel/triple toe should carry more weight than a quad/double. Can't explain why though.

2. Why is the mandatory deduction for doing a double rather than a triple in a short program the same as for falling on the jump? Are rotations regarded as important as landings?

If the required element is a triple, and a skater does a double it is as bad as falling on that jump - 0.4 mandatory deduction.

3. Does fast powerful music make a skater seem faster? Does slow music make a skater seem slower? I know skaters are judged on change of speed in their skating (although I rarely remember a commentator discussing that), but my impression is that commentators will accuse skaters of being slow more often when the music is slow.

What you're asking refers to seeing variations of speed during a program, and easy of movement. This should relate to the tempo of the music (so choosing a monotone piece is not generally a good idea). Another aspect of this is ice coverage - the more ice used up in a program, the better.

I'm actually going to provide two examples of long programs this season.

Fumie Suguri's Swan Lake LP - she has good relation to the tempo of the music, there are variations in speed (it picks up towards the end when she does her footwork/etc). It certainly helps her presentation mark - despite her problems with jumps, she's had really good presentation marks in the GP events. Ice coverage in her program is not the best though - there are various slow portions that she spends on in between chereographical elements in certain spots of the ice.

Sasha Cohen's Rachmaninoff LP - once again, good relation to the tempo of the music, and variations in speed. The big difference is the ice coverage, even doing in-betweens... she fills up the ice much better. The program moves across the ice... it doesn't stay in a spot except where you normally are in one spot (spins).

4. I've seen some pretty unattractive sit spins in my day and I love it when skaters do weirdly positioned spins. Could a skater with a weak sit spin position camouflage it with donuts or corkscrews or whatever else those spins are called?

A donut is a variation of a camel spin... skater usually enters into a camel, catches the blade and turns it into a donut.

Some variations of sit spins include the cannonball position (free leg sticks straight out, head is low), and the pancake (free leg is bent and head is sort of pressed on the free leg). You first need a good sit spin before you can even start on attempting the harder variations of positions... so no, there is no way to truly hide a bad sit spin.

5. When the ladies do their spiral sequences in short programs, they almost always do them papa bear, mama bear, baby bear style- long flashy one first, then medium grade, then short and get it over with. That makes the second and third spirals anti-climactic. Is there a reason why skaters don't reverse the order and build to the blazingsmile spiral?

Speed going into the spiral sequence is a factor... you're not supposed to do too many crossovers in between spiral positions. Each position in a spiral also is on an edge of the blade (a skater will turn on a direction depending on the edge). Patterns are either circular or serpentine. Most senior level international ladies I believe do serpentine sequences... you form an S shape sort of across the ice. One edge would be the ( portion at the beginning, and another option would be the ) option for the second half. Most use the ( for the papa, and ) for mama/baby. Important to change edges (inside/outside), and direction of travel (backward/forward) during the sequence.

The blazingsmile you're referring to is typically a forward inside outside spiral done in the freeskate - it doesn't work in the short program since its only has 2 changes, not 3 as required.

6. Why don't skaters with bad skin wear makeup to cover the acne better? And why don't skaters with in-between length hair do something more with it than a pony tail, or worse yet, a pony tail pinned up in the back so the ends stick upright?

Probably because there are no rules as far as makeup go, and I don't think there is for hair either. The only restrictions is on the costume worn.

7. For extra credit- Has any skater done a quad/quad combo? If not, in what year do you think we'll first see one?

Not as far as I know - hmm, maybe Plushenko will get more ambitious this year?

[icenut84]

1. Is a quad toe/double toe combination regarded as harder than a triple toe/triple toe combo? If so, why?

I'm not sure on this one but I think a quad-double is regarded as harder than a triple-triple, yes. Probably just because it is a quad.

2. Why is the mandatory deduction for doing a double rather than a triple in a short program the same as for falling on the jump? Are rotations regarded as important as landings?

I did have a link to all the deductions in a short program but I had to reinstall the internet so I lost it. I'll try and find it again and post it for you. I'm not sure why it's the same deduction for falling as for doubling. Maybe someone else can clarify that a bit better?

3. Does fast powerful music make a skater seem faster? Does slow music make a skater seem slower? I know skaters are judged on change of speed in their skating (although I rarely remember a commentator discussing that), but my impression is that commentators will accuse skaters of being slow more often when the music is slow.

I think it does, yes. To an extent. Skaters may change their speed to suit the music, but I would say that, generally, fast music would make a skater seem faster than the same skating done to slow music. Not sure why. But speed is hard to judge on TV, so when watching on TV, someone skating to slow music would be assumed to be slower than skating to fast music. Maybe also because the fast music would have a faster beat, therefore the skater tries to skate on the beat, therefore they move their feet/legs faster, not necessarily gaining more speed but giving the impression of it.

4. I've seen some pretty unattractive sit spins in my day and I love it when skaters do weirdly positioned spins. Could a skater with a weak sit spin position camouflage it with donuts or corkscrews or whatever else those spins are called?

I'm not sure what you mean by this - how could a skater camouflage a bad sit spin with a donut spin? A donut is a completely different position - the spinning leg is straight, like a camel spin. Do you mean taking the attention off the sit spin by doing unusual spins that would get the attention?

5. When the ladies do their spiral sequences in short programs, they almost always do them papa bear, mama bear, baby bear style- long flashy one first, then medium grade, then short and get it over with. That makes the second and third spirals anti-climactic. Is there a reason why skaters don't reverse the order and build to the blazingsmile spiral?

Probably because of speed. You can lose speed quite easily in a spiral, as you aren't taking any extra pushes. They could retain the speed (or at least a lot of it) by doing crossovers in between (like Michelle), but if they go straight into the next one (like Irina), it is considered more difficult, therefore higher marks, since they have to try to retain the speed or sometimes even accelerate throughout the spirals without crossovers in between. It also makes a smoother transition. But even so, the first spiral will most likely be the best because the skater can get maximum speed going into it.

6. Why don't skaters with bad skin wear makeup to cover the acne better? And why don't skaters with in-between length hair do something more with it than a pony tail, or worse yet, a pony tail pinned up in the back so the ends stick upright?

Well, with regards to the makeup thing, a lot of people don't like wearing a lot of makeup, so they wouldn't want to wear a lot for skating, whatever their skin's like. Also trowelling on the makeup isn't going to make their skin better! As for hair, are you talking about little kids or elite level skaters? They can't do anything too extravagant with it because it's got to stay in place, and to be out of the way.

7. For extra credit- Has any skater done a quad/quad combo? If not, in what year do you think we'll first see one?

I don't think so. Nobody's ever done it as far as I know. (Certainly not in competition anyway.) As for when we'll see the first one... who knows. Think how much the jumping has evolved - in Nagano, Ilia Kulik landed a solo quad toe. In SLC, Alexei Yagudin landed a 4-3-2 and Evgeny Plushenko nearly got a 4-3-3. Also, I read last year that Plush might be working on the 4-4 for the Olympics - maybe he'll go for it some time in the future! I just hope he stays injury free. But if anyone's going to land it, my money's on Plush. :)

[backspin]

I'll just add that a deduction is taken only in the short program when doubling an attempted triple. The deduction is the same for a double or a fall because in either case it is a failure to complete the required jump. However, my guess would be that for the fall, the presentation mark may also be affected, depending on how disrupting it is to the flow of the program.

There is no deduction in the long program for doubling an attempted triple; just not credit for the triple.

[rack]

Thanks for all the answers.

I have a better understanding now about the spirals (although I still think a reverse order could be done). And I feel properly shamefaced that I don't know a donut from an apple strudel spin (I call all of them Lucinda Rue spins anyway).

But I'm still hazy as to why 6 rotations in a quad/double should be regarded as harder than 6 rotations in a triple/triple (assuming it is). And I always understood that a double and a fall in the short program were equally bad, but I still don't understand why.

I appreciate the efforts to explain these things to me. There's no requirement, by the way, to answer all seven questions (although I certainly respect the desire for extra credit). :D

[twinkle]

I think a quad-double is harder because the skater has to be able to land the quad which is a harder jump before they can attempt it in combination, while a skater who can land triples can put two in combination but can't necessarily land the quad at all. Sorry not sure if that makes sense, I'll try an example;

I can land all the single jumps but not doubles.
This means that I can do any combination of singles, but a double on its own would be a lot harder (for me impossible to land), even though both are two revolutions in total.

Hope that helps, I'm totally confused now...

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by rack
Thanks for all the answers.

I have a better understanding now about the spirals (although I still think a reverse order could be done).

It could, but it most likely be achieved either by downgrading the first spiral to a fetus bear, to use your analogy, or more likely by putting in more crossovers in the middle of the of the sequence, which would disrupt the aesthetics at least as much as the anticlimactic setup you decry.

Skaters could choose to work on developing maximum acceleration from minimal pushes more than on flexibility and showcase those skills instead/as well.

Especially at the intermediate levels, you often see skaters putting in little jumps like falling leaves or the hardest turns they're able to do with flow in between the spirals, so none of the spirals end up covering as much ice as those of skaters who are able to hold them for a long time at speed on deep edges. That's another way to add difficulty and aesthetic interest. I think there needs to be a balance between the actual spiral positions and edges and the transitions between them, but what each skater does best among those areas will vary.

Or at least they could choose to save the spiral position in which they are able to demonstrating the most flexibility for last, but fatigue would still be a factor and you might not ever see the best overall spiral that they're capable of if they don't put the best one first.

All that being said, it is true that many skaters rush through their final spiral positions and *could* hold them longer and make them more effective (albeit less so than the opening positions) if they chose to.

But I'm still hazy as to why 6 rotations in a quad/double should be regarded as harder than 6 rotations in a triple/triple (assuming it is).

Because it's much harder to be able to do a quad at all than to be able to do a triple. Especially if we're talking about toe loops . . . the difference in difficulty between quad and triple as the first jump of a combination is greater than the difference between triple and double as the second jump, given the fact that the skater is capable of doing a triple toe in the first place. (A skater who can just barely eke out a quad will have trouble putting a double on the end, much less a triple, but the same skater may have a great triple toe in isolation with strong landings, which makes it that much easier to do it in combination.)

The total number of revolutions is not the issue. I could do five single toe loops in a row -- it's very easy to put a single toe on the end of any other combination, any preliminary-level skater should be able to do that. It only demonstrates that I've mastered two skills: the ability to do a single toe loop from my favorite speed-generating approach, and the ability to do it from the landing of another jump (in this case, I demonstrate the second skill four times in a row, each time with diminishing quality).

Does that mean it should be no more difficult for me to do five revolutions of toe loop takeoffs by doing double toe-double toe-single toe or trile toe-double toe? Of course not. I haven't mastered the double toe (have barely started working on it) -- I haven't mastered the skill or rotating two times in the air. In order to do a 2-2-1 combination, I would need to add two more skills to the ones I need for the 1-1-1-1-1 combination: I'd need to be able to do a double toe at all, and I'd need to be able to do it from the landing of a previous jump. I'd also still need the single-from-landing skill, but I've already got that.

For the 3-2 combination, I would need to be able to rotate 3 times in the air from a toe loop takeoff (ha ha, ain't never gonna happen -- and for even the majority of senior-level skaters, especially women, rotating four times ain't gonna happen either), to be able to rotate two times from a toe loop takeoff, and to be able to do those two rotations from the landing of a previous jump. I don't have *any* of those skills, or close to it, so of course a 3-2 combination is way beyond what I could even dream of attempting. The fact that I can easily do a combination of five revolutions by repeating an easy skill doesn't mean I can demonstrate the intermediate-level skill at all. Just as those who can do the intermediate skills (double jumps, and 2-2 combinations) can't necessarily do the advanced skills (triples), and those who can do the advanced skill (triples) can't necessarily do the really really advanced skill (quads).

And I always understood that a double and a fall in the short program were equally bad, but I still don't understand why.

We can only guess at the reasoning. Probably because they assume that any senior-level skater should already have demonstrated complete mastery of double jumps in isolation just to get to that level of competition and the challenge is to demonstrate the ability to do triples on demand.

Another way of thinking of it is that if you place jump difficulty on a continuum of
double salchow/toe loop
double loop/flip
double lutz
double axel
triple sal/toe
triple loop/flip
triple lutz
triple axel
and add roughly 0.1 for each step further along the continuum, doing a double instead of a triple works out to about 0.4 less in difficulty anyway.

[duane]

my 2 cents. :)

i definitely think a 4toe/2toe is regarded as more difficult than a 3toe/3toe. both are 6 rotations, but landing a quad is much more difficult than landing a 3toe, considered the easiest of triple jumps (and, the 3toe/3toe is considered the easiest 3/3). imagine the difference in base mark if one skater's combo was a 4toe/2toe and the other skater's combo was a 3toe/3toe.

regarding, say, a 3axel/3toe compared with a 4toe/2toe, i think it gets more difficult to say. the 3/3 is 6.5 rotations, compared with 6 rotations for the 4/2. still, i imagine that when it comes to the men, the 4toe/2toe would be considered more difficult because nowadays, the 3axel/3toe is landed more generally. but when it comes to the women, hmmm....all things being equal, i wonder how the judges would react if one skater landed the 3axel/3toe and another landed the 4toe/2toe!

regarding the same mandatory deduction in the SP for a doubled triple and a fall on the jump: i would think that in the long run, the doubled jump would fair better than a fall because the fall (IMO) should also affect the presentation mark, while the doubled jump should not.

[somechick]

Regarding the quad/quad..Goebel said he landed one once in practice but it was purely accidental that he landed it. Now, wheter he meant it was an accident he DID the second quad or an accident he actually stood up it, I don't know. I don't know of anyone else trying or succeeding at one.

[rack]

Yippee. I now totally understand the quad toe/double toe situation (although I still think adding a triple toe following any jump is pretty impressive). And I'm understanding the spiral issue a lot better.

Thanks again- you all get extra credit in my book.:D

[icenut84]

Originally posted by rack
And I feel properly shamefaced that I don't know a donut from an apple strudel spin (I call all of them Lucinda Rue spins anyway).

Have you ever seen an Oksana Baiul programme? She had a beautiful donut spin. And if you watch Evgeny Plushenko's SP from the Olympics, he did a flying camel and turned it into a donut spin. It's basically when the skater is in a camel spin position, then arches their back round and bends their leg and takes hold of their free foot, so their body/free leg is in a circle, like a donut. The "O" shape is horizontal to the ice, so they look like a donut on a stick. :) Hope that makes sense! If you watch Plush's programme you might see what I mean a bit better.