New Michelle Kwan article

[jcspkbfan]

Here's a new Michelle Kwan article from the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/331/sports/Her_turn_at_Turin_+.shtml

[Kruss]

Excellent article - thank you!

Michelle sounds like she's in a good place right now - I like her attitude. :)

[spiralsrfun]

Great article...it sounds like she's really in a "good place" right now and has sound perspective. I wish her luck at Nationals. :D

[nits]

Thanks for the article on Michelle. This girl never ceases to amaze me. She continues to be a great role model. I'm looking forward to Nationals...GO MICHELLE!! :D

[yogurtslinger]

I respect people who respect Madonna ;) ... it's not off the wall at all. It's hard for anyone to stay in the spotlight for that long. But, Michelle's not nearly the chameleon Madonna is. Not that she should "reinvent herself" every season.. but I just don't see that she has the flexibility in her skating and in her style to keep it fresh and interesting. But it was a sweet article.. I feel kind of sad for her.

[HeatherC]

She does sound like she is in a great place. :D I can't wait til Nationals. Talk about a knock down, drag out fight! What a competition that will be. I can't wait to see it all unfold in January. :D And I also look foward to seeing Michelle skate for many years to come. You go girl!! :D

[ARTIQUE]

I love reading articles like this that give a balanced outlook on an athlete's competitive spirit. It's great to to get a little peek into Michelle's mindset for this season. After so many titles and magical skating performances, Michelle has a fabulous opportunity to experiment musically & technically. I hope Michelle enjoys her continuos skating journey. If any skater can go the distance, it's Michelle.

[Tapper]

But, Michelle's not nearly the chameleon Madonna is. Not that she should "reinvent herself" every season.. but I just don't see that she has the flexibility in her skating and in her style to keep it fresh and interesting. But it was a sweet article.. I feel kind of sad for her.


What's to feel sad about? She's a champion, with a great attitude and a healthy perspective on her life and career.
The article states clearly that there will be no surprises - she's not about re-inventing herself, and she doesn't need to. She's a great creation as she is, with a style that is uniquely her own. If she were to "re-invent herself," what would we have? Faux Kwan?
I'm bored by the competitions so far in the grand prix - except for Sasha (but she alone is not enough for me) - and long for Nationals so I can see Michelle skate again.

[kwanette]

I admire and respect Michelle for the skater and person she has always been, is, and hopefully, will be. What other female skater is flexible...they never quite stick around long enough to even get to know them. I wish Michelle only the best...she seems happy...and free...and that is a good thing, I think.

[HappySushiSk8]

I not sure if Michelle is making good decision to stay amateur. There are so many pretty young Japanese skaters with great jumps and triple axel! How can she beat the triple axel jump? I think she is very pretty, but I think she would make a pretty professional.

[nits]

Then I guess all the skaters need to go pro then.
This includes Michelle, Sasha, Sarah, Irina, Angela, all but those few skaters landing the 3axel.
If the 3axel is all that counts...these ladies better hang up their skates!!

[haribobo]

The only skaters who are currently landing the 3axel with any kind of consistency are Nelidina and Nakano, and both have a LOOOOOOOONG ways to go to be anywhere near the top 6 American ladies in presentation. And even they usually cheat the jump. The judges clearly have shown this season that there's a lot more they care about than the 3ax. If Onda can get her 3ax going, well her presentation and positions still isn't top notch, but she could certainly give the top American and Russian ladies some trouble on an off night by them. I do hope MK gets her 3-3 going if she intends to make all the podiums this season...but she will not need a 3ax to keep up, not this season.

[Cmoneynoair]

I really hope Michelle doesn't stay for the 2006 Olympics. I think her time has passed and it is time to give other younger skaters (Sasha, Sarah, AP, Jenny etc.) a chance to be #1 in the world. She has already been to 3 Olympics and won 2 medals and she seems to look at it as a disapointment which I don't understand because many skaters would be thrilled to achieve what she has. I don't have anything against her at all I just think it is time for her to go Pro and let some others shine.

[Hannahclear]

They do have a chance to be #1, but they have to beat her, which they are capable of doing. Other than that, I don't think Michelle owes them any favors....

[amethyst]

Originally posted by Cmoneynoair
I think her time has passed and it is time to give other younger skaters (Sasha, Sarah, AP, Jenny etc.) a chance to be #1 in the world.

They have a chance. All they have to do is skate well and win. Sarah proved that in SLC. It's not up to Michelle (or Irina, or Angela, etc) to step down to "give others a chance". It's a sport, not a game of tag.

[karina1974]

Originally posted by New Yorker
Just to clarify, Michelle has attended 3 Olympics (1994, 1998, 2002), but has only been a competitor at two of them (1998, 2002). In 1994, she was the US alternate, and was on site in case one of the two US ladies (Nancy Kerrigan, Tonya Harding) could not compete.

Yes, and the IOC does not regard alternates as being Olympians, so 1994 does not count.

In regards to Cmoneynoair, all the US skaters have the same shot at Michelle's glory, and then some. Is Sarah not the reigning Olympic champion? Is Sasha not the top skater going into the GPF? If AP and Jenny want the to reach the top step of the podium they should know by now what it will take to dethrone Michelle. They're all capable of doing it, but so far, I think Sarah and Sasha are the only real threats for a Dallas upset.

[loveskating]

I don't think Kwan owes anyone any favors...but I agree with those who feel she does not have the goods to reinvent herself...she is a very, very conservative skater, has won by being conservative, IMHO. If you compare her wins to Sarah's, for instance, she is very conservative.

[Hannahclear]

I wasn't aware the seven triple programs (1996, 2000, 2001) at World Championships were conservative?

I'd define it more as a skater who knows the value of a clean, sharp skate, with maybe less difficulty than a messy, harder skate, like Irina for example. Also, Frank Carroll placed a very high value on this, and I think it hurt Michelle's tendency to be aggressive. In fact, if you look at her new program, there is no place for a 3toe/3toe but two 3/2 combos up front, which, according to practice reports are supposed to be 3/3s.

Yes, Kwan has been conservative, often at the worst possible times (ie the Olympics) and I'd be first to suggest that she get a sports shrink. However, Michelle does best when she has been counted out, declared dead by the skating world.....its when she has to deal with the hype that she tends to crumble.

[bunghodog]

reinvent her self? great article!!

[JDC1]

Michelle shouldn't step down, how silly and insulting to the other skaters. I think this year the title is up for grabs even more so than last year because Sasha has steadily improved her weaknesses and if she can get a 7 clean triple program with a 3/3 she has an excellent chance of beating a clean no 3/3 Michelle. I still think "all things being equal" in the jump content Michelle wins based on her superior edges and if Sarah can skate like she did at Olys then it should be very interesting because they're all really close in ability, each has their weaknesses and strengths.

As for conservative...she's is by no means a conservative skater she just would rather go for a beautiful and complete skate without errors instead of a)never having a clean long and depending on others to win b) sloppily looking around for places to add "missed" combos c) or cheating her combos by not doing 3 complete rotations. However, I will concur that it would be nice to see her push the envelope a little more in the "lesser" competitions like she did at SC last year. I think the 3lutz/3 toe is totally within her ability.

[Likethewind]

TO anyone who says Kwan should "let the others have a chance"

WHERE do you get this garbage?

Do you ask a competitive RUNNER to STOP running and give the younger ones a chance??????

They HAVE the chance RIGHT NOW. It is UP TO THEM TO BEAT HER, NOT up to her to move out of the way! FOR HEAVENS SAKE THIS IS AN ATHLETIC EVENT!!!!!!!!!!!

If Kwan has the goods, more power to her, if not, the others WILL beat her - make no mistake about that.

SHe reminds me of Boitano. She LOVES to compete. Period. It is in her blood.

I wish her good luck. I think she still outclasses all skaters in the world with the exception of Cohen. And she is far and away the most seamless skater we have seen ever. Many skaters can learn a LOT from her.

GO KWAN. And I say this as a devout Sasha fan.

[duane]

it wasnt michelle being "conservative" that was her undoing at the 2002 Olympics, but her not landing a clean, conservative program.

regarding whether michelle should step down and "let others shine"...i agree that this is insulting to other skaters. i remember years back, elvis made the comment that rather than have kurt browning "hand" him the crown, it would be more interesting if he, elvis, could "take it". i'm sure this has perhaps been the mindset of both sarah and sasha over the years. olympic gold itself is great, but i'm sure to sarah, the win was even greater in that she beat the two top-ranked women in the sport. and, i'm sure that if, say, sasha were to win US Nationals, the win would be even more satisfying if michelle is standing lower on the podium.

so, i am estatic that michelle will compete at both Nationals and Worlds, and i hope that she does remain eligible until the 2006 olympics. her name in a competition brings excitement and competitiveness. i hope michelle is able to regain that confidence and consistency that was once her trademark, and that we get to see some exciting michelle/sasha/sarah/onda/irina/fumie showdowns for years to come.

[BigB0882]

So its time for Michelle to step over but Sarah can stay in, even though she has the Olympic gold?

Sports arent about taking turns, its about being the best and trying your hardest. To get to the very top of any sport, you must earn it and not have it handed to you as you wait in line.

[HappySushiSk8]

I didn't mean that Michelle can't win because she does not do the triple axel jump. I think that it is a beautiful and awesome jump, but Michelle is a beautiful skater too. But I think that Michelle needs a triple-triple jump then if she wants to win. That is why Sarah won Michelle at the Olympics. I hope Michelle goes for the triple-triple at competition this year. Then I think she should stay amateur. Good luck Michelle!

[nits]

just curious...of the ladies that have medaled at the GP events this season, how many landed 3/3's?
In all fairness, MK landed a 3/3 at Worlds (QR) last season.
If MK must go for not having a 3/3...then I suggest that Irina and Sasha pack up their bags and follow right behind her.
When was the last time Irina landed a 3/3? And has Sasha ever landed one? (simple answer...NO)
Gosh...how many skaters will remain after all the girls without consistent 3/3's go pro? My guess....not many.

[loveskating]

The debatable issue is broader than having or not having a 3/3, IMHO.

IMHO, Michelle Kwan has never been a technically spectacular skater like Tara or Irina or even Oksana Baiul in her prime; she has been a "well balanced" skater, with consistent but relatively ordinary jumps, and her edge on the competition has been her presentation, not her jumps or spins. She beat skaters more accomplished than she technically like Tara and Irina on presentation, relying on their mistakes, not even having the elements they planned, and when they had a clean skate WITH those high risk elements like the 3/3 loop, they beat her; without them, they did not. Likewise with Sarah.

I'm skeptical that at the age of 21 Michelle Kwan can suddenly become a technical and high risk skater...which is precisely what she would have to do to be different, less conservative, more of a risk taker. But MUCH MORE THAN THAT, the very idea that she would want to implies that she is dissatisfied with her record.

This decision of Michelle's reminds me of Joan Sutherland, a truly great coloratura soprano singer, beloved and honored, nicknamed "La Stupenda" by the Italian PUBLIC, who declared at the end of her career that she had wanted to sing Wagner, never wanted to be a coloratura!!

[LilRedRidingHood]

As I read these posts, I have to ask... Is being a "conservative" skater a bad thing? It seems some suggest it is.

I see nothing bad about being conservative. I think knowing your own abilities and taking calculated risks based on others perfomances are two traits critical to being a world class athlete. I don't think Michelle is any less worthy of her cache of medals because she did what she had to do to win. Actually, she seems like a very brilliant strategist, if you ask me. No shame in that.

I don't see anything "shameful" in winning because you capitalized on your competitors mistakes. How many football teams would NOT run the ball in for a touchdown their opponents had fumbled?

:roll:

[quarkiki2]

Well, as far as I can tell, the only skater who NEEDED a triple-triple last year was Sarah Hughes at the Olympics. And she NEEDED two of them. If Kwan or Cohen had managed to skate clean, they'd be the Gold medal winner right now, 3-3 or not. Slutskaya was basically clean, so she may have NEEDED a 3-3 to win Olympic Gold. It was still pretty close -- all four of those women were within tenths of points of winning.

Same story at Worlds -- the medalists did not NEED a 3-3 to get to the podium. And even if they had landed them in the LP I don't think the results would have changed. Even if Kwan had won the LP, she needed someone else to top Irina and that wasn't happening this year.

And, so far this year, none of the Grand Prix winners have NEEDED a 3-3 -- their basic skating quality has been the reason for their wins.

Will they need a 3-3 for American/Russian Nationals and Worlds? I dunno. Perhaps more so for Nationals than for Worlds because the National competition is pretty tough, especially for the Americans.

[SJ82]

Oksana Baiul? Wasn't she notorious for 2 footing her landings?

All this emphasis on high technical, 3/3's, etc. but yet we complain about all the skater's injuries. Michelle has only been out once, with stress fracture to foot, that I know of. Maybe her example should be appreciated instead of mocked. What happened to NNN could easily happen to Sasha or others. That would be a sad loss .

[rack]

Originally posted by LilRedRidingHood
As I read these posts, I have to ask... Is being a "conservative" skater a bad thing? It seems some suggest it is.

I see nothing bad about being conservative. I think knowing your own abilities and taking calculated risks based on others perfomances are two traits critical to being a world class athlete. I don't think Michelle is any less worthy of her cache of medals because she did what she had to do to win. Actually, she seems like a very brilliant strategist, if you ask me. No shame in that.

I don't see anything "shameful" in winning because you capitalized on your competitors mistakes. How many football teams would NOT run the ball in for a touchdown their opponents had fumbled?

:roll:

The limitations to Michelle's "strategy" showed up at both Olympics. In 1998, she was unprepared for the possibility that Tara's presentation marks would be comparable to her own. She had already ceded the technical marks by not having equally difficult jump content.

As far as the 2002 Olympics went, Michelle seemed to ignore the rise in Irina's presentation marks, and the fact that Irina had defeated her in every head to head competition that year. I don't blame any of the top skaters for being unprepared for Sarah's skate, but Michelle would be wearing gold if Irina had not beaten her in the long program. That was a possibility Michelle had to recognize months before Salt Lake City and yet she didn't strengthen her program to make defeating Irina more likely.

To use the football analogy, Michelle could be accused of using a prevent defense, and a lot of teams have lost that way in the last two minutes of a tight game.

Finally, I have read many many posts that while not saying Sarah's victory was "shameful" have suggested it was lucky, because the top three skaters all made mistakes. To me, Sarah was the one with the best strategy. She knew she needed at least one triple/triple to win and that two would increase her chances. Her program was filled with in betweens and quality spins and spirals. She adapted to the changes made between Nationals and the Olympics in music and choreography, and she showed up well trained and ready to perform. She was prepared to take risks and the risks paid off.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by rack
The limitations to Michelle's "strategy" showed up at both Olympics. In 1998, she was unprepared for the possibility that Tara's presentation marks would be comparable to her own. She had already ceded the technical marks by not having equally difficult jump content.

To me, Sarah was the one with the best strategy. She knew she needed at least one triple/triple to win and that two would increase her chances. Her program was filled with in betweens and quality spins and spirals. She adapted to the changes made between Nationals and the Olympics in music and choreography, and she showed up well trained and ready to perform. She was prepared to take risks and the risks paid off. Well said, and dead on accurate!! Michelle (and to some extent Irina) seemed to think they could win by skating they way they had always skated. Sasha (who tried the 3/3, and came darned close) and Sarah, knew they could not stay the same and Win. Sarah and Sasha went home after Nats and worked. Sarah's re-vamp of her program was perfect, and she skated beyond her own ability (she was even surprised!). BTW - I think Sarah's skate (and Tara's at Nagano) show the Olympic spirit at it's best: Throwing caution to the wind, and skate full out, from the heart. You could see the joy and inner strength when each of them took the ice for their Oly LP. Although there is much in Sarah's skating that I would like to see improved, I never tire of watching that LP!

[venice]

I had to de-lurk just to reply to this thread. I hardly think that Michelle and Irina felt that they could just skate the way they always did and win the Olympic medal. If you'll recall, both did not have good seasons last year and had trouble hitting their 3/3's. I don't know as much about Irina, but everyone seems to be forgetting that Michelle did attempt a 3 lutz/3 loop last year. Although unsuccessful, she was trying to add to her technical arsenal. If anything, I think she was too aggressive last year. I think going from a 3 toe/3 toe to a 3 lutz/3 loop is far too risky in an Olympic year. I also agree with ending her association with Frank Carroll, but she should have done it about two years prior.

As for the Olympics, I hardly think she underestimated Tara in '98. She simply had a stress fracture and couldn't do her 3/3, let alone anything more difficult. In '02 she had no choice but to attempt her normal 3/3, as the other attempts did not work. She did upgrade to a 3 lutz/2 loop, however.

As for reinventing herself, she has done that already in '95. She just did it sooner than most. How many times can skaters reinvent themselves? Maybe once a career. After that, it's a matter of improvement. Let's not forget, she has tried more difficult combinations for several years now. They caused her back problems and she stopped. That's her choice. She seems to be making more solid decisions at this point, i.e. working with a coach she's more comfortable with and attempting combinations such as 3 lutz/3 toe, which, I agree, is more within her range of capability.

[Hannahclear]

ITA venice, Michelle has timed things poorly, ie leaving Frank, but it was the right decision. He did tell her repeatedly, don't try that in comp, you'll fall, well gee, it made her tentative, unsurprisingly.

She did try and upgrade last year, but couldn't do it, and with the stress of the Olympics stuck w/ 3 toe 3 toe, which if she had landed, she would be wearing the gold (if skated clean). Sarah was in 4th, and it was only by falling that Michelle opened the door, not what she could do.

In 98 she was injured, she didn't think she could just get away with it, if you remember she did 2 3loops in her LP, not her favorite jump, just to try and keep up, but a broken toe is a broken toe and she couldn't have done her 3/3.

[JDC1]

She didn't underestimate anyone at the Olys and she was FAR FROM cautious or conservative last year!!! Where were you people...she tried the 3z/3l and couldn't master it she's not an edge jumper and she really should have tried the 3z/3t. She took Irina very seriously and possibly too seriously and that's why she trained the 3z/3loop. Michelle failed to win Oly 2002 gold because of nerves, it's that simple, she was very stiff and tight and couldn't shake the nerves. 98 IMO will always be open for debate, I think a flutz like Tara's and her tight and tiny 3l/3l were quite over rated the only reason why I could have seen Tara winning was speed, she looked much faster on TV than Michelle did and it's alot harder to do all the elements quickly. Nay say all you want Michelle is the most well rounded skater completing the elements and components of figure skating better (imo) than any other woman in the 10 years and possibly 20 years with the exception of Kristi Y, who I don't think was a better singles skater but combining pairs and singles took a lot of talent and ability. It's really ridiculous to think Michelle's never worked on harder 3/3's quite the contrary but I think she was working on the wrong combos, she should stick with toe pick jumps not edge jumps.

[LilRedRidingHood]

Originally posted by rack
The limitations to Michelle's "strategy" showed up at both Olympics. In 1998, she was unprepared for the possibility that Tara's presentation marks would be comparable to her own. She had already ceded the technical marks by not having equally difficult jump content.

As far as the 2002 Olympics went, Michelle seemed to ignore the rise in Irina's presentation marks, and the fact that Irina had defeated her in every head to head competition that year. I don't blame any of the top skaters for being unprepared for Sarah's skate, but Michelle would be wearing gold if Irina had not beaten her in the long program. That was a possibility Michelle had to recognize months before Salt Lake City and yet she didn't strengthen her program to make defeating Irina more likely.



Hi Rack-

I really wasn't attempting to point out that Michelle's strategy is fool proof. So, if winning the Olympics is the pinnacle to the overall success of a stratgey, then I can see how one might view Michelle's unsuccessful.

You are right - Michelle's strategy didn't work for her in either Olympics. I don't think she would not have attempted the 3/3 in Nagano if she wasn't injured. Of course, that's a guess on my part. I think, again, she used her conservative strategy - "I'm not going to try the 3/3 because I'm not landing it successfully" and by Tara having the skate of her life, that strategy didn't pay off for Michelle. I think the same events, only replace Tara with Sarah, took place in 02. I don't think Michelle ignored Irina. I don't think she was willing to insert a jump she had a bad chance of landing. Quite simply, she had to take a gamble. Either do it and probably fall or don't do it and stand up. Unfortunately for her, standing up wasn't enough in either of those two events.

Collectively, however, I wouldn't say being coservative has hurt her more than it's helped her.

Michelle's conservative approach maybe irksome to some, but I think there are a fair amount of fans who also are bothered skaters with a more "gutsy" ststaegy. By that I mean, inserting jumps to make up for mistakes earlier in the program, or attempting a jump that the skater is not landing consistently in practice. Sure, it's exciting to watch, and sometimes it works out OK. But I think, more often than not, it does not pay off in the long run.

[gatorboy]

It's a lot easier to skate with abandon and take risks when you aren't the odds on favorite, when you have nothing to lose. Michelle and Irina were almost co-favorites, Michelle definitely the fave in the American media.

Same thing in 98. people counted Tara out after Nationals, so she had little to lose at Olympics (as far as people saying 'Tara lost the gold'. Only a favorite has that pressure.) Personally, if I was the Olympic favorite, I doubt I could do a back crossover without falling, or at least peeing my pants/costume.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by gatorboy

It's a lot easier to skate with abandon and take risks when you aren't the odds on favorite, when you have nothing to lose. Michelle and Irina were almost co-favorites, Michelle definitely the fave in the American media.

Nancy Kerrigan proved otherwise - she skated her heart out at Lillehammer, despite being the fave of the American media and all the commotion surrounding the Kerrigan/Harding saga. It was a very close decision between gold/silver than year (and some still argue till today she should have won).

[venice]

Hi Adrian,

I have to disagree, while Nancy Kerrigan had the skate of a lifetime at the O's, just like Tara and Sarah, she was never considered the favorite. She may have been the emotional favorite and the media darling, but I believe everyone's money was on Oksana to win every since she won worlds. Nancy was a very talented, but seriously inconsistent skater prior to the O's and I think many people were quite surprised that she won silver. You can't compare that to the pressure that Irina and MK were under at SLC. Nancy was already going to be a millionaire no matter what the result and no one would have blamed her if she didn't do well.

As for the "conservative" one, I think that label better suits Frank Carroll. He is the one with the famous quote "it's figure skating, not figure jumping" and he has always hated the emphasis on jumps. It's no coincidence that MK started attempting much more difficult combinations immediately after she ended her relationship with him.

[rack]

I don't think Michelle or anyone in her camp ever seriously thought she could outjump either Tara or Irina, and it would have been a waste of time and energy on their part to create a program where she attempted to do so.

What Michelle could do better than both Tara and Irina was skate a complete program, a very high number of triple jumps with better spirals and footwork and at least equal quality spins (not to mention choreography, musicality, and all those other amorphous catagories that are judged). I was at Nationals last year, and what made everyone gasp with pleasure in Michelle's program were the two falling leafs, not the lutzes or the flips.

For Michelle to win either of those Olympics, she had to out-present her competitors. In 1998, she had a beautiful program, but it had to be a shade more beautiful than it was to compensate for Tara's more difficult jumps and greater speed. In 2002, Michelle had competed her program against Irina's often enough to realize Irina was beating her on presentation as well as technical marks. Michelle needed to add more choreography, such as the two falling leafs, to take the second set of marks away from Irina. That bizarre Grand Prix final second long program result should have been a wake-up call for Michelle (as Nationals was for Sarah).

[hiliairyh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adrianchew
[B]Nancy Kerrigan proved otherwise - she skated her heart out at Lillehammer, despite being the fave of the American media and all the commotion surrounding the Kerrigan/Harding saga. It was a very close decision between gold/silver than year (and some still argue till today she should have won).

I agree partially with you. Was Nancy the clear favorite, Oksana was the reigning world champion going into 94 Olympics. I appreciate Nancy skating her heart out after the knee whacking. I equally appreciate Michelle Kwan skating her heart out in Nagano after a stress fracture on her toe. She did not have the 3/3, she did not skate as free as Nationals 98, but she did a darn good job, not enough to beat Tara. I think Olympics 98 proved to be one of the best ladies competition.

[duane]

i have several points.

among knowledgeable skating fans, nancy wasnt considered the favorite in 94. she had a reputation of melting down in the LP. not only oksana, but perhaps chen lu and surya were considered more likely to medal than nancy.

however, the 94 olympics was a completely different ballgame. media coverage increased perhaps tenfold, as well as viewership, and to many of these casual skating fans (after months and months of "ice princess", "america's skating queen", tonya wanting to "do away" with the competition-type stories), nancy was the favorite. nancy's great showing and olympic silver were perhaps surprising to knowledgeable skating fans, but to the millions of casual fans, her not winning was seen as somewhat disappointing.

in 94, i think the pressure of being under such intense media spotlight was extremely tremendous, especially for someone like nancy, whose discomfort with being under the media glare was obvious. nancy and tonya's every move was reported. all cameras turned to them when they stepped on the ice. nancy defintely deserves credit for being able to perform as well as she did, because many would have buckled--as tonya did.

regarding the 98 olympics, i totally agree that it proved to be one of, if not the best ladies competitions. i became a FS fan late in the game, but i doubt that there has been an Olympic competition where both ladies skated such great short and long programs. michelle made history by being the first woman to land 7 triples in an olympic LP, and shortly afterwards tara matched this, with a historic 3loop/3loop to boot. this was a competition that definitely could have gone either way.

regarding michelle and irina at the 02 olympics, i actually dont think the pressure irina was under came anywhere near the pressure michelle was under. not only was michelle the reigning World champion, but she was also the reigning Olympic silver medalist. unlike irina, michelle was expected to win the medal that she didnt win 4 years earlier. add to this the pressure of performing in the US!

[coco]

I can see both sides to the strategy arguments, but one thing I'll never understand is why MK didn't try a 3z3t. Her 3z2t combo is solid and provides a good foundation for learning that triple triple. All I can figure is that she didn't want to mess up her short program combo. Too bad she didn't feel comfortable enough to commit to the 3z2loop in the short, leaving her free to learn the 3z3t for the long.

I love being a sports fan ;) Second guessing is an art ;)

[loveskating]

Well, whether Kerrigan was the fave or not, she was under enormous pressure in 94 to deliver the goods, and she did skate her heart out, even landing a 3/3 tl...she did not have a conservative approach under the pressure, rather a very bold one, and all the more so considering her meltdown record previously.

Anyway...the highest technical level Kwan has achieved is the 3/3 toe loop....that should not have beaten Tara or Sarah...and it probably wouldn't have beaten Sasha if she had executed her bold LP and landed that 3 lutz/3 toe loop. Personally, I don't think it should have beaten Irina either, given the quality of Irina's skating except for the spirals and her 3/2 difficult combos. (Don't forget that the referee called it for Sarah at Skate America last year, and that Sarah beat Kwan at Skate Canada).

Again, at the age of 21 its not likely she can significantly up her technical level...it is more likely we will see the very same Michelle.

In any case, I can't fathom what she wants (and so all in all I can't help but speculate as to negative goals). She has a stack of medals, 5 nationals, 4 worlds, 2 olympic silvers; she is probably the highest paid skater out there; she is famous, among the best known skaters in the world, she has dominated the sport for 7-8 years; she has won every award out there, including the Sullivan Award.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that she did up her tech level...including her spins (layback included), would someone have to invent some more awards for her to receive? Does she get even more money? Can she be more famous as a skater?

I'm sorry, but to me this quest of Kwan's is as if the likes of Luciano Pavarotti in the 1980s went back to Parma to debut La Boheme after he had already been there, done that, and reached the level of singing and defining a very, very difficult opera, Ballo in Mascera.

For the likes of Pavarotti to push a young tenor at Parma off the stage and ruin his career merely for the sake of some personal quest would have been mean spirited...and more importantly, no one particularly wanted to see him sing La Boheme yet again. We wanted him to move on and sing and define yet another opera...which he certianly did, Tosca.

[spiralsrfun]

Great post duane...ITA 100%

[quarkiki2]

I'm not quite following the Pavarotti analogy. Aren't opera singers contracted to perform? That's not really a competition like figure skating. If Michelle were holding a place in a show which should go to a younger skater, then that makes more sense, but that's not the case.

I don't even attempt to understand her motivation for staying an eligible skater, but I do admire it. Isn't she doing what all athletes want to do: trying to stay at the top of her game for as long as possible? I say her game, because she's not trying to stay at the top of Irina's, Sasha's, or Sarah's game. She's trying to challenge herself to stay at the top of MICHELLE'S game, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

This isn't an easy sport in which to achieve longevity, especially since the elimination of figures. And whether or not Michelle is pushing the envelope by landing multiple 3-3s or 3 axels, she is most certainly elevating the technical standard by simply pushing her body and mind to attempt 7 triple programs for the last 10 years. She is and was the skater who makes 7 triples necessary and she also makes great skating necessary. Face it, you won't beat Michelle Kwan with five triples and sloppy skating unless you have some judges in your pocket and she's off her game. It's not a bad thing for her to raise the level of expectations for every skater -- you wouldn't have the stunning programs we've seen from Tara, Sarah, Sasha, Irina, or Maria if they didn't have to skate THAT WELL to beat Michelle.

I, for one, am glad she's still in the mix because she brings out the best performances in everyone, including herself.

[LilRedRidingHood]

Originally posted by loveskating
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that she did up her tech level...including her spins (layback included), would someone have to invent some more awards for her to receive? Does she get even more money? Can she be more famous as a skater?

Is it possible money and fame are not part of her "quest"?

Originally posted by loveskating I'm sorry, but to me this quest of Kwan's is as if the likes of Luciano Pavarotti in the 1980s went back to Parma to debut La Boheme after he had already been there, done that, and reached the level of singing and defining a very, very difficult opera, Ballo in Mascera. [/B]

I'm not sure I follow. What "quest" of Kwan's are you referring to? To remain eligible?

Originally posted by loveskating For the likes of Pavarotti to push a young tenor at Parma off the stage and ruin his career merely for the sake of some personal quest would have been mean spirited...and more importantly, no one particularly wanted to see him sing La Boheme yet again. We wanted him to move on and sing and define yet another opera...which he certianly did, Tosca. [/B]

How this translates to me is: No one wants to see Michelle anymore without a complete metamorphosis. She should not attempt to make the podium as she already has everything she could possibly ever want and her "quest" to remain eligible is mean spirited toward other lesser accomplished skaters.

Surely, I've lost something in the translation?

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by duane
michelle made history by being the first woman to land 7 triples in an olympic LP

Just as a point of fact, Midori Ito landed 7 triples in her third-place 1988 Olympic LP. Too bad for Midori (but good for Debi Thomas) that she was too far behind to win a medal, but since your history making claim for Michelle didn't include anything about medals anyway, Michelle didn't make that particular bit of history.

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Well said, and dead on accurate!! Michelle (and to some extent Irina) seemed to think they could win by skating they way they had always skated. Sasha (who tried the 3/3, and came darned close) and Sarah, knew they could not stay the same and Win. Sarah and Sasha went home after Nats and worked. Sarah's re-vamp of her program was perfect, and she skated beyond her own ability (she was even surprised!). BTW - I think Sarah's skate (and Tara's at Nagano) show the Olympic spirit at it's best: Throwing caution to the wind, and skate full out, from the heart. You could see the joy and inner strength when each of them took the ice for their Oly LP. Although there is much in Sarah's skating that I would like to see improved, I never tire of watching that LP!

Sarah's skate was incredible for her, yes. But there's a lot to be said for not throwing caution to the wind. She could just as easily have landed on her butt. It just happened to work for her. If Sarah had been in first place after the SP, I highly doubt she'd have thrown caution to the wind. She simply had nothing to lose being in 4th.

[speedy]

Well if we're gonna make grandiose musical analogies concerning Michelle, I'd say she better fits as U2 than Pavarotti. ;) Anybody remember Pop Mart? LOL What a mistake. As a fan of U2 since 1980 I, and I'm sure most, U2 fans were glad to see them return to their true, unimitable form with Elevation. Michelle's many fans don't WANT to see her reinvent herself...we like her just fine the way she is, thank you very much. :D

[RoseAugust]

I also "like her just fine the way she is."

[duane]

Ellyn,
Wow, i didnt know midori landed 7 triples at the 88 Olympics. Do you happen to know what jumps she landed? I'm curious as to whether she landed any 3/3's or the 3axel.

Loveskating,
Well, one could argue that one can never make enough money, or become too famous. :)

still, i think michelle just likes to compete, and as long as she feels that she can, more power to her. i agree with quarkiki2 that michelle remaining in the eligible ranks is admirable, especially in a sport where longevity is rare, as is her desire to continue to raise the level of her game. also, remember that tho michelle has a stack of medals, there is one particular medal that isnt yet in her stash, and perhaps that is also a factor for her decision to remain eligible.

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by duane

Wow, i didnt know midori landed 7 triples at the 88 Olympics. Do you happen to know what jumps she landed? I'm curious as to whether she landed any 3/3's or the 3axel.



I can't remember if Midori did a 3/3 in 88 but she would have to in order to do 7 triples. So assuming that Midori did do a 3toe-3toe at Calgary, these were the jumps she performed: 2Axel-.5loop-3sal, 3lutz, 3flip, 3loop, 3toe-3toe, 3sal, 2axel.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by peachstatesk8er
Sarah's skate was incredible for her, yes. But there's a lot to be said for not throwing caution to the wind. She could just as easily have landed on her butt. It just happened to work for her. If Sarah had been in first place after the SP, I highly doubt she'd have thrown caution to the wind. She simply had nothing to lose being in 4th. The reference to "throwing caution to the wind, and skating with abandon" had to do with a particular skate (like Michelle at '98 NATS), not to a particular strategy. On that evening, Sarah was IN THE ZONE! (I am not sure, actually, that she could have fallen on her butt----there were angels guiding her!) But, she had also followed up her performance at NATS with a strategy that allowed her to deliver the goods.

Sarah looked around at US NATS, and said "Holy $$it!" She wasn't first, and she wasn't second. Then she went home, took her program apart, and came back with the technical arsenal, choreography and music to win the Gold. That is what I mean by strategy.

Michelle's strategy failed (IMO) in '00 when she didn't realize (or care)that Irina's presentation marks were closing the gap between them, and that Irina's technical abilities were far ahead. Michelle had skated out in front of everyone for so long I think she and hers became complacent. Irina came back with a supberb technical arsenal, and vastly improved presentation. Michelle, up until then, could win simply with her presentation marks. And then, all of a sudden, she couldn't.

And, rather than going back to work to up her tech level, it appeared that she just continued to do what she does so well.....skate beautifully. But, it was no longer enough.

Now, I don't care if Michelle skates until she is 110 - and uses a walker.....it could start a trend or something LOL! But, I hate to see an athelete, any athelete, stay around too long (kind of like Pete Sampras or Maria B.). I like to see them go out on top-having us begging for more.

NOTE: I did not say that Michelle was on the way down or out. I only mention a point in time when the bod (or mind) can't/won't do it all as well as the younger bodies and minds.

[jkrjob]

Well, Pete won the US Open last year and it was great to see. And, if I recall correctly, Maria won Europeans last year. So I am not sure that you can really argue that they stayed around too long.

Personally, I think the folks whining that any athlete has stayed around to long are just being selfish. For example, they may just be afraid for their favorites or they may just like to see new competitors. But from my view point, a true fan wants what is best for the athlete. And if that is staying in until they cannot qualify for competitions, etc., then so be it.

[Badams]

"Michelle's strategy failed (IMO) in '00 when she didn't realize (or care)that Irina's presentation marks were closing the gap between them"


i don't recall a time when irina's presentation EVER CAME CLOSE to michelle's. it never has and never will!

[duane]

if michelle had a planned strategy to skate conservatively at SLC, it actually was a good strategy.

i remember shortly after the judges' panel for SLC was announced, many here said that the panel was pro-michelle. i think they were right (proof being michelle ending up in first after the technical program--very rare for michelle (who didnt even skate cleanly) to place over a clean irina in the SP). if fans are able to determine if a panel make-up is more or less favorable towards a certain skater, i'm sure the skater and his/her team are able to do so as well. perhaps michelle realized, "hey, with these particular judges on the panel, all i need to do is skate a clean, conservative program. if i do, 5 of the votes are mine". again, if that was the plan, it was one that would have worked--IF michelle had skated cleanly in the LP.

[momslovelove]

Only Michelle knows. I dont think Michelle underestimated anyone. Im not sure what the point is. There isnt a skater out there who is a complete skater thus far. No one does a fully rotated 3/3 consistantly and most never do . Yes its easy to skate with abandon when you have no pressure duh! Sorry Irina has been overmarked for a few yrs. I see no glory in winning with halfA$$ skating and getting 5/8s and 5/9s. So that comparison is a joke. This season is the 1st. time Irina got the marks she deserved and some were high at that. So why the call for Michelle to retire how about Angela, Irina, V.v. Yags, Plushy, Robinson, Sarah she has Oly Gold so she needs to step aside so your fav can have it, this whole subject is stupid. No athlete should stop competing so the young ones can win. Michelle isnt as old as half the skaters out there. As for Tara, look at her now. I say if skating is going to destroy your body quit but if your strong and healthy and you want to compete continue. An awful lot of people think they know what cant be known unless your told. So far Michelle hasnt confided in me, so I dont know.

[Yazmeen]

I look at it this way. When some of those "younger and more deserving" skaters start CONSISTENTLY laying down programs that are clean, with multiple consistent triples and combinations, and beat Michelle and other skaters who have been around for more than awhile, then yes, perhaps it may be time for Michelle and some of the other "oldsters" to move on. Until then, however, go Michelle, go Irina, GO, you old girls. You've still got it, let it show.


Sasha, Jenny, AP, etc--they all have the opportunity and chance before them. Let them compete and SHOW that they are the best. Let them demonstrate the consistency that we have seen from Michelle and Sarah and many before them and add even more to that. They have the shot. What better way to prove that you are the best than to exceed those who were the best before you? To suggest that your opponents should leave the game to give you an opportunity is weak. Each skater has her chance--let her go for it!!! To be blunt, if your favorite is the best let her PROVE it--you shouldn't ask for others to leave to give her a better opportunity.

This is an exciting year--may the BEST lady win!!!

[Chico]

ugh....... Everyone who enjoys the sport of figure skating has a right to an opinion, but the only person who gets the right to decide what is right for Michelle is herself, coach, and the judges. Who she wants to be when she skates, what she does or does not do as a skater is also her choice. Michelle shares her skating when she competes and does shows, and we do have the right to have opinions on what we see, but what and how she chooses to lead her skating life is hers. The only expert here is Michelle. Good, bad, or otherwise it's her choice. Sure I have feelings watching the skaters skate at competitions and such, but what I think isn't where it's at. This is their journey. Michelle will turn pro when and if she gets to that point. Personally I'm enjoying watching her journey. It's not always the destination, but the journey. And I think she's having an incredible trip.

Chico

[momslovelove]

Yay Yazeem, ITA, watch the posters who run Michelle down and out. Its the same ones who have a fav. Now all the older skaters had to compete and win by skating clean and doing the jumps and required elements correctly, thats why they won, so these posters think their fav should just win, no consistent programs, underroted jumps, flutzing out the ying yang, falling, not well put together programs like fly from jump to jump, programs not complete and balanced. However its their fav. and ssoooooooooooo they should be elevated to winhood. Sorry if the young up and comers want to win they need to earn it. The best skater doesnt always win and thats part of the corruption in the sport. Thats how it is for now. Not one skater out there is clean and consistent . 3/3s arnt being done by any, Hughesdoes underroated 3/3s I guess thats OK. When a skater attains quality clean balancedconsistent programs we will have new winners. The seasoned skaters are still the best.

[hydro]

Michelle's strategy failed (IMO) in '00 when she didn't realize (or care)that Irina's presentation marks were closing the gap between them, and that Irina's technical abilities were far ahead. Michelle had skated out in front of everyone for so long I think she and hers became complacent. Irina came back with a supberb technical arsenal, and vastly improved presentation. Michelle, up until then, could win simply with her presentation marks. And then, all of a sudden, she couldn't.


i'm not quite sure i understand this part. Michelle was the World Champion in 2000, correct? she was also the World Champion in 2001, correct? the strategy Michelle used to get those World titles is the same strategy she implored at the 2002 Olympic games. she simply failed to deliver her planned strategy, and thus opened the door for other skaters to walk through (which they did).

to this day, no skater has ever beaten Michelle Kwan in the long program when Michelle has landed her easy 3/3 and a complete 7 triple program. i would say her strategy worked very well when executed.

you can say its only a matter of time that someone does it, but its been 6 seasons in the making. it suprises me how often people forget that Michelle was injured during the 98 Olys, and was off the ice for a month prior to Nationals. that is a serious issue. she was unable to train a 3/3 that season, so i don't think it was a matter of being conservative. the fact is she was injured and unable to train 100%.

as for taking risks, what other skaters risked skating to obscure music like the "Red Violin" or "Song of the Black Swan" or "Lyra Angelica" or "Arianne" or "Salome"? there are other risks besides simply doing jumps. Michelle has continuously pushed the envelope with music choices while other skaters have skated to familiar pieces heard a million times over. this season it was Michelle who was criticized for skating to familiar pieces, but yet, Sasha Cohen is skating to Maleguena and Rachmoninov, pieces so over-used its become a skating joke. why is that Michelle is singled out in this category?

i just don't see the fatal flaw in Michelle's so called "conservative strategy". it has yielded 6 national titles and four world titles. is it time for her strategy to change? you bet it is. but a change of coach, change of choreographers, change of music choices, all amount to a change in strategy. We have yet to see if it will pay off this season, but judging by the GP series and the Olys last season, i'm not writing anyone off, nor their "strategies".

as for being conservative, i guess its a matter of perspective. but firing your coach 4 months before the olympics, hiring a different choreographer when Lori Nichols is considered the be all end all in skating choreography, increasing jump difficulty with the added 3lutz/2loop, and attempting 2 3/3s in a packed event is not my estimation of conservative. if anything, i think Michelle took too many risks last season.

[Chitta]

Originally posted by loveskating
I don't think Kwan owes anyone any favors...but I agree with those who feel she does not have the goods to reinvent herself...she is a very, very conservative skater, has won by being conservative, IMHO. If you compare her wins to Sarah's, for instance, she is very conservative.

I take strong issue with you, as Michelle is in no way a "very, very conservative skater." She's just quite aware that she has an incomparable level of artistry & an inimical artistic style so why "tamper" with, why alter what already is quite masterful & sometimes is a masterpiece!?!

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Chitta
I take strong issue with you, as Michelle is in no way a "very, very conservative skater." She's just quite aware that she has an incomparable level of artistry & an inimical artistic style so why "tamper" with, why alter what already is quite masterful & sometimes is a masterpiece!?!

Kwan has been EITHER technically very conservative in competitions that really counted, or she simply does not have the technical goods, you can't have it both ways.

Kwan's highest technical level has been the 3/3 toe loop. She has NEVER even attempted in competition a 3 sal/3 loop, a 3/3 loop, hardly ever a 3 flip in combination of ANY kind, and it was news when she landed a 3 lutz/2 loop which was almost 1/2 underotated and TINY.

I dunno, but when Stojko began to land the quads, Yagudin and Kulik etc. got one, is all. They didn't rely on their presentation or "inimical" whatever...and they landed them when it counted, they were NOT conservative, they did not rely on the mistakes of others who could do more than they could, flat out.

[Hannahclear]

Loveskating said: Kwan's highest technical level has been the 3/3 toe loop. She has NEVER even attempted in competition a 3 sal/3 loop, a 3/3 loop, hardly ever a 3 flip in combination of ANY kind, and it was news when she landed a 3 lutz/2 loop which was almost 1/2 underotated and TINY.

~She attempted at 3 lutz/ 3 loop at SC last year and fell.

~She has landed 2 3flip/2toes this year, at Campbell's and and SA.

~Her 3 lutz/2loop was not underrotated by 1/2, and while the 2loop was small, the 3 lutz was not.

~She has landed the "easy" 3 toe/ 3 toe (I think) 8 times in competition: 1996 Nationals, 1996 Champion Series Final, 1997 Worlds, 1999 Nationals, 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds (Qual Round), 2001 Worlds, 2002 Worlds (Qual round)---which I might add is more successful 3/3s than many ladies have accumulated in similar amounts of time.


Just setting the record straight.....:)

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Hannahclear
Loveskating said: Kwan's highest technical level has been the 3/3 toe loop. She has NEVER even attempted in competition a 3 sal/3 loop, a 3/3 loop, hardly ever a 3 flip in combination of ANY kind, and it was news when she landed a 3 lutz/2 loop which was almost 1/2 underotated and TINY.

~She attempted at 3 lutz/ 3 loop at SC last year and fell.

~She has landed 2 3flip/2toes this year, at Campbell's and and SA.

~Her 3 lutz/2loop was not underrotated by 1/2, and while the 2loop was small, the 3 lutz was not.

~She has landed the "easy" 3 toe/ 3 toe (I think) 8 times in competition: 1996 Nationals, 1996 Champion Series Final, 1997 Worlds, 1999 Nationals, 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds (Qual Round), 2001 Worlds, 2002 Worlds (Qual round)---which I might add is more successful 3/3s than many ladies have accumulated in similar amounts of time.


Just setting the record straight.....:)

I said Michelle "hardly ever attempted a 3 flip in combination of any kind" to which you responded by citing two attempts, which in a career of 8+ years is indeed "hardly ever". I think she made more attempts than that, but still, "hardly ever" applies.

Her 3 lutz/2 loop is perhaps slightly less than 1/2 underotated, but it is the most badly underrotated in that combo out there, and the loop is extremely small...doesn't compare with Sarah's, much less Irina's. Kwan's jumps are not big or particularly powerful in general.

It doesn't matter how many times she landed the 3/3 toe loop, when the issue is what is her highest technical level. Her highest technical level so far is the 3/3 toe loop. For instance, I'd say Sarah's highest tech level was the 3/3 loop, which she no longer does, apparently, but her 3 sal/3 loop shows she has simply achieved a considerably higher tech level than Kwan, is all while Irina's highest tech level is the 3 lutz/3 loop, and Tara's was the 3/3 loop.

How many times did Ito and Harding land the 3 axel? Not many, really.

When discussing the issue of CONSISTENCY, then the number of times landed is relevant.

On that issue, however, in my view, its simply EASIER to land a 3/3 toe loop consistently than it is to land a more difficult, high risk element like Sarah routinely lands (3 sal/3 loop), just as its plain easier for a guy to land a 3/3 toe loop than a 3 axel/3 toe loop, consistently or otherwise. Consider that Boitano can no longer do a 3 axel period, much less in combination, but he can still do a 3/3 toe loop! Its easier.

None of this says anything about who won or should win whatever competition...its much more complicated than that...however, it does say something about the subject of this thread, and I remain skeptical that Kwan can in any way significantly raise her tech level, she is already at the top level as to presentation, and no one has said anything to convince me she is not a very conservative skater.

[nits]

I think Hannahclear did an excellent job in presenting the FACTS.

As to whether some are convinced or not...who cares?!
Michelle has had a wonderful career and I think it'll be a VERY long time before any female skater can top what Michelle has accomplished. Yes, some may beat her (and some have) but it always Kwan that makes the headlines, and comes back stronger.

[Hannahclear]

Well, it seems that 3 flip combos are now an element in her LP, and she did complete a nice 3 lutz/2loop last year, so those would be moderate technical improvements, maybe not the biggest leaps, but still progress of some sort.

According to practice reports, Michelle is working on 3lutz/3toe and 3flip/3toe, which makes sense, as there is no place in her program for a 3toe/3toe.

And while 3toe/3toe may be easier than other 3/3s, if like this season, no one lands a harder 3/3, it would do wouldn't it?

Thanks nits.

**Oh and I checked my tape, the 3lutz/2loop may have been slightly underrotated at times, but it was not at Nationals, or at the Olympics

Loveskating said: "On that issue, however, in my view, its simply EASIER to land a 3/3 toe loop consistently than it is to land a more difficult, high risk element like Sarah routinely lands (3 sal/3 loop), just as its plain easier for a guy to land a 3/3 toe loop than a 3 axel/3 toe loop, consistently or otherwise. Consider that Boitano can no longer do a 3 axel period, much less in combination, but he can still do a 3/3 toe loop! Its easier."

~Of course it is, but you know it can't be that easy, or I guess we'd see every lady landing them, eh?

[jss]

Also I know that in the "book" of skating a 3sal/3loop is harder than a 3toe/3toe, but I think that isn't really fair for it to be an absolute. I mean the sal/loop is most definately hard, BUT I believe it is MUCH easier for Sarah to land a sal/loop than a toe/toe. I don't think she could land any triple toe jump combos without serious work on the takeoffs. There are also skaters who I don't think could ever do 3loops on the end of any of there combos. I'm not trying to down play what Sarah or anyone else does, but I think sometimes it is silly just to say something is absolutely harder when it varies from skater to skater. (yes again I know that by the rules it is harder, but I think there is more to the issue)

[gracefulswan]

that is VERY true jss. i do not think triple/3 loop jumps are "more" difficult...just b/c there's an edge jump at the end... after all, can hughes do a triple/3 toe jump? the fact is, edge jumps are easier for her just as toe jumps seem to be kwan's forte...;)

[Patty]

Originally posted by jkrjob
Well, Pete won the US Open last year and it was great to see. And, if I recall correctly, Maria won Europeans last year. So I am not sure that you can really argue that they stayed around too long.
Pete Sampras won the US Open THIS year, and Maria won Europeans THIS year. I love it when the more mature athletes win. It's more inspiring than when youngsters win. I also enjoyed the skating of Maria and Elvis more the older they got.

Personally, I think the folks whining that any athlete has stayed around to long are just being selfish. For example, they may just be afraid for their favorites or they may just like to see new competitors. But from my view point, a true fan wants what is best for the athlete. And if that is staying in until they cannot qualify for competitions, etc., then so be it.
I'm not sure why people do this. IMO, unless they are God or a close loved one of the person, I don't think people have the right to tell someone to give up what they love to do. However, if these people are truly sincere in their beliefs, then they themselves should retire from their work or hobbies they love to do when their perfomance level downslides or becomes stagnant.

[Patty]

Originally posted by rack
I was at Nationals last year, and what made everyone gasp with pleasure in Michelle's program were the two falling leafs, not the lutzes or the flips.
I was at Nationals this year. None of the ladies lutzes or flips made me or most of the audience gasp, except maybe AP and Mok, the only two US ladies who consistently do true lutzes. I, and I think, many fans are more impressed with line, position, flow, musical interpretation, etc. than jumps. That's why we love Kwan's falling leaves and spiral, and Sasha's positions.

I do gasp at the mens' jumps, because of their height. Most ladies just don't get enough height on their jumps to gasp at. I do always gasp at VV's high true lutz, and some of Irina's jumps. But, they and maybe Yoshie are just about the only ladies jumps many fans would gasp at.

[Patty]

Originally posted by loveskating
The debatable issue is broader than having or not having a 3/3, IMHO.

IMHO, Michelle Kwan has never been a technically spectacular skater like Tara or Irina or even Oksana Baiul in her prime;
Oksana was never a technically spectacular skater, and AFAIK, no one but you has ever called her that. She was and is known as one of the greatest artistic skaters of all time. During her very short amateur career, there were many who were stronger technically: Nancy, Tonya, Yuka, Surya, etc. IIRC, Oksana never did a 3-3 or even that many 3-2s. She sometimes struggled with her single triples, and I don't think Oksana ever did a seven triple program.

she has been a "well balanced" skater, with consistent but relatively ordinary jumps, and her edge on the competition has been her presentation, not her jumps or spins. She beat skaters more accomplished than she technically like Tara and Irina on presentation, relying on their mistakes, not even having the elements they planned, and when they had a clean skate WITH those high risk elements like the 3/3 loop, they beat her; without them, they did not. Likewise with Sarah.
Well, AFAIK, Michelle has skated more seven triple programs in competition than any other ladies' skater in the history of skating. IMO, that's quite a technical feat that more people should appreciate. If this were like other sports, it would be considered a record, like homeruns or successful passes or catches in football. Also, I and many others think it's much more important what skaters actually perform in competition, rather than what they say they'll do or plan to do in competition, or what they land just in practice.

I'm skeptical that at the age of 21 Michelle Kwan can suddenly become a technical and high risk skater...which is precisely what she would have to do to be different, less conservative, more of a risk taker. But MUCH MORE THAN THAT, the very idea that she would want to implies that she is dissatisfied with her record.

This decision of Michelle's reminds me of Joan Sutherland, a truly great coloratura soprano singer, beloved and honored, nicknamed "La Stupenda" by the Italian PUBLIC, who declared at the end of her career that she had wanted to sing Wagner, never wanted to be a coloratura!!
So, I guess you're referring to when Michelle said she sometimes wishes she was still a young jumping bean? Well, I still think she's grown to love the artistic side of skating. As someone who much prefers the artistic side of skating to the tricks side, I'm so glad Michelle has become such a great artist. And I still think she's quite strong technically.

So you're saying Joan really wanted to be Birgit Nielson (sp?)? I'll take Joan's Bel Canto Coloratura anyday over Birgit's Wagnerian dramatic mezzo! I find Joan's voice so much more spectacular.

I hope you're not inferring that Joan didn't take risks, because she did. Joan started out as a mezzo. Then, in her very early career, she did perform some Wagnerian dramatic soprano roles. Then, her husband, coach, and mentor Richard Bonynge encouraged her to go for what was then (in the early-mid '50s) the rarely done coloratura repertoire of the Bel Canto period (Donizetti, Bellini, etc.) Wagner was much more popular than the Bel Canto composers back then. So, both Joan and Callas took risks by bringing back Bel Canto. Would the impresarios and fans of opera want to see/ hear it and accept it?

So, Joan ended up jumping up several fachs (vocal types): from one of the lowest, mezzo-- to one of the highest, coloratura. It can be very risky to change fachs, especially by that much. It is not only difficult to accomplish, but can also lead to vocal problems that can end singing careers. Scotto and Moffo only went one step down, from lyric soprano roles to more dramatic soprano roles, and it ruined their voices and ended their careers.

Joan is naturally shy and conservative, especially back then. Without her husband's encouragement and support, many have wondered if she would have dared to even think of taking, yet alone have actually taken those risks. If she hadn't, then she may never have had the stupendous career she had, despite her exceptionally sparkling pure voice.

Like Richard Bonynge was to Joan, I think Scott W., Morosov, and others will be to Michelle-- they will serve as mentors that will encourage her to take risks and try new things. I think we are already beginning to see this in Michelle's SA SP, now available on Real Video.

[loveskating]

I agree with you partly -- Oksana was not known as a technical skater, for her artistry was overwhelming....which is why I used the word "even", said "even Oksana Baiul"...my unstated point being that she had a number of truly spectacular, innovative elements...her doughnut spin was remarkably fast, for instance, faster than Tara's; she had a huge delayed axel, big jumps in general, including her salchow, a big and correct lutz, and her spins were fabulous...also her catch spiral. (Nancy had a 3/3 tl but it was small as to ice coverage and height, which are differentiators in the rules, as were most of Nancy's jumps including Nancy's true lutz, quite smallish).

I'd agree, in achieving the 3/3 toe loop, Kwan exceeded Oksana as to the technical aspect...but Kwan's jumps are not nearly as big as Oksana's were, nor have I seen her do a huge delayed axel like the one Oksana did in her SP at the 94 Olympics -- but Kwan's jumps are bigger than Nancy's were.

Also, I absolutely agree, Harding, Ito, Surya were way ahead of Oksana (or Kwan) technically...now THOSE were some technical skaters, with absolutely astoundingly huge jumps, especially Ito and Harding...bigger than Volchkova's in fact.

My point about Joan Sutherland is that when she said she had wanted to sing Wagner she failed to own her incredible career, and instead, gave credence to her detractors, who were IMHO full of beans (in general, the notion that Wagner is superior is incorrect, IMHO). She was among the TRULY great coloratura singers, even brought many brilliant operas back to the public, like Donizetti's Lucia, and she basically single handedly built opera in Australia singing Idomeneo. So when she lent credence to her critics by giving in to them, she wound up heself criticizing what she had done, rendering it rather less worthy in her own eyes and thus dumping cold water on her own fans!

Similarly, I wish Kwan would embrace and take ownership of her own accomplishments and all she has brought to the sport, and move on to do more in an arena where I believe she can do considerably more (while at the same time, I am very dubious that she can do any more in the amateur ranks because the only way to do more is to raise her tech level considerably) (although I think Sasha's presentation is above Kwan's)

I believe this is a debatable issue on the merits, as it would be when anyone who has a great record stays in beyond the time they were expected to. Such a debate comes up around everyone I've known of, including Pavarotti, so why not Michelle Kwan?

[duane]

Originally posted by jss
Also I know that in the "book" of skating a 3sal/3loop is harder than a 3toe/3toe, but I think that isn't really fair for it to be an absolute. I'm not trying to down play what Sarah or anyone else does, but I think sometimes it is silly just to say something is absolutely harder when it varies from skater to skater. (yes again I know that by the rules it is harder, but I think there is more to the issue)

i totally disagree.

according to "the book", the degree of difficulty in jumps--from more to less difficult--is axel, lutz, flip, loop, sal, toe. so, it should be absolute that the 3sal/3loop is considered more difficult than the 3toe/3toe.


perhaps it is MUCH easier for sarah to land the more difficult 3sal/3loop than the 3toe/3toe, but oh well. for the skaters who cant do combos with a 3loop on the end, the way for them to balance that is to land a combo with a more difficult first jump---say the 3lutz/3toe or the 3flip/3toe.

yes, actual jump difficulty varies from skater to skater. it was much easier for kristi to land the "more difficult" 3lutz than the "less difficult" 3sal, while maria would rather land the 3loop than the 3toe. still, imagine if the judges were allowed to base jump difficulty not on the general rule, but base them on the "varying degree of difficulty" per skater! talk about total chaos! :)

[Yazmeen]

I find the suggestion that Michelle might have "stayed too long at the dance" interesting. She gets picked on for not upping the ante technically, yet none of the ladies, save possibly Sarah, have consistent 3/3's; in fact, several of them simply don't even do consistent 6 or 7 triple programs on a regular basis like Michelle and Sarah do. Yet, its Michelle who should move on and turn pro.

All of the current top eligible ladies, including Michelle, have great talent and ability, and no-one is past their prime. Let them all compete and let the BEST one win. Michelle is definitely on of my favorites, but I can certainly see that Sasha has the capability to beat her and come out on top, as does Sarah, or Irina or even Vika, Yoshie, Fumie or others. As Sarah proved at the Olympics, it all comes down to the skate. Saying Michelle should leave the eligible ranks because she hasn't upped the ante technically makes as much sense as saying Sasha should quit because she hasn't laid down a consistent 7 triple long program or completed a 3/3 in competition as many of her competitors have. Both ladies and all the others mentioned have what it takes to win, and suggesting any of them should leave just smacks of "I want her out because I don't like her and that way my favorite has a better chance", whether its meant that way or not. I'm looking forward to seeing all the ladies compete this season, and may the best skate(s) in each event determine that winner. It will be great if its Michelle, if its Sarah, if its Sasha, Yoshie, Vika, whoever. I think the more I skate, the more I respect every elite skater for what they accomplish, and while I have my favorites, its still great to see any of them win with a great performance. Isn't that what its really all about?

OK, off soapbox!!!!

;)

[spiralsrfun]

On soapbox...

I love reading threads when people always say:

"Michelle's always conservative in her jumps"
"She is technically inferior in jumping than the others"
"She's not a good jumper"
"yadda"
"yadda"
"yadda"
8O

(when will this end...this kind of talk goes against the facts)

As someone who's been following the sport closely for over 20 years, here are a few facts.....

Fact sheet:

* Michelle has landed more 6 and 7-triple long programs than any senior lady in this sport, by far, ever. If that's not "technical"...I don't know what is.

* Eleven times she's landed a clean 7-triple program...I believe that's still a record, and the only eligible skater close to her today on this is Sarah.

* 25 times she's landed a 6-triple long program...pretty conservative huh.

* She's landed her "easy" 3t/3t eleven times in eligible competitions...which puts her #2 or #3 in 3/3 success, falling just behind Tara and perhaps Surya.

Like Michelle or not...
Like her skating or not...

...I'm sorry, but you can't deny her technical excellence when it comes to her jumping technique and record. So, please find something else to critique her on.

(off soapbox) ;)

[adrianchew]

A challenge to the soapboxes... perhaps the problem is that the Michelle "flavor" of skating has not changed much in the past couple of years. Her programs have the same general look and feel to them.

What's your thoughts? I'd like to see contrasts in themes like a truly "dark" dramatic program, a lively upbeat playful program, and not just the typical pretty princessy programs that a lot of ladies tend to do. ;)

[Luenatic]

Originally posted by adrianchew

What's your thoughts? I'd like to see contrasts in themes like a truly "dark" dramatic program, a lively upbeat playful program, and not just the typical pretty princessy programs that a lot of ladies tend to do. ;)

Dark dramatic program, like "The Red Violin" or "Miraculous Mandarin"?
Lively upbeat playful program, like "Rush"?

[spiralsrfun]

A challenge to the soapboxes
LOL....I love it ;)

Excellent point Adrain!

This is why I'm personally excited about Michelle's music choices this season, as they're a departure from what we've seen over the past two-three seasons.

The Feeling Begins: sultry, sexy, mature and bold.

Aranjuez: The version she's using is very upbeat, fun and flowy.


Looks like you got what you wanted ;)....although when she went "Dark" as in the "Miraculous Mandarin" she was criticized for being too different. I guess she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't...lol.

Her music choices this year are different, yet they both play to her strengths and IMO are the best since her 98-99 season.

[icyboid]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Lively upbeat playful program, like "Rush"?

Don't forget A Day In The Life! :)

[Yazmeen]

Um, Adrian, exactly WHICH lady has shown a distinctive change in flavor over the last couple of seasons?

Sorry, but you could argue that Sarah (wide eyes "Oh MY" to the audience and her other signature affects) and Sasha (here's the Charlotte, here's the skid, the spiral, every program ends in that painful looking but amazing spin) and Irina (the Bielmann combo, three turns into a loop, same old, same old). With ALL of the top four ladies I sometimes feel I could change the music but the program would be the same.

The simple fact is that none of them can AFFORD to radically change each year--but the small changes are noticeable. Michelle's new SP is NOT EOE or Rach, Sasha's Malaguena is not her previous short. Sarah and Irina, well, the jury is still out there, but I find it interesting how Michelle is always blamed for "sameness" where others are not.

I think it comes down to a simple fact: Michelle has very passionate fans. She has equally passionate detractors who would find fault with her developing a cure for cancer. I guess its whatever floats your boat.

[Badams]

michelle could skate to the alphabet song dressed as a clown and some people here would STILL scream "same old, same old michelle." LOL!

[adrianchew]

Yazmeen - Sasha's Hernando's Hideaway and Sarah's Fosse are both quite different. Irina's cowboy number. Sasha's Aria program when she was injured (ribbon number).

As others have pointed out - Miraculous Mandarin is such a program for Michelle, but it was canned before it had time to develop. This is sort of like the same situation as Sale/Pelletier's Orchid program... which to me is a masterpiece but never fully got used either.

I was looking for answers of programs that would resemble what Romanza and Salome were for Michelle. I'm not nearly as excited with The Feeling Begins or Aranjuez but both programs haven't been fully developed yet... aside from footwork, the programs still looked the same.

Bear in mind, Michelle has carried her flavor for far more years than Sasha or Sarah has... these two are babies compared to Michelle.

[bunghodog]

why does Michelle have to change? what makes a skater beautiful is what they bring to the ice, Michelle brings elegance, beautiful line and great jumps, Michelle will stay as long as she wants and actually I think she makes the other skaters work harder, because they know how good she is, she has helped make the us lady skaters the best in the world. I cant wait till Nationals, Michelle, Sasha, Sarah, Ann and jenny, and I will be there, may the best skater win!!

[hydro]

Yazmeen - Sasha's Hernando's Hideaway and Sarah's Fosse are both quite different. Irina's cowboy number. Sasha's Aria program when she was injured (ribbon number).


yes, but these are also all Exhibition programs compared to Michelle's competitive programs. let's compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. in terms of exhibition numbers:

Winter - Tori Amos - Alternative Rock
World Is Not Enough - Garbage - Rock (this would fit the quota of a "fun" type program)
Kissing You - Ballad
This Time Around - Broadway
Fields of Gold - Adult Top 40
Beautiful World - I don't even know what this is, but its very different than Garbage, i'll know that

where is the same old same old?

now lets look at her competitve programs from the past 4 years

98
SP - Rach
LP - Lyra Angelica

99
SP - Carmen
LP - L'amentos D'Arianne

2000
SP - A Day In the Life
LP - Red Violin

2001
SP - Rush/EOE
LP - Song of the Black Swan

2002
SP - EOE/Rach
LP - Scheherzade

2003
SP - The Feelings Begin
LP - Concerto D'Aranjuez

in the past four years, Michelle has had the most musical diversity, i think, out of any of her competitors. the only music that would be considered jaded would be "Carmen", with the possibility of Aranjuez and Scheherzade (but you don't see them too often). what other skater has would risk skating to such challenging music as "The Red Violin", "A Day In The Life", "Rush", or "Ariane"? the same old same old label can be applied to many skaters, and is often unfairly applied to Michelle. sure, she could expirement more, but what skater couldn't?

in terms of Michelle's competitors, Irina has skated to Carmen, Don Quixote, Shubert, and Tosca - all very used pieces. Sasha has skated to Carmen, Malaguena, Rach - also, all very used pieces. yet, its Michelle who is criticized for the same old same old when there is no basis for it.

when talking about risks in all aspects of skating, where is the category for musical choice? surely Michelle's musical selections would not be considered "very very conservative".

[adrianchew]

hydro - you miss my point totally. Its not the choice of music - its the chereography, feel, and program as a whole. Music alone does not definite a skating program... its the interpretation of the music and the variety of the interpretations. You can use a whole range of music and just move your elements around - the program is still in the same typical "flavor".

[icyboid]

That "sameness" you talk about, when used to describe anyone else is called "style".

[Kemy]

Sure, the MK style will always be evident in her programs. When you expect the same, that is what you will get.

I just watched both Sasha's short and MK's short without music (since we're comparing the choreography and not music.) Michelle's movements are more dramatic than normal. She carries herself in a way that demands attention. It's not just a pretty piece.

[Kemy]

Doesn't everyone just move their same elements around? Same spins, same spirals, same moves...blah blah blah.

[kwanette]

Brilliant posts...

[RobinA]

Add me to the list of people who think that the "Michelle needs to up the technical ante" crowd needs a history lesson. The facts simply don't bear out that she's behind technically, popular wisdom not withstanding. Sure, she doesn't go out there and throw ugly triple axel attempts, but some would consider that a good thing.

As far as "sameness," I consider this her style. No artist can be a winner with every style, style is too much a function of personality. Do we say that all Van Gogh's paintings look the same because he doesn't do anything that looks like a Rembrandt?

[spiralsrfun]

Originally posted by adrianchew
hydro - you miss my point totally. Its not the choice of music - its the chereography, feel, and program as a whole. Music alone does not definite a skating program... its the interpretation of the music and the variety of the interpretations. You can use a whole range of music and just move your elements around - the program is still in the same typical "flavor".
They are who they are, and they'll skate like they skate: MK, SH, SC, IS, VV, FS, etc....

IMO once a skater reaches their "butterfly" stage, they've developed their own style, after that, they merely continue to develop it. Michelle did it in 95-96 with Romanza/Salome. Sarah did it last season, Sasha did it last season, Irina finally did it in 99-2000, etc.

You can always tell a Michelle program, just like you can always tell a Sasha program, Irina program, Sarah program etc...it's who they are. Scotty is still Scotty, Kurt is still Kurt, Todd is still Todd. Music can change their choreography, but not their style...that endures and is unique to each of them.

[Patty]

Originally posted by loveskating
I believe this is a debatable issue on the merits, as it would be when anyone who has a great record stays in beyond the time they were expected to. Such a debate comes up around everyone I've known of, including Pavarotti, so why not Michelle Kwan?
I'd say age 60 is to opera singing what age 30 is to eligible skating-- sort of a cut off point most can't go past. (Sutherland was one who went longer- 65!)

IIRC, Pavoratti is over 60. A few years ago, he was so overweight, he could barely walk. He's performed at concerts seemily unprepared, needing to use music when he shouldn't. He can no longer hit a high C, the tenor's triple axel/ quad.

So, I could maybe see a comparison between Pavoratti and Boitano, Elvis, Todd, etc. But, I don't see the comparison between him and Michelle at all. Michelle is still quite young, incrediably fit, almost always hits her triple lutz, and is still capable of at least second and third place finishes at Nationals, Worlds, and other eligible competitions.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Patty
I'd say age 60 is to opera singing what age 30 is to eligible skating-- sort of a cut off point most can't go past. (Sutherland was one who went longer- 65!)

IIRC, Pavoratti is over 60. A few years ago, he was so overweight, he could barely walk. He's performed at concerts seemily unprepared, needing to use music when he shouldn't. He can no longer hit a high C, the tenor's triple axel/ quad.

So, I could maybe see a comparison between Pavoratti and Boitano, Elvis, Todd, etc. But, I don't see the comparison between him and Michelle at all. Michelle is still quite young, incrediably fit, almost always hits her triple lutz, and is still capable of at least second and third place finishes at Nationals, Worlds, and other eligible competitions.

Well, my point far more narrow than that: it was that such debate occurs (legitimately, I think) even over the likes of Pavarotti...I did not intend a direct comparison.

The broader comparison IMHO would be that in opera or skating (or theater etc.), one needs to move forward in some way, no one can rest on their reputation and get away with it, not EVEN a Pavarotti or a Gigli or a Michelle Kwan.

P.S. Actually, Pavarotti's knees were gone when he couldn't walk at the Turandot performance at the Met a few years ago...he shortly had knee surgery. He was not overweight, was quite thin in fact (for him). And he hit a gorgeous high C, brought the house down with Nessun Dorma. His voice was still there, but the fireworks all through the opera were gone, he only had the physical strength for the very best moments, like Nessun Dorma. I was at that performance, and it was fabulous, I don't care what the critics say, but not up to the Pavarotti of even 5 years previous.

[Badams]

ok...i have to ask. where in the world did all the pavoratti discussion come in here and what does he have to do with figure skating, michelle kwan, or this thread? you can't compare michelle and pavoratti. it's like comparing apples and cement.

[momslovelove]

Might I suggest that all fans turn off the music and watch the skaters,you will see all have a style,thats the word. Each does the same program in turms of how they move, elements ,jumps, maybe things are put in different places but its a style that each owns. Michelle has no more reason to change then any other skater. Now for some she would have to skate up the walls and over the ceiling and they would still bash. I like her style.

[PAskate]

There is all this discussion of Michelle's style; yet the flavor or style of any given program is a joint work by the artist and the choreographer. Michelle spent most of those years working with Lori Nichol. When she started working with another choreographers, everyone complained that the new programs didn't look or feel like Michelle.

:idea: :idea:

Yes, music doesn't define a program, but the skater's joy and feeling in skating to that music does define the program. Whether you like Michelle's style or not, it is clear that she feels joy in skating to the music that she chooses, and that's should be the goal of any skater. Find the joy in skating and share it with the audience! I may not always think that any one program is the best ever, but I would be hard pressed to think of any current skater that more throughly shows me the joy that they find in just skating than Michelle.

[Likethewind]

momslovelove and others:

You are so right. Turn off the music and watch what happens. The truly GREAT CHAMPIONS and skaters have a style all their own and you could tell if they had a BAG over their heads.

I could tell the following skaters even if they had a bag over their head and wore totally black outfits and had no music:

Boitano
Curry
COusins
Kwan
Cohen
Hughes
Fleming
Lynn
Witt
Browning
Orser
Beacom
Bielmann
Trenary
THomas
Cadavy
Hamill
Yagudin
Plushenko
Elvis
Kerrigan
Yamaguchi
Slutskaya
Sato
Weiss
Eldredge
Wylie

THese skaters all are totally different from each other. I have three photographs each of a different skater in a mens' spiral position with the leg held up straight at a 90 degree angle or higher from the ice and the body in a straight line with the leg or slightly higher. THe photos are of
Eldgredge
Weiss
Wylie

THey are TOTALLY different andinstantly reconginzeable even though they are the same exact "move".
Eldredge is straight as an arrow and very dynamic looking
Weiss is slightly arched and more graceful
Wylie is very arched and the prettiest and most stretched of the three.

All are VERY stretched and elegant but each epitomizes the style of the skater. I have mounted two of these (Eldredge and Weiss (Wylie is in a different album) ) side by side for comparison. BOth of them are wonderful but they are entirely different because the skaters are different in style. No music needed. You can see it.

Equally so, when it is sloppy and the skater clearly does not care a fig about it, it shows. No stretch, not horizontal, no arch. no intensity etc.

Try it with womens sprials too. You will INSTANTLY recognize Kwan, COhen, BObek as unique in a positive way, just as you can tell immediaely that for example Butyrskaya did not care at all about it andit shows. Same with laybacks. Youwill know who is who with a bag over their head. I could tell you the following laybacks with no other identifications by the quality and style or lack thereof(with no indication of which in my opinion are good or bad by the way!):

Kwan
Fleming
Lynn
Cohen
Nam
Hughes
Butyrskaya

ANy other moves people know by style?
I can tell jumps by the followingpeople without seeing their heads:
BOitano - power and confidence unequalled and visible. He made a style out of jumping like no other.
Kwan
Cohen
probably Orser and McDonough because both lean!
Eldredge - he changes axis midair and still lands like a cat!
Weiss- he scratches axel entries so much it hurts to watch
Hamill and Cousins - instantly recognizeable by straight clean entry, HUGE delay and HUGEness of jumps and cleanness of landings.

Hey - I just realized I have diverted and this is a Kwan thread! Sorry!

I think she ought to keep going as long as she wants to.Why on earth not!

[lilwish]

Really interesting post, even if you did digress a bit! People who are not enamored of Michelle don't like the exact thing that I love about her. For me, what they consider to be the same old same old is the ability that Michelle has on the ice to skate from the joy she has inside of her and sense of peacefulness and serenty from her. When she diverts from that type of program I still love to watch her because her positions are still beautiful but I never am as involved in the programs. I guess that's just what makes the world go around. Everyone likes what they like. No one moves me the way Michelle can, not yet anyway. Todd could do it too - Yags...but a program like EOE which everyone said was overused - I could have watched it for years. It just was a thing of beauty to me. I think she should stay around as long as it satisfies her. She qualified for the grand prix final by entering one event! If that doesn't tell you that she is viable as a competitor, what will?

[duane]

oh, i just wanted to be the one with the 100th post. :)

[Likethewind]

lilwish - I agree 100% - I think EOE is one of the best programs I have ever seen and it epitomizes Kwan. I never get tired of it and the music is so incredibly moving and beautiful I am at a loss why people criticize it. It was one of the most PERFECTLY choreographed programs I have ever seen.

Janet Lynn was more graceful and moved and flowed better on the ice than anyone ever. You should see tapes of her. The USFSA still uses her programs as examples of flow I think. Talk about JOY on the ice! She oozed it!