Hip Injuries and Figures

[Spider68]

Okay, we've beat this puppy into the ground, but with SOOOOO many hip injuries, don't you think this is another piece of evidence to support the importance of figures to skating development. I can't help but wonder how much the hip area was strengthened and the skater learned to control himself/herself by those brackets and shifting of edges while skating/leaning backwards, especially the old 4th test!!!!!

[Thrilla]

Could be...but I am much more inclined to think that doing all the triples hour after hour in this day of mandatory triples for Novice and above (for those hoping to win Nationally) is the factor that is contributing to the increase in injuries.
The longer skating season also contributes to overwork and injury.
Developing a repetoire of triples requires a tremendous number of awkward falls on a cold hard surface in order to become consistant.
Injury is bound to happen sooner or later under such conditions and expectations.

[missmarysgarden]

There is ample medical research to support the detrimental effect of high impact on the hip joint, particularly in growing children. It is to be expected as doubles and triples are being performed in younger and younger athletes when the growth plates are vulnerable, and the long bones more flexible, that deformities and injuries to the hip are an occupational hazard.

Obviously, it isn't the number of rotations that are the problem. It is the height of the jump (the higher the jump, the greater the impact), and the greater number of repetitions that are required to master more difficult skills. Also, incomplete rotations (more frequent in attempting more rotations) are very stressful on the hip because of the angle of the femur in hip socket when your body weight isn't directly centered over the landing foot.

If a 12 year old is attempting triples, how many times would you who are skaters estimate that child has landed, hard blade on hard ice, learning how to jump?

[JD]

missmarygarden:

I agree-which is mine isn't allowed to do her double axel yet, even though it is staring her in the face,[ she has the rotation and the timing and has landed it before]... because her tiny size is such that until I as her parent believes her body can handle the impact of dealing with the continual falls to get to consistency, to say nothing of the impact on the land, she is waiting....unless the doctor tells me otherwise

She hasn't yet been to sectionals, and I see no reason for trotting her off there given that 10 and 11 year old girls in Canada have started the triples and are landing them in juvenile. If they are landing them at that age, then they must have surely started them earlier. By the time mine is ready-emotionally and physically, to enter her pre-novice year, many of the little ones will be long gone from either injury or fatigue.

JMHO, but I don't believe just because you might be able to do it, you should. I believe if the talent is really there, it will shine through even if you wait [though I might be wrong-its a risk that at this point I'm willing to take]

[chattykathy]

Spider 68- what piece of evidence are you talking about? Did I miss someone else with a new hip injury?

[missmarysgarden]

You are a good Mom, JD. Some coaches and parents get carried away when a young athlete demonstrates great talent and determination at a very young age. Its hard, especially when other coaches eyes are shining with excitement while he's saying "I can take her to the top." I can understand it as a (former) gymnastics coach. Every once in awhile I see a mighty mite who has EVERYTHING it takes to be a champion - including a sound body. Its amazing how many of this little ones have disappeared before the age of 12. Its usually injuries. And among the top gymnasts over 12?? Any given week, there are numerous athletes who "scratch" for a variety of stress injuries flaring up. By 16, there are long lists of athletes who are "done" because of chronic injury.

Don't get me wrong. I love youth athletics. Gymnastics is my sport, now as a judge. And I still spend time in gyms with young athletes. But I don't think pushing young girls and boys through numerous repititions of high impact skills is wise - they aren't old enough to make the decisions for themselves, and I applaud you JD for drawing the line. Chances are your daughter will catch up - and have a longer skating life than the mighty mites.

[AxelAnnie22]

I was very fortunate to take ballet lessons, as a child, from a wonderful Ballet Mistress who WOULD NOT ALLOW us to even look at a pair of pointe shoes until we were twelve. It was her view (and a correct one, I might add) that a growing body is not ready for the stress of dancing en pointe. The same has to be true for all the jumps.

I would also add $$$ as a factor. Prior to the days when amateur skaters could make the big bucks, there was less incentive to push as much. Also, there was actually a skating season. It lasted az few months, and then there were several months to recover before you started in again. Now, with the Tom Collins Tour, and pro ams, the season is simply on going. There is no break.

I wish the ISU would put a limit on the number of triples in the LP.

[missmarysgarden]

I had a ballet mistress who put us en pointe at 9-10. And I have the feet to show for it. I have an "admirable" coupe de pied, but my toes are a wreck - really almost deformed.

[Chico]

JD,

I also think your making smart choices for your child. My coach, I skate, says, "Just because you CAN doesn't mean you should." Sounds like you. As a parent I hear you, as a skater I fight like crazy at this notion. +-)

Chico

[JD]

giggle...

I am sure my husband and I are pretty unpopular for not going that extra step-and yes, we know about those shining eyes....she is ahead of her peers at this stage...

she certainly has the determination, the body, and some talent- given how she stands out, but her down side, if you can say that, is that she is genetically about 2-3 years smaller than her age .... as I had said, here on the boards a long time ago, she is in the 1/2 of the 1% of the population size/height/weight-wise, so say all her medical studies [they thought something was wrong with her at one time] and anyone who has seen her in person will certainly agree that it is hard to picture her doing any sort of double...

I agree with missmarygarden about the girls who to me at least, are much bigger in size, so it would seem like they can handle these jumps, but yet they are still very young, doing the repetition every day pounding their bodies into the ground. It cannot be at all good for their hips, or what I think of-the lower spine.

I know mine keeps herself fit by doing hip abductor exercises the kinesiologist gave her....as well as ballet and various stretching exercises....she is anxious to do pilates...

But I've seen some of the girls I'm talking about in action, and the off-ice training leaves much to be desired. Puberty and jumping beans may not mix without the extra fitness....grin...if the constant push ever does help...

Just my thoughts, I just feel quite strongly about this...though I sometimes worry if she later doesn't catch up [since now she's ahead] that she will resent us for keeping her back...we hope not...

I'm sure we are very frustrating for our coaches, but in the end, its my daughter's best interests we have to think of.

And it seems like the pros are proving my point these days, particularly with Tara Lipinksi in mind...

[Spinner]

JD,

I just have to say GOOD FOR YOU! You stick to your guns and remind your daughter (and your detractors, if any) that she'll be happy in 20 years when she can walk with no problems or pain. It's so nice to hear from a parent who puts their child's safety and health before any overly-ambitious dreams at 'hitting it big' too early. :)

[JD]

Spinner,


thanks! and you have no idea the number of people where she skates who feel compelled to offer their own opinion on the topic....

[not always positive....]

Cheers all

[icenut84]

Good for you, JD. I think it's a great decision you've made, to draw the line and not risk your daughter's health by her doing jumps she might not be ready for. Kudos to you. :) And think about it, when she does get onto the double axel and triples eventually, she'll probably beat everyone hands down with her footwork and spins since they'll have been practicing jumps non-stop! :) Just out of interest, how old is she?

[JD]

she is newly 10....and quite small at below 50 lbs ...-looks like a very small 7-8 year old, ...so we have made her wait....and will try to as long as we can... lucky for us she wears size 6x slim at the GAP...grin, because skating equipment has become a problem due to her size and what she works on...so the fact that the 10 to 11 year olds at sectionals are trying triples, presents other problems...which is why she isn't, and won't be there...they are twice the size, strength and weight of her, and it isn't as though she will grow anytime soon...

Last year judges actually sent a runner down to ask if she was in the wrong category at one of the competitions...grin....

And thats why I hope she still has a chance when she's grown a little, we sort of struggle with this because her dreams are so big...and I know that the pre-novice ladies are doing just as much as the juvies, but if we wait till she's 13 to go to sectionals...she might stay injury free as much as possible... there are two 11 year olds we know (90 lbs, and 97 lbs) that are landing triple sal and triple toes, but...they never got to sectionals this year. Why? injury. 1 is getting cortisone shots and the other is hanging up her skates.

So, our thought is if she stays relatively safe till she grows some, and builds some more muscle to handle it, then maybe she gets her chance.
we hope she does get it, we are mindful of everyone telling us how she should be going as time is passing her by...

In the meantime, she spends time developing those ballet fingers and has created a couple of cute moves sort of hydroblading, and is working hard on her combination spins...she is doing lovely camel-sit-change-sits...and is working on a camel-layback spin which turns into one that she pulls her leg up behind her....

sometimes the double lutz gets away from her but we also monitor the amount of time each training session she gets to work on doubles and combos...

she doesn't like it, but we make her spend time on stroking, and a friend introduced her to a couple of figure 8 patterns she works on...

Though everyone is telling us to go pairs.....grin....as I say, we shall see...

[adrianchew]

Don't stab me for saying this - but at least in the US - competitive ladies in Novice around age 12-13 who have a hope for the future typically have at least a 2-axel, a 3-toe and a 3-sal pretty consistent. The ones with more potential maybe have another a third triple.

A competitive (at US Nationals) program for a Novice would be a 3/2 combo, 2-axel and required double jump for the short program. For the long program, a good Novice long program would see 4 triple jumps.

The youngest competitor I believe at US Eastern Sectionals this year (didn't qualify this year for Nationals) is age 11, has 3-sal, 3-toe, 2-axel, is a tiny tiny little thing, has been skating since really young I believe.

At Regionals, for Intermediates (level below Novice in the US) you are typically looking for the skaters that have a triple or two, and a 2-axel as the standouts to qualify for US Junior Nationals. We are probably around ages 10-12 here.

So the age rush is definitely on... and there aren't very many that make it that didn't start early on. Sarah Hughes was age 13 when she first made the scene as a Junior. Sasha Cohen was age 13 (technically she would have been 14 that year but much later in the year) as a Novice at US Nationals. I forget when but wasn't Michelle Kwan already a senior at age 13? Not sure when Tara first hit the scene big at US Nationals but she was young too.

Nationals/at least Novice/by age 13 seems to be a formula... of course there are bodies that break and fall by the wayside. Its risky, but that seems to be what produces results.

[JD]

thanks Adrian....and no, no stabbing here...grin.. can you check to see who the tiny, tiny skater is you mentioned, I'd be interested in comparing size....grin, I should really post a photo of mine, if only I wasn't worried about security issues ...

Thanks for the info on US, now I'll add some if you are curious....grin

In Canada... pre-novices here are doing the 3-jumps, the jump for the most part in pre-novice and even novice that still sets them apart-so says our section's skater development co-ordinator,--is still the double axel, and alot of the triples are cheated. [this is just what I have heard re this year's sectionals, so someone who actually skates it can enlighten me] The really big jump here is supposedly jr, where to be competitive you had better have 7 triples and at least 1 triple-triple...

Since pre-novice here lifts the age requirements, as in-juveniles are 12 and under, then pre-novice, then novice, it will depend for us on what her body is capable of doing. And most of the pre and novice, despite the "baby ballerina" tag, are at least 1 foot taller and nearly twice her weight size....

Last year Canadian juvenile champion landed 2 double axels and I don't remember how many double-doubles to win...

As I have been instructed, there is substantially little difference between pre and novice, because both levels are upping the ante. And when many drop out for the injuries, as they are here, the theory is that she will be the healthier for it....and perhaps more competitive....

Does it mean she'll never try the jumps? No....but we'll let her body lead the way,....we don't really worry about jumps other than injury , she picks them up perhaps too fast.

So here is us...grin

She has come along very quickly even just this year alone, and in particular in the last 4 months since she was accepted to, and now skates 1 day a week away from home at a training centre. [we take her there]..she now has all double-double combos consistent...they are quite surprised at her learning speed...

she's 45 lbs to be exact-[ in a baby size 13 skate with custom lifts to make them fit-]....and although her double lutz gets away from her, she is now capable of doing a double flip, falling leaf or loop, double toe, and has, by fooling around, added a double loop right after that, with falling leaf I mean...then again, the double loop is a favorite jump.

But then again, we make sure she does lots of stretching and hip abductor exercises to stay fit and injury free...

Our concern is really more about the impact of the "land" on the double axel"...it isn't what I would call soft....it might be techique, but we aren't inclined to think so. And she is very strong....

When she has done it-she does in fact land it-clean leg, no rotation troubles on this one-her ankle hurts afterwards, and we know its not psychological-we see the stress in her veins, ....hence, we are working on stronger ankles...since the kinesiologist has indicated when watching her [he is on staff at her training centre]...that he suspects that it isn't so much strength she lacks as it is physical size to handle the impact quite yet. He said it is not the same as a double-double sequence, no matter how many are done, its just a different type of land at the end...And more padding in the boots will not help, merely throw her off balance...or worse, break her ankle on the other jumps...because she isn't breaking the boots down at all....

You might be interested to know that the director of training centre said they have never had such a tiny skater and he decided to consult with a coach at a training centre in the Michigan area- so we went to Detroit in Oct... who has some tiny skaters, and coach had I think a juvenile pairs team,?? and after he watched my daughter in action, agreed that it was now a waiting game.

He said since she is still age eligible next year still for sectionals, to try and go then, even if she isn't capable of the double axel strength wise, just so she can have the experience. And if all her other stuff is of really quality, she may do very well without any triple or even a double axel. He said her nice presentation could be key....

He also told us that her weight size is unusual, even for a skater. When you see someone who looks tiny, he said it isn't always that they are light too, they are just physically small.

Ours is apparently set apart by not just having a very petite structure but she also has light bones, [whatever he meant by that] and a very lean muscular structure- and that this is why she is so light....hence, a 45 lb child, and 3'7..

He compared this to some of his-the Michigan's coach's students, his were around the 57-60 lb mark...still light, he felt, for a 10 year old, but more normal even in the skating world. And that sometimes that extra weight can make a positive difference, depending on the physical attributes of the child. His perspective was that even if she grew a whole foot during puberty, she would still only end up 4'7.

She has, for the past three years that she's been skating, gained an average of only 1-2 lbs per year.

At 14, Tara Lipinksi was 80 lbs and 4'9 we're told...so, unless mine does some major growing....which we know from medicals won't happen drastically...grin

And we are willing to take some risk....but we're not going to put her on the line to do something we know will cause a lasting injury....Tara comes too readily to mind...

This is why everyone is telling us to go pairs....as I tell everyone, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it....

As I say, I just hope we're doing whats right....because it is a struggle every day to stick to the plan and hope it works out in the end...I don't want to have any regrets, but I don't want her to either....perhaps next year we'll go to sectionals if for no other reason than the experience....

At least now, you've got me thinking....again.....:) ;)

[adrianchew]

JD - I can't find the details to share with you - info isn't readily available. Given what you've shared with us though - it does seem like your daugther is TINY in comparison to even small sized skaters.

The skater I was talking about doesn't have the nicest triples (cheated) and really strange technique on her 2-axel.

So I agree, wait, don't rush! Though you might want to think about entering her into competitions still (not hold back on this)... not with the intention of winning anything, but just for the experience. :?:

And I think those reports of 7 triples and 3/3 combo for Junior ranks is a little exagerrated... I would look at 5 triples landed and 3/2 combos being a good benchmark to aim for a medal at Nationals in the US.

[JD]

Adrian...thanks so much....smile....

yes, she definately is little...runs in father's side of the family...

I can't remember who said the Jrs. jump combos required, but I think it was Lauren Wilson someone was telling me landed all this and that it was the new benchmark...

on another note, has anyone heard if Yagudin is still planning to tour with CSOI due to his hip problem??? since tickets go on sale Nov 30, I am just curious....


Cheers all....

[randomskater]

JD- Lauren Wilson, at Junior Worlds landed 7 clean triples- 4 were in series. She currently works on triple triple combos but hasn't put them in her programs yet. However, Joannie Rochette can apparently land a quad toe at full speed! according to my coach!

[randomskater]

Jd- also about sectionals this year. My coach took notes on how many *clean* double axels or triples were landed in prenovice and novice. Only 3 kids had a clean axel, and one a clean triple in prenovice. In novice, i think 8 had a clean axel and only ONE! had a clean triple.
This was at teh WOS sectionals.

Also, have you considered harness work?

[JD]

randomskater....yes, she's has harness lessons, both portable and stationary from the harness coach at the training centre-she lands her 2axel clean in it ...however,after the impact problem, now once she does the leg unwrap, -sorry I'm not a skater, its the part where they put the foot down to land, with other leg back, he sets her down very gently so that her ankle doesn't hurt....otherwise, it does...

Since it is the injury component we become concerned about...to have her land it cleanly and consistently by herself might either cause a hip injury from the impact of the fall...or worse, a broken ankle from the impact..

we just think its better to wait....no need to rush ...so even in the harness we put our foot down about how often she is allowed to do a 2axel, [not often,grin-we find it also causes havoc with the 1axel-overrotation] and she is also timed each session by us or by coach on the amount of time allowed to spend working on 2x combos....

there is more to skating than jumps... (JMHO)...speed, flow, stroking and turns are just as important..oh, and spins too...

I know some of the other coaches think we are control freaks. but our own coaches live with it, understanding that we want what is best for her, nurturing health, safety and a love for the sport...and we think she will be the healthier and more complete skater for it...

We've seen Joannie Rochette skate, and she is a beautiful young jumping machine...very strong legs, great power....also Signe Ronka has beautiful technique...

interesting note on WOS sectionals....I'll have to pay attention...

[JD]

giggle...as I and I think someone else in this thread said before, ---just because you can, does not mean that you should....we think certain jumps fit that criteria....grin....so, its sticking to the 1axel for now...

[hoptoad]

JD, good for you for putting your daughter's long term health ahead of immediate results!

I was wondering what it might mean to have "light bones." If she's light even for her size, it might be worth checking into whether her bone density is developing properly. I don't know how it's supposed to work, but maybe her body is not absorbing and using calcium or other nutrients optimally. On the other hand, someone has to be in that outlying 1/2 percent of the population and it may be your daughter!

On a similar note, what happened to the skater's dad who was also putting limits on his daughter's jumping? It may have been more than a year ago, but he posted about counting the number of triple jumps and falls kids were attempting at their rink and he came up with some mind-boggling numbers on how many falls a week, month, etc. some of the kids were taking. I seem to remember that he was limiting his skater's triple jumps attempts to five or so of each different triple per day, and focusing on quality technique rather than tons of unsupervised repetition.

Where are you rink dad, and how's it going?

[JD]

hi hoptoad....

yes, bone density tests and a bone aging was done on her, twice now... she's just in the low range...

Actually on calcium, I've never seen a child who dislikes plain milk so much...so she drinks a lot of milkshakes-homemade, and cheese cubes and ice cream and yogourt to get the calcium in her...

my mother says she gets that from me...[I despise milk unless its in coffee]

Interestingly, this same child loves plain yogourt....yuck...

[hoptoad]

JD, I'm glad you've checked her bone density. Actually, it sounds like you've checked into every possible angle, and it's as you've said, just a matter of waiting. Good luck!

[randomskater]

I think that you are doing the right thing! If she works on her triples in the harness, she still gets to practise correct technique, so when the time comes for her to do it on her own, she can!
theres a girl i skate with that is about the size of an average 8 year old, ithink shes about 11 or 12, shes gota clean axel and sal. The only difference with her is she is pure muscle!

[meli]

I'm glad to hear a skating parent who is knowledgeable enough to say their child may not be physically ready to do some things and drawing the line.

What amazes me is that overdevelopment injuries are nothing new but it's almost like older skaters aren't passing that along or coaches and officials are ignoring the advice. I'm equally surprised that the injury we're hearing about with young skaters is a hip problem and not Jumper's Knee (Brian Boitano suffered from this as a kid--overpracticing jumping caused his leg muscles to overdevelop for his bone structure and his kneecap cracked into several pieces. He wasn't allowed on skates for 6 months until the cracks healed, and then couldn't jump for another 3 months to make sure everything set properly).

[missmarysgarden]

JD, it sounds like you are working with your doctor to evaluate her physical development, and make appropriate modifications to the pace of her trainging. Would that coaches would care so much!!

Re: calcium. Is your doctor knowledgeable re: nutrition? Most MDs have a total of one hour of training in nutrition in medical school, so even if they care very much, they often are unable to prescribe proper nutrition.

"Light bones" usually refers to "low bone density". I am assuming that she has had bone scans. While it is important to be sure that there is adequate calcium in your daughter's diet, often the problem is not with the intake of calcium, it is with the absorption. It might be a good thing to have evaluated at some point.

I know what you mean by a surprising "light" child. I have a granddaughter who is much like that. Her mother is 5'1"; her father is 6'6". My daughter has a "light frame", i.e., very small rib cage, tiny fingers, etc., but her bones are quite dense - just small. Her working weight is around 100 pounds (at 35 years of age) and she looks healthy and robust. It is a good weight for her. She is very athletic, and always has been. She was a Class I gymnast (now called Level 10) at age 9 - one step below Elite level. She burned out of gymnastics around age 13, and took up skiing. She was a great slalom skier.

Her father is of that "spidery" body type - very slim, long arms, long legs, long torso, long fingers, etc. He is also very athletic - a fly-in white powder skier among other things. My granddaughter has his length, and her mother's tiny frame (little rib cage, etc.). She is almost 3 and weighs 26 pounds. She has chubby cheeks, and is strong and healthy. But every time I pick her up, I almost throw her over my shoulder because she weighs about half of what she looks like she should. Her bone density tests are normal - she is just a different body type. My daughter has decided to nix all high impact sports for her at any competitive training level. But she has already started ski school, and has all the natural ability one would expect from two athletic parents. If it does turn out at some time that skating is not the best sport for your daughter's future health, the natural qualities of athleticism - balance, fitness, guickness, focus, cardiovascular soundness, and dedication - transfer easily from one sport to another.

[JD]

haven't checked here in awhile!!!

Missmary, thanks for your tips....