ISU New Judging Regs

[melanieuk]

www.isu.org/news/1160.pdf

can you see this link?
If not go to www.isu.org/news/comcur.html and click on the top message Communication No 1160.

Makes for very interesting reading about the new judging system.

[i:10f6de785a]Title edited to remove all caps.[/i:10f6de785a]

[Aussie Willy]

Looks like they are half way there to getting rid of the compulsory dances. It has now been reduced to one for the Seniors although the Juniors still have to do two.

I don't know if this is such a good idea. I think having two dances is good for giving dancers who are not strong in one particular dance to make it up in dance that might be better for them.

[Xiaoxue]

But are these only proposals at this point? They have not yet been finalized and made official? Is that why they're called "Urgent Proposals?"

[Aaron W]

I know many dancers would prefer to get rid of the CDs because of all the repetitions and time it takes to get them perfected which in turn leads to less time that can be spent on the OD & FD. However, I'd prefer the CDs stay. I like the discipline it requires and feel that it keeps the dancers from becoming overly "showy" in their skating, i.e. less in the way of substance to their skating. You see so little dancing anymore that it (along with the OD to a lesser degree) helps to keep ice dancing what it's supposed to be.... dancing. Just like the elimination of figures moved "figure" skating away from basics and more towards jumping, I fear an eventual elimination of the CDs will lead to more tricks and less substance & quality in the dance discipline.

Of course one could argue that getting rid of the CDs would give dancers more time to work on more difficulty in their programs, but I just can't help but feel overall quality would decrease.

[Aussie Willy]

I actually don't think the dancers would like to see the CDs go. I know they probably find them annoying and take lots of time to practise, but they are the basis for ice dancing and they do help set the standard and show technical excellence and in this climate of corrupt judging I think they need them more than ever.

I still remember T&D from 84 with their Westminster, Paso and Rhumba. My concern with the CDs this day is that no one has ever reached that standard of CDs again, with the exception of K&P and U&Z.

What do people think about skaters nominating their elements which is another proposal? I think that is very interesting and I don't mind that. It is similar to what the divers and gymnasts do.

[melanieuk]

Yes, they're urgent proposals, but surely they will have to conform to this?

Where are you seeing the proposal to cease Compulsories?
I'm reading that they propose ONE CD instead of two. :?:

Oops just read what you said: "halfway" there. Yes, indeed.

[Scott]

CDs are important to ice dancing. I really thisnk it would be a mistake to see them go. Ice dancing is unique in that the CDs realy allow the judges to see how the skaters handle the actual skating without being able to cover faults with flashy elements. I know that the CD's are repetitive but that is the name of this game. Keep them in.

[IgglesII]

This makes an interesting point about this new judging system proposal...it's on Sandra Loosemore's site.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/

Anyone who's on the SkateFans mailing list, you've already read it.

[loveskating]

I disagree that the problem is the ethics and morals of the judges...the only extent to which I could agree with that is that this is so with respect to SOME of the judges at SOME times.

We have seen so often in many spheres of our socieity that merely "policing" a problem makes things far worse while systematic changes which render corruption more difficult or impossible actually work and are even cost effective.

I think the problem is in the system...so I support system changes in choosing judges; marks, the marking system etc. and proposals to avoid conflicts of interest regarding the federations.

With regard to federations, I believe that BALANCING power is the only solution to bureaucracy and entrenched corrupt people who will do anything to further thier own personal interests.

[Emilieanne]

Unfortunately, there are a few individuals in the officials community at the international level who are obviously more interested in their own political perks than they are in doing the right thing for the sport or for the skaters :x. Those people give us all a bad rap.

Because of those few, clear ethical standards for officials do need to be put in place and vigorously enforced along with severe consequences for misbehavior. Such standards are in place for athletes; what happened in Salt Lake clearly proves that such standards need to be in place for officials. There is no need to change the scoring system until these measures are put in place...if after these standards are in place AND are being adhered to and further changes are needed...then would be the time to deal with that. :!:

One of the proposals the USFSA is putting forth is a life-time ban for officials who engage in officiating misbehavior. Skate Canada has joined the USFSA in supporting this measure and takes it further. Skate Canada is proposing that federation presidents be rendered ineligible to sit on the ISU council or any ISU committee along with being ineligible to judge/referee any international competitions while serving as federation president...shame this measure does not, in its present form, extend to the spouse of the sitting president. Both these measures are worthy of everyone's support and will go a long way toward solving the problems. 8). So...let your federations AND their commercial sponsors know that you support these important proposals. The ISU Congress is coming soon :!:

[gandalf]

ITA with everything Aaron said.

[IgglesII]

I would be absolutely shocked to see the ISU Congress act on anything that has to do with ethics, morals, who can sit on what committee, lifetime bans, etc. They want an easy way out, and their fearless leader, Speedy, is giving them one. Institute his horribly flawed new judging system. Backed by the prez of the IOC.

I'm starting to wonder is the USFSA and SkateCanada have any pull whatsoever within the ISU.

[¤Sweetie¤]

The one compulsory dance idea should be good for B&K. One of the main reasons Shae-Lynn wasn't sure about staying eligible waqs because she wasn't sure she wanted to practice the compulsory dances.


But I agree :), taking away the CD's isn't necessary

[Ellyn]

[quote:c085400fae]Urgent Proposal No. 44
Ice Dance Technical Committee
Rule 539, paragraph 2
Amend as follows:
2.
b) For ISU Senior Championships, two Compulsory dances of the 4 announced annually shall be selected by the
IDTC for both the Four Continents and European Championships and two dances out of the remaining two
dances - for the World Championships.
One Compulsory dance to be skated shall be drawn and announced before the first official practice from two
dances selected for the respective Championships.[/quote:c085400fae]

Doesn't look as though they would get much of a breakin terms of how many CDs to practice at home, just after they get to the actual competitions.

[Aussie Willy]

Having printed the document off and taken it home and read it, I really worry about the accountability factor. They have said that there will be no post competition meetings, only one post season meeting. Also there is going to be no revelation of who the judges that are giving the marks, even when the season is over. It all seems a bit underhanded and I think ISU trying to be even less accountable than what it already is and just trying to keep everything in-house.

I think Sandra Loosemore was fully justified in her criticisim of it.

[quark]

[quote:8777bcd03e="Aussie Willy"]I actually don't think the dancers would like to see the CDs go. I know they probably find them annoying and take lots of time to practise, but they are the basis for ice dancing and they do help set the standard and show technical excellence and in this climate of corrupt judging I think they need them more than ever.
[/quote:8777bcd03e]

I don't agree. The dancers I know consider them a waste of very valuable time, energy, and money. They're not the basis of ice dancing any more than figures were the basis of singles. Sure, there may be a few dance teams who specialize in CDs because they're good at them or love them, but I doubt they are the overall top teams. There are other ways to gain the skill set needed for dance ODs and FDs, without the CDs. They do nothing but create more room for messin' around with the overall scores. The public can't judge them any more than they could judge figures. The only difference is that the judges seem to place dance teams in line with where their OD or FD is going to be. So why bother? Dance is much more expensive than any other skating discipline. Make dance the same as the other skating disciplines. I say DROP THE CDs!

[Aussie Willy]

Quark - I am interested to know if you are an ice dancer yourself.

I learn ice dancing and the compulsory dances are the basis for ice dancing. All dancers when they start ice dancing do the compulsories, whether they are simple from the Dutch Waltz to the more advanced dances. At a senior level they do give the judges a chance to compare couples doing the same element. I think there are more problems with the politics and judging of dance rather than the compulsories themselves.

Also speaking to dance coaches at my rink they think it would be ridiculous to get rid of the compulsories. They have all competed themselves and think they are very important.

I attended the Worlds in 98 and found it very interesting to watch the compulsories. The golden waltz got a bit boring to watch but I found as an audience member I was really evaluating what the skaters were doing and I found it very educational seeing dance of that high level which I had not been exposed to before. But I also found I was in line with the judges from what I was watching, except the top 2 or 3 skaters which was where it became obvious that politics came into play in the placements. That was really disappointing.

Maybe I am an exception to the rule. I actually really enjoy watching compulsories dances because I enjoy the dances themselves.

[quark]

[quote:e3458e3a00="Aussie Willy"]Quark - I am interested to know if you are an ice dancer yourself.

I learn ice dancing and the compulsory dances are the basis for ice dancing. All dancers when they start ice dancing do the compulsories, whether they are simple from the Dutch Waltz to the more advanced dances. At a senior level they do give the judges a chance to compare couples doing the same element. I think there are more problems with the politics and judging of dance rather than the compulsories themselves.

Also speaking to dance coaches at my rink they think it would be ridiculous to get rid of the compulsories. They have all competed themselves and think they are very important.
.

Maybe I am an exception to the rule. I actually really enjoy watching compulsories dances because I enjoy the dances themselves.[/quote:e3458e3a00]

No, I'm not an ice dancer. Frankly, I'm in awe of anyone who gets on a sheet of ice with only narrow edges on their feet! However, I know the personal viewpoints of a number of elite ice dance teams in the USA, both Senior and Junior, and I can assure you they would just as soon do without the CDs. I'm not surprised your coaches don't agree. After all, they make money teaching a useless discipline like CDs, just like figures coaches and judges didn't agree with the decision to eliminate figures.

I also don't mean to reduce your love of CDs. I only contend that the top teams in the world of ice dancing would just as soon eliminate this part of ice dance, regardless of what your coaches believe. Why don't you start a thread on this subject and see what fans think?????

[Snowflake3939]

I would be really sorry to see the importance of CD's diminish. It's the only chance in Ice Dance to see apples compared to apples! Of course there is the exception of the view of "some" judges when it comes to CD's. They still think they're comparing apples to oranges!

[jasmine]

Taking away the CDs from international competition would be like building a new house on flat land without any foundations. On superficial inspection it looks OK, but the first heavy rain and it starts sinking into the mud.

[Aussie Willy]

[quote="quark"][quote:57b37fab2c="Aussie Willy"]
I'm not surprised your coaches don't agree. After all, they make money teaching a useless discipline like CDs, just like figures coaches and judges didn't agree with the decision to eliminate figures.
[/quote:57b37fab2c]

Quark - I am offended by this comment. The dance coaches at my rink have full time jobs and do not need to make money from the sport. They actually do coach because they love skating. We don't have any ice dancers at our rink who are aiming for competition. I don't do tests or anything like that - I just enjoy ice dancing and I enjoy the compulsories and they are basis of my ice dancing lessons. Also because money can be tight my coach understands if I can't afford a lesson so she is definately not doing it for the money.

You obviously have no knowledge of the basis of ice dancing or you would not be making the comments that you are.

To also add another point: I learn the cello. To be able to play this instrument I need to practise scales and technical exercises. It may not be the most fun but it crucial to develop the skills I need to play the instrument.

[quark]

[quote="Aussie Willy"][quote:14162b7a57="quark"][quote:14162b7a57="Aussie Willy"]
I'm not surprised your coaches don't agree. After all, they make money teaching a useless discipline like CDs, just like figures coaches and judges didn't agree with the decision to eliminate figures.
[/quote:14162b7a57]

Quark - I am offended by this comment. The dance coaches at my rink have full time jobs and do not need to make money from the sport. They actually do coach because they love skating. We don't have any ice dancers at our rink who are aiming for competition. I don't do tests or anything like that - I just enjoy ice dancing and I enjoy the compulsories and they are basis of my ice dancing lessons. Also because money can be tight my coach understands if I can't afford a lesson so she is definately not doing it for the money.

You obviously have no knowledge of the basis of ice dancing or you would not be making the comments that you are.

To also add another point: I learn the cello. To be able to play this instrument I need to practise scales and technical exercises. It may not be the most fun but it crucial to develop the skills I need to play the instrument.[/quote:14162b7a57]
Why should you be offended? My accusation applies to some coaches of ice dancing, not students. Coaches should be able to defend their own position on the value of CD competitions, provided they have to actually earn their living at coaching. But you, your coaches, and ice dancers at your rink don't live in the real world of international ice dance competition. It sounds like you guys can afford the luxury of ice dancing, just because it's fun. Most elite international competitors I know must work 6 hours or more each day just for the privilege of trying to reach the highest competitive level. Can you afford the time and money to do that? I've never even met a coach who has another "full time job". The job of the coaches I know is to teach ice dance, and they do everything they can to make sure their teams win competitions. If they don't, they'll lose those teams to another high level coach. The ice dance program you've described at your rink is just not at this level. It's wonderful that your coach is "not doing it for the money". No ice dance coach I know has that freedom.

Relative to the basis of ice dance, I suggest that you also have to factor in the cost of support. Ask the parents of an elite ice dancer how much it costs. It's not uncommon for them to pay over $25,000 USD each year. If it's not paid, there is no coaching. Or ice time, or costumes, or international travel. In the harsh world of competition, that's as much a basis for ice dance as technical requirements. Without the ability to pay, you stop progressing just as fast as you would if you can't do a twizzle.

The best ice dance coaches I know don't use CDs to teach dance. They only teach them because they're part of the competitive system. Edges, stroking, body control, and timing are all taught by other methods. Although they may have value for some students, my point is that they shouldn't be part of judged competitions. You play the cello. I too, have played an instrument. How many music competitions have a part that judges musicians on just playing scales, holding a tone, or how well each person plays a common technical exercise? Please give me the performance of a chosen musical piece with original choreography to show the skill of an ice dancer, not a CD. The inability of the general public to know who's winning at CDs is the same reason why figures were dropped from singles competitions. The same thing should happen with CDs.

[jasmine]

Quark,

You are focussing excusively on the amount of time and money put into the sport by international level skaters.

(a) you fail to understand how they got there in the first place (ten years of practising compulsory dances and novice, junior, senior, level)

(b) most of the money spent actually goes on choreography for the free dance and original dance. this takes forever and is extremely expensive.

(c) why does SLB (for example) not want to practise the compulsory dances? Because she (for example) might be shown up by a younger, fitter, fresher, youngster in side by side comparison?

(d) the reason that the public do not understand the compulsory dances is because the tv commentators do not take the trouble to explain or present them properly. All they (the commentators) need to do is run slowly through an example of the dance, pointing out the technical difficulties at each point. This would make the following competition much more rewarding for the average person to watch. I knew nothing whatsoever about curling, but when the Scottish ladies team began to have success at the Olympics, I (along with much of the UK) took the trouble to learn the basics in order to appreciate the game.

(e) A lot of non-skaters I know have no idea of the techical difficulties in free-skating. They think all the jumps are the same. They are more impressed by a nice high waltz jump with a toothy smile, than they are by a double axel. They have no idea that there are six years of hard effort and training and expense between these jumps. But that doesn't mean that the ISU are going to dump the jumps.

(f) the foundation of ice dancing was in the social couple dancing of the twenties and thirties. This is an international common meeting place for ice-dancers of all ages, standards and nationalities. If the CDs were dropped, this would disappear.

(g) if SLB (for example) wants to stop doing the CDs, then fine; there are plenty of pro competitions for ageing icedancers (not necessarily SLB) were she can show off her free-dance abilities.

[Aussie Willy]

[quote:9f5839043e="quark"] My accusation applies to some coaches of ice dancing, not students. Coaches should be able to defend their own position on the value of CD competitions, provided they have to actually earn their living at coaching. But you, your coaches, and ice dancers at your rink don't live in the real world of international ice dance competition. [/quote:9f5839043e]

The coaches I know have all competed at senior level, achieved the highest levels of tests and one coach even competed at world level. And they still think the compulsories are crucial to the foundation of ice dancing and still have a relevant place in ice dance competition. So whether they have day jobs or not - they have been there and done that and have many years experience.

As for international ice dancers saying they want to see CDs go, Winkler/Lohse are quoted on their website as saying they think they are important to ice dancing and they do set a technical standard. You can check the question/answer part of their website.

Blahblahblah - thank you for you very relevant points.

[Shae & Vic Forever]

[quote:b5fc164c26="blahblahblah"](c) why does SLB (for example) not want to practise the compulsory dances? Because she (for example) might be shown up by a younger, fitter, fresher, youngster in side by side comparison?
(g) if SLB (for example) wants to stop doing the CDs, then fine; there are plenty of pro competitions for ageing icedancers (not necessarily SLB) were she can show off her free-dance abilities.[/quote:b5fc164c26]

Shae Lynn may not want to do them becuase she's never liked compulsory dancers. I'm sure she's not the only ice dancer out there who does not particularly enjoy compulsories. I know I don't enjoy practicing them. Neither do a lot of people I skate with.