What Can Figure Skating Learn from Football?

[tweetybird]

I don’t know very much about football, although I can spot a tight end when I see one (oops – did I say that?).

In football, when the referee makes a call, he stands up and justifies his decision to the world at large.

Now, could you imagine a figure skating judge having to do that: I gave a .4 deduction to sally because she did not do steps into her triple loop; sue did not do the triple loop out of steps either, but I only gave her a .1 deduction and I made it up in the presentation mark, because I really want to see her win a metal, she skates for a club that I am affiliated with and her coach is a good friend of mine. :oops:

[Madame Saccoche]

Yeah but in football the referee is surrounded by 300 lb refidgerators...he'll be field pizza if he makes a wrong call. how much dammge can a 90 lb skater inflict?:lol:

[Chitta]

...the "powers that be" could attain a measure of conscience and sense of humanity to spur them to "do the right thing" by truly providing such a requirement of responsibility & accountability for judges' scores. As you suggest, it really wouldn't be such a major undertaking or difficult process at all to implement.

Sadly, they seem still all too invested in their longstanding power, control, to somewhat sway or manipulate certain events just enough to sometimes render a desired(biased) outcome favorable to certain special interests. And likely, 'til there's significantly more "sense of outrage" by the preponderance of skating enthusiasts, things will pretty much stay the same indefinitely.

[AxelAnnie22]

The most important thing Figure Skating can learn from football is: LIVE BROADCAST!!

[Chitta]

Unfortunately, it seems the demographics for the television viewing audience doesn't make it either practical nor feasible for the networks to have incentive to carry live broadcasts 'til occasionally during an Olympics.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Chitta
Unfortunately, it seems the demographics for the television viewing audience doesn't make it either practical nor feasible for the networks to have incentive to carry live broadcasts 'til occasionally during an Olympics. It is not even live during the OLYS. How about same delay tape delay!

[adrianchew]

Moved to where it belongs. ~adrianchew~

[somechick]

NFL refs are paid. NFL refs are not hired by each individual team, they are hired by the NFL. I think this is a huge lesson the ISU could learn form football. Judges have always been required to justify marks--that hasn't stopped them from cheating. When saying that they knew so and so would be and should be first as justification and that is accepted, well, that tells me more needs to be done than just that.

[Chitta]

AA22, it was mostly surreal for me (being such an avid Michelle fan), but was not the ladies free skate shown live? If not, I cannot imagine how NBC could possibly explain its' not, as oftentimes when it's overseas (i.e. last summer games in Australia and whenever they're in Europe) the differing time zones and most Americans being either asleep or at work is offered as an explanation/excuse.

Somechick, it seems implementing some system requiring justification, accountability, responsibility for judges' scores is the only real hope for any true credibility in the sport. Given the chance, such a system at least could/would reveal/expose any judges with a particularly non-sensical/illogical(near insane) pattern of marks. For instance such extremes as giving a particular skater 4th & 5th place ordinals while all the other judges are giving 1st place ordinals (as was the case for Michelle at the recent Campbell's competition). Such a pattern of inexplicably or unreasonably doing so on more than two occasions ("three strikes you're out" comes to figureskating, ;)) would render/mean a lifelong expulsion for said judge(s).

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Chitta

For instance such extremes as giving a particular skater 4th & 5th place ordinals while all the other judges are giving 1st place ordinals (as was the case for Michelle at the recent Campbell's competition).

The judges could justify that placement - and perhaps the judges who gave the 1st place ordinals were being "extra kind" - there is some accountability in judges meetings and proceedings that takes place after events, but a five judge panel just can't be taken seriously. A minimum of seven is really required for the system to work.

Most people don't fully understand the judging process - even post Salt Lake City - most casual fans probably never will get involved enough to know or learn or care... typical fan perfers what is pleasing to their eyes or their favorites to win all the time.

Penalizing the 'deviants' in judging might catch some bad judges, it might also penalize some good judges in the process who mark what they see. There is no easy answer to be had.

[KathySkates]

Originally posted by Madame Saccoche
Yeah but in football the referee is surrounded by 300 lb refidgerators...he'll be field pizza if he makes a wrong call. how much dammge can a 90 lb skater inflict?:lol:

What can FS learn from football? What a fun question!

LOL! I doubt that many NFL officials would be able to hold their own on a rowdy freestyle session a week before regionals! It can get pretty fierce out there and one 90 pound little cutie can be quite a "force to be reckoned with"!
Also don't forget that each petite angel comes complete with a mother, father, coach, choreographer....
I'd take on a "Fridge" over a skater any day!

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Chitta
AA22, it was mostly surreal for me (being such an avid Michelle fan), but was not the ladies free skate shown live? If not, I cannot imagine how NBC could possibly explain its' not, as oftentimes when it's overseas (i.e. last summer games in Australia and whenever they're in Europe) the differing time zones and most Americans being either asleep or at work is offered as an explanation/excuse.

I live in tape-delayed California. The OLYS were broadcast live in some parts of the country (East of something or other) but were tape delayed here (as were WORLDS when they were even held in my time zone!)I haven't a clue how the networks justify it.

I was lucky enough to have access to the East Coast NBC feed (which I paid for for the Olympics), so I was able to enjoy it live!

[icedtea]

I love this question! What our sport can learn from football?

~That it's not a good idea to dump Gatorade on the coaches when they win, (although Mishin or Moscvina's reaction would indeed be priceless. Wet fur smells.)
~Helmets can be a good thing, when properly coordinated with the costume and covered tastefully with allusion fabric of course.
~Never ever have a half-time show with Michael Jackson and fireworks.

[Chitta]

quote:
_________________________________________________
[/i]Originally posted by adrianchew
[/q]The judges could justify that placement - and perhaps the judges who gave the 1st place ordinals were being "extra kind" - there is some accountability in judges meetings and proceedings that takes place after events, but a five judge panel just can't be taken seriously. A minimum of seven is really required for the system to work.

Most people don't fully understand the judging process - even post Salt Lake City - most casual fans probably never will get involved enough to know or learn or care... typical fan perfers what is pleasing to their eyes or their favorites to win all the time.

Penalizing the 'deviants' in judging might catch some bad judges, it might also penalize some good judges in the process who mark what they see. There is no easy answer to be had]
__________________________________________________

While there may not be any easy answers, we must not metaphorically merely "wring our collective hands" and pretend as if we're dealing with some convoluted astrophysics or rocket-science dilemma.

As the thread's originator seemed to intimate, while we all know and recognize that figureskating has a subjective component to it and cannot, unfortunately for fans, be as cut-and-dry (objective) as football and most other sports - at the same time this is no reason to try to justify and excuse instances of illogical, nonsensical, and rather unreasonable patterns usually demonstrating or indicative of some possible underlying bias.

It was already a bit suspect previously when, unlike most other sports, the judges didn't have to explain or justify their scores to the fans, but at least one knew who had rendered what marks. Now, although it may undercut/inhibit somewhat any possible collusion or "voting bloc" arrangments; for the fans (and even moreso, the athletes) it's become even more exasperating and exacerbated by not "having a clue" as to who might've meted out some totally outrageous marks, giving a complete cloak for the judges to hide behind.

Now, for the technical component there should be "pretty much" a uniform consensus, as there are supposedly specific deductions & allowances for certain variables. And while the presentation/artistic component leaves more leeway for subjectivity, there still ought/need to be some reasonable "rhyme or reason" to any judge's marks, even the occasonal "deviant." And if there happens to be any consistent pattern of this "deviancy," something really begins to seem suspect; and rather than being a case of being "extra kind," it could very well be the obverse opprobrious case of attempting to skew a given competition towards a particular skater.

Whether five judges, seven, or ten - these aberrations need to be closely monitored, as - "truly impartial" human eyes should at least give fans the distinct impression that they were fairly much observing/evaluating one and the same performance. Is this really asking or expecting too much? I, and I'm sure most fans, think DEFINITELY NOT. And for the credibility & integrity of the sport, the "powers that be" ought in "good faith and conscience" DELIVER IT - removing an ever-looming taint and cloud from such a lovely sport.

[missmarysgarden]

It seems strange to me that judges are somewhat immune from having to justify their scores. In gymnastics, every coach has the right to submit an inquiry form - in Level 3 Compulsories (rank beginners) through International Elite competition. The form has specific questions that coaches can ask and judges must respond - what skills got credit, what combinations got credit, was bonus awarded (won't go into the complicated system of awarding bonus), were there any unusual circumstances resulting in deductions, what were the execution deductions, what were the presentation deductions. Each judge's score and specific deductions must appear on the form. When the system was put into effect, judges feared the system would be abused and that competitions would last for hours!!! while scores were reviewed. It didn't happen. Typically, when I am Chief Judge, I process 3-5 inquiries a meet. An inquiry is handled in a conference, scores are verified and recomputed, so an inquiry can result in a score being lowered, staying the same, or being raised. All inquiries must be made within 15 minutes of the rotation under question. Gymnastics judges have a much more complex shorthand system, and all deductions and decisions regarding credit for a skill, must be made sequentially as the program happens with the exception of overall deductions for lack of elegance, maturity, body positions. The system holds judges responsible, and makes all of us better judges. While judges don't have to agree (remember, in gymnastics, scores are averaged), they definitely have to be specific as to the reason a skill was not ratified. And if a judge on the panel makes a mistake, a conference sometimes highlights that error, which is fair to the athlete. Consistency is also tracked - e.g., if a judge is consistently higher on certain athletes (as in nationalism), she may be yellow carded (given a warning), and if it continues without justification, (red carded), replaced on the panel right in the middle of the competition. As a judge, I really like being held accountable... and knowing that other judges are held accountable. I can just go out and do my job, apply the rules in making my judgments, even if I have a personal preference (all judges do - don't kid yourself - we are human). Athletes like it, too. Coaches like it. Fans like it. Have never understood this need for secrecy and lack of accountability in FS judging - even though I am a fanatic FS fan, and have been for 40 years.

[Chitta]

God Bless you, MissMary, for offering/contributing this most excellent post and insight into a somewhat similar sport & competition as FS. Now, since gymnastics is also an Olympic sport, what possible "sane reason" or justifiable rationale can there be for FS not to emulate, follow suit, or adopt something similar? For the overall benefit of the athletes, fans, judges (some, thank God, like you who have a high degree of decency & integrity) and absolutely all concerned parties. To continue some truly ridiculous, trying-to-pass-off as "arcane system," is totally disingenious and a mere guise to continue to allow some level of deceit, bias, and underhanded manipulation to taint and besmirch what COULD/WOULD BE (if the "powers that be" would merely "do the right thing!") the most lovely of sports.

[missmarysgarden]

Well, thanks for the compliments on my sanity, Chitta.

I think the resistance to true form is the reluctance of the world of FS to let go of the ordinal system, and let the chips fall where they may. I also think that the great resistance to averaging is a result of individuals desire to maintain power and prestige (not dunning it - that's a human "failing" most people are vulnerable to).

The fact that gymnastics scoring throws out the high and low score, and averages only the middle scores, lessens the effect of individual nationalism. And because we don't have ordinals, no one judge can "place" an athlete.

There are many other subtleties in the judging system, and also in the annual certification of judges, and the Olympic year re- testing and re-certification of judges, that have raised the level of professionalism in gymnastics judging. I am all for it, and hope it continues to improve.

[loveskating]

Pro football is ENTIRELY a business, in which the respective owners have a common goal, to make money, and where each entity understands FULLY that they require the other to exist. The owners are not going to, any of them, do anything to utterly demoralize the fans of any team, and if they do, they pull back from it instantly.

But aren't the refs at the college level hired by the conference? At the college level constraint has more to do with video playbacks being allowed than anything else and there is much less constraint.

If the ISU hired the judges, then the politics in the ISU, which is necessarily based on federations, would decide which judges to hire, and you would still have the same problem.

[Scott]

Um, since when do NFL refs justify their decisions? Hardly. They make calls and that is it. A coach a challenge a call ( only a few times is allowed per game) but the ref's decision is final, justified or not! Look at how many errors these guys make calling completed passes, fouls and even whether or not there was a tochdown. Figure skating has enough issues of its own without wishing this system upon it!

[Chitta]

You've seemed to somewhat miss the gist of this thread, as the "football comparison" was a mere "jumping off" point. I do believe Miss Mary's excellent post basically gets to the "crux of the matter" of how an overall much more open and effective system might be implemented or modeled. But speaking on behalf of the football officiating, unfortunately, even though they don't always make the correct call; at least there's not some system in place where they can secretly hide behind any call they do make. And every single call made is soon, rather readily announced to the stadium and television fans openly. This is, I believe, what was somewhat the original tie-in to football.

[missmarysgarden]

The video replay is allowed in pro football but not in collegiate - for a variety of reasons.

I also judge NCAA gymnastics - and I think that NCAA gymnastics needs A LOT of clean-up. The standards applied in different Regions are completely different because qualifying to Regional and National Championships is based on total team scores, not on placement within conferences and Regions. I won't go into it anymore than that, but college coaches have been able to select their own judges for years. This only changed last year, but college coaches still retain the power to say "no" to any judge assigned to judge their meets that they don't want. Colleges tend to ask for younger, lower-rated judges who are more susceptible to being wined and dined, flown to Florida (or wherever) in the middle of the winter, and "bonus pay" in some areas of the country. Colleges are operating under a different kind of pressure in their minor sports departments. They don't pay their way in that they don't draw a big enough crowd - and the coaches want lots of hype as in "9.9" and 10.0 - in order to get headlines like "Wombat Gym Girls on Record High" - accompanied by a picture of an oiled up, tattooed, sexpot gymnast - in order to draw crowds. Its how they stay alive - by selling out as athletes. The scoring at Division I Women's Gymnastics is so inflated that it is meaningless. Unfortunately, most NCAA gymnastics competitions are sort of like "Celebrity-Judged Skating Events." There are only 2 meets a year where the judging makes any sense - NCAA Regionals and Nationals. Makes sense in that the right teams usually win. But any relationship between the scores and the rules in purely coincidental. Sorry, but that's the truth.

[missmarysgarden]

In NCAA, the sports that have/make money (basically the men's sports - football, basketball, hockey, baseball, wrestling) have officials assigned to their competitions by the conference. Officials are responsible to the conference; complaints are made to the conference, who investigate complaints by reviewing video tapes. Officials can lose their rating, or even their assignment rotation, for favoritism, inconsistency or incompetence. NCAA Gymnastics programs may contract directly with individual judges, or through NAWGJ.

In USAG Gymnastics (equivalent of USFSA), judges are sort of affiliates of USAG. They must be professional members (pay their $$$$). USAG has an affiliate called JCI, which provides training, testing, and certification of judges - it is rigorous. 99.9% of all judges belong to NAWGJ, which is a national organization with state and regional divisions that provide additional training and educational opportunities and provide/assign judges for USAG meets for a fee. Judges must complete an Active Status Program (clinics, video judging, volunteer work, etc.) to maintain their rating. To increase their rating, they must go through a rigorous training and testing procedure. Most judges are required to retest in the Olympic years. NAWGJ makes assignments to all competitions through Sectional meets. For state meets, USAG usually picks the officials they want. For Regional meets, Regional officials recommend judges with a balanced representation from member states. At any point, the State Committee or Regional Committee may act to block a recommended judge.

BTW, gymnastics judges are very well paid - and in accordance with their rating, whether they are judging a beginning meet, or National Championships. This is to make sure that the sport has a large pool of former coaches and athletes to draw from (real people) - not just the independently wealthy, love to travel in the gymnastics life, social butterfly judges.

[Chitta]

"Gosh Darnit!" - and just when I was beginning to think that there might be some possible "salvation of FS" (by a possible model of sorts) and the judging dilemma acutally on the horizon... But that basic framework with structured inquiry & required accountable response still seems promising. "Hope springs eternal!", one might hope. :)

Above paragraph was before your clarification (BTW, thanks for it, :)); and your additional insight into how measures are in place to head-off possible "political influence" and "rewards & spoils" is again, also encouraging as a model.

[missmarysgarden]

NCAA is a different game, Chitta. It's basically entertainment gymnastics. That is why it sort of irks me that they give full ride scholarships... but that's an off topic discussion.

The new regulations and format in USAG is working VERY well.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Scott
Um, since when do NFL refs justify their decisions? Hardly. They make calls and that is it. A coach a challenge a call ( only a few times is allowed per game) but the ref's decision is final, justified or not! Look at how many errors these guys make calling completed passes, fouls and even whether or not there was a tochdown. Figure skating has enough issues of its own without wishing this system upon it!

Not to mention failing to see clipping, especially away from the ball! Another area of great leeway seems to be on fumbles in a pile up...

[RobinA]

I could be wrong, but weren't deviant judges looked at quite closely in the previous judging system? I recall reading somewhere that whenever a judge was more than a certain (small) number of tens off what the majority of judges awarded they had to answer some pretty stiff questions. It seems to me that this new secret system has spawned a lot more deviation among judges. Suddenly we're seeing presentation scores ranging from 4.9 to 5.7.

The old system was specifically designed to mitigate the effect of a deviant judge or two. That's why "bloc" judging was necessary in order to get some pre-determined results. When you average the scores, one judge can have a stronger effect than with ordinals.

Personally, I want to keep the judging system the way it is, but change the way judges are selected for each event. For instance, knowing who will be judging an event months in advance is just begging for trouble. Also, any judge caught cheating is out on his ear for life.