Why do pairs skaters have so much trouble with sbs triple jumps?

[rack]

With very few exceptions, they all seem to, even skaters who trained in singles.

Is it because so much training time has to be spent on pairs moves? Or are the elite pairs skaters today ones who were in the last wave of sbs double jumps and the ones coming up will have trained from the get-go to do triples? Or is it just close to impossible to do a triple jump in near unison when there's another person doing one just a few feet away?

These are not rhetorical questions. I really am curious.

[Artemis]

I think the answer to all of your questions is "yes." As in, it's a combination of all those things and others: like having a pair that is well matched for the pairs elements should be more important than whether or not they can both do triples.

As an aside, I think adding the triple sbs to the pairs short program was a bad decision. Especially when the judges inevitably weight the sbs triple so highly, compared to poorly executed death spirals, lifts, pairs spins, and twists. And especially when you consider that it was added before the throw, and it's still only a double twist as a required element. IMO, they should have first added the throw, then made it a required triple twist, and only then added the sbs triple.

I love to watch pairs skating for the pairs elements. When they do land a sbs triple, I feel only relief -- none of the joy that I feel in watching a great pairs move, or a triple jump in singles. Strong individual skating technique should only be a means to the end of strong pairs technique, IMNSHO.

[Trillian]

A big problem in the U.S. (and to a lesser or sometimes equal degree in other countries) is that skaters who go into pairs are often those who simply don't have the jumping ability to make it in singles. Kids who can't get out of the qualifying round at regionals might decide to try pairs because they figure there are fewer competitors and that raises their chances--but ultimately, these kids are not going to be strong enough to do especially well in pairs, either.

There is an interesting situation in the U.S. right now, though, with a lot of strong female singles skaters winding up in pairs simply because even though they're very good (maybe even good enough to place well at nationals in smaller countries), there's just way too much competition. Because of that we have a lot of girls coming up who have or probably will eventually have pretty consistent solo triples. With the exception of Calla Urbanski I believe every female U.S. pairs champ since at least 1989 has competed at the national level (novice or above) in singles--Kristi Yamaguchi, Natasha Kuchiki, Jenni Meno, Kyoko Ina, and Danielle Hartsell all qualified for nationals at some level IIRC, plus Ina and (obviously) Yamaguchi competed internationally.

Many of the girls currently on the national team are strong singles skaters or were before they quit singles. Rena Inoue, Katie Orscher, and Jenny Don have all competed internationally. Tiffany Vise, Tiffany Stiegler, Molly Quigley, and Andrea Varraux have all made nationals. I believe Tiffany Scott and Marcy Hinzmann both made sectionals in singles at some point, and I think Brittany Vise, Amy Howerton, and Brooke Castile (possibly others as well) qualified for national competition at the juvenile and/or intermediate levels.

Ultimately I think the result of the influx of talented singles skaters is that the top pairs ladies in the U.S. will have very consistent triple jumps. Some of them, like Orscher and Don, already do.

Unfortunately that's not necessarily the trend with the men, so it may not matter much if their partners can't get the jumps. There are some guys who can do them, but because there are fewer male skaters in the first place there's bound to be fewer who can jump well. And that problem is increased by the fact that it tends to be harder for taller skaters to get the tough jumps (with exceptions, of course)--since the ideal pair guy is fairly tall, you can see what the result of that will be.

[11yrskate]

Brittany Vise has gone to nationals at the Juvenile or Intermediate level, but Amy Howerton has not.

[yogurtslinger]

Well... I think that although triple jumps are hard for pair skaters in general, this is really much more of a US problem... and especially a US men problem. First, there aren't that many elite US male skaters in general- and even fewer of those are in pairs.

And second, there's just not such an emphasis on the triple jumps for many of the pair skaters. There's absolutely no reason the triple toe should be as hard for some of the US pairs as it seems to be... if the pair skaters are expected to perform single elements at a high level from the get go (example- Chinese pairs), then they will.

It sort of reminds me of why the US is behind so many other nations in mathematics ability as well. There's absolutely *no reason* for it- the US is a technologically advanced nation, has the best conditions condusive to studying, etc. etc. but people just don't do it... because schools don't require it. Teachers don't want to assign lots of medial problems. So what you end up with is a few "really" talented people at the top of their fields domestically and internationally- these are the really "self-motivated" people who give themselves problems and really have to be creative to teach themselves the material... along with a whole bunch of people who can't even do the basics. (In other countries like Japan, China etc, I think the "basic" level of ability is a lot higher, but perhaps all the rote-practice is less condusive to development of independent thinking/"self-starter" behavior..)

Anyway, kind of a digression ;) But I think it works that way in skating too. Look at the Stieglers- that's all natural talent.. no one can teach Stephanie how to present herself like that. Yet at the same time, there's not that same level of security in some of the basic pair elements, etc. In particular, the triple jumps.

[loveskating]

If I recall, pairs didn't really have to do 3 jumps sbs until 1994...again, a case of folks who wanted to win upping the ante. Anyway, pairs have not been at the 3 jumps for a real long time, seems to me, as compared to most of the lifts and the death spirals.

I just wanted to say that a lot of pairs also have treendous trouble with SBS spins...its extraordinarily difficult to do them in unison, apparently.

[11yrskate]

[As an aside, I think adding the triple sbs to the pairs short program was a bad decision. Especially when the judges inevitably weight the sbs triple so highly, compared to poorly executed death spirals, lifts, pairs spins, and twists. And especially when you consider that it was added before the throw, and it's still only a double twist as a required element. ]

The US should be thankful they did not choose the triple twist over the SBS triple jumps. Compared to China and Russia, this element is also extremely week, some teams do not even have one (example Roth and McPherson). I am not sure which would be better in this case.

[gandalf]

I agree that adding the sbs triples to the SP was a poor decision. If they wanted to up the ante, they should have added the throw or triple twist or even a second lift first. I hate that pairs seems to be heading in the direction of two singles skaters performing together.

[AxelAnnie22]

Well, I think the reason for the problem for the SBS Triples in pairs is the same reason US ladies flutz, and Russian Ladies don't have better spirals..........they can get by without them!

Look at Ina and Zimmerman. How many times did we hold our breath to see if John was going to land on his feet? And yet, they were good enough to be competitive. I think, with few exceptions, people work on what they HAVE to have to get by, and pray about the rest.

I don't mean that harshly, btw. I have long said that if the judges fully dinged US ladies every time they flutzed, in two seasons, we would see no more flutzes! There is no reason for the pairs to keep falling on the jumps. It is just silly!

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by 11yrskate
The US should be thankful they did not choose the triple twist over the SBS triple jumps. Compared to China and Russia, this element is also extremely week, some teams do not even have one (example Roth and McPherson). I am not sure which would be better in this case.

There are a lot of teams, e.g. in the 10-20 range at Worlds, who don't have correct triple twists or don't even try them at all. Even Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze rarely got that move completely successfully.

I would expect that before the triple twist would be *required* in the pairs' short, it would first be *allowed* -- i.e., the pairs would have the option of a double or a triple, just as senior men have the option of a double or triple solo axel, and senior pairs have the option of double or triple on side-by-side and throw jumps. When there are more senior teams in the world who can actually do the triple fairly reliably than those who can't, then it might be time to require it. Not yet. But it might be time for the option to be there now.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by Ellyn
I would expect that before the triple twist would be *required* in the pairs' short, it would first be *allowed* -- i.e., the pairs would have the option of a double or a triple, ...

I could be wrong, but ... isn't that the case now with the sbs in the short? Pairs are allowed to do sbs triples, but the required element is a double or triple. It's just that you have to attempt a triple to be a contender -- no mandatory deduction for doing a double, but a much lower base mark so the result is the same.

Or maybe I'm just imagining it.

[Artemis]

Ok, just checked the SkateCanada website for the technical requirements, and yes, I was right: the required element is a sbs double or triple for the pairs short program.

http://www.skatecanada.ca/english/info/figure/techprsh.html

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Well, I think the reason for the problem for the SBS Triples in pairs is the same reason US ladies flutz, and Russian Ladies don't have better spirals..........they can get by without them!

Look at Ina and Zimmerman. How many times did we hold our breath to see if John was going to land on his feet? And yet, they were good enough to be competitive. I think, with few exceptions, people work on what they HAVE to have to get by, and pray about the rest.

I don't mean that harshly, btw. I have long said that if the judges fully dinged US ladies every time they flutzed, in two seasons, we would see no more flutzes! There is no reason for the pairs to keep falling on the jumps. It is just silly!

AA22, John can land those triples. He is simply a great example of a single skater that didn't have quite the jumps to be competitive so he switched to pairs where not so many are required. He's a very hard worker, not just trying to get by. He's just inconsistent when it counts, unfortunately.

And ITA with you on the flutzes. Penalize them, show them that it won't be tolerated, and they'd fix it soon enough. Same harshness goes for judges that wheel and deal: Do it, get banned for life and I bet after a couple of them did it, we'd have very little scandal left.....but that's a different soapbox, lol.

[sk8rzmom]

The only way they will clean up the flutzes is if the international judges get on the cases of our international and Olympic skaters who still can't do a true lutz. As long as skater can stay on their feet with a consistent set of triples, it doesn't reallymattere how they're done, especially if thse sloppy jumps have brought home medals.

[duane]

perhaps the American ladies are being penalized for flutzes, but because they are so superior in many other areas, it appears that they arent.

[Scott]

The issue is that when you are skating with another being just a few feet away it creates an entirely different situstion regardless of your abilities. You have to worry about correct spacing, taking off on jumps at the same time and landing them in unison. This creates more pressure. Side by side spins have the problem of unision and spacing. travelling on spins could produce disaster. In everything that the pair does its members have to also match speed! There really is more to think about when completing pair elements compared to what is needed for singles.