Are Your Opinions About A Skater Based on Emotion or Actual Skill?

[bruin4life]

Hey all.

So, I'd just like to gauge how you all rate skaters. Ideally, our favorite skaters have both superior skating skills and the ability to makes us feel their emotion through their skating. Yet, a lot of skaters seem to excell in one area at the expense of the other.

So, if you had to pick one aspect of the sport, what's more important to you, as a viewer and fan of figure skating?

For me, I determine who I like by the way they make me feel, how their skating affects me. Yes, we can all justify and wax poetic about technicle skills, choreagraphy, in betweens, etc to justify our arguments, but when it all comes down to it, its the emotion I get from the skater that determines whether or not I like them or not or if they should win. Does this make sense? Anyway, what's your take?

:D

[bleu]

Well at one point the ACTUAL skill do matters. IMO, there are still many SINGLE skaters pretending to do pairs skating. By that I mean skaters with so-so to okay pairs elements but not the greatest pairs elements. No matter how much they emote, you can still pick them out of the crowd ....

Back to the question, yes, I do like a skater based on other things too but I have to keep reminding myself that the skating matters the most.

[loveskating]

With me, having a favorite is always an emotional matter, but its based on more than that. There has to be a certain skill level for me to be emotionally drawn, which usually also involves having some element or quality that is truly exceptional.

I feel that OVERALL (all the elements and the basics) the difference between the top 5 skaters in any discipline is very, very small as to ability; the difference COMPETITIVELY as to the metals comes in as to luck and consistency in the given competitions and as to how your competitors skate as well (and unfortunately, there is also the issue of political support in the federations). But to me, the most consistent skater is not always the most accomplished skater overall.

Then there are skaters who have just taken me to an emotional place where I like it very much...Oksana Baiul; Ilia Kulik; Michelle Kwan; Alexander Abt, Takeshi Honda; Kurt Browning; Sasha Cohen; Barezhnaya & Sik; Sale & Peltier; G&G, M/K/D; Grishuk & Platov; Krylova & Ovsiannikov; T&D; Lang & Tchernachev are at the top of that list and then there are more, as well.

I'm not quite sure why...its different with different skaters: last year, Kulik made me smile for a week because he took that huge, beautiful 3 axel out of TWIZZLES!!! Just KILLED me, I loved it so. Lang & Tchernachev skated Carmen at Nationals to absolute perfection as to expressing that music, among the best ice dance skates I have ever seen, and I cried off and on for an hour I was so utterly delighted!

My overall favorites of all time are Ilia Kulik and Sasha Cohen. Both are innovative, lyrical, excel on numerous elements, are very, very musical and expressive and while neither have been consistent, its because they are passionate skaters who push the envelope; and their jumps are drop dead gorgeous, pure, beautiful to see.

Its the same for me in opera...Pavarotti made more mistakes viz. the composer's score than did his closest rivals...but he also simply had the beautiful voice, with which he took far more chances, was far more expressive and sang phrases and notes that were beyond compare, that no one else ever had or could touch. When he sang, you got more than your money's worth, you got in touch with God, for his singing often seemed miraculous. To this day, when I hear anyone else sing what he sang, I miss him, for they cannot come close to him.

[bunghodog]

I think A skater has to have the full package, jumps, style and emotional, but I would rather see style and emotion with triple jumps(not necessarly triple triples) for instance, Sarah has the triple triple jumps but if sarah and sasha skated a clean program, sarah had her triple triple and sasha her triple double in my opinion If I were a judge I would put Sasha first(I know I am not a judge) I think Sasha's style and emotion gives her the edge. Kulik is my all time favorite male skater, I wasn't ready for him to retire after the 98 olympics, I wanted more, since there are not that many pro events, the only time I see him skate is in soi.

[JDC1]

For me it's skill. I thought Michelle Kwan was a cutey in 94 with lots of potential but I didn't become a fan til 96 when she was just mesmerizing and in control and powerful. I felt the same way about Sasha in 00, everyone was saying how great she was and I was ho hum, her edges weren't that good nor was her ice coverage but fast forward to GG 2002 and I began to become a fan and after her 2002 ladies SP I was hooked. She doesn't draw me in emotionally but I totally respect her posture, clean line, the work she's done on her edges and her beautiful position in the air. I can like a skaters skating and not like what I perceive to be the skater's personality or attitude and I can conversely like the skater (example Sarah Hughes) but be totally uninterested in their skating. I totally adore Jamie and David's personality but I really am indifferent to their skating while conversely I adore Elena and Anton's skating but I guess in large part because of the language difference I am not particularly attached to them emotionally.

[adrianchew]

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, obviously. Both are almost equally important with a slight lean to emotion for me, but let me add two dimensions... difficulty & potential!

At any level of skating, there is usually a certain bar or standard to be amongst the top few - and then, you'll find someone who comes along and tries to raise that bar. It may not always be wildly successful - you might see cheats in jumps, or messing up a program due to a showpiece element, but those who continue to attempt raising the bar gain my respect too.

Skill is important, but more so to me is potential... I look not only at today, but what tomorrow may hold. Those skaters who continue to raise the bar... well they are the ones with potential, and skill and mastery come with experience and time. Skill can be acquired, but innate talent cannot... you either have IT, or you don't.

Let's look at the top few US ladies. AP... her potential is showing but with an almost unknown factor of how far she will go. Jenny... she's starting to be a butterfly now, but still has work to do. Sasha... she's at the beginning of greatness, probably the most focused and fierce competitor amongst the US ladies this season. Sarah... has won the Olympics, and IMO still has untapped potential left yet... whether she realizes that is hard to say (I would say Robin has done all she can with Sarah, and is the real limiting factor here).

Michelle and Angela... they've peaked and are not going to get much better... once you reach your own peak, there's only one place to go... down the other side of the mountain. One can home to plateau for a while (which Michelle has already done) but sooner or later, everyone has to say goodbye. Angela's injuries don't bode well for her either.

If we go as far back as 7th & 8th - Corwin/Gardiner are both about maxed out too - I wouldn't expect too much from them.

But its those skaters that have won my heart by their skating, not my skating intellect, that will have me as a fan for life... Sasha Cohen, Jamie & David, Katia & Sergei (in memory). Oksana Baiul would have made the list but she truly imploded in 2-3 years after Lillehammer.

[hiliairyh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adrianchew
[B]
but sooner or later, everyone has to say goodbye. Angela's injuries don't bode well for her either

But its those skaters that have won my heart by their skating, not my skating intellect, that will have me as a fan for life...

ITA, sooner or later everyone has to say goodbye Michael Jordan, Jack Nikalus, Kristi, Michelle, they all have achieved greatness and someday AP will say good bye too, hopefully she will achieve greatness before she retires. Some of their fans will remain fans for life. Most of these skaters, and athletes have contributed much to their sports, and will have a permanent place of affection in the hearts of some fans, and in the hall of fame. So different strokes for different folks, some people are Oksana fans for life, and some people are Kristi fans for life.

I hope all skaters will fulfill their potential, how I wish Deana Stellato and Jamie Silverstein are still skating. Potential is important, but the skatinggods have the final say.

On topic, I think basic skills is important, it is a sport.

[CMc]

Well for me it's both, but I believe I lean more towards emotion!
I'm not the kind of person that'll pick apart a skater's technique on the ice--Not that I wouldn't notice stuff like bad ice coverage or travelling spins and stuff like that--Even an occasional two-footed jump landing or so, but I definitely do notice how good I feel when I see how good they feel, and that's been my thing ever since.
Especially coming from folks like Scott Hamilton, Tara Lipinski, Lucinda Ruh, Brasseur & Eisler, and of course, Sarah Hughes!

[somechick]

It is obviously emotional when it comes to who I am a fan of. It usually happens the first time I see someone skate. Sure, a skater can grow on me and I can appreciate them, but those I root for and watch the most are those who took me in from the start. I mean, the first time I saw Sandhu skate was an absolutely dreadful performance but I was completely mesmerized nonetheless. In 99, I taped Nationals to see the Steiglers and found myself just taken in with this adorable little girl who was having the time of her life out on the ice--as rough around the edges and unfinished as she was, I just saw this spark and pure joy in Sarah that I have rarely seen in any other skater. Although Tara, Tim, Todd, all captured me in a similar way. And I am totally hypnotized every time Kurt Browning steps onto the ice.

Now, during competitions, I have to separate myself from that emotion and look at actual SKILL when I determine if someone should have won. As much as I love certain skaters and want for them to win, I know they don't always deserve it. I think a lot of people are unable to separate that emotion when looking at competition. It infuriate me when people use such stupid arguments as "oh, she's pretty" as a reason why someone should win. Or that if one person "is bored" by a skater, then the whole world must succumb to that view as well. The absolute refusal by some to even acknowledge that his/her favorite skater has faults or to go so far as to outright deny them while exaggerating anothers to an obsessive degree, that doesn't make a person look knowledgeable or insightful, it makes the person looks bitter, and a bit psycho. But that is JMHO. (and that is all that really matters, isn't it? :) )

[RoseAugust]

My opinions are based on both, with current mastered skills weighing the most. Talk of a skill that has not been laid down successfully in a recent, or any, competition has no weight. However, high opinion of a particular skater's skills rarely leads to my being a "fan." In the past 40 years I've had many favorites, but I've been a fan of only two, Robin Cousins and Michelle Kwan, and that's because they have consistently "moved me." Robin Cousins' skating always had me on the edge of my seat with anticipation; his skating was so seamless it seemed it left me no space to take a breath. Michelle Kwan's skating brings a peace to my soul; I have no idea why she affects me so, but I'm thankful for it.

[spiralsrfun]

Adrian, good post...let me tack-on to your post if I may and add my comments. :)
At any level of skating, there is usually a certain bar or standard to be amongst the top few - and then, you'll find someone who comes along and tries to raise that bar. It may not always be wildly successful - you might see cheats in jumps, or messing up a program due to a showpiece element, but those who continue to attempt raising the bar gain my respect too.
I completely agree with this!Skill is important, but more so to me is potential... I look not only at today, but what tomorrow may hold. Those skaters who continue to raise the bar... well they are the ones with potential, and skill and mastery come with experience and time. Skill can be acquired, but innate talent cannot... you either have IT, or you don't.
Good point, but don't forget about yesterday, as well as today and tomorrow. Potential can be realized (Sarah), and sometimes not (Nicole), but if potential is sustained over a long period (Michelle)...that skater has gained something and given something back to the sport in addition to setting a standard of excellence. Longevity is something that is very rare in this sport, and something I respect the most. Let's look at the top few US ladies. AP... her potential is showing but with an almost unknown factor of how far she will go. Jenny... she's starting to be a butterfly now, but still has work to do. Sasha... she's at the beginning of greatness, probably the most focused and fierce competitor amongst the US ladies this season. Sarah... has won the Olympics, and IMO still has untapped potential left yet... whether she realizes that is hard to say (I would say Robin has done all she can with Sarah, and is the real limiting factor here).
Again, I completely agree with you there. Michelle and Angela... they've peaked and are not going to get much better... once you reach your own peak, there's only one place to go... down the other side of the mountain. One can home to plateau for a while (which Michelle has already done) but sooner or later, everyone has to say goodbye. Angela's injuries don't bode well for her either.We don't know if Michelle and Angela will get better or not, that remains to be seen, they both have new coaches. Angela was just entering her peak last season, and Michelle is still winning competitions and seems to have a renewed enthusiasm, something I haven't seen from her in several years. You are right though, there is only one place to go once you've been on top as long as Michelle has...down...but from my point of view, she's still riding high on that plateau right now. ;)

In my heart, those who have a VERY special place are:

Kwan
Sato
Boitano
Orser
Browning
Eldredge
Yagudin
Katia & Sergei
Elena & Anton


I'll add Angela and Sasha to my list once they fulfill their potential. they've both realized it...they just need to make it happen now. :)

[Lark]

I must admit I like some skaters almost exclusively for their ability to move me:

Oksana Baiul
Maria B.
Eman Sandhu
Angela N. - IMO, verrryyy underrated nationally.

Some skaters I like simply for moxy:

Sarah - my favorite, so strong and consistant.
Sasha - huge cajones, makes me giggle.
Michael Weiss - simply is not open to being put down.
B&K
I&Z

Then there are skaters who I respect and enjoy watching more than being an actual fan of:

Michelle
Todd
Yagudin
Plushenko
B&S
A&P
S&P

Surprisingly, I have never cared for Irina, Elvis, Abt, as well as many others. I guess I can see why others like Abt, for his potential, but I see almost no redemptive qualities in Elvis and Irina, other than them not giving up.

[loveskating]

Perhaps a definition of "peak" would be helpful. People seem to be referencing different things when they speak of "peaking".

There are changes going on in the human body all the time...until one peaks physically, and this can occur differently for different people...clearly, for instance, it occurred for Maria Butereskaya later than for most women.

It usually occurs in men at around age 21...and occurs wildly varied for women during their 20s, but occur it does.

When I speak of "peak" I am not talking about an attitude or any of that, I am talking about a quantifiable physical phenomenon (bones harden slightly, hair changes, skin changes, healing takes a bit longer, its harder to lose weight, etc. there is a "what goes up must come down" phenomenon) -- which to some degree or another shows itself in the skating of the individual.

There are exceptions to EVERY rule, because human beings are mostly the same, but different on a bell curve, so each person is unique...generally, however, the "facts" of physically peaking apply.

When I speak of a skater peaking, I mean this...

[singerskates]

Originally posted by bruin4life
Hey all.

So, I'd just like to gauge how you all rate skaters. Ideally, our favorite skaters have both superior skating skills and the ability to makes us feel their emotion through their skating. Yet, a lot of skaters seem to excell in one area at the expense of the other.

So, if you had to pick one aspect of the sport, what's more important to you, as a viewer and fan of figure skating?

For me, I determine who I like by the way they make me feel, how their skating affects me. Yes, we can all justify and wax poetic about technicle skills, choreagraphy, in betweens, etc to justify our arguments, but when it all comes down to it, its the emotion I get from the skater that determines whether or not I like them or not or if they should win. Does this make sense? Anyway, what's your take?

:D

As a skater and a fan, I tend to lean on both. True figure skaters do have both. Some more than others. But you can have all the emotion in the world and not be able to pull off a simple waltz jump which would take you no where. You may posess tricky footwork but if you don't know how to connect with the audience it's for nothing. Figure Skating is a balance of skill and showmanship. To make it to the top, you need both.

[loveskating]

I agree...just like in anything else, singing, photography, playing an instrument, ONLY when you have achieved the highest technical standards can you "color" with your own brush.

There ARE exceptions, however, i.e., the Sex Pistols (the Clash had Mick Jones, who had the very highest tech standards as to music).

And don't mix up forms...the form of rythem and blues is not the same as that of opera, so while one is overall more complex than the other as to music as a whole, an opera singer cannot do justice to the blues or vice versa.

[spiralsrfun]

loveskating -

Great point about what we mean with peaking.

For me, when I speak of a skater "peaking" I'm speaking mainly of their difficult skills (technical elements). Skaters will always continue to grow artistic/presentation-wise...but their most difficult technical skills (jumps, for example) usually "peak" at some point.

To use Michelle as an example, from 1998-2002 she didn't really continue to grow as far as jumping goes. She had all her triples mastered, and she could do the 3T/3T, but past that, she didn't push any more. The only thing she did different during that time was add the 3flip to her SP and add the 3Z/2L to her LP last season (which has been already dropped this season) so, in a sense, she "peaked" with her jumps. That said, she could be going for a 3Z/3T or 3F/3T, as the current jump layout of Aranjuez suggests, but until she does that...she's still at a jump peak.

Also 1998-2002 she did greatly improve her layback and really refined her edging though...so she still is "growing" as a skater. This season we've already have seen an improvement with her speed and her footwork also seems to be an area of focus as well.

The addition of Scott Williams could help Michelle push herself more in technical aspects. So I guess she may not have really "peaked" yet, that remains to be seen. I wish her luck

[loveskating]

Hello Spiralsarefun:

It IS hard to tell...IMHO the reason is that these underlying, physical and quantifiable changes are slow to happen, but one notices that the athlete not only does not improve, but cannot get to peak technical levels over say, a years time.

I agree, one can always improve one's presentation, one's artistry. That's what I like about the best pros...they were able to do a lot of innovative things that would have been a waste of valuable time in the amaetur context (Kurt, Kulik and Wylie are tops in this respect).

Perhaps we should define emotion as well? OOPS, can't be done!

[spiralsrfun]

Perhaps we should define emotion as well? OOPS, can't be done! :lol: Too true!

[meli]

With some skaters I think the emotion and the technical things are too wrapped up in each other. Sometimes it's a very emotional event, like Brian Boitano at the 1988 Olys, when you got to see not only a peak performance at the time you're supposed to see it, you got to see the transformation made complete from a skater who was only starting to learn what it meant to be a technical skater who could let his skating move you, to a skater who suddenly understood it all. And Brian's story of what happened to him while he was skating blurs the lines for a lot of his fans, especially those who became fans of his because of that one night.

On the other hand, years later, I got to see Brian from the front row of COI do a Tano Lutz, and probably until my dying day it will be the single most amazing skating move I will ever see done in front of me. And it was for purely technical reasons--the height he has to get to do it, the illusion of him suspending gravity while he's doing the rotations, the landing on that tiny little edge as if he'd just done nothing at all. So maybe it really is both.

[Chico]

both

As a skater I tend to look for technique first. I find it hard to admire someone when I have isues with their skills. After I get past the skills I need to feel the skater. (feel- That special something that's difficult to explain but know it when you feel it.) Watching Michele K. skate on the COI tour made me cry. The emotion just bubbled up in me. Just watching her stroke could do this to me, as she has that special something for me. A few other folks who have this emotional feeling for me: Angela N., Brian B., Paul W., Scott H., and my coach. =-) Seriously, watching my coach just skate his heart out is a beautiful thing.

Chico

[loveskating]

Most people seem to agree that while emotions govern who their favorites are more than appreciation for the technical accomplishments of the skater(s), that in competition one has to try to be totally objective. In any case, that is what we seem to expect, no "demand", of the judges.

I think its more balanced than that...but that overall, emotional reactions are decisive, as in "presentation is the tie breaker" so to speak, or as in the sum is greater than its parts.

However, it seems to me that emotions change. Skating fans can go through a process...take being a football fan...at first, you cant' tell a line backer from a defensive end...but as you watch and learn, you begin to sort out all the aspects and that changes the way you see the game, is all, and might give you a huge appriciation for the linebakers instead of just the quarterback, LOL, especially on 1st down and 10 at the goal line! So while before, you were thrilled by the quarterback's throws and the catches of the Ends, now you are also thrilled by an incredible defense at the goal line by the linebackers (which you would not have even noticed before you sorted things out).

Also, its more than possible for the human heart to love more than one skater...probably not more than one husband or wife, but for sure, one can love 10, 20, perhaps 100 skaters, I feel sure, all for different reasons.

The first skater I ever saw (and loved) was Sonja Henie, whom I saw on television at around age 3, I'm told, and I said, "I want to do that!" and never gave up asking.

Finally, a cautionary word -- some emotions are not good, i.e. hatred, racism, homophobia, jealousy, envy, bitterness, national chauvenism, arrogance, revenge, etc. etc. so it pays to check in with one's emotions from time to time...because as awful as these are for the object of any of them, they are probably even more awful for the person motivated by them.

[spiralsrfun]

Originally posted by loveskating
Finally, a cautionary word -- some emotions are not good, i.e. hatred, racism, homophobia, jealousy, envy, bitterness, national chauvenism, arrogance, revenge, etc. etc. so it pays to check in with one's emotions from time to time...because as awful as these are for the object of any of them, they are probably even more awful for the person motivated by them.
Wise words indeed...well said and good advice

[gkilloug]

What an interesting question. I would have to say initially that it is skill that attracts me to a skater in the first place, but it is an emotional connection that pushes a skater to the top of my favorites and keeps me excited about watching that skater skate. My favorite of favorite skaters is Alexander "Sasha" Abt. Even though he often did not finish near the top, I always enjoyed watching his skate no matter how he placed. I usually felt that was robbed too in terms of placement, but I still enjoyed his skating. Atleast a couple of years ago, I decided to find out what I could about him on the internet. The television announcers had mentioned he had many injuries, but I had no idea until I researched him, plus I found out many other heart warming things about him. I am amazed that he could skate again. Plus I realized his personality reminds me alot of my self, much more than any other skater. When interviewed he was very honest, open, and seems to be a sincerely nice person. I had kinda gotten distracted away from figure skating, but my emotional connection to Abt has kept me excited and more involved in keeping up with sport. I like all the little extra things that Abt does right in addition to his hang time on jumps and his great spins, so the base of the attraction is still skill. However, what keeps me from being distracted away from this sport is due to an emotional connection.

[royalgrandmummy]

For me, emotion has a huge part in my opinions. Of course, one must have the skills, but if there is not connection emotionally, I find myself wishing the skate to be over.
Michelle Kwan moves me to tears with her intense feelings and joy for skating.
Kurt Browning leaves me in awe with his charisma and skill.
There are some skaters who leave me cold and I will not mention them by name, but even though they may be excellent in skill and expression, I would rather not even see them!