Ice Dancing Chat [Archive] - skatingforums.com

quark

10-26-2002, 03:19 PM

What?meworry? made a number of excellent points in a previous thread about JGP Dancers. I don't have any answers for how the USFSA can attract and keep boys in this discipline. It would be interesting to try some different approaches both financially and image wise.

Dmitri Boundoukin is not the only Russian who came to this country to ice dance, and somehow dissappeared. Whatever happened to Yuri Antonov who partnered with Brittany May for a couple of years?

Anyone seen any of the choreography coming out of Maryland yet? Any direct reports on programs for Justin Pecarek and his new partner?

I'm told that Melissa Ralph is a very good student, and this is her Senior year in High School. She'll have to decide what University to attend. It will have to be near an Ice Dancing center if she wishes to find a new partner, and continue skating at an elite level. Going to school almost full time and skating full time seems almost impossible. Anyone know if scholarships are available for ice skaters?

kia

10-26-2002, 03:32 PM

Yuri Antinov has his name on the partners search list. Perhaps he has been unable to find the right person or some-one to support him. I imagine he lacks what a lot of less well known skaters or imported skaters from eastern block countries lack-money to skate.

11yrskate

10-26-2002, 04:05 PM

In regards to Dima, the last I heard he was still in Marlboro. He is associated with Evita Ice (chorographer in Marlboro) so if you find her you will probably find him. Kia's comment about lack of funds is accurate in this case. Not to many people have the financial means to pay for ice-time for two, costumes, entry fees and all the coaching; which sadly leaves skaters like Dima without a partner, plus then you'd have to add a move on top of all that.

Trillian

10-26-2002, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by 11yrskate
Not to many people have the financial means to pay for ice-time for two, costumes, entry fees and all the coaching; which sadly leaves skaters like Dima without a partner, plus then you'd have to add a move on top of all that.

Yeah, from what I've heard, Boundoukin wants a partner who can cover all his expenses, which is pretty difficult to find (especially if you add the requirement of talent to that). I was told a couple of years ago after he and Newman split that he wasn't willing to move, though, so unless that's changed it's also a major issue--who's coaching dance in Marlboro these days? And there has been a lot of buzz about this guy's treatment of his partners which, true or not, was definitely an issue for some girls--I know of at least one top skater who refused to even consider the possibility of a tryout with him because of an incident she supposedly witnessed or heard about. I don't know enough about the guy to know if he's just the victim of gossip or if these things are actually true, though.

11yrskate

10-26-2002, 05:27 PM

As for as treatment of other partners, I believe the Neuman's did not have many problems, if any. It certainly would be wise not to bite the hand that feeds you.

IdmaIjan

10-26-2002, 07:14 PM

I'm not sure I understand your post 11yrskate. Could you more fully explain it?

If you meant the Newmans had no problems with former partners, I had a conversation with someone very close to the situation. It is my understanding that there were problems with other partners.

A shame really. Alison is a very talented girl. Why should her family have had to pay for a partner?

I know, I know I can hear it now...because that's what all the boys expect. But I also know that there are boys, and their parents, who not only don't expect monetary compensation, but don't want it. Trust me, there are boys who were willing to dance but they'd been scr***d by girls, the girls parents, and coaches and those boys say enough is enough. And they left competitive skating behind.

Sorry if I've strayed from my original question....but, my point is, there are always two sides to every story.

11yrskate

10-26-2002, 09:52 PM

[If you meant the Newmans had no problems with former partners, ]

I'm sorry let me clarify. I have never heard the Neuman's complain about Dima during the time she was skating with him. And never witnessed anything out of the ordinary during their training together.

Paying for a male partner, is not out of the ordinary. It seems to happen more in dance then in pairs.

11yrskate

10-26-2002, 10:19 PM

In addition to paying for partners. I think so few people are willing to relocate in the US that it makes choices very limited. If a Russian is willing to move, where US boys are not, then the obvious partner would be the one who is willing to move. As mentioned before in previous threads, not all Russian skaters are bought by the girls, it just depends on each situation.

what?meworry?

10-26-2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by IdmaIjan
...If you meant the Newmans had no problems with former partners, I had a conversation with someone very close to the situation. It is my understanding that there were problems with other partners.

you are correct regarding the problems with partners.

there is, of course, the "for publication" version and then there is the "real" version which is discussed one to one.

what?meworry?

10-26-2002, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by 11yrskate
As mentioned before in previous threads, not all Russian skaters are bought by the girls, it just depends on each situation.

i disagree. the only russian male who has not been supported by his partner that i've ever heard about is peter tchernychev. some of the parents/grandparents go through all sorts of convoluted "money laundering" systems, but it's stilll the girl's family buying her a partner.

i will also add, however, that occasionally the girl actually has talent. but the greater russian community of successful coaches and friends would do well by their young men to create a support network to help the talented russians match up with talented, well matched partners. it would enhance the coaches success and produce (at least for worlds) more successful teams for the usa.

i still would like to see usfsa actively recruit and help get started, male skaters into ice dance (and pairs, if they have enough triples). we've certainly seen a number of strong female fs skaters shift with great success (neussar, belbin, ralph).

russia has operated on a selection/matching/educating system that has produced great success. they also have formally educated their coaches.

11yrskate

10-27-2002, 01:21 AM

[i still would like to see usfsa actively recruit and help get started, male skaters ]

I wish, but really doubt that this would happen. They don't even help support new teams. It is great they have the dance/pair tryout every year, put after that skaters are on their own. If they would give assistance to the skater that is willing to move, we might have more people willing to relocate. It is very expensive to add the cost of housing on top of the cost of skating.

NiceIce

10-27-2002, 09:57 AM

I dont know why the boys feel they are justified in asking for financial support from the girl.
It is nothing more than a form of bribery.
Emotionally it sets up a power trip on both sides, and ruins many teams.
The very first step should be at the coaches level, where there is ample opportunity to plant the idea of dance or pairs in the minds of young male skaters.
Most young males will never make it in singles...thats a fact, but a fact that most dont accept until they have wasted too much time and money on singles, and given up great opportunites in pairs or dance. They give up the sport in frustration, just when they are beginning to have strength and style , but maybe not consistant triples.
I can think of one right now who would be the most amazing Pair skater...John Salway. A strong skater in junior men, but very inconsistant with jumps. However, he is powerful and fast, and has dramatic presentation. He would make a great Pair partner. Kevin Curtis...would make a great Pair partner. Sam Dafoe...pairs or dance.
Evan Gibbs...dance. there are so many junior/novice men who should be directly encouraged and supported by the USFSA to pursue dance or pairs.The USFSA should send them information. They should offer them seminars. they should call them and discuss it. They should ask local judges to visit and discuss it at the rink.
We dont need to import as much as nurture what we already have.
And it is insane that girls have to submit to bribery to get a partner.

11yrskate

10-27-2002, 10:41 AM

Nice Ice, I agree with you it is sad shape that some have to come to that when there are ample men skaters in the US that are capable. Some of the gentlemen that you mention would be great choices, some are too short. In most cases, a strong partner needs some relative height. What we see is that coaches are not willing to share, or let the skater move on. I see that as more of a road block, than their ability to pay their half.

kia

10-27-2002, 02:34 PM

nice ice
Your comment about the power play when one partner is paying is so true and bad for partnerships. Many of the male skaters come from countries which are quite chauvinistic and it is hard for the boy to be ' financially subservient' to the girl or controlled by the girls family, when they have grown up in a country where the boys make the decisions Any partnership is difficult particularly after the initial excitement a the new partnership as couples are trying to establish their position. There is marriage counselling perhaps with partnerships there should be financial assistance for partnership counselling.

Icesk8dance

10-27-2002, 07:53 PM

Icesk8dance

10-27-2002, 07:59 PM

Icesk8dance

10-27-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by NiceIce

The very first step should be at the coaches level, where there is ample opportunity to plant the idea of dance or pairs in the minds of young male skaters.
Most young males will never make it in singles...thats a fact, but a fact that most dont accept until they have wasted too much time and money on singles, and given up great opportunites in pairs or dance. They give up the sport in frustration, just when they are beginning to have strength and style , but maybe not consistant triples.

Oh, if only it were this easy! This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. So many of the boys do give up at the Novice/Junior level and then it is really to late to consider dance. At this level most of the boys are 17-19 and they would be looking at a year just to get through the test structure.

This is an issue the USFSA needs to take up with the coaches, but how do you ask a coach to do what would be in the best interest for the skater but also give up a steady income? It just won't happen! I have heard coaches telling their male students at a young age that they would be settling for something less if they went into dance. Another male dance I know was teased by his former coach for up to year because he "gave up" on freestyle.

I wish there was an easy solution. If I were in charge all males skaters would have to test dance along with their free skate and moves for each level.

11yrskate

10-27-2002, 09:16 PM

The idea that dance is inferior to freestyle is drilled into too many skaters at an early. I know of one incident where the parents would constantly threaten their boys to but them in dance if they did not get the jumps. It is ridiculous to think that dance is not as difficult as freestyle. Look at the top Russian teams, they are great edge skaters, and obviously it is extremely difficult to reach that level in dance or pairs internationally are the US would be on the podium, example Skate America.

Icesk8dance

10-27-2002, 11:03 PM

Sorry for the double incomplete post. I kept getting "web site not responding."

NiceIce

10-28-2002, 01:55 PM

I have had direct experiences with coaches trying to discourage male skaters from "taking time away from freestyle" to pursue options in pairs or dance. These guys did not give up freestyle, but just wanted to explore other possibilities and options as well as continue with the freestyle.
Instead of helping the boys learn ways to better manage their ice time in order to improve in each discipline, the boys are scolded for "wasting" their time with dance/pairs. It is not even a subtle message. It is outright negative.
It is at the coaches level that boys are actually made to feel that pairs or dance is a final stage option for a skater without great jumps.
In the next 4 years, most of the guys in senior men and junior men will NOT "make it" to the top.
They will not get the internationals.
They will not go to the Olympics.
And they will lose out on having a much greater chance at achieving their goals because they will refuse to accept that are better suited to dance or pairs.
The USFSA needs to understand the dynamics of what is happening.
they need to actively discuss with guys the options that are out there, and they need to earmark funds to do this, and spread some financial assistance to any dance or pair team at the novice level and above, so that the primary feelings associated with dance/pairs teams is fun, effort, success/pleasure/support instead of fear/bribes/tension/sacrifice/loss.

11yrskate

10-28-2002, 07:04 PM

[The USFSA needs to understand the dynamics of what is happening.
they need to actively discuss with guys the options that are out there, ]

I don't see how that is going to help, if their coach is going to say no you shouldn't do this, or be negative towards pair or dance. It seems like the coach has the final word if a skater is going to pursue another discipline. And I don't know many guys that seem to have the gumption to go against what the coach says.

what?meworry?

10-29-2002, 11:08 PM

well, all coaches are required to be members of usfsa in order to bring skaters to usfsa qualifiers.

perhaps, usfsa could have a "chat" with the coaches of the boys who, the collective judging and management community agree might succeed in dance or pairs, and convince them that it is the skaters best interest, not the coach's that is valued and most important? dream on.

quark

11-02-2002, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Icesk8dance
Oh, if only it were this easy! This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. So many of the boys do give up at the Novice/Junior level and then it is really to late to consider dance. At this level most of the boys are 17-19 and they would be looking at a year just to get through the test structure.
Seems to me the USFSA should set up, and help fund, 4 or 5 dance/pair centers around the country. If they help provide room and board, and substitute parental services they might get a larger number of girls and boys in the same room for team matching. This is like the old Russian system that was so successful. Coaches who are really top notch would probably end up at these centers. There's nothing like reinforcement of value like being around people who feel the same way as you. Boys wouldn't have to justify their love of skating to anyone, and winning medals over a period of time would encourage even more young people to show up.

There are already four potential centers that I can suggest:

1) Detroit - Shpilband
2) San Jose - Klimova and Ponomarenko
3) Boston or Delaware
4) Texas or Colorado

I think of this like the old military schools. I don't know if the schools can be controlled without scandals, etc. but it might be worth a try. I'd give the schools complete control like team forming, and breaking up. This is necessary since the young will grow and change and will need new matchups as they get older. A team that doesn't want to change, or doesn't want this regimented system can go to another coach or local rink. The USFSA can even arrange for star teams from around the world to come and demonstrate specific skills. That gymnastics center under Bela Karolyi was very successful, even though I don't like his methods.

NiceIce

11-02-2002, 11:44 AM

quark, that is a very good suggestion!
It means the USFSA would have to take a more active role in promoting , assisting and maintaining dance and pair teams.
It gives skaters real options, and releases them from some of the outrageous financial and emotional sacrifices. As it is now, when those sacrifices dont result in immediate medals/success, our teams tend to find reasons to split up and give up.
Even now the USFSA could invite every novice and above dance/pairs team to Colorado for seminars, and pay the skaters' way while they are there, to assist them in strenghthening their understanding of team relationships, and also offer expert advice about the technical as well as emotional aspects of dance/pairs. This could be done at least twice a year, not as a reward for medaling at Nationals, but for real grassroots commitment to teams in dance and pairs.
They need to target teams that exist, but not just offer this kind of thing to the winners of Nationals as they do now once a year.
When a team has an opportunity to bond from unique experiences such as this, it does help to reinforce their commitment to each other and to the sport.
The USFSA could have our highest level judges there for advice and feedback, and could show the Novice and junior teams videos of successful international competitors at that level, since all many ever see is Worlds and Olympics seniors.
Too many teams are isolated and unaware of the international standards and expectations, and the USFSA is in the postition to enlighten them.
Why dont they???
I have no idea.

11yrskate

11-02-2002, 01:16 PM

That sounds like a great idea, but money is more likely the problem.
There has to be a better way of matching up, then just leaving it to the coaches. I think many of our teams are not well matched. They basically take the one that is local, or the one that is willing to move. That limits your choices greatly, and limits your success in the long run. If there was some funding then more people would have the obtion to move. Sacrifices have to be made across the board not just on the part of the person who is willing to relocate. In Russia, I think many skaters are excited to have the opportunity. The way of life here in the states, frankly, we are a little spoiled.

what?meworry?

11-03-2002, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by NiceIce
quark, that is a very good suggestion!
It means the USFSA would have to take a more active role in promoting , assisting and maintaining dance and pair teams.
It gives skaters real options, and releases them from some of the outrageous financial and emotional sacrifices...The USFSA could have our highest level judges there for advice and feedback, and could show the Novice and junior teams videos of successful international competitors at that level, since all many ever see is Worlds and Olympics seniors.
Too many teams are isolated and unaware of the international standards and expectations, and the USFSA is in the postition to enlighten them.
Why dont they???
I have no idea.

we are a democracy, the ussr was not. but even now, funding is provided in russia for clubs based on their number of successful competitive teams. (usfsa sends money to the teams based on envelope placement, for example, a "b" envelope team would get appx $15,000 based on envelope placement alone plus csap, if applicable per individual, plus possible other support).

mostly, i'd like to see usfsa put pressure on coaches to share skills to develop a broader-based coaching pool.

this all sounds great when we toss it out here on the boards, but being deeply involved in developmental planning for corporations, putting into operation systems ideas people toss out as blithely as rose petals, i must tell you this isn't as easy as it sounds, a much as we'd wish it to be.

so i offer this challenge. those of us who think we know what usfsa needs do to develop a stronger dance and pairs identity internationally, let's "sit down" and put pencil to paper and work a real, step by step recommendation to implement a system whereby the right partners come together, everyone has the optimum training they need to succeed, coaches are trained in their profession (including child development and psychology) while still maintaining competitiveness (as is in russia now, and was for the ussr).

be advised that we will need to evaluate the impact on the other, currently more successful disciplines of skating, that our funding requires, and develop addition sources of revenue, if needed.

this is a real call to those of you out there who think we can pull something together.

the ussr set about to do just that and succeeded in taking over the ice dance crown previously held by great britain.

who among us would be willing to actually work on formulating a proposal to usfsa, including recommendations for funding the plan? put your skills where your rapid-fire typing fingers are. (or money where you mouth is.) especially you, quark, you sound like an academic and scientist who must be familiar with grant applications. your skills would be invaluable.

what?meworry?

11-04-2002, 11:28 PM

well, i guess asking you guys to do some real-world work scared you all off!;)

quark

11-05-2002, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
well, i guess asking you guys to do some real-world work scared you all off!;) Geez! I'm thinking, I'm thinking! :idea:

11yrskate

11-05-2002, 08:35 AM

I would be willing to share my observations about what is wrong with the system and some options to improve it. There are many qualified people who post on this board, who can see where the future needs to go. Money, and coaches willingness to change they way they think are going to be two key factors.

what?meworry?

11-05-2002, 12:23 PM

good! thinking is all that's needed right now. we can "make a date" to cyber-meet after nationals and see what specific, concrete ideas we've come up with.

this gives everyone a chance to formulate, talk to other people, revise, etc. and condense it down to workable ideas. we don't all have to do every aspect of this, some might think they have the perfect way to bring our coaches together, others, how to equitably, and with consideration of the female partners in particular, mix'n'match partners, or still others, how the heck to get more usa male skaters into ice dance.

Mazurka Girl

11-05-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
we are a democracy, the ussr was not. but even now, funding is provided in russia for clubs based on their number of successful competitive teams. (usfsa sends money to the teams based on envelope placement, for example, a "b" envelope team would get appx $15,000 based on envelope placement alone plus csap, if applicable per individual, plus possible other support).
I agree it is unlikely the USFSA as an organization would ever implement specific training centers in the Russian tradition due to the emphasis in the U.S. regarding freedom of choice & because clubs nationwide wouldn't support it. But I can definitely see where a significant increase in USFSA support activities could be gained for dance in response to other types of proposals.

mostly, i'd like to see usfsa put pressure on coaches to share skills to develop a broader-based coaching pool.
Yes, this is truly something that could improve dance in the U.S.

backspin

11-05-2002, 03:32 PM

I know this is really irrelevant to the discussion, but I just feel the need to point out that a skater starting dance at 17 or so, no matter how good they are, would take more than a year to test up to senior level in dance. Too many new things to learn, esp. w/ partnering, and too many dances (cumpulosories as well as free dances) to get through to do it that fast. Two years, maybe, if they're very, very good.

Plus, you'd really want to hold them maybe a year at least at junior if not novice, to give them some experience competing.

On the other hand, dancers tend to have longer competitive careers, usually into their 30's w/o much trouble, so I don't think 17 would necessarily be too late to make the switch.

Trillian

11-05-2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by backspin
I know this is really irrelevant to the discussion, but I just feel the need to point out that a skater starting dance at 17 or so, no matter how good they are, would take more than a year to test up to senior level in dance. Too many new things to learn, esp. w/ partnering, and too many dances (cumpulosories as well as free dances) to get through to do it that fast. Two years, maybe, if they're very, very good.

Is there a difference for slighly younger skaters in your theory? Because as I recall, Emilie Nussear took all her dance tests through junior in about a 6-month period when she was 15.

Mazurka Girl

11-05-2002, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by backspin
I know this is really irrelevant to the discussion, but I just feel the need to point out that a skater starting dance at 17 or so, no matter how good they are, would take more than a year to test up to senior level in dance. Too many new things to learn, esp. w/ partnering, and too many dances (cumpulosories as well as free dances) to get through to do it that fast. Two years, maybe, if they're very, very good.
Hilary Gibbons (age 20?) passed through all the dance tests in less than a year & will be competing at the senior level. It really depends on the situation.

NiceIce

11-05-2002, 06:25 PM

If you have a very good skater that already has control and style on the ice, as Emilie did (she had done freestyle for many years and pairs) it isnt such a difficult switch to dance. In fact, in the freedance
strong skaters without alot of icedance training can still outskate/dance some who have plugged along for years only doing icedance.
Teenage males who are just beginning to skate is a whole different story though.
But for a male at 17 with years of training, the switch to icedance can be quite easy.

backspin

11-05-2002, 07:25 PM

Okay, I guess I take it back! :D I wouldn't have imagined it possible....& I'm an ice dancer! I do think these must be cases of *extremely* talented skaters, & to be honest I'd still question their partnering skills. Of course, if they were training at an elite level, 3 or 4 hours a day, maybe they would be all right... interesting to know that though, thanks. :)

what?meworry?

11-05-2002, 11:51 PM

this isn't a change of topic, it's the heart of the topic.

i don't think any age is too late. a powerful fs skater who has good edges, speed, and footwork (which is many of the upper level fs males), can transition rapidly. look at pekarak's girlfriend---lots of press out there about how great they are, and she's only recently taken up dance! the guys can do it too! they just need encouragement, a push in the right direction by usfsa, perhaps. if you can skate it, go ahead and start in senior. but be steeled to "pay your dues" for a few years.

once upon a time, a skater went into dance if they couldn't jump and frequently, couldn't skate. no longer, thank goodness. now you at least have to be able to skate: edges, centering, power, footwork...

but, usfsa needs to remove some really stupid roadblocks. mostly, in europe, there are no lower dances. in russia, they learn to skate first and then separate into disciplines. dancers start at our pre-silver level, the first "international competition" level, i believe. why must we doggedly require high level freestyle skaters to test the stupid dutch waltz and all those other 8 dances. why not start, if a skater is novice or above at the silver, or the first international level dances?

one thing that is required, however, is the ability to hear and keep time to music. that will never change.

kia

11-06-2002, 06:03 AM

'why must we doggedly require high level freestyle skaters to test the stupid dutch waltz and all those other 8 dances. why not start, if a skater is novice or above at the silver, or the first international level dances?"

I partially agree with this some of the lower level dances should be dropped but not all. It is a waste for a high level skater to test in the Dutch Waltz - a dance with simple steps and one they are unlikely to compete in.

Having a basis in figure skating is helpful for dancers but even though senior level figure skaters may be strong skaters, the lower level dances often teach skills that free skaters may lack eg steps that are not commonly done in free skating. Also the posture for dance is different than that for freeskating. An analogy would be a free skater swiching to hockey and expecting to be league level without learning how to manipulate a puck.-how long do you think they would stay in the team. If you want results on an international level as well as getting boys into the sport they must be taught the basics and they need to have pride in what they are doing.

Dance needs to be marketed properly. It should be shown to be just as difficult a discipline as freeskating and one which requires specific talents. Boys should see this as a sport to be proud of, not a sport for failed figue skaters which is how many boys perceive it now.

The other perception problem that has to be overcome is the belief that dance is for sissies or gays. This is one of the big problems with the sport and it needs proper marketing to change. Males can get teased or beaten up at school if it is known they are dancers. As an aside a male friend of mine who was always teased and put down for being an ice dancer and not a hockey or football player, would always come back that he'd rather have his arms around the girls than the boys.

Mazurka Girl

11-06-2002, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by what?meworry?
why must we doggedly require high level freestyle skaters to test the stupid dutch waltz and all those other 8 dances. why not start, if a skater is novice or above at the silver, or the first international level dances?
Since they modified the free dance test process this year for competitive skaters, maybe there will be more changes coming in the future.

jenlyon60

11-06-2002, 07:59 AM

As boring as the lower level dances are, they do provide a good gradual introduction to dance tempo and dance rhythms. Working through the lower level dances also provides a good introduction and development of basic partnering skills--and partnering skills for dance are different than partnering skills for pairs.

Even a lot of high level freestylers don't have good expression/timing to music that could be used for dance (Ice dance or dancesport). Plus, while a lot of high level freestylers may take off-ice dance training, it's generally not dancesport-oriented.

BTW, I have seen high level freestylers work their way through dance tests. They may have the power, and generally the edge control, but they frequently have poor posture (they tend to "ostrich" forwards at the waist). It takes time to develop the skills to properly lead (or follow) a dance partner....even if one can technically execute the dance pattern steps correctly.

backspin

11-06-2002, 09:29 AM

ITA, jenlyon--

last year I was coaching a high level freestyle skater, who was through her senior moves, & who decided to work on her dances.

We had to start all over at the very basics, from forward stroking on up, to revamp her posture & technique. She learned very fast, but she still had to re-learn just about everything.

NiceIce

11-06-2002, 03:52 PM

But the point is that we have a mini crisis in Pairs and Dance, and we need to get rid of roadblocks like expecting a high level freeskater to begin at prepreliminary dance tests if they choose to switch over or to compete in both dance and singles.
For a guy to go back and look like a fool doing a "baby" dance takes alot of courage...an adult can see it as a simple step toward completing requirements, but the average teenage guy will see it as a very good reason not to even start dancing.
I have heard several say it already.
"I'm not gonna do the Dutch Waltz!" but they want to do the Paso!
Well, you can learn dance posture with any dance.
A very strong skater will go thru those tests much quicker than the kids who only do icedance.
I think icedancers who are not strong skaters eventually show it in the lack of complexity in their freedance anyway.
Dance will be better in this country I think, when we actually get more good skaters involved, and that means strong singles skaters switching over to dance or doing both in their teens.
It has to be marketed to those skaters.

Mazurka Girl

11-06-2002, 04:12 PM

"But the point is that we have a mini crisis in Pairs and Dance, and we need to get rid of roadblocks like expecting a high level freeskater to begin at prepreliminary dance tests if they choose to switch over or to compete in both dance and singles."

ITA. While needing to work on basics may be true for some freestyle skaters, it is certainly not true for all them. Want an example of a skater who does freestyle but has beautiful flow, edges & timing? Kevin Curtis. Such a skater would be a total asset to anybody's dance team & could easily compete junior or senior level with a year's work. Should skaters like this have to waste precious time on beginner preliminary dances because a collective group of lower level skaters, select competitors who don't want the competition, or other USFSA people with special interests insist "it's good for them"? Many skaters have already received training in off ice dance, ballet (upper body carriage), ensemble skating & other areas. They already have good timing & can count music when they come to dance, & are often much more capable of it than a number of ice dancers. It really depends on the situation.

If a skater is provided the opportunity but is not proficient at the mid-upper dance skills, then they will fail the test & have to go back & work on basics. Those particular skaters wouldn't be that different from skaters who don't really work on moves but believe in taking MIF tests over & over again because they think they're easy to pass. It's a problem with the individual skater & coach that shouldn't reflect on the whole USFSA MIF program.

Allowing accomplished skaters to start at a higher level for dance would encourage more interest among a target group of skaters & save a lot of unnecessary training time & expense for those who could really be assets to the USFSA's dance program. It could even be qualified by saying the skater has to be reviewed & approved by a high level judge or panel of judges before beginning such a track.

Gary Cochran

11-06-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by kia
Having a basis in figure skating is helpful for dancers but even though senior level figure skaters may be strong skaters, the lower level dances often teach skills that free skaters may lack eg steps that are not commonly done in free skating. Also the posture for dance is different than that for freeskating. If you want results on an international level as well as getting boys into the sport they must be taught the basics and they need to have pride in what they are doing.

Dance needs to be marketed properly. It should be shown to be just as difficult a discipline as freeskating and one which requires specific talents. Boys should see this as a sport to be proud of, not a sport for failed figue skaters which is how many boys perceive it now.
Although not common, and not recommended for most ice dancers, you may be interested in the path Melissa Ralph took, relative to test dances. In Simsbury, CT. she passed the first level of dances, up to silver, or novice, in about 3 months. She was just passing time until she recovered from an ankle injury so she could resume pairs skating. We offered to buy her a T-shirt that read, "I'm not an ice dancer". Even though Emilie (Nussear) was a good friend, she had no intention of following her choice of skating discipline. She came to Detroit to find a pairs partner, and Johnny Johns asked her if she would talk to Igor Shpilband about dance. She agreed, not having any idea who Igor was! She couldn't find a pairs partner, and Igor convinced her to try ice dance at the DSC. She arrived at the DSC in the summer of '99, and trained individually with Igor intensely from September '99 to March, '00 when Ryan O'Meara came to the DSC to be her partner. She did not work on a single test dance; only carriage, edges, form, strength, and stroking. Igor doesn't teach test dances, just ice dancing.

Ralph and O'Meara progressed satisfactorily as a team and they decided to go to Lake Placid in 2000, just to do a FD. The judges thought they were exciting and wanted to send them to JGP events that year. Igor refused, knowing how inexperienced this team was. However, he agreed to let them compete in USA events, even though he normally wants to coach a team a year before they compete. The first big event for them was Mids in November, 2000. Igor pushed Ryan and Melissa to work on an OD, a FD, and Elizabeth Coates worked on the compulsories. Guess what? They ignored the test dances. We really worried about that, but we assumed these coaches knew what they were doing. Finally, just before Mids, Melissa had to learn, and pass, 6 test dances in three weeks in order to compete at the Junior level with Ryan. She was tested for three dances on two successive Saturdays, each one singly and then with Ryan as a partner. We didn't know if she could pass, but Igor considered testing a simple exercise. Melissa just had to memorize the steps. Everything else had been taught to her by Igor as basic ice dancing. Turns out he was right. Melissa passed with raves from the judges on her tests. But, I hope she never has to do that again. My point is that low level dances don't teach ice dancing, coaches do.

I agree that high level singles or pairs skaters should be able to enter ice dancing without going through trivial dance steps, but not without demonstrating their ability at ice dance moves at some higher level.

Ice dancing is a very difficult discipline, even though it's not appreciated as such. It requires more stamina than singles, and as much strength and body control as pairs. After Melissa's first few sessions with Igor, she told us that it was the hardest thing she had ever done in skating, and that included all the hard effort she had put into singles and pairs.

-Gary

what?meworry?

11-07-2002, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Gary Cochran
... She did not work on a single test dance; only carriage, edges, form, strength, and stroking. Igor doesn't teach test dances, just ice dancing...
I agree that high level singles or pairs skaters should be able to enter ice dancing without going through trivial dance steps, but not without demonstrating their ability at ice dance moves at some higher level.

Ice dancing is a very difficult discipline, even though it's not appreciated as such. It requires more stamina than singles, and as much strength and body control as pairs. After Melissa's first few sessions with Igor, she told us that it was the hardest thing she had ever done in skating, and that included all the hard effort she had put into singles and pairs.
Gary

you got that right! you don't need to "do dances" to become a dancer. it is incredibly more difficult than most folk realize. and those kids who are dedicated to dance, because they love it, know this.

"there be magic here" because why else would these young'uns with stars in their eyes want to dance. the truely talented and dedicated dancers would dance on ice whether or not it was an olympic sport.

go dance! thanks, gram'pa gary, for your insights!

jenlyon60

11-07-2002, 04:48 AM

The key thing here is that she worked on skills used in ice dance....towards competing as an ice dancer. And she'd had a good foundation in Simsbury. Plus a lot of natural talent.

I've seen kids who have done syncro and done MITF through Novice level take up dance. Typically they whip through the low level dances, but it catches up somewhere around the EW or Silvers. OTOH, I saw an adult who had passed Senior MIF test Pre-Silvers the other week. Gorgeous dances with fabulous control.

The average freestyler wanting to compete dance would need to find a Shpilband or similar coach with a similar focus, to work on the basics.

In the UK test stream, besides the CDs, they have a separate Dance Moves track (this moves track is different than the Field Moves for freestylers).

I still don't think the CDs should be ditched entirely. But then I have issues with kids rushing through MIF tests, so they can "concentrate" on freestyle. And then they join the injury train. Besides the foundation in edge and body control that figures gave, I also suspect that having to pass the figure tests (especially the upper level tests) slowed down the development enough to allow a growing body to catch up to the demands being placed on it.

Originally posted by Gary Cochran
She did not work on a single test dance; only carriage, edges, form, strength, and stroking. Igor doesn't teach test dances, just ice dancing.

I agree that high level singles or pairs skaters should be able to enter ice dancing without going through trivial dance steps, but not without demonstrating their ability at ice dance moves at some higher level.

Ice dancing is a very difficult discipline, even though it's not appreciated as such. It requires more stamina than singles, and as much strength and body control as pairs. After Melissa's first few sessions with Igor, she told us that it was the hardest thing she had ever done in skating, and that included all the hard effort she had put into singles and pairs.

kia

11-07-2002, 04:55 AM

She did not work on a single test dance; only carriage, edges, form, strength, and stroking. Igor doesn't teach test dances, just ice dancing.

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Igor was teaching her the posture and steps needed for those dances that is why she passed them with little extra effort.

NiceIce

11-07-2002, 04:31 PM

I agree Mazurka!(again8O ) Kevin is perfect for pairs or dance,
and Gary's comments spell out the truth.
Good strong skaters in their teens, with quality coaching, have great potential as icedancers or pairs partners , even if they have only done singles for the past 10 years.

habanero

11-08-2002, 12:14 AM

There are other dancers out here on the West Coast who have tested up in Dance very quickly too. I believe one of the Junior dancers actually began her first Dance lesson and wound up passing all the tests through Novice FD in just 3 months. No prior dance lessons at all. She was a Junior Nationals freeskater prior to that.

From what I've heard, Sergei and Marina do not teach the compulsories for tests either. I keep hearing that their skaters never do more than a single pattern until right before competition. This is just about the complete opposite from what the usual US Dance coach does. Like, Igor, the emphasis is on control and edges -- not compulsories.

The story I heard from a well placed Judge, somewhat older than myself, was that the low compulsories were introduced to provide a completely separate track for beginning skaters. That is why so much time is spent on stroking, rolls and simple 3 turns.

It would seem that a higher level crossover in Dance should be permissible for COMPETITIVE freestylers. I'm not so sure that would work well for those who are not competitive.