Hughes - Posture

[CMc]

Originally posted by RobinA
Heck, she could take this time to practice good posture.

For the love of Mike!! When was the last time you saw this young lady dragging her knuckles on the ice??:roll:

[RobinA]

I've never seen her dragging her knuckles on the ice. But great figure skating sets a little higher standard than simply not dragging her knuckles. For me, anyway. Call me a perfectionist.

[CMc]

Well then call me a perfectionist of imperfection, because sometimes it's the things that are slightly imbalanced that balance people. Maybe not so with the technical aspects of skating, but maybe more the artistic side.

[Hannahclear]

If she is well enough to skate, I think it would be a good idea to spend some serious time dedicated to her stroking and posture. It would be good conditioning and keep her in shape as well.

She does still need work in this area, her posture at Campbells' hasn't yet improved, though I think her new program suits her very well.

[proam]

I wish someone would alert Sarah to this Board to let her know bout all the helpful suggestions on how improve her posture. :roll:

There has not been a year that Sarah has not shown improvement in all aspects of her skating, which seem to be her character.

I sure Sarah is doing what is right for Sarah in regards to her injury, other aspects of her skating or her life, as they say you can’t argue with success. :P :)

[CMc]

OK, I'll say it one last time, and I'll let it go after that.

There is NOTHING WRONG with this young lady's posture. I can't believe after all the years of her maturity and growing and refinement of both her and her skating, you guys are still seeing a gawky kid.

I know this is a public forum, but I feel I still have to take a stand.

[RobinA]

Who said anything about gawky or a kid? Sarah rounds her shoulders, which is not all that great looking in figure skating. She has improved, but she still has a ways to go. I like a lot of things about Sarah's skating, but her posture must improve if she wants to be considered a great figure skater. My point was that being injured, if she can't devote as much time to jumping, now might be a good time to work on the shoulders.

[CMc]

Originally posted by RobinA
Who said anything about gawky or a kid? Sarah rounds her shoulders, which is not all that great looking in figure skating. She has improved, but she still has a ways to go. I like a lot of things about Sarah's skating, but her posture must improve if she wants to be considered a great figure skater. My point was that being injured, if she can't devote as much time to jumping, now might be a good time to work on the shoulders.
OK, sorry, I have to vent yet again...
What in Sam Hill is "rounding your shoulders"?? Letting them rest or raising them? News flash--Shoulders are round. And I don't see any other skaters NOT doing either of those two at any given time, and besides, I thought posture was how high you held your head.
And perhaps nobody on this forum used the term "gawky kid", but I know for a fact I've seen it used against Sarah on other forums.

[Hannahclear]

Rounding your shoulders primarily affects posture and carriage in skating. Instead of holding the shoulders back, to give the body a nice line, they slump forward, creating a pumping effect. Sarah does this the most of any top lady and it affects her presentation.

Of course, no one is saying that Sarah is not a good skater. Personally, I just think she should take advantage of not being able to jump, which she does more and better than most, and probably affects working on stroking, and practice her flow and improve her posture. Maybe even consult another coach.

[KBW]

This man is rounding his shoulders:

Very exaggerated example (http://www.pcopco.com/_Posture_Control_Orthotics__Po/Posture_Restructuring_and_Cont/Posture_Restructuring/bad_posture_photos_2/bad_poor_posture.jpg)

This man is not:

standing straight (http://www.pcopco.com/_Posture_Control_Orthotics__Po/Posture_Restructuring_and_Cont/Posture_Restructuring/Good_Posture_Photos/good_posture_male_50_years_old.jpg)

Note Sarah:

example (http://www.mscnet.com/jenny/mkf/2002nats/ladies/shughes-fs08.jpg)

Note Sasha:

example 2 (http://www.mscnet.com/jenny/mkf/2002nats/ladies/scohen-sp05.jpg)


I think that that's all anybody is saying in terms of posture, not a personal attack in that respect.

[AxelAnnie22]

KBW

Thank you for making it so clear and so simple.:)

[duane]

THAT picture is an example of what people refer to as sarah's "bad posture"??

tough crowd!

[lBrokenAnkle]

I agree, Duane, LOL.

I don't think saying someone needs to work on her posture is a terrible thing either. Sarah has improved her posture a lot in the years she's been skating seniors and this picture, which seems to be when she is finished skating and more relaxed as opposed to the one of Sasha, who is clearly in full skate mode, probably shows an improvement over previous years, but it could be tighter. Just as Sasha has improved her edges a lot, but should keep working on that. I assume both are doing exactly that and the assumption that Sarah isn't seems odd, considering she has contined to improve each year.

Laura

[KBW]

Don't think that I haven't noticed Sarah's improvements! I think she has been amazingly consistant in her improvement as well as her competitive performance record. I didn't want to spend a million years searching for a picture to make her look bad, because really it's the entire performance that has to be looked at. Maybe she looks fabulous for most of it, and then she loses concentration on keeping her shoulders back for a minute to concentrate on something else - understandable, of course, as physical habits are hard to break.

I was really just trying to point out the rounded shoulders definition. Sometimes you'd think, based on people's discussion, that Sarah looked like the exaggerated one though! :p

[adrianchew]

I've not seen the GE ad on TV, but in the GE Breat Cancer Awareness video clip I saw, it looks like Sarah's overall posture has improved? :?:

[adrianchew]

Split off the posture portion. Hopefully we can have a good discussion, and then, leave this topic alone till we see Sarah next. Let's not turn every other topic on Sarah into one of posture. ;) ~adrainchew~

Perceptions about her posture is probably affected by her height and body build... she's rather tall for a skater, and she's not of muscular built. I can't think of a direct skater comparison - Andrea Gardiner is tallk, but she's got a different body built. Svetlana Khorkina is probably the best example I can think of nearing a Sarah comparison - Khorkina is tall for a gymnast (both she and Sarah are about the same height, slender arms and legs).

Khorkina has learned to use her height and body build to her advantage, where perhaps Sarah might be able to improve on her presentation for greater impact.

The actual problem I've seen (in the past, we've seen too little to tell of improvements for this season) is a tendency to be "lazy" on extension... look for photos of Sarah, Sasha, Michelle doing spirals. Look for muscle tension - and you immediately see the difference.

How does one improve this? Exercise, off ice, building up strength. How many times have you seen Michelle and Sasha being filmed or pictured doing a lot of stretching and other exercises off ice, in comparison to Sarah? If I'm not mistaken, all of us should have seen a lot more of Michelle and Sasha stretching off-ice.

Some Sarah fans - help me here... do you know of the details of her off-ice training (if any?). The lack of focus on off-ice training is a major area of neglect amongst many skaters. With the kind of commute Sarah had to endure + school and other commitments, I doubt if she had as much time to spend on this previously.

If you want an example of the improvements, look at Sasha before her back injury and after her comeback. Once of the areas she used to neglect (except for pilates), was off-ice strength exercises. As a result of the injury, she was pushed to develop strength to help prevent future injuries... but the improvement in extension is noticeable. She may have had amplitude and flexibility (from pilates training) prior, but the quality of extensions reached a new height with the added strength from off-ice exercises.

I don't know when exactly Michelle started working on her spirals, but the extension she has in her spirals is very obvious. Its just not possible to have great extension without the strength to do so.

Last word of clarification before I go to sleep - the extension is not how high the free leg gets in a spiral, but how "extended" it is... and the easiest way for me to tell with skaters is to look for muscle tension. Its more obvious in photos than it is on TV.

[Marie]

MY .02 :)

My first impression of Sarah at campbells was her colt type posture. It is hard to explain but arms & legs at times seem to be going different directions. Oddly enough though , she seemed to have a good presentation.

Sarah reminds me of the expression of a child that "learns to walk before crawl". She did not have as elegant presentation as Sasha or MK. Again, this is just my opinion.!!!

[JDC1]

I have the same problem as Sarah, rounded shoulders and it's not easy to fix but I think it behooves you to work on it. I have lifted weights and worked on my posture most of my adult life and my shoulders still round forward some and when I skate I tighten my abs and pull my shoulders down and back hoping that I don't look slumpy on the ice.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Marie
MY .02 :)

My first impression of Sarah at campbells was her colt type posture. It is hard to explain but arms & legs at times seem to be going different directions. Oddly enough though , she seemed to have a good presentation.

Sarah reminds me of the expression of a child that "learns to walk before crawl". She did not have as elegant presentation as Sasha or MK. Again, this is just my opinion.!!! I think you said that quite well. "Coltish" is a good word, and you amplified it well.

I think there are two separate things, that are being referred to as "posture".

The First is what you point out. Sarah, if y'all will recall, was a great jumper before she was a great skater. Remember how she used to rush from jump to jump. She even talked about needing to work on her "in-betweens". The lack of muscle tension as seen in the free leg in her spiral, is the most clear example. The movement does not generate from her "core", and extend with tensil strength, out through her toes. She gets her leg up there, her flexibility is fine, but the leg is not straight, leaving it kind of hanging there. Her arms kind of go one way, her legs another. She gets to the pose she is supposed to end up in, but sometimes neither the transition nor the finished position are "finished".

As I have said before, she is learning. She is improving, to be sure. But, in many of her movements she does not have the kind of gorgeous flow nor position of Angela, Michelle or Sasha.....even AP. She is a bit like a German Shephard puppy who has not quite grown into his body. Hasn't quite learned to use all the parts to their greatest efficiency.

And, let me add, that I think part of this is driven by Sarah's attention on the jumps (which is the biggest bang for the buck), combined with music selections that are difficult for her dramatically, to interpret. You can see her trying, thinking, remembering (that is where you get the "posing". The best example of Sarah NOT working at the interpretation is her OLY LP. She was gorgeous! It was difficult to tell where one element ended and the other began.

POSTURE: Sarah tends to hunch her shoulders. This does NOT have to do with her height as it affects figure skating. I am 5'10". I danced (ballet) for years. There were limitations as to what I could do well.....holding a pose - great extension. Fast movements were harder. When I was a teen I slumped. Finally, I straightened up. Now, I get comments (in my riding) about my wonderful posture (I always laugh, remembering my Dad coming up behind me, placing his hands, one on each shoulder, pulling my shoulders back, and telling me to stand straight!)

Tall skaters have a problem with jumps (if they have a problem), not with extension or posture. Long, lanky bodies do not spin as quickly as short compact ones. (Think physics here). Also, tall bodies are more difficult to organize for quick stacatto movements, and tall bodies were not designed to be flung across the ice (or ballet stage) in great leaps and turns (think split falling leaf).

Sarah has a tendency to slouch through the shoulders and pump her upper body. I don't know if this happens because she is concentrating (you know when you are tense, you shoulders sort of rise up?), or because she thinks (mistakenly) that it adds to a dramatic interpretation (in her SP last year, there was a place where Sarah skated to one end of the ice, and leaned forward a bit to make a dramatic movement with her arms, and rounded her shoulders so badly I cringed each time). I always thought that that particular thing had to do with Sarah trying to "emote"

Now, all of this is not a bash toward Sarah. It is a discussion and criticism. We could do the same thing about Michelle's speed, Sasha's lack inconsistency, Irina's free leg in her spiral, etc. It is just a place she needs to improve. The thing that is the most bothersome to me, is that the shoulders are really easy to fix. I don't think it is an inherent posture issue. When Sarah is standing still she stands straight. Same with the free leg in the spiral.

[Blue Ridge]

A whole thread on Sarah's posture! What a fixation! :roll: :lol:

[backspin]

Different people see different things in part due to their own background & experiences.

People w/ dance and/or skating training will pick up on little flaws more quickly because they have a trained eye. I'm guessing the people saying there's nothing wrong w/ her posture don't have the background to see it as clearly.

Sarah's posture has gotten better; I still see a lack of connectedness through her core, which results in the pumping w/ her back, which accentuates a rounded shoulder. Stroking technique would be good for her, as it would be for just about anyone! There is always room for improvement.

All this said, I think there are many great things about Sarah & her skating, & it certainly isn't a horrible thing to comment on an area that could use some strengthening.

[loveskating]

One wonders why not just say "posture" instead of "posture and carriage" in the presentation criteria? I guess because "carriage" is more all encompassing as to the line of ALL the skating.

There ARE certain inbetweens that you just wish skaters with less than steller carriage would not do.

I remember when Irina's turns used to lurch off center, as she was doing them so fast and not paying attention to details...made me feel like she was a thundering herd, LOL, she went buy so fast and rushed everything, so there was no nuance. So I really noticed when she got hers fully straight and beautiful, which is when her presentation marks went up.

She always had great edges and jumps though.

[Maximillian]

Originally posted by backspin
Different people see different things in part due to their own background & experiences.

People w/ dance and/or skating training will pick up on little flaws more quickly because they have a trained eye. I'm guessing the people saying there's nothing wrong w/ her posture don't have the background to see it as clearly.



I agree with the above statement. However, I will say that even with an untrained eye, the spectator knows that something isn't quite right.

I think overall Sarah's posture is just fine. If she never fixes it to the point where it isn't noticable, I really don't think it will hurt her. The problem is that she is competing and compared against the American girls who for the most part have the best posture and carriage out there. It's, historically, something that's expected of them much like the amazing spiral position or the layback position.

I wonder if Sarah doesn't have a mild form of scoliosis, I do and the only way that I can maintain a straight back and upright shoulders is to be hyper aware of it. I think in times of pressure, Sarah might be worried about other things and the carriage drops off. Basically, it might not be an innate thing as it is with Michelle and Sasha. Her body just might not be built to go straight up and down and no matter how much core work she does, it might never improve to the point of Sasha or Michelle.

Still, compared to most European girls, her posture and carriage is perfectly fine and she has so many other assets to her skating that I can't imagine that it will ever do her too much damage.

[Badams]

ok...we get it! *some* people think sarah has bad posture! :roll: i personally don't think it's THAT bad! i've seen worse! i think that all in all she's a very talented skater and a strong competitor. nobody is perfect. nobody has it all all the time! each and every skater has a ton of things that need to be worked on and improved. even your respective favorites. that doesn't mean we have to beat the subject to death! can you imagine a million topics called "michelle's slow spins" or "irina's sloppy presentation" or "sasha's inconsistancy"...oh wait, we HAVE seen these things a million times! :lol: i can't wait for the next controversy...

[Chico]

I agree with Maximillian. I have a sway back a little, and thinking about tucking my butt under when I skate is work for me. (Keeping Sarah's shoulders back must be hard for her.) The days your tired, feeling unwell, stressed, or challenged by new skills this goes out the window. Sarah is at a level in skating where this should have been pounded into her head. She may need to work extra hard at this, but she is capable of doing it. The "little" things do add or detract from a package.

Chico

[CMc]

Originally posted by KBW
This man is rounding his shoulders:

Very exaggerated example (http://www.pcopco.com/_Posture_Control_Orthotics__Po/Posture_Restructuring_and_Cont/Posture_Restructuring/bad_posture_photos_2/bad_poor_posture.jpg)

This man is not:

standing straight (http://www.pcopco.com/_Posture_Control_Orthotics__Po/Posture_Restructuring_and_Cont/Posture_Restructuring/Good_Posture_Photos/good_posture_male_50_years_old.jpg)

Note Sarah:

example (http://www.mscnet.com/jenny/mkf/2002nats/ladies/shughes-fs08.jpg)

Note Sasha:

example 2 (http://www.mscnet.com/jenny/mkf/2002nats/ladies/scohen-sp05.jpg)


I think that that's all anybody is saying in terms of posture, not a personal attack in that respect.
Oh, PUHLEEZE! I appreciate the visuals, but you can't be serious!
First of all Sarah's not a guy, and she's not nearly in as bad a shape as that guy.

[RobinA]

The posture and extension required of skaters and dancers IS hard work. In Sarah's case, I think the posture and the "lazy extension" that one poster mentioned are part of the same problem - her positions don't come from the core.

For somebody with rounded shoulders who WAS able to improve them to the point where there was no longer an issue, see early Irina S. She used to make me hyperventilate her shoulders were so bad. After her "comeback," she may not have had Dorothy Hamill posture, but she solved the problem to the point where it wasn't noticable anymore.