Olymipic Gold Medalists - Should they be required to retire?

[AxelAnnie22]

OK - just stick with me for a minute, and let's focus the discussion.
A. This does NOT have to do with any one particular skater....it is not a vendetta or a bash!
B. Think about this WITHOUT "people should be able to choose what they want to do". Sure they should. But, that isn't the topic.

OK - I think we can all agree that the Olympic Gold Medal is the pinancle of success in figure skating. One can argue that it shouldn't be, or is just another competition, etc., with with the fame and $$$$$ involved, it simply is the crown.

We haven't seen an OLY winner go on to compete in a very long time. And, watching what Sarah is going through, trying to get back in the competition groove, I can see why.

When you win gold, you are "crowned" for life. On the one hand, why do anything to tarnish that? Why not just enjoy all of it - It is not going to come your way again. It has got to be the MOST exciting time of a skater's life.

Also, I can see making a case for "OK - move on," for a couple of reasons.
1. It allows others to have a chance.
2. Allows the focus of figure skating to shift to others. As long as a current OLY Champ is competing, it is going to be them - and under a microscope.
3. The current OLY champ has little to gain, and much to lose. Sure, they can win more titles, but every bobble or loss will be blown WAY out of proportion.
4. Most importantly: The wear and tear on those bodies is horrid. After the win, they can move on to Pro skating and give their bodies a rest.
5. Pro skating just might improve.

Well, interested in a lively discussion.

[adrianchew]

For me eligible skating has always been better - unless pro competitions start running under more strict rules and guidelines, pushing the limits - it just can't compare.

There seems to be no drive/motivation these days for double Olympic gold (Aleksei might try - good for him!). I'd like to see a few double Olympic gold medalists in different disciplines in my lifetime for figure skating.

But there comes a point when wear & tear (especially on ladies) take the toll. I do think skaters such as Sarah (who is still really young) have a shot at this, but that would mean sacrificing and shelving other plans (studies, etc)... so it boils down to a matter of life priorities for the individuals.

Someone like Aleksei has much less to shelve, should he choose to continue the focus on eligible competition for another 4 years.

[SJ82]

I have to agree with all 5 of your points. I never understood criticism of skaters who go pro after winning Oly gold.

[danibellerika]

I agree with Adrian. It depends on what's driving them and what's on their plate.

[A.H.Black]

I think your argument has merit. Here is another point of view.

The pro's had a chance to do something with that side of the sport in the mid '90's If Scott, Brian, Katarina, Kirsti, Torvill and Dean, and all the rest had banded together to create some sort of legitimate professional organization, with legitimate competitions, something akin to tennis, there would have been a chance to stave of the ISU. They didn't. Instead they allowed television and promoters to make a hodge podge out of the sport side of things and they lost a lot of credibility. I'm speaking of the sport side of things here, not the entertainment side.

The ISU with all its faults, not only made it easier to remain eligible; they also made it much more lucrative to do so. These days it would be foolish to "go pro" unless you are really ready to. Also, remember, that once a skater does go pro these days, there is no way to go back.

I remember the discussion about up and comers getting their chance in '93 when the pro's were allowed back in. I fall on the other side of that argument. I want to see the best skating I can see. I want to see the best skaters compete against each other if they are 14 or 40. If a skater can stay competitive for that long, and they want to, more power to them.

Just a year ago we wondered if Sarah Hughes would even have a chance in the Olympic year because of the perceived "bias" in favor of the more experienced skaters. Should she now retire? Only if she wants to. Sale and Pelletier wanted to - fine. This is an issue for us to discuss but not for officals to dictate.

Finally, I know you didn't want this to be about skaters choosing what they want to do, but it has to be. All the issues about wear and tear on bodies and allowing the focus to shift etc. are all issues of personal choice; the skater's, not ours. I would certainly rather it be that way than dictated by some arbitrary rule.

As long as skaters stay eligable, I get to see great skating and that's all I want.

[Hannahclear]

I think some sort of Pro competition series would give skaters a reason to go pro. Not cheesefests, but real professional competitions, with like a 4 jump limit or something. why didn't such a thing happen in the 90's, was there even talk of it?

Right now, going pro is to walk down the path to oblivion. It shouldn't be that way, things need to change.

[loveskating]

There are valid points on both sides of this issue, so I'll just be VERY personal about it...

I personally get bored after I've seen a skater skate for 4 years or so, unless, like Kurt Browning and Ilia Kulik, they reinvent themselves as pros and do many different, difficult things.

Perhaps I never get bored with some element a skater does better than anyone else (Lucinda's spins, Boitano's death drop, Kulik's 3 axel, Sato's footwork, etc.) but overall, I honestly do get bored.

Skaters each and every one have their own personal characteristics which they bring to each program...and while its fun to see them grow up, to find themselves, to fully realize their potential and individuality (which for me does not necessarily come down to medals), after they have done so, I like to see them freed from the constraints of eligible competition and be able to do more creative things in their programs, and I feel that Kurt Browning and Ilia Kulik have done this to the max, for which I am very grateful and inspired.

Needless to say, I have adored them both as amateurs and as pros.

[Dustin]

I don't think they should be required to retire, but for most cases, I think it would be smart. The pro world is weak, but with more big-name skaters retiring, do you really think it would be so weak? I think if a few big name skaters that would like to retire but do not want to turn pro because of the lack of competitions, did turn pro the competitions would come as fans of these skaters would still want to see them and pay to see them.

[Lee]

I think *requiring* anyone to retire takes away from the idea of 'sport.' If someone is cranky because someone else is hanging on and others aren't getting their chance, then it's up to those others just get good enough to beat the 'hangers-on,' isn't it?

Sport is about being the best -- if we require the 'best' to retire after reaching an arbitrary pinnacle (some do NOT feel the Olympics is the best judge of who's the best skater), then it no longer meets the ideal of true sport. One who steps into the spot of the retiree hasn't won because they ARE the best; they won by default because we required the BEST to leave.

Not good...not fair...

[amethyst]

No, I don't think any skater should be required to retire at any point. If a skater truly loves to compete then forcing them to give up their eligibility is like punishment for success. Makes no sense, and when you talk about FORCING something on someone then individual choice does have something to do with it - you can't leave that out of the equation. Besides, how can you say that it's the single most important moment or the only achievment a skater wants? Irina has always said that regardless of the Olympics, she wanted a World title. Now that she has one, should she have to step down because it was her biggest moment? And Sarah is Olympic champ, but she has never even won her own country's National title much less Worlds.

My opinions, point by point:

1. It allows others to have a chance.

The others have a chance right now. There's no reason that one skater should have to step down in order for another to win. That wouldn't be true competition - if a skater wants to stand on top of the podium, skate well and earn it just like everyone else.

2. Allows the focus of figure skating to shift to others. As long as a current OLY Champ is competing, it is going to be them - and under a microscope.

This again smacks of having to step down and give someone else a turn in the spotlight. This is a SPORT, not an elementary school play. It's not the responsibility of the Olympic champion to take the focus off of themselves, nor do I believe that they will be the only one under a microscope. Sure, a lot of the hype will be on Sarah and Alexei - but there will also be a lot of focus on Plushy, Tim, Sasha, Michelle and Irina, if nothing else because the general public will want to see if someone can "dethrone" the Oly champ. It ups the excitement level and brings more publicity to the sport which is a good thing - especially in a post-Olympic year where interest wanes.

3. The current OLY champ has little to gain, and much to lose. Sure, they can win more titles, but every bobble or loss will be blown WAY out of proportion.

No one but the individual skater can decide what they have to gain and lose. For top skaters, whether or not they win Olympic gold, every bobble and loss is analyzed anyway. And there will always be someone saying that even if they win, they were held up or the judging was rigged. Criticism comes along with success in most any sport.

4. Most importantly: The wear and tear on those bodies is horrid. After the win, they can move on to Pro skating and give their bodies a rest.

The wear and tear is bad for any skater, not just an Olympic champ. A Gold medalist could go their whole life without injury and someone who never medals at a competition could go from problem to problem. There are a lot of variables. So someone trains their entire life for success in the sport, through pain and injury at times, and once they win one specific competition their forcibly sidelined to rest? Makes no sense to me.

5. Pro skating just might improve.

I think it's going to take a lot more to improve pro skating than just forcing the Gold medalists of each discipline from one competition out of 4 years to give up their eligibility. Out of those 6 skaters every 4 years, who's to say that they would all want to compete on a pro level? Some might retire altogether. Some might want to strictly do shows. For instance A/P, B/S and S/P all moved on from eligible skating. Under the "pro skating might improve" reasoning, if only Sarah and Alexei had gone pro too, then things would be radically different on the pro circuit? I don't see it.

It is an interesting discussion and I look forward to seeing everyone's viewpoints.

[Amy L]

I agree with everything Lee said. She got to this post before me. :)

Requiring someone to leave because people are tired of them winning all of the time is just not a good idea. They win because they are the best, and that's it. Going pro is a personal decision. Sometimes "the best" stay in, and sometimes the not-so-great leave just because they don't want to compete anymore. A skater being forced to leave because they won the Olympics, whether or not they just got lucky on one particular night or if they really truly are the best is illogical and unfair. Just because someone won the Olympics doesn't mean that they can't grow and become even better in the elligible ranks.

I'm actually for no borders whatsoever. I think skating should be completely open, but this is not the thread for that. ;)

[Badams]

i agree with lee also. it's not a very sportman like thought. it's like "congrats. you win the gold. you're the best in your sport right now. don't let the door hit you on your way out. now it's time for MY favorite to win!" not a good idea.

[nits]

This makes me wonder what someone might be afraid a skater may accomplish in a long career. Some may be intimidated, maybe even a bit jealous of an accomplished skater.
I think it would be a mistake to force someone to retire. Who knows? Maybe they'd eventually be limiting skaters to one National, Grand Prix and World Title. I think limiting skaters ablilities would be a set back for the sport.

[Inside Edge]

I don't think that on Olympic title means what it once did. This is especially true, if a skater has not been on the scene for a long time. An Olympic gold medalist who never wins a national or world title will never be regarded in the same light as skater who has multiple titles. This is not to say that they did not deserve to win Olympic Gold, the Olympics is not a lifetime achievment award. I am speaking in terms of the "figure skating community", not the general public.

I believe that Sarah could increase her stature in the figure skating community if she were to continue on, if only for a couple of years. A national and world title would show that she did not just get lucky off of the mistakes of others. Another example would be Ilia - he will never have the stature of Yagudin or of Kurt Browning.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Inside Edge
I don't think that on Olympic title means what it once did. This is especially true, if a skater has not been on the scene for a long time. An Olympic gold medalist who never wins a national or world title will never be regarded in the same light as skater who has multiple titles. This is not to say that they did not deserve to win Olympic Gold, the Olympics is not a lifetime achievment award. I am speaking in terms of the "figure skating community", not the general public.
You are probably correct that the medal doesn't mean what it once did. At least not to the American Ladies. They are making so very much muny as "eligible" skaters, that they don't need to wait for that super, special OLY GOLD, to set them off on their road, recoup the enormous espenses, etc., and begin to earn money.

As far as adding titles. I am unsure of two things.

1. Have there been any OLY Gold Medalists that have NO National or World Titles under their belts, aside from Sarah?

2. Although a complete resume is wonderful, I think when you are introduced and remembered, it is as the Olympic Gold Medalist. I don't really think, when Kristi, Ilia, Tara, Katerina, or any of them, step on the ice anything other than that one win is announced. So, I am not sure it adds anything, really.


As to PRO competitions. They took a dive after Nagano. In an effort to keep eligible skaters "IN" the Skating world came up those pro-ams. Huge mistake! All tht did was water down the pros. I remember when the World Pro Campionship was really important, and wonderful to watch. I would love to see Tara, Ilia, Michelle, Sarah, etc., skating at that level. Look at how much some of the pro skaters have improved as they skated on. There is so much left to do, to learn, to try. I think it would be a plus.

[duane]

axelannie, this is a great thread.

i agree that the Olympic gold is the pinnacle of success in figure skating. however, i dont think Olympic gold medalists should be required to retire (but at the same time, i think Pro skaters should be able to return to eligible skating!). personally, i rather see two-time Olympic gold medalists like we did in the past.

it's true that we dont see many Olympic gold medalists continuing to remain eligible any more. however, i dont think it's a coincidence that this has been the case since post-92. after the famous WACK in 94, figure skating suddenly became a sport where Olympic medals became much more lucrative--many more endorsements, opportunities, and much larger crowds at skating tours. i think it would be difficult for anyone to continue the hardships of eligible competing. but if they want to, GREAT, and more power to them!

i also think the skating fans have a lot to do with Olympic gold medalists not remaining eligible. with the added fanfare and popularity of the sport, there was added scrutiny. we expect the gold medalists to remain winners, and afterwards to forever compete as well as they did at the Olympics. we expect them to "prove" that they deservedly won the Olympic gold. i think this is our problem, not the skaters' problem. so again, if they are willing to continue to compete, and deal with the scrutiny, why deny them?

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by duane
axelannie, this is a great thread.

i also think the skating fans have a lot to do with Olympic gold medalists not remaining eligible. with the added fanfare and popularity of the sport, there was added scrutiny. we expect the gold medalists to remain winners, and afterwards to forever compete as well as they did at the Olympics. we expect them to "prove" that they deservedly won the Olympic gold. i think this is our problem, not the skaters' problem. so again, if they are willing to continue to compete, and deal with the scrutiny, why deny them?

Very well said. I think that is what I was trying to get to. Everything is so public, so instant, so open to scrutiny. I can't imagine why any skater would remain eligible after OLY Gold. I know they CAN (that's fine) I would love them to (that is personal), but WHY would they?

You summed it up very well. We are the problem.....not the skaters.

Also, I agree that Pros should be able to go back and compete. Why not? As long as everyone is held to the same standard. Since there is no longer the evil "paid" part....(they are all paid) what difference does it make? I would love to see Tara or Oksana come in and mix it up! Or Ilia. Give everyone a run for their money.

[bleu]

I wouldn't use Sarah Hughes as an example here. She is young and can go on. I wouldn't use Alexei Yagudin as an example too because he is at a crossroad - feeling like turning pro but also wanting to get another world title - one more than Dick Button etc. In the case, of Jamie and David - they want to grow in the pro world and know they are are not as young as Sarah Hughes or Alexei Hughes. Beside, they are at a point in their lives when they want to do other things beside competiting. I get the feeling they are happy with what they did in the amatuer.

When you look at all these skaters, you find that they have nothing in common beside an olympics title. Each is at a different point in the skating career. Sarah just started, Alexei is midway and Jame&David are at the end of the amatuer career.

All I am going to say is the skater not the federation or the fans should decide when to retire. After all, it is the skater's career...

[Hannahclear]

I think one way to improve the whole pro-am thing is to open up the proams to all skaters. Have a field of 15 or so, instead of six, let pros come back. Put jump limits in and have a lighter competition where the amateurs can work on MIF and their choreography and the pros will still have a chance. You could call it the "Lighter Side of Skating" circuit, lol

[Mayra]

IMO, No Olympic champions should not be required to retire.


Nobody asks the Lakers to retire their current team to let other basketball teams have a chance to win. Nobody asks Ian Thorpe to retire because he takes attention away from other swimmers. Nobody asks Tiger Woods to retire because every win or loss will be blown out of proportion. The wear and tear will happen whether you are an Olympic Champion or not.

Regardless of what is driving them to compete, I think athletes should be allowed to compete as long as they want to. How competitive they'll be is another matter entirely. ;)

If pro skating really wants to improve, then maybe having the competitions open to a variety or skaters might help. As is, professional skating as shown on tv, is by invite only and those invited are the same from competition to competition. I imagine one thing that makes the American Open so great is the "open" part.

[valuvsmk]

In a word...no.

[loveskating]

"If pro skating really wants to improve, then maybe having the competitions open to a variety or skaters might help. As is, professional skating as shown on tv, is by invite only and those invited are the same from competition to competition. I imagine one thing that makes the American Open so great is the "open" part."

Oh, truly, I so agree...and since skaters usually have at most 3 programs a year, not only do we see the same people over and over again, but the same programs.

This goes double for the pro ams, which seem to have very few pros and lots of amateurs doing watered down versions of their competitive long, short and exhibition programs.

[Scott]

No one should have to retire unless they choose to do so. This is a sport.
Thats they way its works. Can you imagine if tennis players had to retire after winning the French Open or any of the other grand slam events? Maybe the Yankees should be forced to retire because they won the World series.....Oh, and Miami should be out of the running for the College National CHampionships. And what about all those swimmers who have dominated the swimming competitions for so many years !!!!!!!???????

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
As far as adding titles. I am unsure of two things.

1. Have there been any OLY Gold Medalists that have NO National or World Titles under their belts, aside from Sarah?

Robin Cousins, Aleksei Urmanov, and Ilya Kulik never won world titles.

Aleksei Yagudin has never won a Russian national title.

I don't believe Oksana Kazakova ever won either one either.

There are numerous examples of skaters who won the Olympics before having ever won a world title who then went on to win Worlds the next month or the next year. Of the top of my head:

Grishuk & Platov (1994)
Viktor Petrenko (1992)
Katarina Witt (1984)
Dorothy Hamill (1976)
John Curry (1976)
etc.

In some cases these skaters then retired after their one or two big wins, in other cases they continued on for another year or four years or more.

Different skaters with different resumes before and immediately after their Olympic wins, and different goals afterward. Why assume that one size fits all?

[A.H.Black]

THANK YOU Ellyn. I was thinking through that question but didn't want to make the effort. Thanks for doing the homework.

[hydro]

originally posted by Ellyn:
Different skaters with different resumes before and immediately after their Olympic wins, and different goals afterward. Why assume that one size fits all?


i agree with this completely. every skater has different goals in their skating, and to claim that the Olys is the pinnacle is a bit narrow sighted, imo. look at NNN's goals, she said she wants to win two Olympics. the "pinnicale" of every individual skater is different. no doubt that Olympic Gold Medal is at the top of most skater's list, and it is still the most coveted medal among figure skaters, but that doesn't make it the be-all and end-all in figure skating.

that said, i'd rather see skaters improve over the course of a career rather than skate for four years and be done. i would never get bored of solid edges and refined skating that takes a career to get there. for example, i enjoyed Maria Butryskya much more later in her career, same with Irina. imagine if they had only stuck around for 4 years, we would have missed some terrific (and historical) performances.

[Rachel]

I agree that it's our problem, not the skaters'.

If a skater bores me, that's my problem.

If a skater has reached what *I* consider to be the pinnacle of success, that's my perception, and therefore my problem.

If a skater is "preventing" other skaters from winning, that's my problem, too, because *I* am the one who thinks the Olympic gold medalist owes the others a chance. The winner of any given competition is ALWAYS preventing the other skaters from winning, whether that skater is an Olympic gold medalist or not.

If the focus on the Oly champ is too intense, who is it that doing the focusing? We are.

If mistakes the Oly champ make are blown out of proportion, who is blowing them out of proportion? We are.

All athletes put their bodies through a lot of wear and tear. It's what athletes do, whether they win Oly gold or not. I don't think that's a good argument for making someone retire from competition. They would all have to go.

I personally couldn't care less about pro skating, but if pro skating needs improvement, it needs a lot more than the occasional retired Oly champ to bring about changes. For one thing, name any other sport where the pros do LESS athletically than the amateurs. For another, name other sports where the professional competitions are considered less legitimate than the amateur. If I were a skater, I would turn pro only when I was convinced that I had nothing left competitively.

[Lark]

If I had my say, it would go like this:

*If you win an Olympic Gold, you are not allowed to attend another Olympics. You would be considered a Pro for Olympic qualifications, but you would be allowed to attend as many Worlds/Nationals/etc. as you want.

*If you win a Silver or Bronze medal at the Olympics, you would be allowed one more shot at Gold. Same Pro status for Olympics after second shot.

*If you do not medal at Olympics, there is no attendance limits.

That is the way I would do it. If I won Olympic Gold, I would not attend another Olympics, but I would love to try to be 10-times World Champion. I think a skaters greatness is reflected by numerous World titles better than by a one-shot Olympic Gold (ex. Kurt vs. Ilia K.).
Just my opinion, I am not asking anyone to agree.

[duane]

Originally posted by Ellyn
There are numerous examples of skaters who won the Olympics before having ever won a world title who then went on to win Worlds the next month or the next year. Of the top of my head:

Grishuk & Platov (1994)
Viktor Petrenko (1992)
Katarina Witt (1984)
Dorothy Hamill (1976)
John Curry (1976)

another is a young man by the name of Dick Button, who won Olympic gold in 48, and went on to win his first World title that same year.

[speedy]

Geez, requiring somebody to step down like that smacks of Orwellian goverment to me. What other Olympic sport would go for this? I didn't hear anybody complaining when Georg Hackl or Bjorn Dahle or the U.S. men's basketball team won multiple Olympic golds...except of course for the people that lost to them and fans of other competitors. ;) The nature of sport is "competition," not stepping down at your peak so a lesser athlete can have a chance to win a gold medal. I think that's taking good sportsmanship a little too far LOL.

[RoaringSkates]

No, absolutely not. I think that an athlete should be able to compete for as long as they want to. I think that there is room in skating for past winners. If they love to skate, why not keep skating? Even if they stop winning, if they love what they do, I'm glad to see them there. However, they should be judged based upon their current performance, not past glories. If they are really still the best skater, they should win competitions. However, if they've slipped, then newer skaters should be able to move ahead of them.

My favorite example of this is Tatyana Malinina. She did really well, but her performance wasn't as strong in recent years. However, she still won one of the GP series this year (or was it placed - doesn't matter, she did great), and I still really like seeing her out there. Just because she's no longer winning as often doesn't mean that she doesn't add to skating through her participation.

I think that the best athletes in the world should go to the Olympics. This means that, even if a skater won gold once, she should still be able to go to the Olys, and win, if she's still the best four years later.

This is true of all skaters, but especially for female skaters, who now tend to win their gold when they are 15-16 years old. They could still have several years of good skating ahead of them, winning titles, so long as their bodies and their interest holds up.

[loveskating]

I don't think there should be such a rule, don't see any real need for it at the moment, but I don't see how such a requirement would be "Orwellian" any more than proposed term limits on legislators or the statutory limit on Presidential terms is "Orwellian."

Rules are often made in response to phenomena ...so it will be interesting to see how skating as a whole holds up now that basically there are no professional outlets, and one MUST remain eligible to get the big bucks...I've never seen so many Olympic gold medalists claim to be remaining eligible...

As for medals, what do they mean these days? More and more, they seem to reward mere consistency and staying eligible. But take Lucinda Rue...not many medals, but the most incredible spinner we've ever seen. Take Galindo, few medals but the best front catch spin ever until Sasha came along; take Eldredge, not many medals but a great spinner. Medals are not everything, and there are many instances where even gold rewards a less than steller skate, or worse!

Anyway, things have changed and it will be interesting to see what happens, what sort of rules might be necessary to keep the public engaged (or what kind of "fluff", which is what the other sports in America have "evolved" into).

[olivia]

Like others stated above, I don't believe Olympic Champs should be required to retire. There would have to be a purpose for such a rule that would outweigh other interests (like the athlete's choice and fair and open competition). And, for the life of me, I can't come up with a purpose that could/would be so compelling. On the contrary, there are very compelling reasons to have term limits in government (like to help prevent corruption and monarchical government and to ensure the continued representation of the people, not the people who may have seen fit to elect someone 10 years ago).

Sport is about participation and competition. Athletes should choose. If they want to continue to compete, they should be able to ... period.

O-

[smurf]

No, there should be no required retirement, regardless of age or accomplishments.

Imagine if Maria B or Tatiana from UZB retired before say 1998. I love the memory of Maria winning worlds in 1999 and Tatiana's excitment of getting in the GP Final last year.

I agree with much that has been said.
In a perfect world, the amateur and the pro world would both be strong, offering many things for each skater. This way depending on what the needs/desires of the skaters, they can pursue the path they are comfortable with, and we as fans would get the best of both worlds.
One can dream......

[meli]

My argument on this one is that nobody suggests this in any other sport and is expected to be taken seriously. (that's not a slam against posters who believe this, please understand). I'm saying that in any other sport, if you reach a pinnacle of success you are expected to continue to show your dominance. Michael Jordan wouldn't be Michael Jordan with only 1 NBA title, but he's a legend with 6. Carl Lewis holds a record for Olympic medals in track and field because he stuck around for 4 Olympics instead of retiring after 1984.

I think it's important for figure skaters to stick around if they physically and emotionally can for more than one Olympics if they want others to see them as athletes. There's a lot of poo-pooing anyway because it's figure skating, and the tradition has been for someone to compete in 1 Olympic games and turn pro. That may have as much to do with the old belief that you somehow lose the ability to even stand up on your skates past the age of 25 for men and 18 for ladies. I think it's inspriational for a skater who's in their late 20's to early 30's to be out there and competing at such a high leve they can actually do multiple Olympic games.

[loveskating]

The problem with skaters staying around for such a long time as amateurs is that fundamentally, once they have peaked, skaters cannot change much within the ISU/USFSA competitive framework of requirements and rules, and in any case, their basic characteristics do not change.

In basketball, each game is very different, and there are multiple "face offs" between star players of teams which are in and of themselves totally different, exciting and highly unpredictable.

How long would we watch Michael Jordon on the court by himself doing all his moves? Not long, I think.

In track, the goals are very, very specific, highly quantifiable and limited.

Skating has its OWN characteristics:

1. it is so complex as a sport, most people who enjoy it cannot understand it as a sport beyond whether the skater falls or not, ergo, there is a BIG problem justifying the "dominator's" wins over a long span of time because even the most consistent skaters still fall!;

2. it is, along with gymnastics, a sport which is also quite beautiful, and has as one goal artistic expression, and no artist is allowed to rest on thier laurels and remain successful, not even Johnney Cash or Luciano Pavarotti or Bob Dylan.

3. MANY people are successful in basketball, hockey, etc. I daresay everyone knows someone who at least knows someone who was successful in sports (my uncle was All State pitcher in HS, played in the minor leagues; my husband's cousin, pro basketball player, sister of high school bud on Dallas Cowboys drill team, etc. etc.) -- by contrast, there are VERY FEW skaters who are truly successful....yet now we have this apparent goal of ONE skater dominating for 10 years, which by my calculations knocks at least 3-4 other skaters right out of a career.

That takes the odds of success for any talented kid who has the goods a notch lower, as the expense of training continues to go through the roof.

Personally, I don't enjoy very much seeing the same skater on television doing the same 7 triples and basically the same moves for 10 years running -- but beyond that, considering that some apparently do, there are ramifications and consequences for others in a personal choice, which of course, there usually are.

[speedy]

If someone can dominate a sport for 10 years (i.e., Michael Jordan, Michelle Kwan), more power to them. Athletes like that only come around once in a generation, if that much, and their staying power only adds to their mystique. If there's no one else talented enough to knock them off their pedestal, that's the other athletes' problem. Skating is not the only sport in which people who aren't fans of that certain athlete get sick of seeing them win...ask anybody who pulled against the Bulls in the 90's. Sorry, but the idea of watching Michael Jordan playing alone doesn't wash...basketball is a TEAM sport, not an individual sport like figure skating. People have dominated other individual sports (Bjorn Borg, Martina Navratilova, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, Carl Lewis, Edwin Moses, the Williams sisters)...it's not unique to figure skating. Making up a rule to kick someone out of Olympic-eligible skating just because a certain percentage of people don't want to see them win any more is ridiculous. And of course there are more successful athletes in team sports because it's just that...teams, not individuals competing. Also, aside from golf, team sports are what drives the business of sports in this country...that's where most of the money and opportunities are. I'm sure most young skaters realize at a certain age that their opportunities for making a career out of their chosen sport are very limited, but considering the ratio of kids participating in the sport of skating compared to basketball or baseball or football in this country, their odds of making it big probably aren't much worse. Sooner or later the dominators in a sport do retire or fade away...if there's somebody good enough to rule the top of the mountain for 10 years thereafter, bring them on...that's what sports legends are made of.

[loveskating]

Well, I'm not for a rule...i'm just discussing the pros and cons cuz its interesting to me.

My point about basketball vs. skating is that it is different for a person WATCHING someone who dominates the sport because Michael Jordan, for instance, looks quite different up agaisnt one team than he does up against another, or even up against one great player in another team, whereas with skaters, they look basically the same for 10 years. So you can go see him play 500 times, and each time, it will be quite different.

This is also so in football; I was particularly fond of Pat Culpepper and Johnney Treadwell, both All American Linebackers, in my college days at U.T. and both of them looked very different and played differently up against different teams. One can get excited seeing a great pitcher pitching to a great hitter, while the single skater(s) out there appear much the same over the years or for very long periods of time.

I even got bored with Boitano...but at least, he had the best 3 axel, the best 3 lutz and the best death drops in his time that I'd ever seen, so it was always a pleasure to see him do those. And thank God for Yags and Kulik, who were the only ones to match or surpass him on those elements.

Skaters look different when they go pro because they are freed from the rules of the ISU, they can do things like enter a spin out of a 3 loop or a 3 axel out of twizzles (Ilia Kulik); do spreadagles all over the rink (Paul Wylie; Kurt Browning); there is little restriction as to footwork (Kurt Browning and Ilia Kulik) etc. G&G and many ohters were able to skate some incredibly moving programs as pros because they were unconstricted by the amateur rules of competition and most of those programs simply did not have the "stuff" of amateur competition.

Now all the "pro" programs seem Pro-Am oriented, and the ams always win, because of the jumps, which has the effect of deminishing the pros.

I'm not for a rule, I just wish the ISU would get out of the pro ams.

[duane]

because of the uniqueness and complexities of figure skating that loveskating pointed out, domination of this sport is looked at differently than ones domination of other sports.

for the athletes of other sports, the question of bias, or of whether one "deserved" to have dominated for so long, is never an issue. no one can say that ed moses was held up for years, or that martina should have placed lower at wimbledom. no one ever complains that serena's presentation should have kept her from winning the US Open, or that tiger's outfits are boring.

and, because the champions of our sport are determined by a panel of judges, there seems to be greater scrutiny. when a 15 year old girl wins the US Open, it's great. she won on her own actions, beating the more experienced players. when a 15 year old wins Olympic gold in FS...oh, what were the judges thinking??...oh, she is too young...oh, her moves are too girlish...oh, too much emphasis on the jumps...oh, she will never be Olympic champion in my eyes. etc, etc, etc.

everyone is well aware that no one will ever be "required" to retire after winning olympic gold. what i love about this thread is its tongue-in-cheek interesting question that basically is critical of the fans of figure skating. :)

[kayskate]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22

When you win gold, you are "crowned" for life. On the one hand, why do anything to tarnish that? Why not just enjoy all of it - It is not going to come your way again. It has got to be the MOST exciting time of a skater's life.


Well, it did come again for Witt (also for Dick Button). It would be interesting to see someone continue to dominate and win 2 Oly golds again. Unfortunately, speculations about "holding up" skaters and unfair judging is nothing new. IMO, any skater who sticks around will be criticised every time s/he wins with a less than landslide performance. I guess this is one of the problems inherent in a judged sport.

Kay

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by kayskate
Well, it did come again for Witt (also for Dick Button). It would be interesting to see someone continue to dominate and win 2 Oly golds again. Unfortunately, speculations about "holding up" skaters and unfair judging is nothing new. IMO, any skater who sticks around will be criticised every time s/he wins with a less than landslide performance. I guess this is one of the problems inherent in a judged sport.

Kay Right you are, regarding Witt and Button. But, that was a different era, really. Witt, being from East Germany, had few options open to her. What was she going to do? There were certainly not the pro options open to her that were open to Scott and Kristi. And with Dick.......it was a different era. He was truly an amateur athelete. There were just a few competitions to prepare for. He was even going to Harvard, for heaven sake! There was not the level of fame, fortune, and turn your world upside down stuff that comes with that medal today. According to Robin, Sarah has trouble even getting to the ice to practice, she is so busy signing autographs. Sarah - to her credit - doesn't want to disappoint the children who wait to catch a glimpse of her.

I don't have a great answer here. I just figure if you reach this pinacle.....boy, sit back and enjoy the ride. We will see what really happens with Sarah. The jury is out, with her injury. And, Alexi - well, another example (unfortunately) of the toll those quads and triple take on the human bod!

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
I don't have a great answer here. I just figure if you reach this pinacle.....boy, sit back and enjoy the ride.

Well, if any Olympic gold medalists ask your advice about whether they should keep competing or retire/turn pro, you can offer this opinion, *if* you think that sitting back and enjoying the ride is the best choice for that particular skater.

But it's a "different era," a different situation, for every skater. Things may be very different four years or twelve years from now than they are in 2002.

The pro opportunities and the kinds of nonskating distractions that Lipinski and Hughes have faced vary depending on what year it is and also on what discipline the skater competes in, what nationality he or she is, how popular the win was, etc. The "ride" will be different even in the same year for an American ladies' champ and, oh, say a Russian ice dance champ. They don't necessarily have the same opportunities for exposure or income available to them outside of eligible competition.

Also, outside input aside, the skaters themselves may have different feelings about whether they still have more to accomplish in eligible skating depending on how long they had been competing at the highest levels and how much they had or hadn't won before that Olympic gold, different plans for their futures depending on whether they foresee a career as a pro skater or as a doctor, lawyer, etc., and different possibilities depending on injury status.

So a rule to impose the same requirement on all skaters who win Olympic gold is going to be wrong for some of them and right for others. Who are we to determine what they all must do?

If they make their own choices and then discover that it was a mistake and they should have made a different choice, well, then that's their problem and they'll learn from the experience. It's also a lot easier for both them and us to see in hindsight whether it's right or wrong. If they make a choice that they're happy with but some fans don't like, well, tough luck for those fans. It's not our decision to make.

[adrianchew]

Perhaps there should be a rule on how much an eligible skater can earn per annum - a decent limit, but not millions, so the sport doesn't turn into a career for some that keeps other poor atheletes in the sport from ever having a chance to move up.

I could see something like $300k/annum or something as generous even given the high costs of travel, training, etc... and any compensation they receive beyond that has to be voluntarily donated away, or they lose their eligibility.

Most people don't make $300k/year - so if they want to live plush lifestyles and capitalize on their popularity, then they should turn pro. If they want to compete for the love of competition, they can easily afford to do so from the income they bring in via their skating, but not make a whole ton of dough in the process.

[spiralsrfun]

Good thread!


I don't agree with an earnings cap for eligible skaters. See, as I see it, if a skater can make a few million a year from skating/endorsements why not, every other major sport in this country pays its athletes a gross amount of money, so why should skaters have to settle for less?
Lee's post was excellent:
I think *requiring* anyone to retire takes away from the idea of 'sport.' If someone is cranky because someone else is hanging on and others aren't getting their chance, then it's up to those others just get good enough to beat the 'hangers-on,' isn't it?

Sport is about being the best -- if we require the 'best' to retire after reaching an arbitrary pinnacle (some do NOT feel the Olympics is the best judge of who's the best skater), then it no longer meets the ideal of true sport. One who steps into the spot of the retiree hasn't won because they ARE the best; they won by default because we required the BEST to leave.

Not good...not fair...
I completely agree with that. If a skater can still compete at the top and wants to compete, they should, whether they're an Olympic champion or not. Stepping aside to give others a chance makes no sense. People need to earn a spot on the top based on their merit, not because skater "X" won't leave. That's the nature of sport.

[adrianchew]

Skaters should be able to earn as much money as they like - as professionals! ;)

As long as the sport maintains a line between eligiblity and turning professional, a distinction should be made. I see too many conflicts of interests - the skating federations are closely aligned with the sponsors who are playing handsome sums for some skaters, and to believe that some skaters don't receive 'extras' due to this arrangement is rather naive.

Its almost a win-win-win situation... the skaters being rewarded handsomely, the federations who get lots of sponsor funding, and even the fans of those skaters. Who gets hurt? The upcoming skaters who have yet to make a big name without a big fanbase and large sponsor paychecks.

The change and the lure for skaters at the top to retain eligibility has certainly changed over the past few years - opening the doors to endless riches to eligible skaters has fueled this.

People say younger skaters need to step up to the plate and earn their spot. Part of this comes from experience - if skaters didn't turn pro sooner in the past, perhaps some of the skaters we know at the top of the eligible ranks might have been deprived of valuable experience that has enabled them to get to the top.

Its a chicken and egg situation - perhaps sending a lesser skater to a big competition will achieve less favorable results today, but the experience they get can make them a champion tomorrow. That people are even discussing this now is an indication that potential is there, the ranks are overcrowded, and some folks are frustrated.

I have no problems with skaters wanting to remain eligible because they are competitive - but when they only do so for the monetary rewards, it hurts and deprives lesser skaters of valuable experience and opportunities.

[spiralsrfun]

Adrian, you make an excellent point of pointing-out how different Figure skating is compared to other sports...as they are called pros. In the skating world however, the "pro" world doesn't involve competition like in other big sports, it is mostly all fluff and show and offers little. This is a frustration indeed and it is a win-win-win situation. I almost wish they would "amend" the terms "eligible/pro" because they don't really apply in Figure Skating.
I have no problems with skaters wanting to remain eligible because they are competitive - but when they only do so for the monetary rewards, it hurts and deprives lesser skaters of valuable experience and opportunities.
I don't know of any skaters competing for just the money. What skaters are you referring to? That would be awful motivation indeed. :??

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by spiralsrfun

I don't know of any skaters competing for just the money. What skaters are you referring to? That would be awful motivation indeed. :??

Badly phrased by me... let's put it this way, I would wonder if certainly skaters would choose to remain eligible, if there wasn't a huge pot of gold to be had.

And if you must have names - those I wonder would be Kwan, Weiss not turning pro and Eldredge ratting the cage by saying he wants to come back and compete. Kwan says she's taking things day by day (I don't hear a cry of I'm still here cause I love to compete), Weiss is looking for a big $$$ ticket that doesn't seem to be coming his way, and Eldredge one can only wonder why would he want to come back and compete. None of them will ever likely be Olympic champions either.

Truly - there is no way of knowing who amongst skaters, but if there was an earnings cap, it would probably shakeout those serious about eligible competition from those only seeking to milk the cow.

I do believe someone like Yagudin may stay eligible (too bad he's injured), given such restrictions even. Otherwise, its just another wasted spot that a lesser skater could better use, IMO. It will be interesting to see what decisions Sarah Hughes makes over the years to come.

I don't like it that eligible skating at the top levels is slowly becoming like tennis or golf or some other sports... to me, eligible competition is about competitive drive, personal excellence, and the sense of accomplishment that victory brings, not about careers and making millions.

Once that fire is gone - its time to call it quits... not winning an Olympic gold, or reaching a certain age. And we all know that can't last a whole lifetime, there's only so much a human body will take before breaking - its too bad someone like Aleksei has the fire, but his body is already giving up on him some.

[spiralsrfun]

Adrian-

Most, if not all, skaters are motivated by the prospect of being on top and the fame and $$$$ that comes with it. There are many ladies in the US who would love the opportunities that Michelle/Sarah/Tara are enjoying.

I highly doubt Kwan is staying eligible because she's motivated by money at this point, she already has a ton, and if she were to quit competing, her endorsement deals with Disney/Chevey/etc. would still hold. I don't think 2006 Turin is a factor at all in her remaining eligible, but I think the worlds being in the USA has something to do with it.

Eldredge...who knows there, that came from left field. I was really shocked that he filed to come back in August. He's another one with lot's of money as well, so maybe he misses competition and wants to compete in Worlds since it's in the USA?

Weiss is someone I would agree with you there who "probably" is motivated to stay eligible partly for the money. He has a product to sell in his "Freedom Blades"....a product that won't sell if he isn't a champion again I suspect.

Alexei...that is just a sad story. :( I feel so bad for him, but if he can't compete any longer at least he can say he achieved all his main skating goals.

[olivia]

The fact that there are so few athletes to name in this list of "so-called athletes who have overstayed their welcome" is an indication this is a non-issue and that and these athletes are, by far, the exception to the rule. Most athletes do not have the longevity of a Stojko, Eldredge, Kwan, or Weiss for a variety of reasons: they have competition-ending injuries; they are surpassed (technically/presentation-wise) by upcoming skaters; they no longer desire the grind and stress of training and competition; they desire to fill their lives with things/people other than figure skating; and etc. To me, if a skater is healthy, can still compete with the best, and still desires to participate and compete (and they must have this desire since they are, apparently, willing to sacrifice so much time and energy towards training), why not continue?

O-

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Ellyn
Well, if any Olympic gold medalists ask your advice about whether they should keep competing or retire/turn pro, you can offer this opinion, *if* you think that sitting back and enjoying the ride is the best choice for that particular skater.
I keep waiting for them to call. I'll let you know when they do ;)

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Perhaps there should be a rule on how much an eligible skater can earn per annum - a decent limit, but not millions, so the sport doesn't turn into a career for some that keeps other poor atheletes in the sport from ever having a chance to move up.

I could see something like $300k/annum or something as generous even given the high costs of travel, training, etc... and any compensation they receive beyond that has to be voluntarily donated away, or they lose their eligibility.

Most people don't make $300k/year - so if they want to live plush lifestyles and capitalize on their popularity, then they should turn pro. If they want to compete for the love of competition, they can easily afford to do so from the income they bring in via their skating, but not make a whole ton of dough in the process. Adrian - That is a BRILLIANT idea! Would alter the entire landscape.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by spiralsrfun
Adrian-


I highly doubt Kwan is staying eligible because she's motivated by money at this point, she already has a ton, and if she were to quit competing, her endorsement deals with Disney/Chevey/etc. would still hold.
Using your example of Michelle - Where would she compete (and thus keep her "value" to her sponsors up) if she were to retire from eligible skating? You say she is not in it for the money - of course she is.....in part, and probably a significant part. She surely doesn't need more of the same titles she already has. And, there is really no place for her to go. There are virtually no pro comps. She is not going to SOI-----not with Tara there. Same with Weiss and Eldridge.

I think Adrian is really on to something. The "Eligible" ranks should have an earning limit. That would help keep the pro ranks growing, and that is good for skating. Wouldn't we all want to see Tara, Michelle, Nicole still competing with each other? I would.

[meli]

I don't always agree that once you've won you can't continue to contribute to the sport, and I get the impression from some of the posts that a few believe that. I think what I find boring sometimes from skaters who continue to hang on and compete for long periods is when that skater appears to either really bored but doing it anyway or a skater who's doing it looking for the end of the rainbow (like Michael Weiss). Like everyone else, I don't know if I want to see a skater doing the same 7 triples in the same parts of the program, IF THEY'RE GOING TO DO THE SAME KIND OF PROGRAM. We've all seen that--they choose the same kind of music, same kind of outfits, place everything exactly where they always place it, etc. Yes, that can get boring.

There are times, though, when you see a skater who actually tries to experiment. I think what I like about Tim Goebel right now, even though he's still new to the scene, so to speak, is that over the past few years he's experimented with music and clothing to try and find his niche. Paul Wylie ended up doing a lot of similar material and skating, but then he'd throw something like The Doors medley in from left field.

Longevity doesn't have to get boring as long as the skater isn't just content to be the same skater all the time. As long as he or she is still trying to become better at what they do, or willing to go out on a limb and be who they really are. Those that have stopped and have become boring have yet to find the new glacier to skate on.

[Yazmeen]

I've enjoyed this discussion, but there's also another point--we all have our favorites, and for all the logic being shown, that still enters into the discussion (if I may have a moment of fun, here):

Should my favorite be allowed to keep competing? Of course!!! He or she is wonderful and should be allowed to keep showing their brilliance on the ice. Just because they maybe haven't had the best week, month, year, several years, doesn't mean they won't be on top this coming season!!! (reference: Pete Sampras, US Open 2002).

As to the skaters I 've never liked or don't like anymore--should they retire? Of course!!! I'm sick of seeing their tired old programs, they've peaked, stick a fork in them, they're done!!! Give the newbies a chance. (reference: Insert name of failed baseball/football/basketball/hockey player who attempted a comeback and laid a major egg, here).

Submitted with tongue majorly in cheek...

Beth

[spiralsrfun]

Yazmeen...good point. Yes, I'm a Michelle fan (as if it wasn't obvious lol) but I was a big fan of skating before Michelle, and I'll be one after she retires from competition. I'm a skater myself...I love this sport and am a fan of many skaters and I would make the same argument for Sarah, Tara, Sasha, Todd, Suzy, Billy, or any skater in a similar position as Michelle.

AxelAnnie22 -
I don't see the ISU putting a cap on how much eligible skaters can be paid any time soon. The ISU pretty much put a knife in the pro world by making eligible skating more appealing by offering more $$$ back in 98. We shall see though, the ISU is capable of anything...lol. So many skaters want to stay eligible now, and the pro world is taking a big hit. Perhaps if they made it more "appealing" to become a pro, more skaters would...right now there not much appeal at all IMO.

As far as Michelle goes...she loves to compete and has said that many, many, many times for many, many years. I don't see the need for her to say that any more, it's pretty obvious. I think that is part of her motivation...to say it's mostly money is unfair IMO, but to say that money isn't a factor is naive as well, I DO think it is a factor, just not the main one. ;)

Take away Michelle's endorsement $$ and COI tour $$ and she'd be making around Adrian's proposed $300K cap in just ISU/USFSA competitions, so she seems in line already. What she's offered aside from the ISU/USFSA $$ is a result of her popularity and success. Besides, Michelle's contracts with Disney and Chevy apparently are not dependant on her continuing to compete as an eligible...as when they both renewed (and expanded) with her knowing that she might quit after Salt Lake, that didn't matter to them, Michelle's character and beloved celeb status is what mattered to them.

Skaters like Sasha could soon be cashing in on the big $$ as well, she's already is endorsed by the Beef people, and my argument holds for her, or anyone else lucky enough to have the opportunites offered to them...opportunities like Sarah is also enjoying now. :)

[Badams]

Axelannie...you don't REALLY think that the reason Michelle doesn't go to SOI is Tara do you? LOL! that's not a very good argument. Michelle isn't afraid of Tara, and Tara isn't afraid of Michelle. I think SOI would be more then happy to have Michelle. And, as far as Tara goes, with the condition of her body, i wonder how much longer she can do SOI. I think that the fact is that going pro isn't as lucrative as it once was. the shows are cheesy and pathetic and you can make more $$$ as an amature. and as far as michelle "not needing to win more of the same titles"...maybe she thinks otherwise.

[loveskating]

Anyone know what kind of money M. Kwan is making now? Last few seasons it was reported $4 million a year including endorsements, and that she made more money than any other skater.

I doubt if many other gold medalists are making anywhere near that.

[duane]

Loveskating,
that is the amount i remember reading of how much michelle makes.

but why has michelle--who isnt an olympic gold medalist--become the topic of discussion in a "should olympic gold medalists be required to retire" thread? LOL

[meli]

duane--I'm not sure that Michelle has intentionally become the focus of the thread, but because she's been around the longest now of all the skaters in eligible competition, unfortunately she's become the easiest target.

This could be about any skater that stays in past the 4 year Olympic period.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by duane
Loveskating,
that is the amount i remember reading of how much michelle makes.

but why has michelle--who isnt an olympic gold medalist--become the topic of discussion in a "should olympic gold medalists be required to retire" thread? LOL

I dunno...it just drifted like that (lots of people like to talk about her I think, LOL).

When I asked the question, my point was that I don't think most of the skaters who have won gold at either the Olympics or Worlds make that kind of money.

The subtopic was whether to limit the amount of money amateurs can make. So then I thought, well, how much do they make?

I'm on the fence on that; I guess I think the problem is the pro ams, that if the pro ams ended, the gap would be filled by outfits like Boitano's White Canvas and there would be pro competitions of some decency? Maybe not. Anyway, the pro ams are not so good IMHO.

[duane]

so, are pro competitions (not pro-am, but simply pro, like the Professional Worlds Competition) basically nonexistant today? do any even exist anymore? i cant even remember the last professional competition i've seen.

[proam]

Another drift off the subject.

I’m always amused when the subject of how much a skater earn, especially who makes the most.
The only way we can state who makes the most if all elite skater’s earnings were published.

How do we know another skater is not making 5 million a year, one million more a year than Michelle? ;)

Do we know the earnings of Kurt Browning, Brian Boitano, Elvis Stojko, Scott Hamilton, Brain Orser, Sarah Hughes, Tara Lipinski, Ilia Kulik, Katia Gordeeva and etc?
Until we know this information we can not state that such and such skater is the highest paid. To state otherwise without this info is only a guess or wishful thinking.

[Hannahclear]

Or, making the data fit the thesis, eh? ;)

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by spiralsrfun
Yazmeen...good point. Yes, I'm a Michelle fan (as if it wasn't obvious lol) but I was a big fan of skating before Michelle, and I'll be one after she retires from competition. I'm a skater myself...I love this sport and am a fan of many skaters and I would make the same argument for Sarah, Tara, Sasha, Todd, Suzy, Billy, or any skater in a similar position as Michelle.

AxelAnnie22 -
I don't see the ISU putting a cap on how much eligible skaters can be paid any time soon. The ISU pretty much put a knife in the pro world by making eligible skating more appealing by offering more $$$ back in 98. We shall see though, the ISU is capable of anything...lol. So many skaters want to stay eligible now, and the pro world is taking a big hit. Perhaps if they made it more "appealing" to become a pro, more skaters would...right now there not much appeal at all IMO.

As far as Michelle goes...she loves to compete and has said that many, many, many times for many, many years. I don't see the need for her to say that any more, it's pretty obvious. I think that is part of her motivation...to say it's mostly money is unfair IMO, but to say that money isn't a factor is naive as well, I DO think it is a factor, just not the main one. ;)

Take away Michelle's endorsement $$ and COI tour $$ and she'd be making around Adrian's proposed $300K cap in just ISU/USFSA competitions, so she seems in line already. What she's offered aside from the ISU/USFSA $$ is a result of her popularity and success. Besides, Michelle's contracts with Disney and Chevy apparently are not dependant on her continuing to compete as an eligible...as when they both renewed (and expanded) with her knowing that she might quit after Salt Lake, that didn't matter to them, Michelle's character and beloved celeb status is what mattered to them.

Skaters like Sasha could soon be cashing in on the big $$ as well, she's already is endorsed by the Beef people, and my argument holds for her, or anyone else lucky enough to have the opportunites offered to them...opportunities like Sarah is also enjoying now. :)

Amen to that! Michelle didn't make me a fan, Dorothy did!

Now it's really more lucrative for skaters to remain eligible if they can. I really enjoyed the pro comps and I wish there was some way to make it more appealing; I think a showdown between Michelle, Tara, Yuka, LuLu, Kristi, Nicole, etc., without the rigid demands of the eligible rules, would be quite the thing to watch.

If Michelle skated for $ alone, I don't think she would still be showing up for practice every day. She obviously loves the sport and has some things she still wants to do. Heck, no one kicked out Sonia Henie and look how many titles she had and how many Olympics she went to. If they still love it, let them skate. If you hate them, go get some munchies out of the fridge when they're on, lol. That's what I do!

[spiralsrfun]

From loveskating:
I'm on the fence on that; I guess I think the problem is the pro ams, that if the pro ams ended, the gap would be filled by outfits like Boitano's White Canvas and there would be pro competitions of some decency? Maybe not. Anyway, the pro ams are not so good IMHO. I agree that pro-ams could be a problem and if they were to go away, it could make more room (TV time-wise) for pro competitions.
From duane:
so, are pro competitions (not pro-am, but simply pro, like the Professional Worlds Competition) basically nonexistant today? do any even exist anymore? i cant even remember the last professional competition i've seen.
They seem pretty non-existant, except for ice wars...is that still happening? This year, the World pro is a pro-am again, instead of a pure pro event, so the pickings are slim for the pros as far as competitions go. :??

[loveskating]

I'm honestly not sure if television is so much "saturated" with skating, as it is saturated with the same skaters doing the same programs or the same type programs?

I mean, one thing you have to at least respect about Kurt Browning is that he is ALWAYS coming up with something different, whether he has a lutz and a 3 axel or not, always pushing the envelope (and IMHO Kulik is like that too) but with real skating and tastefully.

Isn't a skating channel in the works (icechannel.com)? I'm notifying my cable provider that I want it, but we don't even have the opera station in Brooklyn...they didn't lay the frigging lines for it, are STILL doing the hardware work!

The "wilds" of Brooklyn!!! Sigh. And Brooklyn is such a wonderful place!

[spiralsrfun]

loveskating...you may be right there about the same routines being seen for a long period of time...it gets old indeed. Which is why I think pro ams should go away. Usually, by the spring COI show, we've seen the same eligible skaters doing the same exhibition numbers since the previous fall...not their fault, but old none the less.

Having pro comps fill the gap could be nice...I miss the early-mid 90's when the pro field was deep and exciting. Kurt is indeed still one of those who always pushes himself in new and exciting directions...love him, and I want to see more of him and others before they retire for good.


And YES...there is a Santa Claus...a skating channel is in the works!!! How wonderful for skating fans this will be. It could really open the doors to more variety and exposure to skaters, competitions, and shows we would never see otherwise. :D