Cheerleading is Not a Sport, per lawsuit outcome

[Isk8NYC]

Cheerleading, which has given figure skating the Victory spiral, just lost a key decision in the US District Court. In order to become a varsity sport, the court ruled, they would need to have more development and nationwide organization.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Cheerleading-Is-Not-a-Sport-Judge-98968244.html

There's also some grey areas regarding Quinnipiac U's NCAA recruiting policies.

One of the obstacles in the US preventing Synchronized Skating from become an Olympic sport is that the NCAA doesn't recognize it as a varsity sport. In some NCAA divisions, varsity recruits can be given scholarships and incentives to attend their college.

The famous Title IX comes into play here as well. Because of budget issues, Quinnipiac's volleyball team was on the chopping block in favor of the competitive cheer squad. More and more, attempts to create varsity sports for women are coming at the expense of other sports due to budget and NCAA constraints.

The ruling is significant because the judge felt that competitive cheerleading was "too underdeveloped and disorganized to be treated as offering genuine varsity athletic participate opportunities for students."

That's one thing synchro has going for it: an established national organizing body and competitions, with clear rules and guidelines of sport. Maybe the synchro coaches and organizers can use this ruling as a guideline to advance the sport?

[Schmeck]

The dis-organization of cheerleading is just like what we come across in the dance world - there is a 'national championship' competition every other weekend, it seems like anyone can start up a competition, and crown a national champion. I wonder how this is going to affect the high school level?

I'd love to see some more colleges pick up synchro as a varsity sport. Synchro has MITF testing requirements, and I think that makes it more legitimate than many other sports out there right now. I always had fun explaining at school the commitment my older daughter had to make to skating on a junior level synchro team.

Private lessons, testing moves, freestyle, and dance with nationally appointed judges, qualifying events, Nationals, and 3 practices a week, including one on a school night that had us getting home around midnight. One month off in the summer.

Compare that to a high school sport that goes for 3 months, practices at the school, plays at the school, never makes it out of the state even if they 'go all the way'. Teams get dismissed 30 minutes before everyone else if they have an away game, no consequences for missing class.

One year I saved, documented, and tallied every early release for sports at our school. I knew they couldn't give my daughter a hard time for missing two days for a synchro competition after I calculated how many hours the football team had missed. :twisted:

[Isk8NYC]

Synchro has MITF testing requirements, and I think that makes it more legitimate than many other sports out there right now.
There are MITF test requirements for synchro? I thought I read in the rulebook, but I overheard someone at the rink (who should know better) that the skaters don't have to take MITF. I didn't want to look like a know-it-all and correct her. Maybe it's only required for the upper levels of synchro, not the lowest levels?

[Skittl1321]

The rulebook lists the tests required.

To skate at the synchro level X you must have MITF test Y
Senior: Novice
Junior: Intermediate
Novice: Juvenile
Juvenile: Preliminary
Preliminary: No test required
Collegiate: Juvenile
Adult: Preliminary or Adult Bronze or Preliminary Dance or Preliminary Figure
Masters: None
Pre-Juv: None
Open Juv: Pre-preliminary
Open Adult: None
Open collegiate: None

Of course, most strong teams will require much higher than these standards.

(I find it interesting preliminary dance is a qualifier that is supposedly equivalent to preliminary/bronze moves. It's an initial test, not the second one, and while I personally have R&Bs troubles, I would say it's much easier than qualifying through MITF.)

[dbny]

(I find it interesting preliminary dance is a qualifier that is supposedly equivalent to preliminary/bronze moves. It's an initial test, not the second one, and while I personally have R&Bs troubles, I would say it's much easier than qualifying through MITF.)

ITA. Preliminary dance is entirely F, no threes or Mohawks. It does, however, require skating with a partner, so maybe that's considered significant enough.

[Isk8NYC]

The rulebook lists the tests required.

To skate at the synchro level X you must have MITF test Y
Senior: Novice
Junior: Intermediate
Novice: Juvenile
Juvenile: Preliminary
Preliminary: No test required
Collegiate: Juvenile
Adult: Preliminary or Adult Bronze or Preliminary Dance or Preliminary Figure
Masters: None
Pre-Juv: None
Open Juv: Pre-preliminary
Open Adult: None
Open collegiate: None

Of course, most strong teams will require much higher than these standards.Thank you so much for looking that up for me. I was sure I read it in the rulebook, so I was shocked when this person corrected me and then one of my parents asked me about it because he was also confused. I think the person who said there were no requirements was thinking about the lower-level teams only, assuming we weren't interested in the more advanced teams.

You're so right about the stricter standards on the elite teams: one of our skaters is hoping to make her college's synchro team. She's been working really hard to prepare for her audition. (Beautiful, beautiful skater and so very sweet. Her eyes just light up when you talk about skating.)

[momof3chicks]

Cheerleading, which has given figure skating the Victory spiral, just lost a key decision in the US District Court. In order to become a varsity sport, the court ruled, they would need to have more development and nationwide organization.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Cheerleading-Is-Not-a-Sport-Judge-98968244.html

There's also some grey areas regarding Quinnipiac U's NCAA recruiting policies.

One of the obstacles in the US preventing Synchronized Skating from become an Olympic sport is that the NCAA doesn't recognize it as a varsity sport. In some NCAA divisions, varsity recruits can be given scholarships and incentives to attend their college.

The famous Title IX comes into play here as well. Because of budget issues, Quinnipiac's volleyball team was on the chopping block in favor of the competitive cheer squad. More and more, attempts to create varsity sports for women are coming at the expense of other sports due to budget and NCAA constraints.

The ruling is significant because the judge felt that competitive cheerleading was "too underdeveloped and disorganized to be treated as offering genuine varsity athletic participate opportunities for students."

That's one thing synchro has going for it: an established national organizing body and competitions, with clear rules and guidelines of sport. Maybe the synchro coaches and organizers can use this ruling as a guideline to advance the sport?

I continue to be preplexed at how more universities wouldn't want to have synchro as a sport...most already have hockey and a rink, the worst of the overhead!

[momof3chicks]

There are MITF test requirements for synchro? I thought I read in the rulebook, but I overheard someone at the rink (who should know better) that the skaters don't have to take MITF. I didn't want to look like a know-it-all and correct her. Maybe it's only required for the upper levels of synchro, not the lowest levels?

All 'qualifying' levels have MITF requirements by USFS and some teams have higher requirements for their teams.

[Schmeck]

I know Miami U. has their varsity (competing senior level) and jv (competing junior level) as well as a collegiate (competing collegiate) and even a club level (not sure what level they compete at?) but I'm not sure what other colleges/universities have for team levels - many have collegiate, but they tend to be sponsored at the club level, not varsity status. If colleges went varsity with their synchro teams, would they have to compete at the senior level, and could they get enough girls to qualify? While it would be nice to have more senior teams out there, sometimes it is really hard to get enough qualified skaters to do the job.

[Isk8NYC]

I continue to be preplexed at how more universities wouldn't want to have synchro as a sport...most already have hockey and a rink, the worst of the overhead!Yes, but they already have men's and women's hockey teams, so that covers them under the Title IX law. Under Title IX, schools that receive federal funding must provide equivalent sports for both genders. Having two hockey teams meets the requirement. Synchro is primarily female, so it's not as appealing, but most collegiate figure skating teams are co-ed and have members of both genders.

The reluctance to make figure skating and/or synchro more than a club sport is directly tied to budgets. In order to balance the male:female sport ratio, adding a new female sport usually means dropping another sport. That's one of the reasons baseball has declined - their supporters aren't bringing in the income that football and basketball draw annually. Softball is usually the female "counter" to baseball.

What would be the male "counter" to an all-women synchro team? Maybe curling, but that's usually co-ed right?


Wrestling is very often the sport on the chopping block, even though their biggest budget item is traveling to matches, not equipment and facilities.

That's why the volleyball team in this situation fought against cheerleading being made a varsity sport - it meant the demise of their sport as a varsity activity.

"Varsity" teams (in some NCAA divisions) can mean scholarships and other commitments to bring the athletes to the college that recruits them.

[Isk8NYC]

All 'qualifying' levels have MITF requirements by USFS and some teams have higher requirements for their teams.
That's what I understood, but I don't consider myself to be an expert on synchro. The person who said MITF tests "didn't matter" also said that some synchro rules/clarifications aren't in the rulebook, so maybe I had read something out of date. Yet, last season, a few top-team members scrambled to pass MITF tests before a deadline. That teamwent to Nationals. (Which is what you just said, lol.)

I now understand (thanks to all) why the person made the statement. It just wasn't explained fully and it seemed to reverse what I was telling my skating parents. Now, I'm more confident in knowing that I did do my due diligence last season. (Our first involvement with synchro)

Thanks to everyone who validated my rulebook understanding.

[momof3chicks]

That's what I understood, but I don't consider myself to be an expert on synchro. The person who said MITF tests "didn't matter" also said that some synchro rules/clarifications aren't in the rulebook, so maybe I had read something out of date. Yet, last season, a few top-team members scrambled to pass MITF tests before a deadline. That teamwent to Nationals. (Which is what you just said, lol.)

I now understand (thanks to all) why the person made the statement. It just wasn't explained fully and it seemed to reverse what I was telling my skating parents. Now, I'm more confident in knowing that I did do my due diligence last season. (Our first involvement with synchro)

Thanks to everyone who validated my rulebook understanding.

I can see how USFS rules on MITF requirements and specific team rules could be confusing if someone didn't explain it clearly!

[Ellyn]

Under Title IX, schools that receive federal funding must provide equivalent sports for both genders. Having two hockey teams meets the requirement. Synchro is primarily female, so it's not as appealing, but most collegiate figure skating teams are co-ed and have members of both genders.

The reluctance to make figure skating and/or synchro more than a club sport is directly tied to budgets. In order to balance the male:female sport ratio, adding a new female sport usually means dropping another sport. That's one of the reasons baseball has declined - their supporters aren't bringing in the income that football and basketball draw annually. Softball is usually the female "counter" to baseball.

What would be the male "counter" to an all-women synchro team? Maybe curling, but that's usually co-ed right?


So what is the "counter" to an all-male football team? Do any schools have varsity women's football teams?

Cheerleading obviously doesn't count after all, and in any case it's not the same sport.

[Skittl1321]

So what is the "counter" to an all-male football team? Do any schools have varsity women's football teams?


Usually volleyball or soccer do not have varsity male counterparts, so they counter football. (Most of the schools do have club soccer though)

[Schmeck]

So what is the "counter" to an all-male football team? Do any schools have varsity women's football teams?

Cheerleading obviously doesn't count after all, and in any case it's not the same sport.

Field hockey!

My daughter's college Rugby team (club level) is trying to become a varsity sport at her school, but they already cut the women's hockey team, so they are not looking to add any more varsity sports. Don't know how they balanced the female hockey cut with a male sport, but I'm sure they did.

It's a shame they won't make the Rugby team varsity, especialy since they are Division III National Small College Champions.

[Query]

I think the judge must have been prejudiced. Maybe the judge just wanted to be politically correct, or enforce a particular political agenda.

And maybe the judge's ruling will apply to competitive collegiate Dance teams too...

So what if it is a bit dis-organized? A lot of sports are. I don't see why you need a monopoly to be a "sport".

It's a good example of why some judges shouldn't be judges.

I watched a couple cheer leading competitions on TV. Extraordinarily athletic. Dangerous too - they throw ladies many times higher than in skating.

Skating is better organized because the USFSA won't let eligible USFSA skaters compete with other organizations (though they now have a special deal with ISI, so you can compete through them). Otherwise, there would be a lot more local competitions. In short, the USFSA enforces a monopoly. They can hold on to the monopoly because the IOC recognizes the ISU, and the ISU recognizes the USFSA.

Yes, U.S. skating teams should try to take advantage of the ruling. But schools may decide skating is too expensive. Plus, the USFSA rules mostly make it too much work for the schools to have more or less weekly local competitions, for other students and alumni to come too, unlike most of the school sponsored sports. Even more important, you can use cheer leaders and dance teams at football and basketball games (the sports which people pay to see, giving the college money), but not skating, because they can't skate in the arena without a lot of extra set up time. So it makes more sense, from both an economic and a school spirit standpoint, for colleges to organize to make cheer leading and Dance competitions meet the (evil) judge's criteria.

You could have a synchro team skate at hockey halftime. But people mostly go to the big college spectator sports so they can yell, scream and get drunk. Slightly different from the civilized image of figure skating!

[RachelSk8er]

To clear up some questions (just saw this thread):

--Synchro has been trying to become an NCAA sport for quite a while now, since the mid 90s.

A few schools had teams way back in the 80s, whether they were competitive or not (Miami, Bowling Green, probably a few more in the Midwest). In case you didn't know, synchro actually started out as a group of skaters put together for halftime entertainment at University of Michigan hockey games in the 50s, so it had its roots as a college quasi-cheerleading thing.

Miami's team had been competing in junior and then moved to senior in 94 when the junior maximum age was lowered--became a varsity team in 1996 in response to Title IX and at that time, the push for synchro as a college sport really got underway. For the record, all 3 of Miami's teams--senior, junior, collegiate, are considered varsity teams and are fully-funded by the school (they call junior the "junior varsity" team but that refers to the level they compete not the status of the team as far as the school goes). They also have an open collegiate team that is considered a club sport, and still receives pretty generous funding but not varisty status--which is like many of the other teams out there.

The collegiate division officially emerged shortly after Miami became varisty (I want to say 98 was the first year) and has grown leaps and bounds. (This pretty much means that Miami will NEVER get a women's hockey program as a varsity sport). Several years later, Western Michigan's teams became a varsity sport, but were stripped of that status after 04 season (or thereabouts) due to budget cuts. Adrian College is, last I knew, the only other current varsity program in the country.

Based on number of skaters, their ages, test levels, and whatnot, colleges can field teams in several divisions--senior, junior (which will be all freshmen and a few young sophomores, max age is 19 as of July 1), collegiate, open collegiate (no test requirement, only need 8-12 skaters), and theoretically they could field teams in adult (if they had enough seniors/grad students 21+) or an adult open team (majority of skaters 19+)--but no one has gone the adult route yet. (There obviously are a lot of college students who do not skate for school-sponsored teams either, they either skate on senior or adult teams, we even had a college student on my open junior team I used to coach.) There is no requirement of what level you need to compete in based on status of your team at the school, it's up to the schools to decide what level they want to compete at based on numbers and tests and money and all those factors. Obviously there are perks to junior and senior--opportunities for international competition being the main one. However, collegiate/open collegiate only require one program and all the teams are on more of a level playing field, all starting their seasons at the same time (early September) and all pretty much having to go on break over Christmas. Junior/senior teams, on the other hand, are basically playing catch-up because they can't hold tryouts until school starts and have to learn 2 programs--most teams in those divisions hold tryouts around April or May and practice through summer, and are forced to take time off for finals and Christmas when most other teams at those levels ramp up training for the big competitions coming in Jan/Feb.

--The problem with not having NCAA status is that schools cannot offer scholarships. Having NCAA status probably would not make more teams earn varsity status because there are so many other issues surrounding that. Mainly--synchro is NOT a sport that brings in any sort of funding or revenue, but it costs a TON of money to field a team. Any recognition it would earn your school on a national scale is to a very small, targeted audience. Speaking from my experience, when I moved to NY after graduating from Miami, even within my own rink, where I was coaching synchro, people thought I had gone to school in Florida! (For the record, in case you thought the same thing, Miami University is a beautiful small town school in southwestern Ohio near the Indiana border between Cincinnati and Dayton. It is not a branch campus or in any way affiliated with the University of Miami in Florida--yes I've been asked that! The Miami Indian tribe inhabited that region of Ohio and then they were kicked out of Ohio and wound up in parts of Florida and Oklahoma.)

--Most teams certainly want MIF levels much higher than what USFS lists. To give you an idea, collegiate requires preliminary. A year before that rule even went into effect, I was a grad student at Syracuse, and we were the 8th place team at nationals at the time. We wanted intermediate moves. Over half the team had novice or higher. Most skaters on top junior and senior teams have multiple gold tests, some teams will not look at you without at least senior moves.

You could have a synchro team skate at hockey halftime. But people mostly go to the big college spectator sports so they can yell, scream and get drunk. Slightly different from the civilized image of figure skating!

Speaking from experience, this is very difficult. Not only are fans loud and drunk, but I've had pennies and other things thrown on the ice while we were skating. There are also rules that hockey teams have to have clean ice at the start of each period, and therefore the synchro teams have to skate on chewed up hockey ice BEFORE it is cut. Not only is that horrible to skate on, but in a sport like synchro, it can be very dangerous. (At synchro competitions, ice is cut every 4-6 teams depending on level.)

I think the Cheerleading case is bad precedent for figure skating programs (wether collegiate conference teams or synchro programs) specifically because it did shoot down a competitive cheer team. But then again, other courts at the same level do not have to follow it. And like I said before, there are still numerous obstacles to skating gaining NCAA status or becoming a varsity sport at more schools anyhow.

One of the obstacles in the US preventing Synchronized Skating from become an Olympic sport is that the NCAA doesn't recognize it as a varsity sport.

Becoming an Olympic sport is fully up to the IOC and has nothing to do whatsoever with whether the NCAA in the USA considers it a varsity sport. Those are two separate issues. The notion of synchro as an Olympic sport has been around longer than synchro as a college sport in the USA. In order for the sport to even be taken seriously by the IOC, synchro first had to be recognized by the ISU and build competition on an international scale. The first world challenge cup happened in 96, and that grew into the first bona-fide world championships in 2000. (It's so cool, medals given to synchro teams at worlds are identical to the ones all other singles, pairs, dancers get.)

Again, synchro becoming an Olympic sport boils down to (you guessed it) money. Weigh the cost of bringing in that many athletes (18-20/team when you count alternates), coaches, trainers, etc versus the revenue you bring in for each team spending less than 10 minutes on the ice performing between two programs and an event that only fills the arena for two nights. It's not financially reasonable when you compare to traditional team sports like hockey where teams play multiple hour long games that fill arenas night after night after night. And synchronized swimming is a bad comparison--those teams have 8 athletes, and out of that, they do the team, duo, and trio events. That would be like Meryl, Charlie, Tanith, Ben, Evan, Johnny, Jeremy, Rachael, Marai, etc all doing their singles, pairs or dance and then all turning around and having to compete synchro. Which would be hilarious.

Plus, in my opinion, the quality of synchro teams in some countries where the sport is still developing is not good enough for it to be an Olympic sport. Sure, USA, Canada, Finland, Sweden, Germany and Russia have always been solid. Italy and Czech Republic and some of the other European countries are coming along. But there are countries who literally scramble together whatever 16 skaters they can find and field a team to send to Worlds because they are allowed an entry. I would not want to see that being allowed at the Olympics (I'd want some minimum IJS score at a previous competition to be required to qualify). I know it happens in other sports too, heck, in singles there are skaters from non-skating countries competing who would never make it out of regionals in the US. But I still think synchro needs more development in some countries before it should be in the Olympics.

[Isk8NYC]

Becoming an Olympic sport is fully up to the IOC and has nothing to do whatsoever with whether the NCAA in the USA considers it a varsity sport.

Again, synchro becoming an Olympic sport boils down to (you guessed it) money.
The ISU recognition was necessary to provide a global organizing body with rules and competitions. However, if US Synchro can become a NCAA sport, it will make it more likely to gain notice by the IOC because of the scholarships, supporters, funding, and revenue becoming a model for the Olympics. If enough countries have organized synchro programs, that will make the ISU take notice and think about (you guessed it) money. (I believe the IOC wants to see 10 organized country-based programs.)

The big NCAA sports, basketball, football and to some extent, baseball, are funded partially by "supporters clubs" at the college level, so their budgets are two-fold: college contribution (which has to be balanced under Title IX) and the supporters' contribution which colleges have been strong-arming to support other sports as well, especially for multi-purpose facilities.

Supporters' clubs also help by giving scholarships that aren't from the college itself, bypassing NCAA rules about certain school divisions.

Scholarships attract powerful athletes to particular schools and build their programs and fanbase. All of that means money.

The NCAA recognition is like a stamp of approval or an obstacle to approval. NCAA also helps coordinate funding and grants to build popular support and a fanbase, making the sports more attractive to the IOC.

While we're delving into history, synchronized swimming wasn't approved for the Olympics until the NCAA advocated for it as "an emerging sport." Here's an interesting 2008 NCAA letter that recapped the 2008 debut and encouraged the IOC to keep synch swimming on the roster for 2012 London: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/23dc02804faedc9387bad7be749a3a0e/JScherr+Ltr+to+NCAA+Cmte+re+Emerging+Sports+6-25-08.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=23dc02804faedc9387bad7be749a3a0e

[Isk8NYC]

So what is the "counter" to an all-male football team? Do any schools have varsity women's football teams?
There doesn't have to be an exact counter, such as a women's football team. Field Hockey, as Schmeck points out, can be compared.

In NCAA Division III schools, they must provide at least five men's and women's sports. If no students wanted the Field Hockey team, that indicates no interest, so the "slot" can be made available to another sport. The key is that it has to be an NCAA-recognized varsity sport.

Many sports are co-ed, so the college can offer both if there's enough interest. Swimming, Track & Field, Golf, and Tennis are the most popular.

[momof3chicks]

Usually volleyball or soccer do not have varsity male counterparts, so they counter football.

Soccer?? No way...there is lots of men's soccer around here. I can agree on Volleyball.

[momof3chicks]

To clear up some questions (just saw this thread):

I know it happens in other sports too, heck, in singles there are skaters from non-skating countries competing who would never make it out of regionals in the US. But I still think synchro needs more development in some countries before it should be in the Olympics.

Agreed, in the couple of rinks my kids skate at alone, there are skaters representing Poland, Australia, Bulgaria and Hungary. And these are not big rinks.

[RachelSk8er]

The ISU recognition was necessary to provide a global organizing body with rules and competitions. However, if US Synchro can become a NCAA sport, it will make it more likely to gain notice by the IOC because of the scholarships, supporters, funding, and revenue becoming a model for the Olympics. If enough countries have organized synchro programs, that will make the ISU take notice and think about (you guessed it) money. (I believe the IOC wants to see 10 organized country-based programs.)




We need countries with strong national federations supporting the sport--not every sport in the Olympics is an NCAA sport, there are a lot that aren't (like...well...the rest of figure skating, curling, snowboarding, snowboard cross, that awesome sport where peopel ski around and shoot stuff, speed skating, luge, bobsled, archery, ping pong, beach volleyball, synchronized swimming, boxing, equestrian, etc). NCAA may help getting the attention and support of the USOC, who can then lobby the IOC, but the IOC on it's own won't say "oh gee, this is an NCAA sport in the US, so we can go ahead and make it an Olympic sport." That's a decision that all countries involved have to make together. (The letter you cite for synchronized swimming was from the NCAA to the USOC, NOT the IOC.)

The whole phenomenon of college sports and scholarships and using sports to bring revenues to the schools is really a US thing. Sure, schools in other countries have sports teams, but not nearly to the extent that we do here. I have friends who were "varsity figure skaters" in Canada, but that was really more like particpating in club sports here and not a big deal whatsoever. That meant you signed up and went to practice. Elite athletes in other countries stick to training and competing as part of private clubs or teams, or their national teams. Or they come to the US and go to school and train.

If 10 countries is some sort of magic number, synchro isn't there yet. 18 federations were represented at 2010 worlds, but in a lot of those countries it's still a matter of sending a team because they can and rounding up 16 skaters. That's not to undermine what these athletes accomplish--the skaters in Australia or South Africa or New Zealand work very hard, but it's an incredible uphill battle with weak federations and no support for synchro whatsoever (which is not very appealing to the IOC). On top of that, they have slim numbers to choose from, extraordinary costs of ice, difficulty traveling to compete often enough, geographic isolation from coaching and other resources, etc--in some of these countries it's hard to even get skates that fit properly.

[Query]

BTW, in the U.S., most college and university athletics programs lose money.

Only a very few make money. To make money, an athletics program typically has to be given priority over academic and other needs (e.g., parking during games, facility usage) of the rest of the student body.

[sk8lady]

I think the judge must have been prejudiced. Maybe the judge just wanted to be politically correct, or enforce a particular political agenda.

And maybe the judge's ruling will apply to competitive collegiate Dance teams too...

So what if it is a bit dis-organized? A lot of sports are. I don't see why you need a monopoly to be a "sport".

It's a good example of why some judges shouldn't be judges.



Unless you have read the ruling judge's 95-page opinion--which I have--you will not be able to understand the ruling. The judge was very specific in indicating that it was not a question as to how athletic cheerleading was, or how hard the cheerleaders worked; it was a question whether cheerleading met the criteria for being a "sport" under Title XI, which it clearly did not. A lot of the problem had to do with the lack of a single cohesive national entity which would set rules and oversee national competitions, and the difficulty with the school in question's attendance at competitions that pitted them against competititors which included all star and high school students.

Title XI/gender equity law is not my specialty, but I don't see that synchro, which has a national championship run by the national rules administered by the USFS, is in the same position as cheerleading.

[Skittl1321]

Soccer?? No way...there is lots of men's soccer around here. I can agree on Volleyball.

Must be regional- I'm thinking of Big 12 schools and the conference does not have men's soccer.

[RachelSk8er]

Title XI/gender equity law is not my specialty, but I don't see that synchro, which has a national championship run by the national rules administered by the USFS, is in the same position as cheerleading.

We also have a collegiate division, so college teams are against other college taems, not high school/all star teams like competitive cheerleading. But I don't think it looks good in terms of NCAA staus that for the schools that do have senior teams, the collegiate team is pretty much the second (or in the case of Miami third) string group of skaters.

In other sports, college level is (aside from pros) the "top" of the sport. Collegiate synchro has grown leaps and bounds over the years but it's still not there yet and never really should be (we want the best of the best on senior teams representing us internationally). To a lot of skaters coming off of junior and senior teams (especially those that are internationally competitive), it's still a step down in terms of the level of skating and commitment required. It's one program, the standards to make most teams are generally lower, and in most cases you compete less. High school football/baseball/basketball players aren't taking a step down when they go to college teams. That's why we have college-aged skaters not only going to where they can skate on collegiate teams (or college-affiliated senior teams), but they are also going to the Haydenettes and the Crystallettes--they want that shot at international competition and ultimately worlds.

[Query]

Unless you have read the ruling judge's 95-page opinion--which I have--you will not be able to understand the ruling.

Your criticism is completely fair. I only looked public media summaries, which didn't provide sufficient background.

Based on what you say, perhaps Title IX itself, and the way the government interprets it, is the problem.

Is there a potential for this ruling to kill the ability of students to participate professionally or compete internationally in sports and athletic activities, including Olympic sports, and dance, while participating in high school and college sponsored programs?

If so, perhaps Title IX will soon be amended. Maybe ISI and USFSA should become involved in such an effort.

I've never understood why U.S. professional sports recruit from the college athletic pool in such as way as to force most would-be professional athletes to simultaneously be both full time students and full time athletes, to the considerable detriment of both, and to their health. It isn't clear how much benefit most of them get from their education, given the reduced time available for sleep and study. Do other countries have better systems?

[RachelSk8er]

I've never understood why U.S. professional sports recruit from the college athletic pool in such as way as to force most would-be professional athletes to simultaneously be both full time students and full time athletes, to the considerable detriment of both, and to their health. It isn't clear how much benefit most of them get from their education, given the reduced time available for sleep and study. Do other countries have better systems?

In most other countries, elite sports for the 18-22 age group aren't tied to colleges. If you're an elite athlete, usually you continue your training with whatever private club or national team or however your sport is set up (and keep in mind in some countries, i.e. Russia and forumer USSR countries, this is all run by the government). If you're college-age, you either study part-time or completely postpone college until you are no longer really focused on your sport. Or you come to the US for college and do things "our" way, or eventually you might get noticed by professional scouts and come to the US that way (where professional sports are also a much bigger deal). I knew several Swedish/Finnish synchro skaters on some of the top teams in the world and this was the way they explained it to me--they all were skating and going to college part-time, they said even the concept of "going away to college" like we do in the US isn't really popular there, you mostly stay close to home. And in college I lived in a dorm that was half international students and A LOT of them were varsity athletes, Canadian hockey players and the rest were mostly in the smaller sports (tennis, gymnastics, track/field--a few distance runners from African countries). One of my close friends/college roommates is from Lithuania and her brother plays in the NBA. He didn't go to college, he went basically from high school to the "pros" there (nearly not as much $$ or anything as in the US, they call it a professional basketball "club") until he was noticed by US scouts and entered the NBA draft here.

Colleges in other countries do have sports teams, but what they may call "varsity" teams are really more like what we call "club" teams in the US.

When you think about it, that's what a lot of elite skaters do. They either postpone college or they go part-time while they train. A few manage school full-time.