Different skating techniques + spins question

[skatingfan678]

I've noticed that some skaters like Miki Ando tend to connect their jumps in combinations very quickly (i.e. launch from one straight to the other) whereas others like Kim Yuna and Ksenia Makarova like to do a little pose before completing their next jump. Do different skaters have different transitions on purpose?

And also, since some skaters spin faster than others, do the judges actually count how many revolutions you do? Does spinning faster give you a higher score?

Thanks!

[Artemis]

For jump combinations it's often a matter of whether the 2nd jump is a toe jump or an edge jump. Edge jumps go up almost immediately upon landing the first jump, whereas for toe jumps it takes a bit longer to reposition the body. Miki Ando is really good at combinations where the second jump is a loop (an edge jump) -- they're really "blink and you'll miss it."

For spins, you bet the judges are counting revolutions! Well, actually the technical specialists are. If you don't complete the required # of revolutions, the spin simply doesn't count. And speed factors in both as part of the Program Components mark and the grade of execution for the spin Element mark.

[Schmeck]

But you can also be credited for a well done spin that actually is on tempo with the music - for instance, a scratch spin wouldn't really go well with a slower section of music, but a controlled, well done layback/combination spin would, and it wouldn't have to be a fast one, just enough revs to count.

[skatingfan678]

Thank you for all the explanations. I've always wondered how the technical specialists can possibly count the revolutions for fast spinners like Stephane Lambiel and Mirai Nagasu etc.

I love watching Ando's jumps, they look so sensational.

But on a different note, I'm just wondering why on earth are Kim Yuna's scores so much higher than most other skaters? I see others skaters who do exceptionally clean routines executing their spins and jumps perfectly and end up getting 10 points lower than her...it's mindboggling

[sk8tmum]

Are you looking at the breakdown of the marks? There are technical marks (jumps, spins) and also the PCS marks (skating skills, choreography, interpretation etc) - and the PCS marks can make or break a skaters's performance ...

A clean routine with everything landed is not going to be as well scored as a technically intricate routine with complicated jump and spin entries and with transitions between jumps; similarly, a fast Level 1 spin, although clean and well executed, is never going to score as well as a slightly slower Level 4 spin. It's the levels and GOE that matter on the jumps and spins.

There are video replays, however, tech specialists, especially at that level, are very highly trained and are also chosen to be there for a reason. I can generally count the revs myself quite accurately (according to a couple of tech reps) - it's just a matter of practicing and practicing.

[Artemis]

Technical specialists also have access to slo-mo film. They don't use it for every element, but if they're in any doubt (about the # of revolutions for a spin, or a questionable entrance or a cheated landing of a jump) then they'll use that to make doubly sure.

[Schmeck]

And also, since some skaters spin faster than others, do the judges actually count how many revolutions you do? Does spinning faster give you a higher score?

Thanks!

They count to make sure enough revs are done, but skaters don't get a higher score just because they've done more revs. A judge can give a higher GOE for many reasons, not just because a spin is fast.

[Isk8NYC]

If a skater holds the spin position with sustained speed for eight or more revolutions, it's considered an IJS Feature. I think it was introduced in the last two years.

[Virtualsk8r]

yes - the eight revolutions on one foot does count as a 'bullet' in the IJS - however, only if it is done in a camel or sit position. The upright (US) does not count any longer for the eight revolutions.

Big changes to the IJS this season - and still changing! Skaters are no longer allowed to use the same difficult spin variation over and over and over again in a program. For example, a broken leg sit position is a difficult sit variation and counts as a 'bullet. Do that for 8 rotations - forward and backward - and you used to get an automatic Level 4 sit spin. No longer ---
Broken leg position can only be used ONCE in a program, so coaches now have to be more inventive and skaters are forced to learn different variations! A good thing!

We were getting too many difficult, weird spins. A lot of last year's level 4 spins would be level 1 or 2 this season, so it should be interesting to see how skaters adapt.

Major changes for spins: only two features allowed per foot , can only use difficult variation once in a program and each difficult variation must be identifably different - Change of edge only counts in front sit or any camel - no longer in upright or backward entry sit - Sit position definition has changed so that hip must be parallel with knee (no longer bottom of butt) - and flying position must be achieved in the air in order to count (so flying sit must have a definite leg tuck in the air....there goes all my adult students!).

It's a challenge now developing spins for programs that will actually count and be called!

[fsk8r]

yes - the eight revolutions on one foot does count as a 'bullet' in the IJS - however, only if it is done in a camel or sit position. The upright (US) does not count any longer for the eight revolutions.

Big changes to the IJS this season - and still changing! Skaters are no longer allowed to use the same difficult spin variation over and over and over again in a program. For example, a broken leg sit position is a difficult sit variation and counts as a 'bullet. Do that for 8 rotations - forward and backward - and you used to get an automatic Level 4 sit spin. No longer ---
Broken leg position can only be used ONCE in a program, so coaches now have to be more inventive and skaters are forced to learn different variations! A good thing!

We were getting too many difficult, weird spins. A lot of last year's level 4 spins would be level 1 or 2 this season, so it should be interesting to see how skaters adapt.

Major changes for spins: only two features allowed per foot , can only use difficult variation once in a program and each difficult variation must be identifably different - Change of edge only counts in front sit or any camel - no longer in upright or backward entry sit - Sit position definition has changed so that hip must be parallel with knee (no longer bottom of butt) - and flying position must be achieved in the air in order to count (so flying sit must have a definite leg tuck in the air....there goes all my adult students!).

It's a challenge now developing spins for programs that will actually count and be called!

As an adult skater, I just want to check I'm reading this correctly. I no longer rely on my "rear assets" to get my sit spin called, but actually have to bend my knee further?
And having just been shown how to try and change edge on a forward upright that's not going to count for anything so I better start playing around with it on my sit spin (which is now not low enough)?

[Virtualsk8r]

Yup - having great "assets" are not longer a bonus! :P
I'm not sure how the adult rules will pan out this year - haven't seen any new revisions using the IJS/CoP system for judging adults events yet.

However - the new ISU rules, which Canada and USA will adopt for the lower test levels as well - now requires that the top of the thigh has to be parallel with the ice " _________ " or else the spin is called an intermediate position and not counted as a sit spin!!!!

Flying sits have to achieve the 'sit tuck position' in the air in order to be counted as a flying sit spin now -- no more of those little hops up and then sink into a squatting sit!

Not only my adult skaters - but competitive guys as well - are in deep trouble over the new definition of a sit spin...Can't get down parallel to the ice!!! One guy complained that 'stuff' gets in the way :lol:

[blue111moon]

Actually, if a not-low-enough sit spin gets called as a sit but with no level, that could be a good thing for adults. In the past, a not-low-enough sit got called as a bad upright, and then if you did another (good) upright somewhere later in the program, it didn't count at all! So it was a double hit: If nothing else, at least the callers might recognize the NLE sit as an attempt at a sit, even if it gets no credit.

[sk8tmum]

'kay, just checking - I looked at the ISU Technical Panel handbook for 2010/11:

Sit: the upper part of the skating leg at least parallel to the ice.

Which would mean to me that you can can go BELOW the parallel in a sit spin and still have it "sitting" - ? The at least being the qualifier there. Still have lots of broken-legs being used as a difficult variation in sits, as well as well-below-the-horizontal spins, in our rink.

And as to the flying sit spin ... I see the need for the in-air tuck in the requirements for a level, but, is it a requirement to have it to be actually counted for a flying sit? I've heard lots of cursing and muttering about the need for variations in variations in the spins, but, not about the change in entry requirements for this flying spin ... however, I am quite pleased (on a personal level for my skater) - that deathdrops &butterflies are now explicitly called as a Level feature.

Flying Sit Spin
In a flying sit spin “landing on the same foot as take off or changing foot on
landing” is counted as a Level feature only when the sit position is attained in
the air.

[sk8tmum]

Actually, if a not-low-enough sit spin gets called as a sit but with no level, that could be a good thing for adults. In the past, a not-low-enough sit got called as a bad upright, and then if you did another (good) upright somewhere later in the program, it didn't count at all! So it was a double hit: If nothing else, at least the callers might recognize the NLE sit as an attempt at a sit, even if it gets no credit.

The first time I saw FUSp on my kid's detail sheets ... I assumed it was the worst "screwed up" spin imaginable, and that was an overly harsh commentary on it ... fortunately, I got the translation to Flying Upright Spin given to me ...