What makes it so much harder to execute elements within a program?

[momof3chicks]

I noticed that for all the kids, even though they get really good and pretty consistent on a certain jump or spin, once they have to perform them in a program, it drops way down in consistency for a while until they do the program over and over.

What is it? The music, the step sequences, having to concentrate on so many different things?

[Ellyn]

For me, it's fatigue. The muscles don't have time to recover from one move before it's time to start the next. Even worse if I forget to breathe regularly.

Heartrate goes up.

It's also hard to maintain full mental concentration for the length of the program without letup.

[Isk8NYC]

I think much of the difficulty is mental - having to think ahead to what comes next while executing the current element.

[Tennisany1]

It would be interesting to know what the real difference in consistency is. I'm sure there is one, but I wonder if it is as big as we think, or if skaters think elements are more consistent than they really are. I know when I watch my dd, and then ask her later about something she was working on, she often doesn't realize how many times she did element to get those 5 or 6 really clean ones. She will say things like "I landed 5 out of six double loops today." Yes, she did, BUT she started counting when she started landing them and didn't count the 5 or 6 tries that she considered "warm ups." That is the difference between 50% consistency and 90% consistency - or between having an element in a program or not.

I also agree with the above posters that it probably also has something to do with the mental part and fatigue.

[Kim to the Max]

For me, it's a timing issue in a program. When I am doing jumps or spins or anything else just in isolation, I take my time, think about what I'm doing, hold an edge longer, etc., but in a program, things need to be done within a certain time, need to fit the music, etc. and I just get all screwed up. It takes a lot of practice for me to start doing things in a program.

And, as for my axel, that is completely and totally me being a head case :)

[cazzie]

I know one of the parents of the more advanced skaters at rink reckoned it took 18 months from when her daughter first learnt double lutz to the point when she could consistently land a double lutz in a program.

She didn't ahve an explanation -but - told it to me as fact.

As for axel - most I can say is my daughter stays on her feet but has done some fully rotated double axels (not cleanly landed) instead of the singles she should be doing and I do think its mental. Coach very much working on her "not trying" so hard during a program - repeats it to her over and over again - just relax, don't try, skate like you're doing it any old how..... seems to improve things a bit. Harder she tries -the worse everything gets.

[sk8tmum]

In terms of consistency: every single individual skater is different, and every skater will gain and lose jumps over their skating lifetime. There is no "rule" or "guideline" - and I've seen lots of parents drive themselves nuts listening to the bleacher experts (aka Skating Moms) - who will tell them that their OWN child is Wonderful Because They Got Their Axel in 3 Months and It Was Consistent in One Week - (so what is wrong with your kid, and clearly your kid isn't as good). Having been around for a lot of years, I also notice that they DO NOT mention that their kid six weeks later loses it and can't land the darned thing for 6 months :lol:

I have seen 2LZ consistent in 2 weeks and in 2 years, from equally talented and hardworking skaters; I have seen extremely good skaters who still do not have a 2A but have a 3S. Take a look at Patrick Chan if you want to look at someone who struggles with consistency on an axel, for example.

In terms of elements in a program: a) you are doing it while you are trying to remember all of the program; b) you cannot wait for the "perfect" entry to it, i.e. if you have it consistent from crosscuts, you go around until you are ready to do it; can't do that in a program c) you often enter it from steps or someother transition, which may not be your preferred method but which the choreography requires; d) you may need a choreography change - we have entries changed to accomodate personal preferences regularly until the best result is achieved. And, yes, it can definitely be mental, which also feeds into the discussion about skaters who can perform on practice ice but not either in competitions or in a test.

In Canada, we do elements seperate from program for test track testing. At our Senior Bronze level, the kids have to land double jumps. I have seen LOTS and LOTS be able to pass the elements in isolation, but, not be able to rotate a single darned double jump in the program cleanly.

(My kid, BTW, lands them better in the program than in isolation for some jumps, as the music and the program distracts from worrying about landing the jumps. Every kid is different.)

[Tennisany1]

In terms of consistency: every single individual skater is different, and every skater will gain and lose jumps over their skating lifetime. There is no "rule" or "guideline" - and I've seen lots of parents drive themselves nuts listening to the bleacher experts (aka Skating Moms) - who will tell them that their OWN child is Wonderful Because They Got Their Axel in 3 Months and It Was Consistent in One Week - (so what is wrong with your kid, and clearly your kid isn't as good). Having been around for a lot of years, I also notice that they DO NOT mention that their kid six weeks later loses it and can't land the darned thing for 6 months :lol:...

This is so so true! Moms also often don't count all the prep time (waltz loop, waltz back spin etc.) when telling you about how long it took their child to land an axel. There are also axels and then there are axels. Those little spinning things that barely leave the ground are quite different from the lovely big axels that actually look quite slow in the air.

Dd has become quite philosophical with some of the kids she skates with. She will tell me that so and so says they can land xx double jump and then she rolls her eyes. She knows they don't really have it but she is not going to argue with them as it doesn't affect her in any way. I'm sure I've said this before and I've read other posters say it as well, our rule is when you have landed it cleanly in competition twice you can say you have a jump. Up until then you are just working on it. Interestingly, with that definition she doesn't tend to "lose" jumps.

[momof3chicks]

It would be interesting to know what the real difference in consistency is. I'm sure there is one, but I wonder if it is as big as we think, or if skaters think elements are more consistent than they really are. I know when I watch my dd, and then ask her later about something she was working on, she often doesn't realize how many times she did element to get those 5 or 6 really clean ones. She will say things like "I landed 5 out of six double loops today." Yes, she did, BUT she started counting when she started landing them and didn't count the 5 or 6 tries that she considered "warm ups." That is the difference between 50% consistency and 90% consistency - or between having an element in a program or not.

I also agree with the above posters that it probably also has something to do with the mental part and fatigue.

Good points, for example, while my dd has a very nice double lutz, she still likes to do her single lutz once first, then the double. She also is trying to use a bit more speed during the program going into the jumps it seems.

[momof3chicks]

I know one of the parents of the more advanced skaters at rink reckoned it took 18 months from when her daughter first learnt double lutz to the point when she could consistently land a double lutz in a program.

She didn't ahve an explanation -but - told it to me as fact.

As for axel - most I can say is my daughter stays on her feet but has done some fully rotated double axels (not cleanly landed) instead of the singles she should be doing and I do think its mental. Coach very much working on her "not trying" so hard during a program - repeats it to her over and over again - just relax, don't try, skate like you're doing it any old how..... seems to improve things a bit. Harder she tries -the worse everything gets.

Yes, there is that too....dd has an 'automatic' axel now, so that always goes well, she also had a pretty 'automatic' double sal, but the others still take thought.

[momof3chicks]

This is so so true! Moms also often don't count all the prep time (waltz loop, waltz back spin etc.) when telling you about how long it took their child to land an axel. There are also axels and then there are axels. Those little spinning things that barely leave the ground are quite different from the lovely big axels that actually look quite slow in the air.

Dd has become quite philosophical with some of the kids she skates with. She will tell me that so and so says they can land xx double jump and then she rolls her eyes. She knows they don't really have it but she is not going to argue with them as it doesn't affect her in any way. I sure I've said this before and I've read other posters say it as well, are rule is when you have landed it cleanly in competition twice you can say you have a jump. Up until then you are just working on it. Interestingly, with that definition she doesn't tend to "lose" jumps.

So true on the new vs. seasoned axel. I reminded dd about how ugly her first attempts at axels in a program were and that actually, her attempts at 2flip and 2lutz this week were not even nearly THAT ugly. And of course, now that her program is complete, she can start to practice the jumps using the same series of steps as in her program.

I find this interesting because it seems pretty universal among the skaters at her rink.

[momof3chicks]

In terms of elements in a program: a) you are doing it while you are trying to remember all of the program; b) you cannot wait for the "perfect" entry to it, i.e. if you have it consistent from crosscuts, you go around until you are ready to do it; can't do that in a program c) you often enter it from steps or someother transition, which may not be your preferred method but which the choreography requires; d) you may need a choreography change - we have entries changed to accomodate personal preferences regularly until the best result is achieved. And, yes, it can definitely be mental, which also feeds into the discussion about skaters who can perform on practice ice but not either in competitions or in a test.



This all makes a lot of sense. :)

[twokidsskatemom]

[QUOTE=Tennisany1;419222]This is so so true! Moms also often don't count all the prep time (waltz loop, waltz back spin etc.) when telling you about how long it took their child to land an axel. There are also axels and then there are axels. Those little spinning things that barely leave the ground are quite different from the lovely big axels that actually look quite slow in the air.

Dd has become quite philosophical with some of the kids she skates with. She will tell me that so and so says they can land xx double jump and then she rolls her eyes. She knows they don't really have it but she is not going to argue with them as it doesn't affect her in any way. I sure I've said this before and I've read other posters say it as well, are rule is when you have landed it cleanly in competition twice you can say you have a jump. Up until then you are just working on it. Interestingly, with that definition she doesn't tend to "lose" jumps.[/QUO
amen to that!!