Why/is it an advantage to be short??

[sleepyhead]

Being new to skating (through DD), I've read a few times that it's an advantage to be short, and I'm just curious about why that is??

[phoenix]

If the skater is a singles skater, height is a disadvantage for several reasons. The shorter the skater, the lower the center of gravity, which makes spins and jumps easier. The more compact the body, the easier it is to rotate a jump. Plus, a taller person would weigh more, making the height for jumping harder to achieve.

For pairs, obviously the girl needs to be very small and very light for the lifts & throws.

Dancers, however, do tend to be taller, as the long leg lines are more important in that discipline.

[sk8tmum]

taller also can be perceived as less "dainty" and "graceful"; there is more to "see" thus mistakes can be more easily seen (I've noted that widestepping on a mohawk is much easier to see if the widestep is on a tall girl with a long stride, for example).

For dance, yes, dancers can be taller, however, when you are actually - tall - it can be hard to find anyone to partner you, as many male skaters fall in the lower range of the male height spectrum - and you do want some variance in height.

My 5'9" daughter struggles with her height on a lot of levels - harder to jump and learn jumps due to the need to put "more" size in the air, plus the centre of gravity issue noted already; hard to find someone to partner her for dance - and she also feels like a giant among the 5'5"-and-under set. Harder to find dresses ... harder to find tights ... skates in her size aren't always in stock ... same with the blades ...

On the plus side, her camel spin looks amazing, her ice coverage when stroking is impressive, and when she jumps "big" - well, the height, power and distance are very impressive!

[GoSveta]

Taller can present much better lines than shorter skaters. Lucinda Ruh was relatively tall and her positions were better than about 99.99999% of skaters out there, even the ones who were winning gold medals. It's not about appearing dainty or elegant... Long, lean lines can do that much better than compact, somewhat muscular bodies (how many 5'4" models do you know?). That's often a general opinion in Gymnastics, but has been proven untrue time and time again.

It's about physics, and the first reply is spot on.

You have more length to pull in when you rotate in the air, you have to be more powerful because you will require more height in jumps (think Victoria Volchkova vs. Tara Lipinski), and any adjustments in spins will affect the spin a lot more on a taller person, and it will take more energy to work over that adjustment because the center of gravity is higher and typically there will be more weight off-balance in the spin.

There have been more than enough tall elite skaters with all their triples, so it shouldn't discourage anyone form skating :P

[Purple Sparkly]

I find being short to be a disadvantage in adult artistic/dramatic interp events. The top 4-5 skaters seem to almost always be very tall with long legs and sometimes seem to win regardless of whether or not they actually interpret the music and more because they have pretty lines. It can be very frustrating because I can work on my skating skills and musical interpretation all day long, but I cannot make myself taller.

I heard someone say once that long legs look really nice on the ice, but only if you are using them properly. A poorly extended long leg is more noticeable than a poorly exended short leg.

[RachelSk8er]

Being on the taller end is also an advantage in synchro. Some of the top teams ideally want skaters in the 5'6-5'9 range. But that really depends on the team. I'm 5'4 and was usually somewhere in the middle in terms of height on my team once I got to the junior/senior levels, although my last year I was actually one of the taller skaters (almost the entire team was in the 5'1-5'4 range that year, only 2 girls were actually taller than me). The next year, I was cut from a different team because they would not look at anyone under 5'6 and the entire team ended up being about 5'8-5'10 once tryouts were over. Now that senior teams can do lifts they are not quite as picky, because they need a few light skaters to hoist into the air, but you can always find a few of those 5'6-ish skaters who are all bones and still really light.

Makes sense, if you've got too much of a range it looks awkward and it's harder to work with, although I've also been on teams where there was almost a foot difference between the shortest and tallest skaters on the team and we made it work.

Taller can present much better lines than shorter skaters. Lucinda Ruh was relatively tall and her positions were better than about 99.99999% of skaters out there, even the ones who were winning gold medals. It's not about appearing dainty or elegant... Long, lean lines can do that much better than compact, somewhat muscular bodies (how many 5'4" models do you know?). That's often a general opinion in Gymnastics, but has been proven untrue time and time again.

Back in the '08 Olympics, that's why I liked watching Nastia Liukin. In reality she's not tall but for a gymnast, 5'3 is a giant, and she had such a pretty/graceful line compared to the little compact under 5' gymnasts.

[Schmeck]

Being on the taller end is also an advantage in synchro. Some of the top teams ideally want skaters in the 5'6-5'9 range. But that really depends on the team. I'm 5'4 and was usually somewhere in the middle in terms of height on my team once I got to the junior/senior levels, although my last year I was actually one of the taller skaters (almost the entire team was in the 5'1-5'4 range that year, only 2 girls were actually taller than me). The next year, I was cut from a different team because they would not look at anyone under 5'6 and the entire team ended up being about 5'8-5'10 once tryouts were over. Now that senior teams can do lifts they are not quite as picky, because they need a few light skaters to hoist into the air, but you can always find a few of those 5'6-ish skaters who are all bones and still really light.



The team that cut you lost out then. I know a few Haydenettes, and they don't seem to really make too much fuss over height - the girls I know are all on the small side height-wise, and made the team, no problem.

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach skates synchro and she is about 5'2" I'm 5'6" and had a time finding a pair partner-they were all so much shorter than me!

My center of gravity is higher and it make spinning harder. Jumping I'm not sure about. But the look of your line has to be on the money or you look sloppy. Although I think an experienced judge will see it in a shorter skater as well.

[Query]

Is it a coincidence that most of the better male ice dance coaches I know are fairly tall?

I know they need strength to lift the gal, but the coaches in question are still very thin, not like the solid muscle bulk you see in a football and most good hockey players.

(Oddly enough, "Battle of the Blades" demonstrated that some hockey players have the potential to ice dance.)

Or maybe it's just the ones I know.

[Tennisany1]

IMHO a lot of talk about shorter being better started in the days before scientific off ice training. It was exacerbated by the fact the kids who grow early are often not as successful at the early stages and give up early leaving more short ones in the senior ranks. Also, where your centre of gravity is depends on the length of your legs. I'm fairly tall 5'9" but my legs are shorter than my sister who is 5'5" therefore my center of gravity is actually lower. (She just has amazing long legs.) Unfortunately people tend to lump "tall" as a group, which is inaccurate.

The reigning Olympic Men's Champion is 6'1" and can do all the triples. A well trained female with great core and leg strength who is 5'8" to 5'10" should also be able to do triples. What I do notice is that coaches are predisposed to the short kids. There is the real possibility that this also contributes to the success of shorter skaters.

You can probably tell that it drives me nuts when this myth that short is better is perpetuated. Success depends on a lot of factors. Body type (which is a combination of height, weight, muscle mass, proportion of fast and slow twitch muscles, bust size, hip size etc.) is only one factor and it does not have to be the determining factor. Musicality, natural talent, work ethic, personality, and, of course, money also help determine how far a skater will go.

[GoSveta]

I don't know about Synchro, but I get the impression that they don't have to do double and triple jumps there, or complex spin combinations and unorthodox positions.

If that's the case, then the body length can be an advantage for them (as it often is in dance, for aesthetic reasons).

[Isk8NYC]

IMHO a lot of talk about shorter being better started in the days before scientific off ice training. It was exacerbated by the fact the kids who grow early are often not as successful at the early stages and give up early leaving more short ones in the senior ranks. Also, where your centre of gravity is depends on the length of your legs. I'm fairly tall 5'9" but my legs are shorter than my sister who is 5'5" therefore my center of gravity is actually lower. (She just has amazing long legs.) Unfortunately people tend to lump "tall" as a group, which is inaccurate.

The reigning Olympic Men's Champion is 6'1" and can do all the triples. A well trained female with great core and leg strength who is 5'8" to 5'10" should also be able to do triples. What I do notice is that coaches are predisposed to the short kids. There is the real possibility that this also contributes to the success of shorter skaters.

You can probably tell that it drives me nuts when this myth that short is better is perpetuated. Success depends on a lot of factors. Body type (which is a combination of height, weight, muscle mass, proportion of fast and slow twitch muscles, bust size, hip size etc.) is only one factor and it does not have to be the determining factor. Musicality, natural talent, work ethic, personality, and, of course, money also help determine how far a skater will go.

I thought Lysacek was over 6' but someone who's skated with him said he's shorter.

[phoenix]

Body type (which is a combination of height, weight, muscle mass, proportion of fast and slow twitch muscles, bust size, hip size etc.) is only one factor and it does not have to be the determining factor. Musicality, natural talent, work ethic, personality, and, of course, money also help determine how far a skater will go.

Body type is only one factor, but it is a big factor. A taller skater will have to work harder than a small one to achieve the same things. Every time they grow the jumps/spins get messed up. Some skaters can get them back some can't. It's certainly not impossible to be successful or even elite if you're tall, but it does take more determination and physical strength.

I am tall, and I have a very difficult time with the fast dances--not just the timing, but also the expression--it's very hard for me to make my skating look sharp and crisp. I've failed many a dance for lack of "crispness" while I typically pass a waltz or other flowy style dance the first time out.

[GoSveta]

IMHO a lot of talk about shorter being better started in the days before scientific off ice training. It was exacerbated by the fact the kids who grow early are often not as successful at the early stages and give up early leaving more short ones in the senior ranks. Also, where your centre of gravity is depends on the length of your legs. I'm fairly tall 5'9" but my legs are shorter than my sister who is 5'5" therefore my center of gravity is actually lower. (She just has amazing long legs.) Unfortunately people tend to lump "tall" as a group, which is inaccurate.

The reigning Olympic Men's Champion is 6'1" and can do all the triples. A well trained female with great core and leg strength who is 5'8" to 5'10" should also be able to do triples. What I do notice is that coaches are predisposed to the short kids. There is the real possibility that this also contributes to the success of shorter skaters.

You can probably tell that it drives me nuts when this myth that short is better is perpetuated. Success depends on a lot of factors. Body type (which is a combination of height, weight, muscle mass, proportion of fast and slow twitch muscles, bust size, hip size etc.) is only one factor and it does not have to be the determining factor. Musicality, natural talent, work ethic, personality, and, of course, money also help determine how far a skater will go.

@ Bold: What does that have to do with how good a skater is, in the technical sense?

You can have the greatest amount Charisma and musicality in the world, but if you show up to the Olympics with inconsistent triples, bad spins, and no speed you will still get beat by the dead-faced skater who can't keep a beat, but has all the technical elements.

As far as natural talent goes... Lots of Skating and Gymnastics careers of naturally talented atheletes has been ended by growth spurts.

Physics doesn't care if you look happy on the ice or can keep a beat. Physics also doesn't say it's impossible - just more difficult to do the same things with an elongated body. It's not a myth, it's science. Taller skaters have a harder time doing jumps because they require more height, their center of balance is higher, and there is more centrifugal force. Some spin positions are also harder. A Biellman spin on a 5'1" skater is much easier than on a 5'8" skater - assuming both have the required flexibility, of course.

How many skaters that tall do you know [of - you mention 6'1" for Lysacek, who doesn't even have a consistent quad - if at all anymore], who consistently rotate and land quad jumps, and why do you think Tara Lipinski was able to do triple triples with 1/3 the height most ladies require for them?

[fsk8r]

I thought Lysacek was over 6' but someone who's skated with him said he's shorter.

knee bend?

[Schmeck]

and why do you think Tara Lipinski was able to do triple triples with 1/3 the height most ladies require for them?

Lipinski is a horrible example for triple-triples IMO, because she cheated them and jumped like a roller skater. She also had that ankle-snapping flutz. How about using one of the most recent Olympic Podium ladies instead?

[Tennisany1]

@ Bold: What does that have to do with how good a skater is, in the technical sense?...

Personality has a lot to do with how hard a person works, how well they take correction, how they handle defeat and disappointment, and well or poorly they handle the stress of competition. But of course, none of that has anything to do with how well they skate :roll:

Just compare the careers of Johnny Weir and Evan L. Johnny is loaded with talent, Evan, while not untalented, doesn't have the same natural flow and line that Johnny has. I don't know anything about Johnny's work habits, but I have been told by people who have watched Evan train that he is one of the hardest working skaters out there. What Evan has in spades is a personality that drives him to be the best. To take corrections and make then happen, to work until it is a perfect as it can be. That is where personality plays a huge roll in success. There are lots of short talented skaters who never make it anywhere because they simply don't have that special something that drives them.

My point is that it is not height alone that makes things easier or more difficult and simply saying it is height probably causes a fair amount of self selection at the early stages of skating. By your theory, a 5'5" skater with a 36DD bust and 38 inch hips has a better chance than a 5'8" skater with a 32AA bust and 34 inch hips. I disagree. There is more to any sport than how tall you are.

[kssk8fan]

I really don't think height, or lack there of, matters at all. I think the successful, elite skaters have so much more going for them, than just their height. $$$, musicality, dedication and drive, committment, great coaching, and access to plenty of off-ice and ballet. Those things just listed will help any skater overcome any barrier to skating!

I do however think it is extremely important to manage growth spurts appropriately. I think that's the key to longevity and success in this sport.

Not to forget, the last three olympic champions have been 5'5"...that's pretty tall considering the focus is always on tiny.

[GoSveta]

Lipinski is a horrible example for triple-triples IMO, because she cheated them and jumped like a roller skater. She also had that ankle-snapping flutz. How about using one of the most recent Olympic Podium ladies instead?

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Lipinski's Triple Loop/Triple Loop.

Mao Asada is hardly a testament to good jumping technique, and Kim Yu-Na is not foreign to under-rotating triples, especially in combinations. Can she even do a Triple Loop?

Speaking of which, when did the benchmark for being a great skater began to = you can do all triples... minus one?

Follow-Up to other poster: All things being equal, the shorter skater will have an easier time with the large bust and hips, because they will have an easier time staying balanced as well as pulling in for jumps - since their limbs are shorter. It's not my theory. It's the laws of physics. That doesn't mean it's impossible for the longer skater. It will just take more work to "perfect" and more energy and/or finesse in execution.

[GoSveta]

5'5" is not tall. Even for a woman.

Lol.

[Skate@Delaware]

5'5" is not tall. Even for a woman.

Lol.
The height of the average American woman is 5'4" (according to my nursing book)....I'm not sure about other countries. My daughter is 5'3" and considered "average height" while at 5'6" I'm considered "tall." When I went on vacation to Italy a few years ago, most of the people I talked to called me "very tall" and most of the hotel beds weren't long enough for me LOL!

[GoSveta]

One inch over average is not tall, though.

I've been to spain, france, Bahrain, malta and other countries and I've never seen a bed that wasn't long enough for someone 5'6" in a hotel. Must be an Italian thing.

I'm 5'4" (but a man, not a woman). If I seen a 5'9" woman on the ice, then yea I'd be surprised (well... I've seen some tall'ish ice dancers... just not freestylers).

How tall was Victoria Volchkova?

[Tennisany1]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Lipinski's Triple Loop/Triple Loop.....Follow-Up to other poster: All things being equal, the shorter skater will have an easier time with the large bust and hips, because they will have an easier time staying balanced as well as pulling in for jumps - since their limbs are shorter. It's not my theory. It's the laws of physics. That doesn't mean it's impossible for the longer skater. It will just take more work to "perfect" and more energy and/or finesse in execution.

I think I will leave Tara safely in the past .. I'm not going to flog that dead horse. As for the laws of physics, the problem with your statement it nothing is ever equal. Furthermore, the ability to rotate comes from the strength of core / ab muscles and the how streamline the body is. Just ask Elene G about that! Sure, a body like Sasha Cohen might be ideal, but she was beaten on a number of occasions but skaters with less perfect body types. The problem with the shorter is better at all costs theory is that it create a climate where taller skaters, who could be very successful, self select out because they think there is no use trying. It also, IMO, causes coaches to give preferential treatment to the little ones. I must admit I find it amusing (not for the poor child, but for the coach who should know better) when one of the little ones doesn't turn out as expected and gets to juvenile / pre novice / novice and is soundly beaten by one of the "big ones" that no one was interested in.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you. I stand by my theory that the potential success of any skater, or any athlete for that matter, depends on a whole host of different variables and can not be summed up by height alone.

[phoenix]

I'm not going to continue to argue with you. I stand by my theory that the potential success of any skater, or any athlete for that matter, depends on a whole host of different variables and can not be summed up by height alone.

No one here is saying that it's height alone.

[ibreakhearts66]

I've definitely heard comments from coaches regarding height that, if overheard by another tall skater, could be very discouraging. The comments have always come to me as "you rotate/jump/spin/whatever well for a tall girl. Usually tall girls can't rotate/jump/spin/whatever." I'm 5'7--not even THAT tall. If I were a tall girl just starting and overheard that comment, I KNOW I would feel discouraged.

I think it's important for people to remember that natural talent and skill can come in ALL sizes. I don't want to sound cocky, and I'm really not all that tall, but I've had NONE of the issues that are supposed to be such a problem. I'm a natural spinner, rotate very easily, have next to no problems fully rotating jumps, etc, and never HAVE had those problems EXCEPT for when I was more around 5'4. In fact, even though I've had a few complaints about being a taller skater, the biggest being that mistakes are magnified, I wouldn't switch places with a short skater any day. Since I AM on the taller side with long legs, when I do things well, they can be really striking. I don't need to have a full split spiral for it to look elegant. I can cover more ice with fewer pushes (although that's NOT such a good thing when you run out of ice in a moves test). Even a jump of average height looks big because it IS big compared to the jumps of a smaller skater.

I used to resent my height. I really, REALLY hated it. I mean, I liked being tall-ish when out in the normal world, but in the skating world it just made me stick out like an EXTRA sore thumb because even if there was a skater around my age, they were most like 4 or more inches shorter.

Now I'm just pissed that I let generalizations about how the laws of physics should affect skaters hate my body. It's bad enough to be consumed about your weight, but your height too? I hear too much about the 10 and 11 year old skaters calling themselves fat and trying to diet--they shouldn't be made to worry about their height too.

Sorry. That was a little preach-y, but I spent WAY too long literally killing myself to make myself weigh the same amount as skaters half a foot shorter than me. I don't care what the laws of physics say. There are ALWAYS exceptions, and I would have been far better off trying to make myself an exception over trying to make myself smaller. Body image struggles happen in this sport, but no skater should make themselves sick and unhealthy because they're told they have more to hoist into the air.

[GoSveta]

No one in the thread made any broad, sweeping generalizations. No one made any comments that could force someone into an E.D. or induce any level of self-hatred. I do have empathy for what you've been through, and while I see your point I think delving into that really brings the thread to a precarious level.

In short, I think some people are overreacting to comments in the thread. Others are selectively overlooking sections of posts to get their "points across." Constantly being told "... height alone ..." can get frustrating when you've never inferred anything like that, and clearly wrote [and meant] the contrary.

Onto more substanative things. A girl 5'2" doing split spirals is impressive. A girl 5'7" doing split spirals is even more impressive because their body length causes them to require more strength since they must lift more weight to get their leg up there. Taller != Stronger. It's also (aforementioned) harder to balance the element. Yes, the length of their body does allow them to create a more jaw-dropping shape doing the same element.

Going back to my previous example. Lucinda Ruh was an expert spinner, and one of the more flexible skaters in the world when she competed, but she could not do a split spiral despite having all the requisite flexibility. I have a hard time thinking she was "weak" by conventional standards. However, lifting your leg that high when you're 5'9" (that's how tall she was/is) is extremely difficult, very tiring, and quite precarious.

We've seen Sasha Cohen have to bail on a spiral when she had to check it. A skater as tall as Lucinda probably would have collapsed instead, because the balance center is much higher and it's much more difficult to check/save those elements when the shift is that high and so wide.

Rotating lower level jumps isn't the same as doing triples, triple doubles, and triple triples. For those jumps you have to pull in very fast, or you run the risk of underrotating. Of course, if you're a very high jumper (and many tall skaters are, especially for toe jumps), then you may have some breathing room for that. Elite skaters have trained for years and developed the necessary strength and developed the muscles to deal with their bodies during training. They do what they can with what they they have (which can be - and often is - a LOT, if they train properly). The only thing we (or rather, posters who have posted similar posts to mine) is that:

1. There can be some limitations that are very difficult, sometimes impossible, to overcome
2. You may have to work harder, sometimes much harder, than another skater who has a shorter body to do the same elements; and
3. The process of acquiring that height can be a dangerous span of time in a skater's career, and must be handled appropriately

I did a bit of rough research, and it seems like the average height of US Ladies Figure Skating Champions is ~5'3".

What we say in this thread is for the purpose of discussion, not to disuade or discourage "taller" skaters from progressing in the sport and working towards their dreams. There is nothing wrong with being told that your physical characteristics may require you to work a bit harder than others. This is the case for many sports.

"The laws of physics" may seem crude, but there's no other way to put it.

Sorry for the hardship you endured. I am not intending to inflict any more upon you. My sincere apologies, and I hope everything goes well for you now and in the future.

[ibreakhearts66]

Ugh I had typed up a long response but lost it, but I was not meaning to criticize the conversation taking place at all. I think it's a great discussion. It was more of a general rant. I'm probably a little overly sensitive right now, but it just frustrates me that it's become more or less taboo for coaches to comment on a skater's weight and the width of their body, but it's acceptable for them to comment on their height. Skaters shouldn't have to be afraid of what their genetics determine. I just hate knowing that a sport can dictate how a skater feels about their appearance. I don't know that there's anything that can be done, except maybe educate skaters on how different things that they can't control like money, height, body type, natural talent etc can affect their skating at different times in their life while removing the judgment.

[RachelSk8er]

Is it a coincidence that most of the better male ice dance coaches I know are fairly tall?

I know they need strength to lift the gal, but the coaches in question are still very thin, not like the solid muscle bulk you see in a football and most good hockey players.

(Oddly enough, "Battle of the Blades" demonstrated that some hockey players have the potential to ice dance.)

Or maybe it's just the ones I know.


Most of the ones around here are tall (5'10-6'2) and on the thin side as well. Most of them are in their late 30s + and have not competed and therefore have not had to do a lift in quite some time (so some of the muscle and whatnot they may have had may have left ofver time). But the youngest is 25, competed up until a few years ago, has a few students who he is testing free dance with and so he's still doing lifts, and he's still pretty thin. Granted doing dance lifts is more about momentum and physical strength on the part of both partners (female skaters lift their partners--think the Kerrs) and not so much upper body strength of the male like you need in pairs to hoist a skater up over your head and hold her with one arm.

[RachelSk8er]

The team that cut you lost out then. I know a few Haydenettes, and they don't seem to really make too much fuss over height - the girls I know are all on the small side height-wise, and made the team, no problem.

Saga (current coach) doesn't care as much about height as Lynn Benson did. Back when she was the coach, she wanted 5'6 and a certain look (skaters who were close to 5'6 weren't cut automatically, they just had to put lifts in the heels of their skates). Saga has taken skaters who never would have stood a shot at making the team under Lynn based on their height, appearance, or other factors aside from skating ability. One of the top skaters on that team over the past few years (who a lot of people can't take their eyes off the entire program) is fairly short.

I just hate knowing that a sport can dictate how a skater feels about their appearance. I don't know that there's anything that can be done, except maybe educate skaters on how different things that they can't control like money, height, body type, natural talent etc can affect their skating at different times in their life while removing the judgment.

I was the first of my friends to wear a normal bra and I was a C-cup by the time I was about 15, even though I was pretty thin. I got criticized like mad by my singles coach before I quit freestle, and especially by my synchro teammates and coaches for that (same coach that said I was too short also said my chest was too big--nothing about my skating. Just too short/chest too big...this same coach also told another skater who was taller to have a reduction). Nothing makes an already self-conscious teenager more self-conscious than that. I had major self esteem issues and eating disorders in my late teens/early 20s because of that, even though the rest of society outside the skating world would have considered an athletic-looking girl who was 5'4, a size 6 and a 34C/D to be totally smoki'n hot. I certainly had the hockey boys asking me out left and right and had no shortage of dates in high school/college. (Ha ha I'd kill to be a size 6 again...)

[sk8rdad59]

There are several factors that come into play when looking at a skaters ability to do jumps from a physics standpoint.

1. Height - Taller skaters have a longer axis which affects jumps in the same manner as the height of a top affects it's ability to spin smoothly. A tall top
will tend to wobble more than a short top.

A secondary factor is that taller skaters also tend to have longer arms and require more strength to pull them in than a shorter skater. In addition to this most tall skaters tend to also have gone through more significant growth spurts and must relearn control of their jumps more often than shorter skaters.

Basically tall skaters must be more precise in their technique than a shorter skater as they will have to correct a larger wobble if they are off vertical.

2. Center of gravity - Each skaters center of gravity is different, for males who's center tends to be higher as they mature and develop shoulders a short skater will have a lower overall center of gravity than a taller skater this contributes to the top effect in point 1. A top shaped like a pear will spin more stabily if the wide part is at the bottom rather than the top.

For girls the center of gravity changes as they mature and it's their filling out that tends to affect their jumps more than their height.

3. Mass - skaters who have larger hips, shoulders, bust/chest tend to have more mass that they have to get rotating. This also affects the ability to jump as more energy is required to start rotating in the first place and also to propel the extra mass into the air.

There is nothing that says a skater who isn't the "ideal" build cannot overcome these additional factors it may just take more time and drive than a more "ideally" build skater.

[momof3chicks]

Taller can present much better lines than shorter skaters. Lucinda Ruh was relatively tall and her positions were better than about 99.99999% of skaters out there, even the ones who were winning gold medals. It's not about appearing dainty or elegant... Long, lean lines can do that much better than compact, somewhat muscular bodies (how many 5'4" models do you know?). That's often a general opinion in Gymnastics, but has been proven untrue time and time again.

It's about physics, and the first reply is spot on.

You have more length to pull in when you rotate in the air, you have to be more powerful because you will require more height in jumps (think Victoria Volchkova vs. Tara Lipinski), and any adjustments in spins will affect the spin a lot more on a taller person, and it will take more energy to work over that adjustment because the center of gravity is higher and typically there will be more weight off-balance in the spin.

There have been more than enough tall elite skaters with all their triples, so it shouldn't discourage anyone form skating :P

My 9 yo dd is about 4'11" already, but she is still doing great. She is up to double lutz and just started to learn double axel. Her response to the too tall comment is always "Tell that to Evan Lysacek"

I must say that even though my dds coaches know she will be tallish (it is apparent already), they see alot in her and are trying to work with rather than against it.

[GoSveta]

I have absolutely no clue what a dd is, or what dd means.

[sk8tmum]

I have absolutely no clue what a dd is, or what dd means.

Posting shorthand here and elsewhere:

DD = Dear/darling daughter.
DS = Dear/Darling son.
DH = Dear/Darling Husband.
DW = Dear/Darling Wife.
SO = Significant Other.

AFAIK, that's the standard interpretation. http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30289

[sk8tmum]

[QUOTE=sk8rdad59;418525].

2. Center of gravity - Each skaters center of gravity is different, for males who's center tends to be higher as they mature and develop shoulders A top shaped like a pear will spin more stabily if the wide part is at the bottom rather than the top.

For girls the center of gravity changes as they mature and it's their filling out that tends to affect their jumps more than their height.

Slightly OTT, but, it's interesting to read your posting re: the difference in the male vs. the female physique in terms of jumping: I've heard it from a few coaches, but, not many, and generally, just from coaches, oddly enough, who have coached high-level male skaters. My DS's coach shifts jump technique training methodology when coaching him vs. the way our DD is coached; the explanation being what you note above, and definitely more markedly as puberty hits.

[icestalker]

My coach is constantly telling me to use my long legs (I just measured them, they are 2 feet 9 inches long, from heel to where the inside of my thigh ends. I am 5'7 overall. You know what a huge pain it was to find 9.5 size skates?) When my coach is telling me that all I am thinking about is how she's like four inches shorter than me, as are all the other coaches and all of the skaters in the 13+ range. (I am nearly 14. Since I am maturing 2 years earlier than my mom did, I am hoping that will cut off my height growth. She is 6'.) I shouldn't let it get to me. But I do. Nobody's ever made a comment about it, except the long leg comments. It's reading about 5'3 Olympian champions that depresses me..

In men, height doesn't seem to matter much at all, simply because they have so much more natural strength. I've always thought that hips/bust in women is the biggest deciding factor, because that's what sticks out in jumps and spins. Also consider that 5'3 women can fit into child size skates and dresses and that cuts down the cost of skating, which may be another reason they are more likely to make it to Worlds.

There are so many factors, it is impossible to present a cut-and-dried conclusion. Women this tall have a better chance. Women with this cup size and hip size have a better chance. Women with this length of legs have a better chance. False. No, it just depends so much on a million other factors.

I think leg muscle is another factor in split-spiral impressiveness. Skaters with thick thighs have less pretty spirals. Skaters with twiggy legs have more impressive spirals. (That's what I've noticed, anyway.)

I do have one thing going for me. Small hips and bust. Looking at the bust size of my mother and aunts, none of them have anything significant. I don't know what cup size (A? B? Can't really identify upon appearance.) Of course, with my luck, I'll defy genetics and become a 6'4 34D curvy-hipped skater. I am madly hoping I follow the same path as my mother and stop growing soon after, er, maturing. I have noticed that I have the most trouble doing spins. My spins really look like that of a Basic 7/8 skater, while my footwork quality makes me look higher level, and jumps fall right where they should be. I wobble in spins and am hopeless at staying balanced enough to cross my leg. The spinning top theory makes sense here. I do also have more power and nice leg extension, but if I have the slightest fault in extension or leg straightening it makes me look terribly awkward and out-of-place. In videos, I notice how much I crouch when standing in a group of other skaters, and how I lean away from my coach to avoid seeing the height difference. It's all done subconsciously..

(See how much I obsess over this? I know I shouldn't..)
Who was the tallest female singles skater ever to compete at Worlds or higher? In the last twenty years, not way back when doing a single axel was considered top level.

sorry for that long post!

[sk8tmum]

DD started wearing a sports bra when she discovered her "surprise!" 32C bust that suddenly - emerged - was throwing off spins; the flattening effect was effective and efficient. She does a lot of other training, and as she pointed out, she "straps 'em down" to run to make it more comfortable, why would she do anything else to skate? When not on the ice ... bye-bye- UnderArmour lingerie, hello, Victoria's Secret :lol::lol::lol:

[RachelSk8er]

Also consider that 5'3 women can fit into child size skates and dresses and that cuts down the cost of skating, which may be another reason they are more likely to make it to Worlds.

The savings that come from being able to fit into kids-sized skates and dresses are hardly significant (especially when you're talking an elite skater). Most elite skaters aren't exactly buying off-the-rack dresses from Del Arbour, they have everything made custom (more $$), most of the time their skates are custom (more $$). One of my skating sidekicks can fit into kid's stuff and she can probably confirm that it doesn't save her a whole ton of money.

[Ellyn]

Who was the tallest female singles skater ever to compete at Worlds or higher? In the last twenty years, not way back when doing a single axel was considered top level.

One who comes to mind from longer ago than that but who did have triple salchow and a good double axel at a time when that was average senior lady jump content was Lisa Marie Allen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFhXPcyqKk), who I believe is 5'10"

Other skaters at least 5'7" who have competed at Worlds in the last 20 years include

Alice Sue Claeys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWtEPyYQAc)

Marina Kielmann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTPnN5qix_g)

Lucinda Ruh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Ikxi6Zx4A)

Carolina Kostner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw), who has won a couple of world medals and European titles, is about 5' 6 1/2"

[Stormy]

The savings that come from being able to fit into kids-sized skates and dresses are hardly significant (especially when you're talking an elite skater). Most elite skaters aren't exactly buying off-the-rack dresses from Del Arbour, they have everything made custom (more $$), most of the time their skates are custom (more $$). One of my skating sidekicks can fit into kid's stuff and she can probably confirm that it doesn't save her a whole ton of money.

Confirmed. My skates are size 3 and a half kids, and my new pair that I got in May still cost over 1K and that was with getting a discount on the blades. I don't fit into kids size dresses, I'm a 4-6 in Del Arbour. It saves me nothing on skating costs. I can, however, buy cheaper sneakers. :)

Not all short women can fit into kids sizes, though. One of my students is 11 years old and her skates and shoes are way bigger than mine. I'm 5 feet 2 and a half inches and she's slightly shorter than me.

[RachelSk8er]

One who comes to mind from longer ago than that but who did have triple salchow and a good double axel at a time when that was average senior lady jump content was Lisa Marie Allen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFhXPcyqKk), who I believe is 5'10"

Other skaters at least 5'7" who have competed at Worlds in the last 20 years include

Alice Sue Claeys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERWtEPyYQAc)

Marina Kielmann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTPnN5qix_g)

Lucinda Ruh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_Ikxi6Zx4A)

Carolina Kostner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XX1kxQLMsw), who has won a couple of world medals and European titles, is about 5' 6 1/2"

Piper and Alexe Gilles are 5'7. You don't notice Piper's size as much since she's a dancer with a tall (6'2) partner, but Alexe's height is certainly obvious when she's skating (on TV or in person, TV commentators always point it out). She's not one of those tall/lanky types either, she's built like an athlete. But she's had success on the national scene recently, at least in Junior.

Joannie Rochette doesn't exactly fit the norm either. She's only 5'2 but that girl is BUILT and therefore weighs more than skaters her height with less muscle mass. (Obviously she's strong so launching that extra size into the air is no big deal.)

[sk8tmum]

Cynthia Phaneuf. A good example of a small girl who struggled when she grew. She's shown now as 170 cm (which is around 5'7") - definitely athletic in build.

But, to me, 5'7" is still on the small side; I think of tall as starting around 5'9" and up for girls, 6'0" or so and up for guys, just because I'm looking at the percentile rankings in growth charts.

[icestalker]

But, to me, 5'7" is still on the small side; I think of tall as starting around 5'9" and up for girls, 6'0" or so and up for guys, just because I'm looking at the percentile rankings in growth charts.

Where do you live? It's very rare for me to meet a woman that is taller than me (I'm 5'7). In fact, a lot of people comment on how tall I am. The average for American women is 5'4, as somebody already said on here.
The average for figure skaters at my rink seems to be 5'1-5'4. I think the tallest female coach here is 5'6, maybe?? She appears tall but I think she is shorter than me still.
Today I saw a skater who had to be 5'10 or taller. So there is somebody in the rink who is both female and taller than me. Astounding.

If there were women my height at Worlds, then I still have a chance at being something resembling a good skater :lol: And if a 5'10 skater had a triple salchow, an even better chance for me to perhaps land a double something some day.

True, Olympians would have custom everything. At a lower level it would probably save a few bucks now and then, though.

Did the 32C's affect her jumps, or only her spins?

[sk8tmum]

Where do you live? It's very rare for me to meet a woman that is taller than me (I'm 5'7). In fact, a lot of people comment on how tall I am. The average for American women is 5'4, as somebody already said on here.

Did the 32C's affect her jumps, or only her spins?

Toronto, Canada.

At 5'7", I am pretty much average among my group; my daughter stands out at 5'9". However, as always, the danger of assuming one's own experience as being representative of norms is apparent; growth charts show 5'6" for females as being the 74th percentile and 5'7" as being the 85th percentile, which shows how rapidly the percentiles increase with each incremental increase in height. I wouldn't find 5'7" tall,in my own circle of people, nor in the school of 2,000+ students in which I teach, excepting, perhaps among my Grade 9's - certainly not among my Grade 10 or 11's - perhaps it is representative of your age rather than your absolute height that people find your height surprising - ? Also, depending on where you live, there are different "average" heights: for example, a town in Manitoba has one of the largest Icelandic populations outside of Iceland, and the height there is unusually tall IIRC from living nearby.

My DD, by comparison, is definitely tall at 5'9" at 16 (97th percentile). Which leads to an extrapolation regarding tall skaters: if 97% of woman are under 5'9", then, statistically, it would be abnormal for more than 3 out of every 100 skaters to be of that height; thus, perhaps it is not entirely self-selection but rather representative of the population itself? (Note: I'm not sure which variant of the paediatric growth chart I'm using; it's one sourced through Sick Kids hospital in Toronto).

The 32C's? I would say the 36" inseam is the bigger issue, and a severely damaged right ankle. :D The bust, not a problem since she began skating in underarmour sports bra with tight lululemon athletic tank over top - the same as what she runs in. However, other maturing young ladies who do not wear supportive undergarments do express displeasure over comfort and balance. :roll: The bigger problem is finding dresses and skating pants (or tights) that fit.

[sk8tmum]

[QUOTE=icestalker;418621True, Olympians would have custom everything. At a lower level it would probably save a few bucks now and then, though.[/QUOTE]

Nope. The size 1 Riedells cost the same as the size 10 Riedells; the 5" Gold Seals cost the same as the 10-1/2". If you can even GET the size 1 Riedells - it's often hard to find tiny sizes in advanced skates (sigh). Same with dresses ... it's not the material it's the labour in making them ... sigh.

(Parent of a 20th percentile daughter with child's size 12 feet at age 8, and a 97th percentile daughter with size 9-1/2 feet.)

[Schmeck]

(Parent of a 20th percentile daughter with child's size 12 feet at age 8, and a 97th percentile daughter with size 9-1/2 feet.)

And I've got a 5'3" daughter and a 5'8" daughter (who is 19 and had a tiny growth spurt this year, odd!) who have the same size 7 feet! Isn't it odd how foot size and height can be so unconnected?

I agree that puberty seems to do the women in as much, if not more, as a spurt in height - hips and boobs take some effort to get around, as well as setting off center of balance. Hormones can play havoc on joints too - how many female skaters have pounded their bodies and had to quit in their mid to late teens (prime puberty zone)?

[blue111moon]

It's not the existence of hips and boobs that do women in (in comparison with men); it's that fact that the hips and boobs give women aa higher body fat-to-muscle ratio. Less muscle makes it harder to develop power. More height added on requires more muscle to move.

There are exceptions. A tall slim female with slim hips and a small bust might find it easier to jump and spin than a short woman with wide hips and large boobs. There's usually a pretty wide range of body types in the Senior Ladies event at Nationals, even if the ones who make the final group tend to be pretty similar.

[RachelSk8er]

It's not the existence of hips and boobs that do women in (in comparison with men); it's that fact that the hips and boobs give women aa higher body fat-to-muscle ratio. Less muscle makes it harder to develop power. More height added on requires more muscle to move.


Having hips/boobs doesn't mean that someone doesn't have as much muscle mass and power, though. Someone can have a body that carries a ton of muscle mass and a lot of physical strength, but still have hips and a chest on top of that. (Especially hips, they aren't always due to body fat, that also comes from bone structure.) A lot of that is based on genetics. I have a body that carries a lot of muscle mass for a female my height. I have the same muscle mass now at 29 years old as I did at 22 years old, even though I'm 30 pounds heavier (I know because I just had my body composition tested, since I'm trying to lose those 30 pounds) and I'm actually phsyically stronger now than I was then. And sheer muscle mass doesn't always mean someone is strong. One of the strongest females I know (a girl from my roller derby league) is this skinny little tiny thing with chicken legs. There is another lady I work with who is very skinny but everyone watches her in awe when she pounds the weights in our company gym, she's lifting almost as much as some of the guys.

Look at Katerina Witt. I've always thought she had the perfect figure (and obviously so did Playboy). I realize she was a lot leaner at the height of her competitive career than when she turned pro, but she was still able to jump after she put on (good) weight. I idolized her when I was a kid because she didn't fit the itty bitty skater mold and actually looked like a healthy, beautiful woman.

[GoSveta]

A good example of someone who maintained very good physical conditioning over a long period of time is Denise Biellman. She could still do most of the jumps that she did when she won Worlds 20 years later, and still do every spin.

That woman was a freak of nature (in a good way).

Training extremely hard at a young age in elite sports does have a way of somewhat "delaying" puberty. That's why lots of gymnasts and some skaters balloon after they retire. They look prepubescent, and the year after they retire they look like full-grown women.

People should work with what they have, though. Don't like the idea of women or men trying to artificially mold their body into something it is not. Not a good idea, and not safe physically or psychologically.

Back in 84 Witt was as "itty bitty" skater as one could get, with a fierce competitive spirit :P However, there have always been a myriad of different types of skaters in elite competitions even before then. I think the marginalized skater "types" have only become more apparent in more recent times, especially with the new judging system and emphasis on gaining points by doing elements that some types of skaters just aren't physically good (or even capable) of doing.

Rachel Flatt is an excellent skater, but Biellmans and Pearls aren't her thing - for example.

[Skittl1321]

Nope. The size 1 Riedells cost the same as the size 10 Riedells; the 5" Gold Seals cost the same as the 10-1/2". If you can even GET the size 1 Riedells - it's often hard to find tiny sizes in advanced skates (sigh). Same with dresses ... it's not the material it's the labour in making them ... sigh.



My skates were about $50 cheaper because I got "kids" instead of "women's" (Jackson Competitors) I wear a size 3 boot. (Looking at rainbo it appears to be only a $10 difference now, but the Elite has a $50 difference.. but the Reidel 1500HLS has a $100+ gap between girls and womens. That's a big difference.)


The biggest savings though is I have a constant stream of elementary schoolers growing out of their skates. My current pair cost me $50, with Gold Seals- they were scratched up like crazy from a skater learning a backspin, but while the blade was somewhat worn down, the boot was not at all.

[icestalker]

My skates were about $50 cheaper because I got "kids" instead of "women's" (Jackson Competitors) I wear a size 3 boot. (Looking at rainbo it appears to be only a $10 difference now, but the Elite has a $50 difference.. but the Reidel 1500HLS has a $100+ gap between girls and womens. That's a big difference.)

That's what I meant. Kid's or girl's, not smaller sizes in women's. When I said child size.. I literally meant child size.

I think the marginalized skater "types" have only become more apparent in more recent times, especially with the new judging system and emphasis on gaining points by doing elements that some types of skaters just aren't physically good (or even capable) of doing.

Rachel Flatt is an excellent skater, but Biellmans and Pearls aren't her thing - for example.

So very true- not everyone is capable of Biellmanns, outside spread eagles, contortionist spins (like Kayla's Catch). So those people who were gifted with that flexibility get the points. Makes no sense.

Do smaller people have more natural flexibility?

[GoSveta]

No, smaller does not = more flexible.

There are a lot of factors that determine flexibility. Probably be best to make another thread if we want to have that discussion, though XD

[isakswings]

My skates were about $50 cheaper because I got "kids" instead of "women's" (Jackson Competitors) I wear a size 3 boot.

Wow!! How would that be? lol! mY 12 y/o is in a 5 and so are many of the skaters she skates with who are 11! She is in a Competitor boot right now too.

[GoSveta]

Do those "kid" boots have the same level of ankle support as the "adult" boots, though?

[sk8tmum]

Do those "kid" boots have the same level of ankle support as the "adult" boots, though?

Looking at the child size 13 Riedell vs the adult size 9 Riedell: yes. Same boot, just a different size. NO indication on websites that the boot differs child to adult; sometimes a missing flex notch, IIRC, on one of the Jacksons way back in the day, but, that was it.

[GoSveta]

Thanks for the info (I was genuinely interested) :P

[Query]

There are physics issues here, even for short and tall people of the same proportions and composition. I may have made some mistakes and incorrect guesses here, but I will try my best to get it right.

As I see it, the height, and the center of gravity with it, all other things being equal, doesn't affect balance, because the body configurations you need to do to stay in balance are exactly the same, unless I just made a mistake. Hence balance is the same. (I ignoring the body mass distribution issues that occur with build and development age.)

But if you fall, the tall person doesn't have as high a strength/weight ratio in structural strength terms (see below). So the tall person needs more fall practice. :bow:

However, the tall person has more time to compensate for loss of balance, because the time required to fall to the ice is inversely proportional to the square root of the skater's height. The twice as tall person has sqrt(2)=1.414 times as much time to compensate for imbalance. Don't over-emphasize this - because some of reaction time is nerve conduction time, which is proportional to height.

Both structure strength, and muscle strength, are approximately proportional to cross section area, and therefore to the square of the height. (I am assuming maximum muscle strength is not limited by the number of muscle fibers, but by the strength a person can safely apply without pulling their muscle apart, determined largely by the cross sectional area of the connective tissue in the muscles.

But weight is approximately proportional to volume, and therefore to the cube of the height.

So maximum attainable strength/weight ratios are smaller for tall people. All other things being equal, a twice as tall person would have half the structural and muscle strength/weight ratio.

In reality, strength training can to some extant compensate for weight, by increasing bone density, number of muscle fibers used, and the amount of connective tissue. But the taller, heavier person needs much more strength training to achieve it, and will end up with a stockier build too. Besides, a short person, with comparable strength training, should be able to do the same things. So for the moment assume strength indeed only scales with the square of height, so strength/weight scales inversely with height.

A tall person presumably has a greater distance over which muscle can contract, which I assume to be proportional to muscle length. Since energy available from the muscle scales with strength*(distance over which muscle strength is applied), it scales with the cube of your height. But your weight times your height over the ice is also proportional to energy. So the distance over the ice you can jump is independent of your height.
And your time in the air is also independent of your height.

Now consider spins (on the ice or in the air). Your angular moment of inertia scales with your weight times your horizontal size, which scales with the 4th power of your height. Spin energy is proportional to your moment of inertia times the square of your rate of spin. The energy available is again proportional to the cube of your height. So your rate of spin is proportional to your height to the -3/2 power. The twice as tall person spins at 2 to the (-3/2)=0.3535 times the rate of spin.

So, in the air, you spin a number of rotations proportional to the skater's height to the -3/2 power too. The twice as tall person gets 0.3535 times as many rotations.

All in all, the short person has many advantages, at least for freestyle type moves.

I'm short. For many years I trained about 20 hours/week. I should be an incredibly good skater. Sigh. This suggests that factors like natural talent, the age at which you start training, and how wisely you train, can all be very important too.

[Skittl1321]

Do those "kid" boots have the same level of ankle support as the "adult" boots, though?

They sure seem to. I'm in Jackson Competitors and they support slightly-overweight me just fine.

Buying "adult" boots isn't an option for me. No one makes them small enough without calling them "kids"

[Query]

P.S. Something is wrong with my calculations. Tall people don't get so much fewer rotations in the air. So, tall people must be relatively more fit.

Does that mean just living and moving around functions as strength training?

Should short people dress in fat suits most of the time to get equally fit?

How would that appeal to a typical svelte female figure skater? 8-)

[Skittl1321]

Does that mean just living and moving around functions as strength training?


To some extent- yep. Think about basal (I think that's the word) calorie requirements. Large men require many more calories than small women. Just the act of keeping their involuntary organ functions (heart, lungs, brain) going takes more calories than a much smaller person.

Wow!! How would that be? lol! mY 12 y/o is in a 5 and so are many of the skaters she skates with who are 11! She is in a Competitor boot right now too.
___________
Yeah- I got tiny feet (size 5 womens, 4 kids from Lands End- but 3 in Jacksons). I bought them used off an elementary schooler. When she grew out of her next pair- a size 3.5, her Mom offered me those too. I laughed- my feet aren't growing. I don't need bigger boots! I know where my next pair of boots are coming from. I'm just waiting for that kid to outgrow them now :)

[Query]

Too bad custom skates from Klingbeil, the factory/store closest to me, aren't priced the same way!

I wear boys or men's size 6 shoes, if they have wide enough toes. The ones packaged for boys are much cheaper. Likewise for some types of clothing. At my size, stores don't order much, and big boys, small men and many ladies all compete for what is ordered, so I have to visit many stores to find stuff that fits.

A very petite lady of my acquaintance resents not finding adult styles in her size, and is quite sensitive about the issue.

[Mainemom]

One inch over average is not tall, though.


If I seen a 5'9" woman on the ice, then yea I'd be surprised (well... I've seen some tall'ish ice dancers... just not freestylers).



DD is 5'9" and has always struggled with her height but it does, IMHO, give her the most beautiful line for dancing, as others have said; also everything she does do looks bigger and flashier because there is more of her to see. There is a very small Asian girl at our home rink, not even 5", and her jumps look tiny and are over in a flash because she only needs to get inches off the ice in order to rotate them. DD's flying camel, in particular, and things like footwork sequences and split jumps, just look more impressive when you're that tall (again, IMHO) because there is more there.

[GoSveta]

I've already agreed to that.

Furthermore, you don't need to be that tall to give the look of long lines. A short skater who is properly stretched with long muscles and lean limbs does just fine. Alissa Czisny has/had no problems giving that look, and she's only 5'4". That has as much to do with form and proper posture/positioning than height.

[icestalker]

Makes me want to have somebody film me while I practice ice dance, to see if I look more graceful than I do jumping and spinning.

Since taller people have more weight to carry, and that weight being situated farther away from their core, wouldn't that in itself make them stronger? Having to carry extra weight on three foot long legs up stairs and around town? It would be the effect of putting ankle and vest weights on a short person 24/7..?
(Or am I just rambling thoughtlessly and spewing out untrue theories?)

[RachelSk8er]

Makes me want to have somebody film me while I practice ice dance, to see if I look more graceful than I do jumping and spinning.

Since taller people have more weight to carry, and that weight being situated farther away from their core, wouldn't that in itself make them stronger? Having to carry extra weight on three foot long legs up stairs and around town? It would be the effect of putting ankle and vest weights on a short person 24/7..?
(Or am I just rambling thoughtlessly and spewing out untrue theories?)

Sort of.

Something like bicep curls for example--if you have 2 people, one with shorter limbs and one with longer limbs, and the most weight both of them can do with that exercise is 20 pounds, it takes less strength/energy for the person with shorter limbs to do it than it does for the person with longer limbs because they have less distance to move the weight. So that person with longer limbs is probably, in reality, a little stronger than the shorter person.

[kayskate]

Furthermore, you don't need to be that tall to give the look of long lines. A short skater who is properly stretched with long muscles and lean limbs does just fine. Alissa Czisny has/had no problems giving that look, and she's only 5'4". That has as much to do with form and proper posture/positioning than height.

It is sometimes surprising to find out how short a skater really is. When a person is out on the ice alone, there is nothing to give her/him relative size. A 5'4" skater can look really tall depending on body proportions. If the person has a narrow bone structure (rib cage, hips), long limbs, and lean muscles; she will look tall. However, if a skater the same height is stockier (shorter limbs, bigger skeletal structure, bulkier muscles), she will look shorter and heavier. In this case, the stockier skater is probably heavier. Even so, if the hypothetical stocky skater were to stand nx to me, she would look like a peanut. it's all relative.

Kay

[cazzie]

kayskate - you're absolutely right about that. I get fed up with so many people thinking my daughter (4'11" age 11 and after recent massive growth spurt) is a giant. Truth is - she is very, very leggy (also long arms) and has a tiny bone structure. When standing next to one of the "short" skaters it can come as a shock that there isn't a massive height difference - but- short more muscular legs, wider bone structure etc. can make somebody look much shorter than they really are.

Having said that - a 3 1/2 inch growth spurt (since Christmas) hasn't done wonders for her jumps - although spins seem a lot less affected. What has been noticed though is sometimes she has what looks like good technique and something which looks like it should be landed but is followed by a collapse onto the ice. Coaches reckon not always the leg strength to hold onto the landings - so maybe shorter more muscular legs would be desirable!

[sk8tmum]

It is sometimes surprising to find out how short a skater really is. When a person is out on the ice alone, there is nothing to give her/him relative size.Kay

ITA. My DD had the joy of skating on a session with a number of other tall-ish skaters (5'6" and up) - and didn't look "tall" at all, whereas, on the typical session where she is surrounded by 4'10 to 5"2 - she looks very tall.

Of course, all skaters look small to me when they take their skates off and suddenly shrink 3"!!!!!

[doubletoe]

My DD, by comparison, is definitely tall at 5'9" at 16 (97th percentile). Which leads to an extrapolation regarding tall skaters: if 97% of woman are under 5'9", then, statistically, it would be abnormal for more than 3 out of every 100 skaters to be of that height; thus, perhaps it is not entirely self-selection but rather representative of the population itself?

I think that's a really good point. And, as someone else pointed out before, the average U.S. ladies' champion is 5'3", which I don't consider that much of a variation from the average height of U.S. women (5'4"). In fact, since most U.S. ladies' champions are teenagers who reached puberty late due to their intense athletic activity, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them grew another inch after winning the championship (I know Mirai Nagasu has). If you look at the average height of female Harvard graduates, you will probably find that it's somewhere around 5'4" also, but that certainly shouldn't discourage girls who are 5'7"!


However, the tall person has more time to compensate for loss of balance, because the time required to fall to the ice is inversely proportional to the square root of the skater's height. The twice as tall person has sqrt(2)=1.414 times as much time to compensate for imbalance.

Huh?? Are you saying a tall skater has an advantage on falls because there is "more time to compensate for loss of balance"? You said a skater's height has no effect on the height of his/her jumps (I'm assuming you mean as measured by the distance between the ice and the skater's feet at the height of the jump). I agree with that, and so would Midori Ito and Evan Lysacek. So that means a tall skater and a short skater are the same distance off the ice during a jump. A fall occurs when a skater loses her balance in the air OR on the landing, becomes misaligned and is unable to keep her feet under her. If the tall and short skaters' feet are the same distance from the ice, how does a tall skater have longer to right herself and catch her balance? If you suffer a bad loss of balance, or you are tilted on a jump landing, or you catch your blade in the ice, you are going to fall unless you have a extremely quick reaction time and sense of balance. Height offers no advantage there.

[sk8rdad59]

There are physics issues here, even for short and tall people of the same proportions and composition. I may have made some mistakes and incorrect guesses here, but I will try my best to get it right.

As I see it, the height, and the center of gravity with it, all other things being equal, doesn't affect balance, because the body configurations you need to do to stay in balance are exactly the same, unless I just made a mistake. Hence balance is the same. (I ignoring the body mass distribution issues that occur with build and development age.)



You first assumption is flawed. Given two similar objects with the same basic shape but one taller than the other the center of gravity is higher in the taller object. Take to pencils one 2/3 the length of the other find the balance point which should basically be around the center and it becomes obvious that the center of mass is lower in the shorter pencil if they were both placed on end on a flat surface.

Applying this to two skaters with the same basic build if the center of gravity for both skaters is somewhere around their midsection the smaller skaters center of gravitiy will be lower as their mid section is lower to the ground.

Therefore balance is not the same, advantage short skater.

[isakswings]

Yeah- I got tiny feet (size 5 womens, 4 kids from Lands End- but 3 in Jacksons). I bought them used off an elementary schooler. When she grew out of her next pair- a size 3.5, her Mom offered me those too. I laughed- my feet aren't growing. I don't need bigger boots! I know where my next pair of boots are coming from. I'm just waiting for that kid to outgrow them now :)

That's funny about the mom! I am a short person(5 ft 1) and my feet are a size 7.5-8! My mom is a taller woman(5 ft 7) and until she broke her foot, she could fit into a size 6.5-7. Now she wears a 7-7.5. My daughter likely will not be a tall woman. She is 12 now and is around 4 ft 10 and wears a size 5 skate and can wear a 4.5-5 in kids shoes and about a size 6-6.5 in womens(depends on the shoe). Funny thing about dd tho. People see her on the ice and THINK she is tall for her age, but she isn't! She is short and tiny(weighs maybe 75 pounds)! She has LONG legs, so when people see her skate, they assume she is tall! She'll be lucky to be 5 ft 4! Funny, huh?

[Query]

the smaller skaters center of gravitiy will be lower as their mid section is lower to the ground.

Therefore balance is not the same, advantage short skater.

I agree that the center of gravity is lower - but it scales with your height. So unless my thought process is flawed, this means that most of the differences in balance that come from internal forces and gravity are very small. Specifically:

Balance is essentially the same in that the conditions for both static and dynamic balance are not altered, in terms of the static and dynamic poses and horizontal motions that leave you in balance. I.e., you are in balance if your center of gravity is over your base of support, taking into account inertial forces for dynamic balance.

There is a very slight change because inertial forces do not act quite the same way as gravitational forces. That difference on the order of the difference between the center of mass and the center of gravity - insignificant for human sized skaters. It matters when skyscraper sized skaters like King Kong skate, because gravity is less powerful at the head.

It is true that vertical inertial forces do not entirely scale with height, because of the interaction with gravity and centrifugal force from the spin of the earth. This affects dynamic but not static balance somewhat. For example, if a tall and short person drop at free fall rates, the fall rates are not the same in that they do not scale with your height.

Hence, what happens if you go out of balance does differ, in that the motions you go through as a result of imbalance are slower, in relation to the size of the person, for the taller person. The advantage is to tall folk, because they have more time to react.

Horizontal Coriolis forces differ too, but I doubt that is particularly significant. After all, we don't commonly worry about compensating for the difference between skating from low to high latitude vs high to low latitude, or between skating in the direction of the earth's spin vs against it.

Air resistance forces are somewhat different, and do not scale with the weight of the skater. That mostly matters at high speeds. The shorter person gets proportionately more wind force. (That is part of why bumblebees need not be shaped like eagles.)

If the tall folk are adults, and the short folk are kids, the kids have many advantages, because their center of gravity is on average lower, relative to their height, and their reaction times are shorter - but I started with the assumption that shape and composition were the same.

Skaters are not buildings. I.e., we are not anchored to the ice. Nor, except for the aforementioned air resistance at high speeds, do we need to worry about wind sheer or earthquakes. Buildings are much more stable when they are low, because of these external forces.

I'm not that sure about the horizontal forces from the ice. That is an external force too - and I'm not sure it is proportional to your weight.

But overall, balance is still pretty much the same.

[GoSveta]

No. Balance isn't pretty much the same.

[phoenix]

But overall, balance is still pretty much the same.

I disagree with this. I am 6' tall. When I tilt my shoulder 1 inch out of line, the resulting error is worse (and therefore harder to compensate for or fix) than if a 5' tall girl was 1 inch out of line--if you drew a vertical line straight up from the blade (contact point w/ the ice), my shoulder will be farther out of line than the shorter person's. I'm no physicist (obviously) & I'm not saying it quite right, but the point is that even my small errors are bigger than the exact same error on a shorter person.

[GoSveta]

I disagree with this. I am 6' tall. When I tilt my shoulder 1 inch out of line, the resulting error is worse (and therefore harder to compensate for or fix) than if a 5' tall girl was 1 inch out of line--if you drew a vertical line straight up from the blade (contact point w/ the ice), my shoulder will be farther out of line than the shorter person's. I'm no physicist (obviously) & I'm not saying it quiet right, but the point is that even my small errors are bigger than the exact same error on a shorter person.

Exactly what I said earlier in the thread, in my Ruh/Cohen example, so I have to agree with Phoenix.

[sk8rdad59]

Phoenix is correct, the issue isn't when you are in balance it is when you get out of balance and have to correct ie. your stability. For a taller skater the same degree of error off axis is much harder to correct that for a shorter skater. My DS who is about 6'1" has to work much harder that his 4'10" partner to correct an off axis jump or spin.

Also the energy required to put a object out of balance is lower for a taller object assuming everything else is equal as the center of gravity is higher in the taller object. Also the amount of energy required to put the out of balance object back into equalibrium is higher for the object with the higher center of gravity.

[Query]

It's impossible to really compare how "hard" it feels for two people to correct imbalance, because, outside video games, which don't model things very well, they can't exchange bodies - and if they could, they wouldn't be used to the new ones.

Your DS probably has to work harder than his partner because he is a guy, and his center of gravity is probably proportionately higher, relative to his height - though because we can't exchange bodies, it is hard to tell. Being a guy also gives him, on average, more muscle power to do stuff with, and less flexibility to move gracefully (e.g., a women's hip allows her to regain balance in ways that are much more difficult for men). If more energy is available, and less flexibility, it is natural that he would learn use the strength more. I believe that is part of why women usually look more graceful, and men usually use their strength more. Men and women are designed better to move the ways they tend to move. Plus, women learn that looking graceful is feminine, and men learn that looking strong is masculine, so most men/women want to move those ways, and are to some extant judged accordingly.

YES it takes more energy to regain balance for the taller skater - proportionate to his/her mass, which is to say proportionate to his/her height to the 3rd power. But he/she also has the same factor more energy available from his/her muscles, all other things being equal and given equal conditioning.

It doesn't take less energy to place a tall skater out of balance. If both skaters start with their centers of gravity centered over their bases of support, than to move the center of gravity beyond that base requires overcoming inertia and perhaps potential energy (depending on the movement) - which are proportionate to his/her mass, and therefore takes more energy for the taller skater.

Suppose two skaters are 1 inch out (at the top) of balance in some direction. Each skater might temporally regain that balance, for example, by thrusting their bent arms in that direction by the same number of inches at the same acceleration. The taller skater requires more energy to do that - by a factor proportionate to their weight ratio. And he/she has that same factor more energy available from his/her muscles. And in fact, he/she can thrust those arms a longer distance in that direction, and regain more inches of balance.

Balance compensations are of course more complex than that, because as soon as an arm thrust stops, the rest of our bodies re-absorb the momentum the arm thrust temporally absorbed. I think we use a sequence of many small motions (e.g., bent arm/leg thrust, extended arm/leg swing, hip thrust/swing, knee bend, angle bend, etc.) and muscle tensions to delay the fall that an imbalance would produce, and then we take a step (establishing a new base of support) or use a complex multi-axis internal body motion to place ourselves back in balance (the same way a cat or diver can swing down and twirl his/her upper body to flip mid-air, a type of zero net angular momentum spin).

In all of these motions, each skater needs an amount of energy that is proportionate to his/her mass. And his/her muscles can supply an amount of energy proportionate to his/her mass. It balances out.

I think the claim that short people have all the advantages in balance is just an excuse tall people use. Short people have other advantages, as noted, but, given equal practice, training and conditioning, tall people can do the same things, relative to balance.

Taller people are often afraid to do things involving delicate balance, because they have to absorb a harder fall. And people keep telling them it is harder for them to balance. So they get less practice compensating for imbalance. I claim that is the reason shorter people have better balance, on average.

I used to have very poor balance, in spite of being short, and I compensated for imbalance in ways that would hurt myself. But fall practice, and the concentration on relaxing and creating faster reactions that entailed, together with the discovery that there are many low energy safe ways to regain balance, and practicing those, has helped a lot. Tall people can do that too. Strength and flexibility limitations have proved much more difficult for me to overcome, and are now a bigger issue.

[Query]

I made a major miscalculation, and have to correct myself.

When you move into or through a position of balance, there are two factors involving strength. First, you have to lift your weight, which is indeed roughly proportional to your muscle strength, given equal conditioning. But to move to the same pose in about the same time, you have to move faster if you are taller, which requires still more muscle strength.

In addition, a lot of balance poses, like spirals, shoot-the-duck and sit-spins, are also strength and flexibility poses. (And flexibility requires strength for some).

So, short people should indeed have a big advantage in balance.

Of course it gets a lot more complicated in pairs and dance, where a lot of balance poses require one person to support all or part of another's weight, or lean into or away from them. Your ideal height and weight in a given pose or move will depend on your partner's height and weight.

Maybe math isn't the right approach to these questions.

[Sessy]

I think the greatest disadvantage to tall skaters yet is that people who are tall also tend to be slender built with longer, but narrower muscles... Have you ever observed that? I have, with drawing of people. It's like they have the same muscles shorter people do only stretched out over longer bones.