Correct edge for the backspin

[jjane45]

Dear All,

I've been working on the counterclockwise backspin from pivot and usually end up spinning on the heel instead of the ball. Read the twizzled backspin thread carefully and practiced deep back outside edge with free leg in front or on the side touching the skating leg, that gets on the ball. But when spinning, revolutions come only on the heel, ball is almost nonexistent. (I **think** it is the outside edge, though...)

So far my instructors have suggested the following:
- upper body straight, tuck in hips
- one full pivot then tuck in the free leg to skating leg
- put weight on the right side, bend the skating knee during pivot then rise up
- one instructor says put arms on the side in neutral position while another prefers arms in front, pressing down (both still ends up on the heels)

I am told that I also travel away from the pivot before getting into the spin. Instructor says press down on the ball but I don't know how to apply that pressure. I feel my backspin floats on the ice in an unstable way, while for regular one foot spin there is pressure on the ball.

Besides pressing down, I am guessing it also had to do with center of gravity (weight distribution) because I sometimes have to put toe pick behind myself to balance in a spin-out. Is slight forward lean necessary?

Your insights are greatly, greatly appreciated! :bow::bow::bow:

[dbny]

If your weight is on your heel then you are on a F Inside edge. There are many ways to teach the backspin, and there is no single one that works for everyone. IMO, the most important thing is to never allow yourself to spin on the wrong edge. You will simply make spinning on the correct edge more difficult every time you do it wrong. If you feel your weight is on the ball of the foot, and you feel it shift back, bail!

This is my favorite method of teaching the backspin. I posted it a few years ago, but can't remember right now how to reference that post, so I've just copied it here:

First, you have to be aware that the direction you are going to move in is backwards, not forwards, so don't start from anything moving forwards. Second, you must have your weight over the skating hip (big surprise), and anything that pulls your weight out and away is going to pull you onto the FI edge (notice that in elite competition, when they change edge from the BO, the free foot uncrosses and is usually out away from the skating foot). Assuming a CCW spin, stand on two feet with your R foot slightly pigeon toed. Push off with the L foot into what is almost a B pivot on the R foot. As you push, bring the L foot over the right into the crossed position. Keep the L foot parallel to the R foot so as to keep the hips closed. The L arm is in front, with the R arm to the side. As you push off, bring the arms in, hands meeting in front, elbows down. If you feel your weight start to shift to the FI edge, jump out of the spin (from your toe), onto your toe as if you were landing a loop.

The thing that impressed me the most is that there is never any FI edge happening. I think that if you've already got that problem it's going to be very, very difficult to beat, especially if you can't feel the difference.
I've been doing this method and several others also. I have never flipped to the FI edge without knowing it and aborting the spin, and even that rarely. If you can hold a very strong and deep BO edge, practice it several times between spin attempts. Go slowly into it, cross your free leg, and hold your arms in spin position with L shoulder slightly forward. Really good backspinners can snap into the spin from the BO edge entry.

[icestalker]

Since you read my twizzle thread, you know to check your blades periodically and make sure they aren't loose, right? :lol::lol:

I'm no coach, but one thing that helped me was doing backward shoot-the-ducks. Going backwards on a RBO edge and lowering self into a shoot-the-duck, you can't be on your heel, because then you'll just fall on your butt. So that should help you press down on the ball of your foot. Remember to press down on your little toe in the spin to ensure your weight is up there.

No- no forward lean! Straight up and down. Tight core.

What dbny said about bailing when you flip to the FI edge is very very important. I throw myself out of the spin when I feel that 3turn flip me.

Have you tried it from a FI 3turn entrance? Because I cannot do a backspin from a pivot to save my life, FI entrance is much easier for me.

[Sessy]

If your weight is on your heel then you are on a F Inside edge.

I don't even know how people manage that. From the first times I tried my weight was on the outside edge to the point where I kept loosing my footing... It's like my weight ends up too far to the right (ccw here), even righter than my right hip. Or my right foot is too far to the left, I don't know. The edge just gets so steep I can't hold it. Any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong? I don't seem to do it anymore on the backspin at all but ask me for a change-foot and I immediately do it again, and with the landing leg problems I'm even too scared to hurt myself to try change-foots anymore - but they're on the test, the backspins aren't. :evil: Any help appreciated (not that I"ll get a chance to try this until august, but believe me I'll remember.) I'm certain it's not the blades, I don't have problems with any edge things on the right foot at all.

[doubletoe]

If you are on your heel, then your weight must be too far back. Your rear end should be tucked under you, but your torso should not be leaned back. Your chest should be over the toe of your spinning foot (this will also require knee and ankle bend). As you go into the spin from the pivot, never let your bottom pick lose contact with the ice. Transition into the spin keeping your weight right between the bottom pick and the front part of the ball of the blade, just behind the bottom pick. Your bottom pick should actually scraping in the ice during your spin.

[jjane45]

Thank you everyone for your great suggestions, will specifically try the following the next practice session:
- more knee / ankle bend and tuck in hips
- press down on the pinky toe and see if I could feel the outside edge
- try 3 turn entry
- do a few deep BO edge / backward shoot-the-duck before spinning
I am working toward ISI's change-foot-spin and instructor mentioned at this level a forward inside edge can get away. The real backspin is not required until 2 levels up. But as dbny and icestalker mentioned, guess FI spin on the right foot may become an obstacle later on and it's better to get it right now.
As you push, bring the L foot over the right into the crossed position. Keep the L foot parallel to the R foot so as to keep the hips closed. The L arm is in front, with the R arm to the side.
Thank you so much for the detailed instructions. Just making sure, is this crossed position for left foot similar to scratch spin position?
As you go into the spin from the pivot, never let your bottom pick lose contact with the ice. Transition into the spin keeping your weight right between the bottom pick and the front part of the ball of the blade, just behind the bottom pick. Your bottom pick should actually scraping in the ice during your spin.
I admit that I am unable to maintain that contact. The toe pick skids/travels right before spinning even in the pivot for basic one-foot spin. Maybe it's because my legs are still too far apart at the end of pivoting or weight was not at the right place...
Again, thank you everyone!!!!! :bow::bow::bow:

[doubletoe]

I admit that I am unable to maintain that contact. The toe pick skids/travels right before spinning even in the pivot for basic one-foot spin. Maybe it's because my legs are still too far apart at the end of pivoting or weight was not at the right place...

Oh yeah, I've been there, LOL! Make sure (1) your knee and ankle of the pivoting leg are bent, (2) your feet are just hip-width apart, (2) your right ear is over your right shoulder (i.e., weight/axis over right side), (3) your shoulders are level, and (4) your torso stays one solid unit the whole time (i.e., no twisting whatsoever).

[jjane45]

My instructor was on the same ice when I practiced and said it looked better but I think it's still really off. Will keep practicing, and thank you Doubletoe for the new tips!
Crossing the free leg in front of skating leg in the scratch position was scary!! Should I even attempt it without having a forward scratch spin?
THANK YOU PEOPLE, YOU ARE GREAT!

[dbny]

Crossing the free leg in front of skating leg in the scratch position was scary!! Should I even attempt it without having a forward scratch spin?
THANK YOU PEOPLE, YOU ARE GREAT!

Yes! It's actually helpful, because if you lean too far to the BO edge and fall in that direction, your free foot can be put down on that side to save you.

[jjane45]

OK it has been confusing as confusing could be :) I've been practicing the deep RBO edges with 1) left hip open, thigh parallel to ice, and knee bend and 2) left foot crossed in front of right foot. Used to be difficult with straightened skating leg, but getting slightly steadier.

But an instructor argued against practicing these saying it's totally different from spining on a small circle. :confused: Another instructor still prefers if I spin with the left knee touching right knee... Regardless, the wild wobbling during spins is not a good sign. :P

For those who might be interested, I found the following from Sports Illustrated Figure Skating by John Misha Petkevich regarding backspins, entering from a three-turn.

Preparation
1. left forward inside edge
2. wide step - right foot 18-24" from left foot
3. shift weight to right foot and bend right leg
4. rotate arms / shoulders counterclockwise until parallel to skating foot
5. pick up left foot, extend left leg back and to the inside of the imaginary circle created by the right forward inside edge (this is confusing, where is the left leg??)
6. when about to lose control of the right forward inside edge, do an inside three-turn, rock to the ball, swing back around the skating leg in a wide arc
7. lean slightly forward to the center of the imaginary circle, look in the direction of skating
(I combined 5-7. from two different sections, please correct if something was not interpreted correctly)

After three-turn
1. stand straight over the skate and turn left hip out
2. place free leg in front and bend it slightly, holding thigh parallel to the ice and left foot no lower than right knee
3. arms straight out to the side, look over left shoulder

Acceleration
1. balance and center the spin
2. bring left foot to right knee w/o droppping the left thigh
3. left foot crossed over the right knee slightly
4. join hands in at the sternum, make sure elbows don't shift and shoulder remain still
5. to further accelerate, pass left foot down the outside of the right leg, pressing the left heel down

Exit (from straight left leg crossed in front of straight right skating leg, legs together)
Stage 1
1. bring hands up to chest, lifting elbows out to the side, arms parallel to the ice
2. lift left leg at the knee, keeping left foot crossed over and close to the right leg
3. keep right leg straight
Stage 2
1. Uncross the left leg
2. open arms out to the basic position, left arm slightly in front
3. extend left leg straight back and bend right knee deeply
4. knee locked, leg turned out, toe pointed

I highly recommend this book, great value. Although the technique described is still too advanced to a beginner like me, at least it breaks down the motions for me so I understand what to work toward.

[dbny]

OK it has been confusing as confusing could be :) I've been practicing the deep RBO edges with 1) left hip open, thigh parallel to ice, and knee bend and 2) left foot crossed in front of right foot. Used to be difficult with straightened skating leg, but getting slightly steadier.

But an instructor argued against practicing these saying it's totally different from spining on a small circle. :confused: Another instructor still prefers if I spin with the left knee touching right knee...


Every instructor has their favorite teaching methods and sometimes they do conflict with those of other instructors. This does not mean that any of them are wrong. Some things work for some people and not for others. The principle I teach by is "if something isn't working, try something different."

I like the Petkevich book, but a book can only take you so far. I find books are more useful for understanding new elements than for learning how to do them.

[icedancer2]

Preparation

5. pick up left foot, extend left leg back and to the inside of the imaginary circle created by the right forward inside edge (this is confusing, where is the left leg??)



If you are on a right inside edge your left leg is inside the circle (created by you on your right inside edge).

This is exactly how I learned a back spin many moons ago - in the age of John Misha Petkovich...

[jjane45]

If you are on a right inside edge your left leg is inside the circle (created by you on your right inside edge).
This is exactly how I learned a back spin many moons ago - in the age of John Misha Petkovich...
So 5. is after the three-turn then? Should the order of 6. and 5. be switched in the preparation section? Thanks for helping! I found it more difficult than the pivot approach but maybe it's much better for getting the correct edge...


Every instructor has their favorite teaching methods and sometimes they do conflict with those of other instructors. This does not mean that any of them are wrong. Some things work for some people and not for others. The principle I teach by is "if something isn't working, try something different."
I like the Petkevich book, but a book can only take you so far. I find books are more useful for understanding new elements than for learning how to do them.
I really appreciate different inputs especially when the current approach has stagnated. I was however sort of lost because each approach will take some time to experiment and I do not know which one to pick! Sorry that I came across a bit rude! :bow:


MANY THANKS EVERYONE!

[fsk8r]

So 5. is after the three-turn then? Should the order of 6. and 5. be switched in the preparation section? Thanks for helping! I found it more difficult than the pivot approach but maybe it's much better for getting the correct edge...


As I read it, you're holding your left leg out to the side (and back say about 4 to 5 o'clock) when you're doing the right forward inside edge just before you 3turn.

If I'm getting it right (based on how I'm being taught) he's then leaving the left leg there so that when you 3 turn it ends up being in front (where you would have it for doing a loop jump take off).

Not sure if that's any clearer.

[icedancer2]

As I read it, you're holding your left leg out to the side (and back say about 4 to 5 o'clock) when you're doing the right forward inside edge just before you 3turn.

If I'm getting it right (based on how I'm being taught) he's then leaving the left leg there so that when you 3 turn it ends up being in front (where you would have it for doing a loop jump take off).

Not sure if that's any clearer.

I think you actually mean holding your left leg inside the circle at 7 or 8 o'clock. Between 4 and 5 o'clock would be very difficult!

To the Original Poster, this is in the Preparation section, when you are doing your RFI 3 turn.

[jjane45]

I think you actually mean holding your left leg inside the circle at 7 or 8 o'clock. Between 4 and 5 o'clock would be very difficult!

To the Original Poster, this is in the Preparation section, when you are doing your RFI 3 turn.

Ouch I could not read! 7 or 8 o'clock makes lot of sense as it allows the swing motion, but it's not quite extending the left leg "back" though. Thank you again!

[fsk8r]

I think you actually mean holding your left leg inside the circle at 7 or 8 o'clock. Between 4 and 5 o'clock would be very difficult!

whoops! spot the leftie!
in my head i'd mirrored everything but forgot to mirror my mental clock!

[icedancer2]

whoops! spot the leftie!
in my head i'd mirrored everything but forgot to mirror my mental clock!

Well I had to look at an actual clock (with numbers!) to get that one also.

If I were telling someone where to put the leg I would say something like, "back and to the side" - and you're right, that puts the free leg in front after you complete the turn and you can pull into that backspin!

[jjane45]

Thank you people for the tips, I love this forum!! Finally got ISI3 change foot spin out of the way (phew~) and will focus on the correct edge now.

Today I tried crossing the free leg over the skating leg and got a few revs in slow motion. I think it really did force an outside edge better!!

Also attempted entering the backspin from 3-turn. From what I saw it seems right after the turn people get very high on the toepicks for a brief moment and then start spinning on the ball. I did not dare to go on toepicks (yet) and pretty much ended up with wild twizzles after the 3-turn... Gotta have coach check it out tomorrow in lesson :roll: