ISI vs Basic Skills

[Luvs2sk8]

My rink has a new skating director, and they want to change from Basic Skills to ISI. The other rinks in the area are all Basic Skills, and the director is dead set on making the change. I'm trying to figure out the pros and cons of this move, for both parents and coaches. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[Skittl1321]

What you are calling Basic Skills is actually USFSA Learn to Skate program. ISI has a LTS program too that teaches about the same stuff.

USFSA is the governing body of skating in the US- it's essentially a pyramid program that trains skaters to become the elite skaters- the bottom of the pyramid (basic skills) does 2 things- provides a pool of up and coming skaters to develop and provides funding for the top of the pyramid.

ISI is an organization of professionals (rinks, historically) who want to support skating as a business. Their interest in running a skating program is that skaters keep ice rinks open. Because they aren't training olympians, their focus is recreation.

At the basic skills level- I didn't notice much difference between USFSA and ISI. One has "greek" named levels, one numerical. But more or less the same skills are taught. ISI teaches back crossovers at the Beta level by picking the foot up, which some people don't like. They also tend to have one "challenge" move in each level.

As far as parents are concerned- I would think many prefer ISI. Competitions tend to be much less expensive, with many more types of events to enter (so you get more "bang for your buck" when traveling to a competition if the skater can enter 6 events instead of 2). But for the most part, they are the same thing.

Serious skaters who start in ISI will cross over to USFS main stream testing when they are ready to take pre-preliminary tests. Many skaters continue to compete in both organizations, and there is no reason not to do that if both are in your area.

Really, what the rink does won't affect anyone except students in the "Basic 8s" and I bet most won't know the difference. For my basic skills I switched between a USFS rink to an ISI rink that then changed to a USFS rink. No biggie at all. Private lessons won't be effected at all- the coach can choose which system to prepare the skater to compete in, or be open to doing both.

[icestalker]

Well, Skittle pretty much covered it.

But why does the director want to change it? If the rink runs fine on USFSA, what's the point? Especially since all the other rinks are run on USFSA Basic Skills, how does the new director plan to organize competitions when no other rink is familiar with ISI? IMO, the rink should stay with USFSA. Why stir up something that already works perfectly fine?

[phoenix]

Personally I hate teaching ISI classes because IMO opinion they don't break things down enough, or they skip what I think are important building block skills, or they teach things out of order. For example, you have to learn 3 turns before you learn back outside edges, and you never learn 2 footed turns to introduce the motion of the turn before you're expected to do it on 1 foot.

That's just one example. There are 6 basic skills levels (B1-6) to 4 ISI (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) levels (I'm equating tots & pre-alpha), and they just don't cover as much, or are as thorough in teaching solid basics. My 2 cents.

[AgnesNitt]

Maybe someone can answer this question for me. ISI is a rink association, and USFSA is a skater association. Is there a difference in the cost to the rink for the two programs?

[Skittl1321]

If the rink runs fine on USFSA, what's the point? Especially since all the other rinks are run on USFSA Basic Skills, how does the new director plan to organize competitions when no other rink is familiar with ISI? IMO, the rink should stay with USFSA. Why stir up something that already works perfectly fine?

I have no idea, but I would guess there is more to it than just the basic skills program. There is as AgnesNitt pointed out- the cost to the rink to join the organization. (It's not high for ISI- the 9 of us on our synchro team used to split it to register the rink once we switched to USFSA, it was like $300). The support (rink management seminars, not just how to do LTS, but how to do public skates well, how to advertise, how to increase revenue) given to the rink by the organization (I'd be this is higher from ISI- they are in the business of keeping rinks in business). The benefits that come from the organization (discounted insurance?)

It's not just about basic skills.

As for how will they do a competition- a coach at our rink hosted an ISI competition recently, even though the rink is USFS affiliated (like I said the synchro team registers the rink with ISI, and the coach does ISI elsewhere). IT was hugely attended, most kids just registered their tests with ISI along with the registration form for the competition- the coach sent them all in together, and everyone had a great time. The fees for my 5 events were less than 1 event would have cost me at the USFS competition our rink hosted a few months later.

[Query]

By the way, most published materials of the USFSA are now labelled USFS. It is possible they have been renamed, and that USFSA no longer exists per se - I can't tell. But I'll say USFSA, because that's what most people say.

I'm neither a coach nor a program director, so some of what follows may be wrong or out of date. I'm just basing it on what I tried to read in what ISI and USFSA openly publish. The rules are so complicated, that almost certainly some of this is wrong.

As far as I can tell, the rink has to do absolutely nothing to teach ISI - any certified coach can teach it, on any ice, and the rink, coach and student arecovered by the coach's insurance. A single coach can even test and judge competitions - up to some level. Whereas the rink has to create a USFSA program, designate a USFSA program director, pay money, and do paperwork. And for the most part, the coaches need to be designated and registered in advance as USFSA Basic Skills coaches with the USFSA by the program director, and each of the students also needs to be designated and registered in advance as USFSA Basic Skills students (for a $9 cut). In principal, a student can not walk into a rink and take a USFSA Basic Skills class on the first day, without having been registered with USFSA ahead of time - if the rink wants the USFSA insurance to apply. Since rinks do want that, many of them have to take out other insurance too.

Note that ordinary coaches registered and certified within USFSA or PSA programs can not teach USFSA Basic Skills, until the program director has gone through the paperwork to make them USFSA Basic Skills coaches. Coaches can not register themselves.

(On the other USFSA Basic Skills coaches do not have to be certified in any way - anyone, with or without knowledge of skating, can coach USFSA Basic Skills, if the rink program director OKs and registers them - for the required fee. The Program director doesn't have to be certified or know anything about skating either. I think ISI coaches have to be ISI or USFSA or PSA certified.)

USFSA judges are needed to judge tests and competitions at all levels except Basic Skills.

Another thing is that as far as I can tell, any ISI member (skaters can join for $9 or whatever they are charging now) can buy the teaching manuals that tell you how skating is supposed to be done, taught and judged, whereas USFSA makes it very hard for the skater - there are a lot more manuals, and I think the USFSA program director has to buy some of them, and I think only registered coaches are supposed to be allowed to see them. In addition, they rely a lot on the PSA program - which means that materials are very expensive and can only be bought by PSA members - and skaters who aren't PSA coaches can't join, nor I think are they supposed to be allowed to see most PSA materials. Plus some of the materials are available (I think) only if you take expensive PSA seminars. And the USFSA partly relies on randomly organized "Communications" to tell you what the skating and judging rules are, rather than the ordinary published materials.

The ISI materials are simply written and easy to read, and are meant for the ordinary skater or coach. The USFSA materials are mostly a very long complex set of rules on who is eligible to compete, and hardly talk about skating at all, and would be very hard for a non-lawyer to read. I can only begin to understand the USFSA rulebook, the basic book that almost everyone in the USFSA gets.

In addition, the ISI lets you run silly little productions and in-rink events with lots of props, whereas USFSA bars props, and mostly won't approve non-USFSA format events - and USFSA makes you pay a cut of all paid events, which ISI doesn't.

The ISI lets you buy cute little patches kids can wear to show you have passed the ISI skating levels - and you don't even have to register that passage with the ISI, though you can, and I think you must if the skater wants to compete higher level ISI events.

I think the club thing is separate from the LTS program, but I think there are a lot more rules and paperwork for forming and running a USFSA club than for an ISI club. E.g., before letting you join a USFSA club, the club officer is supposed to check with other clubs you used to belong to to make sure you were a member in good standing, and to check on whether you are an "amateur" - which in their terminology, means that you are "eligible", and can compete. And speaking of "amateur", USFSA coaches have to pay a cut of their pay to the USFSA - at least if they want be eligible to compete themselves. Not so for the ISI.

A skater can not be registered as a Basic Skills student, if they have taken any other USFSA tests. If they aren't so registered, I don't think they are covered by USFSA insurance. Not so for ISI.

All in all, it just looks a lot easier and cheaper for the rink or club or coach to run an ISI program, and it gives them a lot more freedom.

It's very easy to understand why a rink would try to avoid dealing with the USFSA.

On the other hand, if a skater wants to go to the Olympics or Worlds, she/he has to pass and compete within the USFSA system. That doesn't exclude passing and competing within ISI too - though the rules are complicated on the order in which they pass or compete across clubs.

So a rink that avoids having a USFSA program has a problem: Their more ambitious students may skate and test in someone else's program, at someone else's rink, at least some of the time. It is better business for the rink if students aren't forced to realize that other area rinks exist.

[Luvs2sk8]

So a rink that avoids having a USFSA program has a problem: Their more ambitious students may skate and test in someone else's program, at someone else's rink, at least some of the time. It is better business for the rink if students aren't forced to realize that other area rinks exist.

That's what I was figuring. There is a relatively new rink near ours that opened up, and caters to the more "ambitious" students, and I was thinking that our rink may lose business to that rink as a result of the switch.

[Icefrog]

I took all my LTS classes at an ISI rink and did some ISI skating and now I skate at an ISI rink and and mostly at a USFS Basic Skills rink, but once skaters move on past LTS levels and get an axel or at least all the singles they start to test USFS they don't bother with ISI and they join the local USFS club. I think it makes the kids feel more "serious" to not bother with the ISI stuff anymore, but thats just my observation and I don't know anything about the logistics of it all. I did however read this

http://xan-boni.blogspot.com/

blog post this morning on Basic Skills and Learn to Skate and I learned the same things that are taught in the Basic Skills program in my ISI classes like rocking horses and sloams way back in the day when I was learning to skate.

Off Topic, but if an eligable skater teaches privates the USFS gets some of it? How does that work? I'm looking into teaching learn to skate class and hopefully I will have students eventually so I will have to give USFS some of the money??

[phoenix]

Off Topic, but if an eligable skater teaches privates the USFS gets some of it? How does that work? I'm looking into teaching learn to skate class and hopefully I will have students eventually so I will have to give USFS some of the money??

No--where did you get that idea??

[Skittl1321]

That's what I was figuring. There is a relatively new rink near ours that opened up, and caters to the more "ambitious" students, and I was thinking that our rink may lose business to that rink as a result of the switch.

At the same time, most rinks don't make their money from serious figure skaters. They make them through public skate (and a LTS program that guarantees the population knows how to skate well enough to take advantage of public skate) and hockey.

So if the rink figures out a program that supports general skaters, hockey, and low level figure skaters (the majority of any figure skating program unless you are a major training center) then they might do better than if they catered to ambitious figure skaters.

[Icefrog]

No--where did you get that idea??


From this. I've never heard it before too.



USFSA coaches have to pay a cut of their pay to the USFSA - at least if they want be eligible to compete themselves. Not so for the ISI.


\

[phoenix]

From this. I've never heard it before too.

It isn't true.

[Clarice]

Coaches certainly don't pay any kind of commission to USFS for lessons taught. We do have to pay for our memberships like anybody else, and have to pay an annual registration fee if we want to coach students for tests or sanctioned events like competitions or shows. (Coaches younger than 18, or those who teach only Basic Skills classes are not required to register.) This pays for a criminal background check and a copy of the Rule Book. We also have to show proof of liability insurance, and so have to pay for that. There are also annual Continuing Education requirements, which have fees attached. If you consider that paying "a cut of their pay to the USFSA", then I guess we do. It was my understanding that ISI coaches have certain tests and/or registration fees they have to pay for as well - is that not correct?

[Icefrog]

Coaches certainly don't pay any kind of commission to USFS for lessons taught. We do have to pay for our memberships like anybody else, and have to pay an annual registration fee if we want to coach students for tests or sanctioned events like competitions or shows. (Coaches younger than 18, or those who teach only Basic Skills classes are not required to register.) This pays for a criminal background check and a copy of the Rule Book. We also have to show proof of liability insurance, and so have to pay for that. There are also annual Continuing Education requirements, which have fees attached. If you consider that paying "a cut of their pay to the USFSA", then I guess we do. It was my understanding that ISI coaches have certain tests and/or registration fees they have to pay for as well - is that not correct?

So since I'm already a USFS member I don't have to rejoin I would just need the coaches fee and insurance? Is it expensive? I don't mind paying for the education. Well I don't mind paying any of the fees I'm just curious.

[phoenix]

By the time you're all done, it's a couple hundred dollars.

[Clarice]

So since I'm already a USFS member I don't have to rejoin I would just need the coaches fee and insurance? Is it expensive? I don't mind paying for the education. Well I don't mind paying any of the fees I'm just curious.

You have to pay your annual USFS membership fee, which varies depending on your club or whether you're joining as an individual member.

You can get liability insurance through USFS or PSA. USFS insurance is $94. PSA's is $84, but you have to be a member. Those dues vary depending on the type of membership. Coaches who take skaters to qualifying competitions are required to join PSA.

The USFS coach registration fee is $40. There is a $15 fee to take the CER courses online through the PSA web site. Two of the tests are free, but the others are $25 apiece.

[Skittl1321]

It was my understanding that ISI coaches have certain tests and/or registration fees they have to pay for as well - is that not correct?

I don't think ISI coaches have to have any actual qualifications- they just pay the fee (like USFS coaches did up until last year- 2 years ago?)

I was a registered coach for a small amount of time, just because they needed me as a judge at a local competition. To be a judge- you DO have to take a test of the rulebook, more than what is required for USFS Basic Skills comps, but much much less than what is required of real USFS judges, obviously.

Like the old USFS way, I don't think ISI checks insurance (I know I didn't have it...) but a good ISI coach should be able to provide proof of insurance to their rink/skating parents who check.

Since the OP is asking specifically about USFS basic skills- it should be mentioned that right now there are no qualifications to be a coach, the rink just has to say okay. Insurance is provided through the basic skills program, though many coaches also hold private insurance (as do ISI ones).

Many ISI coaches are also PSA members.

[GoSveta]

Personally I hate teaching ISI classes because IMO opinion they don't break things down enough, or they skip what I think are important building block skills, or they teach things out of order. For example, you have to learn 3 turns before you learn back outside edges, and you never learn 2 footed turns to introduce the motion of the turn before you're expected to do it on 1 foot.

That's just one example. There are 6 basic skills levels (B1-6) to 4 ISI (alpha, beta, gamma, delta) levels (I'm equating tots & pre-alpha), and they just don't cover as much, or are as thorough in teaching solid basics. My 2 cents.

ISI Pre-Alpha:

Pre-Alpha:

Two-Foot Glide
One-Foot Glide (Right & Left)
Forward Swizzle
Backward Wiggle
Backward Swizzle

Is comparable to USFS Basic 1. They have their own Tots levels 1-4. There are 5 ISI Basic Skills levels. Compare that to USFS Basic Skills:

Basic 1:

Sit on ice and stand up
March forward across the ice
Forward two foot glide
Dip
Forward swizzles, 6-8 in a row
Backward wiggles, 6-8 in a fow
Snowplow stop
Rocking horse, 2-3 in a row
Two foot hop in place (Optional)

The other two ISI Pre-Alpha levels that aren't in Basic 1 are in Basic 2 (1 foot glides and Backward swizzles). ISI Pre-Alpha is harder than Basic 1. It goes beyond where Basic 1 goes, and most ISI levels are similar.

ISI has their own Tots 1-4 levels, and most of the USFS Basic 1 stuff is in ISI Tots. ISI Tots is not comparable to Snowplow Sam on a general level...

The lack of a two foot turn in ISI is not a factor. I don't see why it's a factor that you have to learn forward outside 3 turns before back outside edges.

There isn't a back outside edge in forward outside three turns, unless I'm missing something... USFS Basic skills teaches forward outside 3s in the same level as forward edges (Basic 4), but before backward edges (Basic 5). The hard thing about 3s is checking and holding the exit edge. Doing the actual turn isn't hard, and can be easily taught at the wall and/or by letting the skater balance on one foot and turn to find that spot.

As the skater's edges improve (as well as their core strength, balance, and control), so will their 3 turns.

ISI Tots 1 to FS1 is very similar to USFS Basic 1 to FS1. After that, the ISI program seems far more ambitious than the USFS program, which assumes serious students (or those who think they're serious :P) will have at least started Private Coaching sessions by that point.

[Isk8NYC]

The new director's probably familiar with the ISI and has decided to chart a course of catering to recreational skaters rather than the more competitive skaters that are already at the other rink. The purpose behind the ISI's test levels was to provide a challenge at each level to make it less easy to pass, so that the skater would continue to remain involved. The ISI pioneered "fun" events at competitions and the USFSA has copied it somewhat successfully, although the USFSA Artistic events have a different (and some say, poorly-defined) atmosphere.

The USFSA Basic Skills programs were specifically designed to take students out of the ISI programs that were so strong at the time and change rinks over from ISI to USFSA. A Basic Skills program can be administered by either the rink or the skating school. The USFSA provided a really well-designed turn-key program that made it very simple for a rink to start their own program. The intention was to feed students from the LTS programs into the Skating Clubs for memberships, testing and competitions. That doesn't always work out as planned, in my experience. As a result, many skating clubs have far fewer members today, even with that effort.

Both programs have their strengths and weaknesses. On paper, the lower levels are quite similar and yes, you do have to teach skills for ISI that aren't on the list of elements. That's why the ISI offers FREE educational workshops every fall as well as their "WeSkate" paid educational series. They're intended to train the trainer so that they have the knowledge to teach the program properly. On the other side, the USFSA has created more levels with a more defined progression. That's why many USFSA programs are able to have high school and college skaters coaching. There's less "how to teach" knowledge needed than with an ISI program.

The biggest disadvantage to ISI testing are the intrinsically-difficult element(s) that are included on each level. They were intended to be a challenge to master, but the downside is that they become an obstacle that frustrates and drives away skaters. A specific example would be the Axel on ISI Freestyle 5. USFSA Freeskate 6 has the axel prep, but doesn't require a completed jump.

The Basic Skills advantage is that their Freeskate tests feed into the traditional USFSA testing track, therefore it is more palatable to a skating director who was once a USFSA skater. Most USFSA skating clubs would implement a Basic Skills program rather than an ISI program for that very reason.

However, the main difference comes in competitions. The ISI puts a limit on all elements in each event. If you are an ISI Freestyle 4 competitor, you may not do an axel or there will be a penalty. In the USFSA Basic Skills program, similar restrictions exist but aren't always enforced by the judges. In the USFSA standard-track competitions, it's every man/woman for him/herself: there are very few limits, so skaters in the lowest levels can perform elements from much higher tests.

For the ISI, the rink must be a member of their association, so the rink pays a membership fee. The coaches are *supposed* to be Associate or Professional members, which is more expensive than a skater membership. That doesn't always happen unless the skating director enforces it.

Instructors teaching group lessons through either program are covered by insurance *if* the rink/club has enrolled them for the year. Some rinks save money by requiring individual instructor liability policies. All rinks and clubs require that insurance for private lessons. Some specify a particular type of insurance, such as the Professional Skaters Association (PSA) policy.

I haven't looked at the costs of the programs lately, but at one point the ISI program was more expensive if you had a substantial number of skaters enrolled. That may have changed and could be driving the choice at the OP's rink. I've also found that most directors are not open-minded. If they were USFSA skaters, they think the Basic Skills program is awesome. If they were ISI skaters, they are biased to believe that the ISI provides more opportunity for the recreational skater. There are some really successful ISI programs that are money-makers if the director has the talent and knowledge.

A chat with the director about the rink's programs and directions could be interesting.

[blue111moon]

ISI is cheaper for the rink than USFigure Skating. That seems to be the reason I hear most as to why rink owners favor it.

And for the person who asked about the names, USFSA stands United States Figure Skating Association which is the official corporate name of the organization. USFigureSkating (yes, it's one word) is the trademarked brand name and logo of the association. USFS is an unauthorized abreviation of the latter. They are one and the same. Old-timers (such as myself) tend to use USFSA out of habit and because it's shorter than typing out USFigureSkating.

And that's my pedantic lecture for the day. :)

[Skittl1321]

USFigureSkating (yes, it's one word) is the trademarked brand name and logo of the association. USFS is an unauthorized abreviation of the latter.

I think it has spaces in it. At least everywhere they use it on their website has spaces.

We are U.S. Figure Skating and should be referred to as such in all references. Abbreviations USFSA and USFS are not acceptable.

Of course, that's for branding and clubs. They can't stop me from typing it on a message board :)

[Query]

Well, as I had guessed, I got some things wrong.

Odd - some eligible coaches told me they had paid some of their teaching income to the USFSA to stay eligible. Either I mis-understood, or rules have changed.

Most local rinks near DC teach ISI LTS. Some teach USFSA BS, and some teach USA Hockey classes. Some teach more than one, as well as classes outside the syllabuses of any organization.

Two ambitious local group lessons programs, The Wheaton Skating Academy (http://www.wisa.us/), and The Mid-Atlantic Ice Dance College (http://www.midatlanticicedancecollege.com) are run outside ISI and USFSA syllabuses. Both are run by private instructors at rinks with their own ISI LTS programs. Both train hard-core competitive kids for USFSA standard track (not Basic Skills) competition, with an eye towards international competition.

If I ran a rink (:lol: Unlikely. They generally hire certified coaches.), I would go with ISI lessons. Who wants to sign legal documents and contracts too long for even a lawyer to understand? I like ISI's user friendly reading material that ordinary people can read. I would allow all certified and insured private coaches to teach without commission, on the theory that coaches bring and keep other customers to a rink. Most certified coaches carry their own insurance. It is easier with self-insured coaches to run classes outside the ISI and USFSA syllabuses, which a lot of adult or advanced skaters like. E.g., I love the idea of a social ice dance program for less competitive adults, and of adult classes in general. I also think standard ISI LTS and USFSA BS classes discourage most boys and men, and something else is needed. And I'd love to find a way to teach falls at a rink.

I doubt many people travel to distant rinks to take LTS vs BS classes. Advanced skaters mostly take private lessons instead of group lessons anyway. When they supplement privates with group lessons, they take whatever is locally available.

[blue111moon]

I stand corrected on the spaces. :)

As for rules, ets. There's a big difference between the USFigure Skating Rulebook - which is a massive document that includes the bylaws, committee rules, and everything that pertains to membership, eligibility, competititons and testing for all four disciplines, which very few members actually ever seem to read - and the Basic Skills Handbook which is less than 50 pages and basically just lists the tests and registration information. The last few years USFS has put all the test rules in a separate binding to make it easier for skaters, coaches and test chairs to find what they need.

I've been directing my club's USFS Basic Skills program for four or five years now, and it's pretty simple and straightforward. I find the ISI documentation pretty vague, other than the "send us your money" part. A lot is left up to the program director's discretion, which then depends on the expertise of the director, which can vary widely.

I guess it all comes down to what you're most familiar with and what your aims are for your program. If my rink insisted on all programs switching from one to the other, I'd want pretty solid documentation as to why and what the benefits would be. And "the skating director likes it better" would not be reason enough for me.