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icerinque
06-01-2010, 11:12 AM
Hi All,

Any adult skaters have success (or not) with off or on ice training aids? (Dartfish, Champion Cords, spinners, etc.)

dbny
06-01-2010, 11:18 AM
The best spinner I've ever used is a piece of cardboard on my bathroom floor in bare feet.

rsk8d
06-01-2010, 12:37 PM
Great question. As a coach and skater, I have tried several things to supplement my off-ice programs. I have never had much success with the spinner, as the centering of weight is different of the ground than on skates. Also, it is very easy to step off on the spinner at an odd angle and hurt yourself (just my opinion). My most favorite thing to use is the Perfect-A-Poise, since I am very biomechanically oriented. It was designed by Mathew Gates, world ice dancer competitor and coach, to help skaters with body alignment in stroking, crossovers, turns, jumps, etc. It is a durable sport cord/resistance band with a shoulder strap on one end, and a strap to hook around the boot on the other end. You attach it to opposite extremities to promote correct mechanics. The Perfect-A-Poise is how I perfected inside and outside rockers, and has helped tremendously with my students moves in the field. I am lucky to have the last few that were made, as they became to expensive to produce. Mathew also came up with a strengthening tool called the Extreme Stride, which is great for hip and leg strengthening.

The Off-Ice Edge is wonderfully designed, yet not widely used because of the high price tag. It would be great if skating clubs would purchase several for their skaters to use, as they are very good for improving balance, hip and leg strength, and correct body alignment for jump takeoffs.

For more info on these training aids, check them out here (http://www.sk8strong.com/trainingaidcatalog.html)

Skittl1321
06-01-2010, 01:27 PM
I have a Maxi-Flex which is a stretching aide. It does exactly what it says it does, and is very useful- if one actually uses it. That's my main problem.

Stretching spirals in it hurt my knees a bit (I have knee issues though), but it was good for forward and side extensions for me.


A coach at my rink duct tapes squeeky dog toys to his students ankles- they have to squeak it while in jumps or backspins- to prove they are crossing in the right position. It works, and the kids love it.

Isk8NYC
06-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Champion Cords are the one thing I use regularly, for both myself and for my students. I use the cords for body alignment, especially when controlling flapping arms and flailing legs. They can also be used off-ice for stretching and flexibility - even replacing the Maxi-Flex for a lot less money. I was lucky enough to take an on-ice demonstration with Sheila Therin, which was awesome, but her DVD intro is just as good.

(A cheap knockoff for low-level skaters is to string together two or three "tarp tiedown" cords and a sturdy caribiner "S" clip from the hardware store - total cost was half the price of the name-brand cords and works just as well for lower-level skaters. I save the "real" ones for skaters doing doubles and flying spins.)

I also use ankle weights for off-ice training. They simulate the weight of the skates for leg lifts and stretching/holding. Skates with guards work pretty much just as well to a point, but are more cumbersome when the phone rings and the cordless is downstairs, lol.

I haven't used Dartfish, but I don't think it's needed below a certain level. Video recording and review are critical to developing body awareness. I use it often when I skate for myself, just with a small camera and playback. With a good camera, or a laptop with good software, you can effectively get the stop-action or slow-motion playback needed to point out changes to the students or for yourself.

For coaching, I can't tell you how many times I've had a student repeat the same error, ignoring my attempts at correction, because they're working off of bad habits and not *thinking* about the correction. It's vital when trying to correct a poor habit, to record and show the skater what they're actually doing. They *think* they're checking/holding/stretching/stepping down properly, but they need to see themselves in order to realize that the coach is not being picky, their skating is incorrect.

I don't think spin trainers are really useful as people think for learning spins. For beginners, spin trainers do NOT teach them how to spin or manage dizziness. The students are better off with other techniques that are far less expensive. A spin trainer is useful for higher-level spinners, but they are best used with an off-ice coach (at least, initially) who can really teach the skater how to use them properly.

I own a metal spin trainer, but I find socks on a clean kitchen floor work just as well for most upright spins. If anyone's dead-set on buying a spinner, borrow a few different types to try out. Some work better than others for different people. Also, look into a quick "how to" session with an experienced off-ice trainer.


The Maxi-Flex is excellent at building flexibility, if used properly and regularly. The skater MUST warm up thorougly before using or injuries can result. The Maxi-Flex doesn't address a basic spiral extension issue: many skaters just don't have the strength to lift and hold their foot above the hip, even if they can pull their foot over their head with the Maxi-Flex or their hand. Strength training and conditioning are vital counterparts to the Maxi-Flex to get real results. (Tip: Keep your directions in a safe place, because the company doesn't have them online AFAIK. I scanned a copy for safekeeping.)


I think most people who buy this type of equipment really view these items as toys, not tools. However, adults seem to be the exception to that - we actually USE these tools properly and ask for advice. Most of them are very expensive and many younger skaters I know let the tools sit in skate bags or at home after the first month of use because they never really develop a routine for using them. A better investment would be to take off-ice classes with a real coach. Most figure skating off-ice coaches ALREADY own this type of equipment, so you can learn how to use it properly, get in a routine, and decide if you need to buy your own.

Isk8NYC
06-01-2010, 01:33 PM
A coach at my rink duct tapes squeeky dog toys to his students ankles- they have to squeak it while in jumps or backspins- to prove they are crossing in the right position. It works, and the kids love it.
I love this idea - someone else on this site mentioned it a while ago (Nova, perhaps?), but I couldn't figure out how to safely keep it on the ankle. Duct Tape Rules! lol

Sheila Thuren also has an "ankle buzzer" that serves the same purpose, but straps on more easily.

This is a much less expensive solution. Thanks for the tip.

AgnesNitt
06-01-2010, 01:48 PM
For coaching, I can't tell you how many times I've had a student repeat the same error, ignoring my attempts at correction, because they're working off of bad habits and not *thinking* about the correction. It's vital when trying to correct a poor habit, to record and show the skater what they're actually doing. They *think* they're checking/holding/stretching/stepping down properly, but they need to see themselves in order to realize that the coach is not being picky, their skating is incorrect.



I take a Flip camera to the rink and hand it to my coach. Just one button to push, and it's easy to use with gloves on. The only downside is watching myself skate. oooo .... that's painful
But best training aid ever for low level skater like myself, and darned cheap.

Skittl1321
06-01-2010, 01:56 PM
I take a Flip camera to the rink and hand it to my coach. Just one button to push, and it's easy to use with gloves on. The only downside is watching myself skate. oooo .... that's painful
But best training aid ever for low level skater like myself, and darned cheap.
emphasis mine...


Aren't those like $150-$200? Man I wish I had your budget.

(That said- I do like to have video of myself.)

AgnesNitt
06-01-2010, 02:40 PM
emphasis mine...


Aren't those like $150-$200? Man I wish I had your budget.

Well, I have one of the original models (http://www.amazon.com/Flip-Ultra-Camcorder-60-Minutes-Black/dp/B000V1PXMI/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1275419122&sr=8-17) at $127 new, or $78 used. Since the new HD ones came out, you can find the original model on eBay for a variety of prices (down to $30 but usually about $75ish).
But compare the cost of a camera, and learning from seeing yourself immediately after a pattern, or a jump and instantly seeing what you're doing wrong. I've trained people in other physical tasks and instantaneous feedback really shortens the learning curve. Think of how it could save you coach fees, and ice time, or the fee for a failed test.
It would be an investment in learning and you would gain the ability to compare yourself in certain maneuvers over time.

sk8lady
06-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Champion cords have been extremely useful to me AND my students--I was able to correct my camel almost immediately with them, and my students hate them so much they will work much harder if I promise to put them away.
Metal spinner was of limited use in learning the backspin, and I fell off and hurt myself a few times. No idea how.
Digital camera with video. I hate watching myself but, as Agnes said, it's probably the most useful thing you can do to correct errors, although it is disappointing to see that you are not actually about three inches, and not a foot and a half, off the ice
Lorenzo the Stick Man. We took an old hockey stick with the blade broken off, sanded it, and taped both ends so that I have a really good stick to hold in front of me to correct my dance positions and to use during power pulls. The innocents at my rink were calling him Mr. Stick. Bad choice. I named him Lorenzo.

Isk8NYC
06-01-2010, 04:49 PM
Champion cords <snip> my students hate them so much they will work much harder if I promise to put them away.
ROFLOL! My students call it "The Leash" because it's for bad dogz who don't follow instructions. (The "z" is theirs, not mine.) I use
the cords all the time, even in groups to teach three-turn and mohawk checking.

Sessy
06-01-2010, 05:14 PM
emphasis mine...


Aren't those like $150-$200? Man I wish I had your budget.

(That said- I do like to have video of myself.)

My camera just died but I had a PHOTOcamera with a 30 fps filming speed that sufficed quite well (it had no audio recording though). Basically I went to mediamarkt and just said, ok, I need it for around $80, and I need to film as high-fps as possible with it, nothing fancy. Worked well enough.



BTW - your hard blade guards are a good training tool. Holding onto mine while spinning helps with the spins.



Can anyone tell me more about the champion cords? I suspect they're easy to make for a fraction of the price (if you count that over here, I'd have to order them from overseas).

Isk8NYC
06-01-2010, 06:06 PM
Aren't those like $150-$200? Man I wish I had your budget.
I have a $70 lightweight digital video camera that I bought just for skating. Even if the camera doesn't do rinkside slo-mo and stop action, you can always upload the video to a computer and get those features.

If you watch for sales, and use gift cards, etc. a low-end videocam isn't unaffordable and as a coach, it's a business expense. I've used my cell phone or my regular digital camera in a pinch, so you don't have to break the bank if you already own such a tool.

You don't need high resolution to check out basic skills in skating such as checking, position, leg lift, etc. You'd need it for someone doing doubles because you want to focus on leg wraps and open hips, unpointed toes. Those are difficult to see without the special viewing features.

kayskate
06-01-2010, 07:22 PM
I've actually put a tiara on a student's head to help her correct her posture. it worked wonders. She kept her head up and stood taller.

other than ankle weights, I have not used flexibility aids. The ankle weights are better for building strength to accompany flex. I think yoga and pilates classes are great for flex. I have used straps in a pilates class for flex and stretch.

I have used a metal spinner to work on snapping the hip closed for a backspin and axel. I also like a trampoline for aerial positions and aerial rotation.

Kay

teresa
06-01-2010, 10:30 PM
My coach has used Champion cords and Dartfish with me. I always feel a little silly. =-) Using Dartfish hurts a little as you see every little thing you do wrong. However, every time we do I hurt a little less and focus better on what I need to learn. It's not a one time learning tool. I've been able to see things my coach talks about. It helps to see what I'm actually doing instead of what I think I'm doing. I've also been able to spot improvement, not enough!, using it from time to time. I have the most success with little props, like a glove, most often. I can use this tool on my own and I don't feel so obvious.

teresa

Sessy
06-02-2010, 02:53 AM
I have used a metal spinner to work on snapping the hip closed for a backspin and axel. I also like a trampoline for aerial positions and aerial rotation.

Kay

A girl who skated at my club, Alexandra, broke her ankle that way. Dunno what happened after, if she did return to skating it wasn't to our club. No idea if it was a freak accident or something inherent to the trampoline.

Skate@Delaware
06-03-2010, 06:33 PM
Used properly, aids can be very helpful. Without proper training and/or supervision they can be a waste of time and can cause accidents

I have use the following:
*metal spinner-most beneficial for backspins, best if used at a slow rate of speed in an area that is about 10-15 feet clear all the way around (you will fall off until you get the hang of it)
*spinning office chair-will get you used to spinning. Best if used on a carpeted floor with nothing close by to whack your legs on
*Dartfish-used this for waltz jumps & stroking. Found I was flat-footing my landings (duh) and pushing to the side (didn't know that) instead of more to the back
*Champion Cords-absolutely the best tool I've come across! I've found so many uses for them, upper/lower body single/double cords, on/off-ice!
*hockey puck-for power pulls (suggested by someone here)
*Maxi-Flex-for stretching
Any of the various props used for yoga: straps & blocks for off-ice stretching & balancing.

I want someone to invent a proximity buzzer I can stick on my behind....when I reach "close enough" on my sit spins it makes a "happy sound" and when I'm close but not quite there it makes an "annoying" sound. Because I always think I'm lower than I really am.

rsk8d
06-03-2010, 08:31 PM
I agree with Skate@Delaware about proper usage or a skater may get hurt. I have seen several coaches using Champion Cords improperly, and it drives me crazy. Too many people don't spend the time watching instructional DVDs and reading directions. There is a purpose to them! :) A coach needs to have a good understanding of proper body mechanics to use these types of training tools, or they won't help a skater.

I forgot to mention the ankle buzzer in my previous post. Another great invention; especially useful for a skater who has a wrap or loose air position. Good for kids who want to have fun and hear the sound (and also accomplish the correct air position at the same time, and for competitive skater who is trying to perfect their jumps. I have one student who is diligent about using it while learning a triple loop, and it has definately made a difference. All of a sudden, the buzzers have been FLYING off the shleves on my site lately!

Isk8NYC
06-04-2010, 07:58 AM
Champion Cord has a few instructional movies on their site, but I agree that the live demos and DVDs are better. Is there an instruction manual as well? I just looked at these in my favorite figure skating store* and didn't see any documentation.

http://www.championcords.com/index.php?pageid=6&page=Movies


* Sadly, my favorite figure skating store, It Figures! in Cary, NC closed up shop last month. Such a shame - they were so good with my kids and students, willing to order whatever you needed, and actually caring about the boot sizing.

Skate@Delaware
06-04-2010, 07:59 AM
I forgot to mention some of the other aids I use:

*Adult Training DVD from Sk8Strong-an excellent circuit training for upper/lower body along with plyometrics
*TRX Gym-in-a-bag-this is a strap-based system that uses your body weight as resistance. Great for any skill level, great for core work, hundreds of exercises
*Namaste Yoga-on Comcast Cable, I will hit the pause button occasionally to slow down the pace & so I can hold the poses longer. I also have yoga "props" such as straps & blocks which are very helpful
*P90X-I just started this but I'm enjoying it so far (so far, 1st week I may change my opinion later LOL)
*Various weights, resistance bands, kettlebells-I have nothing over 15 pounds and can get a good workout. The bands travel with me as well.
Since I've started pairs and nursing school, a resistance training program has become even more important. I need to build up my upper-body to protect myself at work AND to be able to work with my partner. I can't expect him to do all the work, I have to contribute my share.
and the best tool: Proper Nutrition. I don't eat perfect but I try to eat a balanced diet whenever possible. Especially when I have hours of skating ahead of me. It's not possible for me to skate well when all I've eaten is junk.

rsk8d
06-04-2010, 12:28 PM
I forgot to mention some of the other aids I use:

*Adult Training DVD from Sk8Strong-an excellent circuit training for upper/lower body along with plyometrics
.

Thanks for the Sk8Strong plug Skate@Delaware. I'm glad you find it beneficial!