is this move possible

[falen]

this is back crossovers going into a spin (I think)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynTKzMitDfc&feature=related
here is my question
instead of doing a spin at the end can one do a waltz jump?
And if that is possible how would I call it when I ask coach?
Thanks in advance
Edit: reson why I ask is she jumps off the left foot so she is supposed to back crossover CCW for her program, but she ends up half pumping because she is weak that side, but she has great back crossovers CW, and I am embarassed to ask because I can't demonstrate and I fear I would sound dumb explaining it (like I do now:giveup:)

[phoenix]

Yes, it is possibe, but the jump would be more difficult & wouldn't have the speed & flow that it should. Anyway, she shouldn't be encouraged to work around a weakness so she can avoid it, esp something so basic as back crossovers. If she's learning to jump then it's definitely time she mastered those! That is, of course, unless there is some physical reason that she really can't do it. She needs that same entrance for salchow anyway and eventually axel. Now is not the time to bail on the basics just to get to jump. If you can't do the entrance, you're not ready to do the jump. That's just my opinion.

[falen]

Thanks
She actually was working on it today, I taped her, she really thought she was crossing over but when she saw the playback, she tried harder to get it to cross over. She can do it picking up the foot though but coach wants her to cut over, I can't remember the term.

[dbny]

Thanks
She actually was working on it today, I taped her, she really thought she was crossing over but when she saw the playback, she tried harder to get it to cross over. She can do it picking up the foot though but coach wants her to cut over, I can't remember the term.

I don't think I've heard a term for that. I call it a "pull under" style crossover. Both styles are valid, but you will see at the high levels that picking up the foot only happens at the very end of the under push ("pull under"). OK, now that I wrote that, is it "under push" you are thinking of?

[falen]

On her good side, it almost looks as if the right foot never leaves the ice and she is quite fast and builds up some speed. It was cut something, under cut? cross cut? On the other side she lifts the left foot over the right. So it's kind of like side stepping. If she tries to do it like her good side, it never crosses over like it does on her good side, just looks like a really big half pump.

[Schmeck]

That means she's not putting her weight as much as she needs to on one of her edges - can't picture it right now (just getting over a migraine) but there's definitely some technique that's off.

If her coach isn't correcting this error, and is pushing for jumps, I'd start looking for a new coach! If it's something the skater does only during practice, then it's time to stop practicing that jump until the bad habit is corrected.

[Isk8NYC]

To answer the original question, it's not a great idea to do opposite-side crossovers into a waltz jump entry edge. The skater's actually doing a choctaw (change of edge/direction) when changing from the BI edge of the crossovers to the FO edge of the waltz jump. There's no benefit to the check required or the loss of speed/momentum that results. I'd also worry about a face plant with that move, plus I think it might develop bad habits for the spin entry later on such as not stepping onto a clean edge. That's why the CW back crossovers are the lead-in move: it's to build up speed and allow the skater to step from a fast, secure back outside edge to a fast, secure forward outside entry edge. Staying on the outside edges transfers the momentum to the entry.

I agree with the others that said to fix the real problem of her weak-side crossovers.

I've seen a few beginning skaters who do a wierd "cross under" move, but I don't think that's what you're seeing. In that move, the skater uses the INSIDE foot to do all the work, drawing it across and behind the OUTSIDE foot to fake a crossover. The outside foot just rides the circle. This sounds like your DD is starting the c-cut/draw-over but never finishing it. Instead, she's using the inside foot to fake the crossover.

This problem is caused by incorrect edging and balance, as Schmeck pointed out. She's probably keeping her weight on that forward foot instead of the back one, which allows her edges to drift onto flats.

In addition, a lot of lower-level skaters release the shoulders from the checked position, causing their upper body and hips to rotate. Most of them turn forwards or click their blades when trying to do back crossovers. They just can't stay backwards because their entire body above their feet is turning, so they have to follow or fall. I've found that a Champion Cord on both wrists with the instructions to "keep the cord inside the circle" helps.

The other issue is that the skater just doesn't *get it* about doing the backward c-cut push with the outside foot AHEAD of the inside foot. The uneven feet are just baffling to them. I teach my students to keep the inside foot on a circle, then literally DRAW a question mark with their outside foot while keeping their weight on that inside foot's edge. The push is in front, out to the side, then across to the other side on the inside edge. (I tell them to draw it "in the mirror" for CCW crossovers.) If need be, I sketch the figure on the ice with a marker and have them try it near the wall or with my spotting them.

One of the correction drills is to do the "ISI back crossovers" where the skater has to push with the outside foot, lift it up and over the skating foot, then place it on the ice to shift weight and allow the inside foot to do the underpush. You say she can do that, so I do think it's a question of not keeping the feet uneven at the right times and carrying the weight properly on the inside foot.

I think the coach should review crossovers with her for a few lessons. It's really critical to do these correctly instead of allowing her to continue to fake them.

[phoenix]

If it's something the skater does only during practice, then it's time to stop practicing that jump until the bad habit is corrected.

YES! Great case in point (a bit OT, but I need to vent :) ): I have a student who just landed her axel about a month ago. I share her w/ another coach (jump specialist). When she started landing it pretty consistently in her lessons, we said she was allowed to do 10 on her own. We feared she wouldn't listen, and we were right--she did them endlessly (I caught her a few times & put a stop to it, but I'm not always there when she is). In 1 week her axel was destroyed--now she's lucky to land one shaky one on any given day, and she's terribly discouraged and upset about it. If only she had listened and respected what we told her, I truly don't think she would have lost it.

[Skate@Delaware]

This problem is caused by incorrect edging and balance, as Schmeck pointed out. She's probably keeping her weight on that forward foot instead of the back one, which allows her edges to drift onto flats.

In addition, a lot of lower-level skaters release the shoulders from the checked position, causing their upper body and hips to rotate. Most of them turn forwards or click their blades when trying to do back crossovers. They just can't stay backwards because their entire body above their feet is turning, so they have to follow or fall. I've found that a Champion Cord on both wrists with the instructions to "keep the cord inside the circle" helps.

The other issue is that the skater just doesn't *get it* about doing the backward c-cut push with the outside foot AHEAD of the inside foot. The uneven feet are just baffling to them. I teach my students to keep the inside foot on a circle, then literally DRAW a question mark with their outside foot while keeping their weight on that inside foot's edge. The push is in front, out to the side, then across to the other side on the inside edge. (I tell them to draw it "in the mirror" for CCW crossovers.) If need be, I sketch the figure on the ice with a marker and have them try it near the wall or with my spotting them.

One of the correction drills is to do the "ISI back crossovers" where the skater has to push with the outside foot, lift it up and over the skating foot, then place it on the ice to shift weight and allow the inside foot to do the underpush. You say she can do that, so I do think it's a question of not keeping the feet uneven at the right times and carrying the weight properly on the inside foot.

I think the coach should review crossovers with her for a few lessons. It's really critical to do these correctly instead of allowing her to continue to fake them.
I agree-fix the problem crossovers before they become a bad habit. Doing the above drills will help, in addition to working on back edges. I did these when I was recuperating from my back surgery-my CW crossovers were so weak I kept falling over. Shifting the weight is important and if she has balance issues or insecurity of her edges she will have more problems.

She can also do some weight-shifting exercises off ice which might help her. And someone once suggested going up stairs sideways (then you are forced to be on one foot). My husband did this when he was learning crossovers.

[falen]

Thanks everyone!

I really appreciate the input. Since I don't skate well, it's really hard for me to help her. She practices and all I can say is it either looks right to me or doesn't. If it doesn't I really don't know why, so she just practices how she thinks it should be, sometimes its right, sometimes she has to relearn it. Its not like the coach canbe there every time.