How far could one progress, theoretically, without a coach/lessons?

[ktm]

Assuming that this person has no intention of competing or coaching in the future, and wants to learn to do various spins/moves simply for the sheer love of skating, how far could they go without any formal type of coaching?

Have you ever heard of anyone taking this approach to learning how to skate?

I was browsing the internet earlier, and there is such a wealth of skating information that I feel that, nowadays, it might be possible to go very far.

[GoSveta]

I wouldn't do it because bad habits are hard to break.

If you know quite a bit about skating and have an eye for detail (and a decent video camera with someone willing to tape your practice sessions), then you can do well enough.

However, some issues may seem obvious when there is an underlying issue that can fix a myriad of things when attended to. Coaches have usually seen these sorts of things, and know how to deal with it. Also, a coach can help you organize your practices.

I see the cost benefit of doing this (though hardly any rinks will allow you to skate on their Freestyles without a Coach, or being in their L2Skate program at or above a certain level), but it's not practical.

Personally, I think it's downright dangerous when looking ahead to jumps, footwork, and spins.

Rinks around here tend to homogenize their teaching practices. They have meetings and make sure everyone teaches everything the same way (which is quite frustrating for me). If they see you doing something in a way that doesn't agree with them, they may take issue for it (especially since lots of youngins love to imitate the older skaters, and may try to copy it in their lessons). In some cases the coaches may be crazies and think you were coaching their students on a public session or something.

IOW: It's not worth the trouble.

I do coach myself, quite a bit, but I also take private lessons. I need to move to an area where male figure skating coaches actually exist.

[Pandora]

Well....
Of course, I'm partial to skating without a coach. ;)

If you aren't interested in competing or teaching than I do think you can coach yourself. I am a mid-level skater (Gold) and coach myself. You do need to watch higher level skaters (preferably in person, if necessary on video) in order to observe their technique so that you can improve. Keep a notebook and make notes of what "works." I carry mine on ice and leave it by the boards. (I make several notes on various items each practice session and go over them at night, sometimes while observing a video of a pro skater doing the same item.) If you are lucky, maybe you can make friends with a higher level skater who can give you some pointers. (There are plenty on youtube. I am 123firefly321. Feel free to message me anytime.) :)

In addition to beginners, there are a few elite skaters who have coached themselves. Gary Beacom (I LOVE this guy!!!). :bow: http://<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wA1FeuIC4YA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wA1FeuIC4YA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> (http://www.youtube.com/v/wA1FeuIC4YA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>) If you listen to the commentary, Toller Cranston and Dick Button mention that he skates without a coach.

Here is his wickpedia. His bio says in the later part of his amateur career, he coached himself. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Beacom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Beacom)

[sk8joyful]

If you know quite a bit about skating and have an eye for detail
(and a decent video camera with someone willing to tape your practice sessions), then you can do well enough.

I wouldn't do it because bad habits are hard to break.

IOW: It's not worth the trouble.

what was that about habits, that went from bad, to worse, to now nigh 8O impossible to break; oh like
looking down, instead of UP per 1 coach:
"The ice is always in the same place, as are audience eyes, lol"
and
Pitching-forward (I've noticed 2 other skaters did this really bad,
such when they started jumping..., no way could they do it, let alone well). -

Not there yet, but coach mentioned: "Your balance is utterly amazing! - just when it seems you're gonna fly over your picks, you manage to right :) yourself."

BAD ice habits can kill you, so AVOID them at all costs!!
.

[Clarice]

I have never heard of any successful competitive skaters who taught themselves how to skate. Take that for what it's worth.

Gary Beacom would have had a coach for years when he was beginning. He would have had to do figures, as well. So the fact that he was self-coached at the end of his career doesn't really mean the same thing.

You may be able to teach yourself some things - I can't really say how far you would be able to go. But I do believe that you can go farther faster with the help of a good coach.

[Pandora]

The poster said he/she doesn't want to be a competitive skater, so I think he/she just wants to skate recreationally. :)

Yes, I agree, it is very hard to be a competitive skater (even on a local level) without a coach.

KTM,
Remember to take notes and review them.
Watch high level skaters do the items you want to do, (in person or on video). If possible, try to watch yourself on video and compare your item to the "correct" one to see where you differ.
And start at the beginning. (Uprights before camel spins, single jumps before axels etc.);)

[Isk8NYC]

Pandora - you brought up Gary Beacom as a role model for self-coaching and Clarice was addressing that for you.

Just to set the record straight: Gary Beacom was coached and instructed for over 25 years before he went without a coach for his appearance at the 1984 Olympics. While he was a fantastic skater, his choreography, and music choices were out of step, and his Compulsory Figures scores were poor, putting him out of contention for a medal from the beginning of the competition. He really would have done better at the Olympics had he been coached by a professional. A coach would have corrected his figures during practices (also a victim of budget cuts) and advised him on his music/choreography approaches to meet the judges' expectations. He's really not the role model for self-coaching that he's being touted as in this thread.

While it's been played up that he was a starving college student, I have to wonder why he really couldn't afford a coach. Considering no coaches have him listed as a student, and he didn't receive any financial support in his last years as an amateur, I think it's a safe bet that his attitude was the real cause of his going coachless. Toller Cranston was in the same boat: great skater, wrong time. They both would have done well with their programs had they skated during a later era.

There's a major difference between a coach and an instructor. An instructor teaches the proper technique and corrects mistakes before they become bad habits. The instructor KNOWS the correct way and what it feels like to do it correctly. A book or video can't look at you and say "Hey, your free leg isn't in the right position, let's do these five drills to fix your sit spin."

A coach is also an instructor, but also advises the skater on how to perform something with flair and strength, tying together the skater's style with appropriate music and choreography, helping them to achieve their goals and prepare for upcoming events like shows, tests, and competitions. They train the skater to improve and coach them into the right state of mind for skating. The coach generally accompanies the skater to those events and helps them prepare both mentally and physically to do their best. When the student achieves, so does the coach.

If you're never planning on doing anything more than noodling around at a public session, be my guest. But don't insult instructors or coaches by thinking a video camera can replace their experience, knowledge and education.

[Pandora]

Do you really think so? Granted, I am only speaking from my own experience. And, granted, 2 of the 3 coaches I am remembering as I write this were from "roller" not ice...But I generally found that I progressed from my own practice and analyzing my own skating far more than I was helped by any of my coaches (one of whom yelled, yes yelled, into my face as a matter of course during my lessons!! He also occasionally swore at me). If anything, their instructions were not helpful or just, in many cases, simply wrong in addition to being rude. And I paid $ for this!!8O Seriously. But, as I said, this is only my own experience. I don't mean to insult all coaches or imply that none of them know how to teach....but this is really, truely what I have found in my own skating. It is simply an honest observation. Take it for what it is worth. :giveup:

[Isk8NYC]

Do you really think so? Yes, I do think so and you know from bringing up this subject in the past that most skaters agree that instruction and coaching is vital to progressing in figure skating. Since the OP wants to just have fun, she should just go for it!

Speaking from experience, expect to relearn many things if you ever decide to take it to the next level.
It's very difficult to "unlearn" bad habits.

However, the practice notebook and review are a great way to improve your own skating. It's not as effective as having a teacher make the correction immediately, especially if you don't know what a real camel (for example) feels like when done correctly.

But I generally found that I progressed from my own practice and analyzing my own skating far more than I was helped by any of my coaches (some of whom yelled, yes yelled, into my face as a matter of course during my lessons!! He also occasionally swore at me). If anything, their instructions were not helpful or just, in many cases, simply wrong in addition to being rude. And I paid $ for this!!8O
I'm sorry you went through that, but you shouldn't hold the flaws of a few against an entire group of people.
Most of your "I can and will self-coach" posts sound like you have a chip on your shoulder towards coaches in general as a result of your childhood traumas. The only thing you can do is find a way to get past that trauma. Good luck with that.

I have NEVER yelled in the face of a student and I can count on two hands the number of coaches I've witnessed doing that, most of whom weren't from the US.

[Pandora]

I'm glad to hear that you treat your students with respect. :) The same coach that yelled at me also told me a was a "fat pig" and that is why I couldn't rotate the triples. (Of course I ended up with an eating disorder. :roll: Thank god, my mother caught it early and got me some help.)

I will continue to disagree with you about the need for coaches (especially for a rec skater), but I do think we can agree that "bad" coaches can do a lot of damage (and not only to skating skills.) Of course, as you pointed out, (and I agree), not all coaches are "bad" coaches....:giveup:

[GoSveta]

Around here the following things are prohibited in public sessions:

- Jumping
- Camel Spins and others that involve your skate dangling out there
- Spirals and Attitudes
- Practicing Programs

As far as freestyle sessions:

- No one is allowed to skate on a freestyle sessions unless they are in Learn-to-Skate at Basic 5 or higher, or accompanied by a coach.
- The first time you attend a Free Skate Session, you must be accompanied by a coach, who will go over all the rules, etc. with you.

So even if you were a phenom (recreational or otherwise), it would be excessively difficult to actually coach yourself. No one wants to work on [just] 3-turns for weeks-months-years.

[Pandora]

Guess it depends on the rink....

Out here we run the gamut. One rink is as you said. No freestyle....at all.:cry:

One rink is "ify." It depends on how many skaters are there. I have done camels and flying sits and doubles in the middle without getting spoken to.

One rink is "anything goes." Figure skaters have pretty much taken it over and operator allows it. :D

So that is a good point. KTM will definitely have to check on what his/her rink allows and follow the rules accordingly.

[drskater]

Assuming that this person has no intention of competing or coaching in the future, and wants to learn to do various spins/moves simply for the sheer love of skating, how far could they go without any formal type of coaching?

Have you ever heard of anyone taking this approach to learning how to skate?

I was browsing the internet earlier, and there is such a wealth of skating information that I feel that, nowadays, it might be possible to go very far.

I don't want to sound unkind but no, people can't teach themselves to figure skate. Even recreational skaters who may hit the ice 1-2 times a year and who can move around the rink cannot really stroke properly, let alone do crossovers and skate backwards. Most don't even bend their knees. Yes, there's lots of info on the internet, but it is not always reliable. What do you mean by going far? All the beginning moves set up the more advanced skills. Good luck jumping or spinning without knowing how to do three-turns or mohawks. I've seen and known people who think they can teach themselves to do spins and jumps and it's just not happening. These are usually people who do not wish to work on basics and think they can skip ahead to the "cool" freestyle elements. I remember one young lady who claimed to be working on her "camel," but who couldn't manage a forward outside edge. Everything, and I mean e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g in figure skating is a LEARNED skill.

[Ellyn]

I think it depends.

If you want to develop your skating as far as you can, given whatever physical, time, and financial limitations you have to work with, you'll be able to achieve more with a good coach that you click with than without one. Yes, it will be more cost effective in the long run.

A bad coach might be a waste of time and money. Or one you just don't get along with, even if s/he is a good coach for someone else.

If you don't want to be a good skater and don't enjoy learning tried-and-true techniques, but do enjoy figuring things out for yourself, you might prefer to spend your time reinventing the wheel. That's how the sport was invented in the first place.

But there are already approximately two centuries worth of collective knowledge about the best ways to make skating blades move in various ways, what works and what doesn't. A good coach can share that knowledge. On your own, you'd need to figure most of it out for yourself.

If you're not especially gifted at figuring out the biomechanics of movement, you'd be setting yourself up for frustration.

And even if that is your biggest interest in the sport, you could achieve so much more by learning the standard basics and then playing around with them to see what else beyond the standard moves and techniques might be possible for you to do on the ice. That's what Gary Beacom did.

[icedancer2]

Put me in the camp of those who think you cannot learn to figure skate on your own, no matter how hard you try (of course the OP did state "if you know something about skating" so I don't know if that means having had some lessons or... ????)

However, I have met ONE person in my 50+ years of skating who actually taught herself to skate and quite well, actually, on rental skates!! She was a teenager at one of my rinks - once she started getting coaches she moved up to doing double jumps, beautiful spins and I think Intermediate Moves within a year. This person made her coach totally re-think what was possible for someone to learn and execute without actual coaching instruction. It was quite incredible -

So yes, it can be done. But mostly not done very well at all as most on this thread will agree.

[kayskate]

I can share my personal exp.
I took LTS as a kid. Don't recall for how long. it was in the mid 70s. I grew up on roller skates. When my parents discontinued the lessons, I continued to skate on quads throughout my childhood. I learned to do several spins: sit, scratch, camel, illusion. I never learned those skills in LTS. I could do xovers back and forward but only well in 1 direction. i also learned waltz jump, salchow and Ina bauer.

Here's the caveat. No one pushed me to skate in both directions. While i could do a lot on quads, it was not balanced. This translated into xovers on ice whenever I had a chance, also in only 1 direction.

When I got into ice skating private lessons in my 20s, I had to work hard w a coach to correct my directional deficiencies. However, I learned spins very quickly. Jumps lagged. In fact, I could do a flying camel before a flip.

I have been coaching since 2004. Most ppl do not progress to the level I did, even w its deficiencies, on their own. Ppl who skate publics have bad habits. They don't bend their knees, they scratch toe picks, don't bring feet together, wide step, etc. Not to say I did not do these things too. However, learning on quads eliminated the toe pick prob. I had no toe pick to help me move. I had to turn my feet out to stroke.

Sounds like Pandora did have instruction, even if the coach was not the right one for her. W that foundation, maybe she is in a position to build on what she has learned. I have also done this, but it was after yrs of training and exp.

Kay

[GoSveta]

Visit my figure skating journal
http://www.skatejournal.com/
Lol. Wow. I didn't know that was yours and you posted here.

Thanks for making that site!

[Query]

Many people can learn to skate quite comfortably and efficiently on their own with sufficient practice. But figure skating is a form of dance, and as such, has non-obvious stylistic elements often unrelated or even opposite those required to move comfortably and efficiently.

Of course, private lessons are the best. But some people go pretty far with group lessons, especially if they find instructors whose teaching style meshes with their learning style. Group lessons are much less expensive than privates. If you can take a class with others of approximately the same age, it is also fun.

Some people are comfortable approaching other good (but non-professional) skaters and asking for help and suggestions. That might help.

There can also be periods of time when lessons aren't needed. I have come to the conclusion that my most serious problem is a lack of athletic training - specifically, off-ice strength and endurance training, and that lessons were no longer helping. So I am working on conditioning instead of taking lessons.

[Kat12]

I know how essential an instructor is for me after having mine point out things I'm doing wrong without realizing it--either I don't know I'm doing it incorrectly, or I know something is wrong and it takes someone else watching me to tell me why it is I'm not "getting" it.

I'd never go any longer than I have to without instruction, at least not while I wish to continue learning new things.

[Ellyn]

Many people can learn to skate quite comfortably and efficiently on their own with sufficient practice. But figure skating is a form of dance, and as such, has non-obvious stylistic elements often unrelated or even opposite those required to move comfortably and efficiently.

Even just looking at the technical aspects and moving efficiently . . .

Without in-person instruction from a knowledgeable instructor who can tell you tried and true techniques for achieving various moves, it would be very inefficient to try to figure them out only by trial and error.

Only someone who is very analytical about biomechanics could figure it all out from scratch. It took a couple of centuries for the the sport to develop the existing knowledge base -- one person can't get very far at rediscovering all that knowledge from scratch in one lifetime.

Watching more advanced skaters will help, but it won't always be obvious from watching when they're using techniques you can copy as a beginner to that skill and and when they're using variations that would make things more difficult for you to learn the basic skill.

It also won't always be obvious which muscles they're engaging and which they're relaxing. That's knowledge that's best learned from an in-person instructor.

Somewhere in between would be using an instructional book or video that breaks down the techniques for you. It won't be able to correct your errors, but it will give you a more focused plan for how to develop skills than just you playing around by trial and error.

[fsk8r]

Only someone who is very analytical about biomechanics could figure it all out from scratch. It took a couple of centuries for the the sport to develop the existing knowledge base -- one person can't get very far at rediscovering all that knowledge from scratch in one lifetime.


For a long time they didn't believe it was possible to do rocker and counter turns. It took someone to speculate that they were possible for people to start thinking about how you would do them and start playing around.

But even back in the Victorian era when they were discovering rockers and counters most people learnt from other people teaching them.

[icestalker]

A lot of people start out teaching themselves camel spins and such, and they have no three turn and mostly slide around in a circle.

But if somebody knew what edges/three turns were, and watched online videos, they could probably teach themselves up to Basic 8. I don't think it's a good idea though. What I hate the most is when these skaters enter lessons and think they can skip Basic 1-4, or even all the basics, when in fact they have to start over in Basic 1.

The only thing I've ever taught myself was a spiral, because I saw other skaters in my lesson doing them, and my coach noticed me going around with my leg stuck in the air and she came over and helped me on my position.

I've been tempted to teach myself a camel spin.. but I'm too afraid of falling on my face and not being able to skate for a while!

[dbny]

I have seen and know quite a few very talented self-taught skaters. Many of them can do some pretty nice jumps and spins. Every one of them has deficits in technique that are preventing them from progressing beyond what they have achieved on their own. One adult friend who up to now has been entirely self taught has all the single jumps inconsistently, a scratch spin that travels to China and a backspin on the inside edge. Her FXO's in both directions have serious and obvious toe pushing on the under push. I've been giving her tips here and there and she finally decided to take some lessons (got the money as a Christmas gift, as money was an issue.) She's into about her 6th week of trying to fix her backspin, and is now starting to get the outside edge. It's also about 5 or 6 weeks of fixing her scratch spin entrance to prevent traveling. She has had to bring those spins back to the very beginning and I applaud her determination and patience.

I urge you to take as many lessons as you can. Don't just sign on with a coach. Watch different coaches at work first to see which ones might suit you best. When you approach a coach, suggest a trial lesson or two, which gives you an easy way out if you don't work well together. You will progress faster and without developing bad habits. You will enjoy your skating more with proper instruction.

[Sessy]

VERY inadvisable.

However, to answer your question, I skated a lot of public sessions (we only have lessons or publics at my rink, no freestyle sessions) and I have seen a girl get a biellman spiral (the girl was in the circus and very, very athletic and flexible though and her balance was superb, but she hadn't had a skating lesson in her life), and in an other instance a toeloop, a salchow and a 1-foot-spin without any coaching (the particular girl was studying to become a sports teacher and simply didn't have the time for lessons, but she was doing a gazillion other sports - eventually she got stuck on the 1-foot-spin and I convinced her to join a skating club).

I have never seen anything beyond that. I reckon someone who previously did receive formal education in other sports will go much further than someone who was never very athletic.

[GoSveta]

Even just looking at the technical aspects and moving efficiently . . .

Without in-person instruction from a knowledgeable instructor who can tell you tried and true techniques for achieving various moves, it would be very inefficient to try to figure them out only by trial and error.

Only someone who is very analytical about biomechanics could figure it all out from scratch. It took a couple of centuries for the the sport to develop the existing knowledge base -- one person can't get very far at rediscovering all that knowledge from scratch in one lifetime.

Watching more advanced skaters will help, but it won't always be obvious from watching when they're using techniques you can copy as a beginner to that skill and and when they're using variations that would make things more difficult for you to learn the basic skill.

It also won't always be obvious which muscles they're engaging and which they're relaxing. That's knowledge that's best learned from an in-person instructor.

Somewhere in between would be using an instructional book or video that breaks down the techniques for you. It won't be able to correct your errors, but it will give you a more focused plan for how to develop skills than just you playing around by trial and error.
An analytical teen-adult with video/book instruction and a means of doing video analysis (webcam and a netbook, for instance) and record themselves and see where they're going wrong.

I personally think Learn-to-Skate is a waste of time and money. That's just my opinion. I guess if you're that lucky person that gets to hog the instructor's time and effort it can be very effective, though.

[Ellyn]

An analytical teen-adult with video/book instruction and a means of doing video analysis (webcam and a netbook, for instance) and record themselves and see where they're going wrong.

Yes, if you have access to good instructional materials and good self-monitoring technology, and you have the kind of learning style that does best with analyzing things for yourself and the kind of discipline to practice skills introduced in the book/video even if you don't see the relevance yourself at first.

If that describe you and your resources, you may get further on your own than with a group class.

As for how far . . . I saw some young men 10-15 years ago who were trying to teach themselves to figure skate based on what they saw on TV. They tended to run into trouble when they got to learning the salchow because they didn't understand about checking rotation -- they could see the flashy tricks and try to learn them, but they didn't know what basics they needed to learn to support the tricks.

If you really are diligent about practicing all your edges and forward turns, in both directions, as introduced in the instructional materials, maybe you could get further than that on your own. Most people couldn't, but if you can, more power to you.

[Sessy]

Sveta, am I correct in assuming from your nickname that you might speak Russian? If so, check out http://skateclass.ru/

[icestalker]

I personally think Learn-to-Skate is a waste of time and money. That's just my opinion. I guess if you're that lucky person that gets to hog the instructor's time and effort it can be very effective, though.

A lot of rinks have overcrowded, understaffed LTS classes. Or the coaches don't know how to handle a group, or the group for one level is much too big and should've been split up in the first place. None of the coaches at my rink let one person monopolize attention. They can and will put bratty kids in time out in the hockey box. No skater goes more than, say, six or seven minutes without getting individual attention on their spin/footwork/whatever. However, not all rinks have such good coaches.

My rink has a very good LTS system. My Thurs lesson, there is two advanced instructors and a handful of college instructors. All of the classes in the lower basic levels are evenly split up among the college instructors, the Basic 6-8 or so are given to one advanced coach, and my class- Freeskate 1-6 and above- is given to the other coach. This way all the groups never have more than about eight kids.
My Sat class is split up the same, but the Freeskate 3-4 jump class is HUGE, but two or three instructors are given that group, so they are basically co-coaching the group. Because of rink size it works out better that way rather than to split up the group to two or three different instructors.

They also have the same lesson on different days. For a Basic 1-8 group lesson, there is a Tuesday lesson and a Saturday lesson, for example. However some rinks force skaters to all crowd in one lesson, simply because that rink does not place importance on Learn-to-skate or they just don't like figure skaters in the first place and would rather use the ice for hockey. My rink has two rinks though so this is never a problem. They pretty much have back to back freestyle ice from early morning to early evening, and the other rink is used for group, hockey and public. Hockey games are done in the third rink which is the main rink with grandstands and concession stands.

I think LTS is one of the best deals in figure skating, one of the most affordable and many rinks will give you a public skate card along with the class. This encourages the skaters to practice on their own so they can advance up to the next level in their group lesson. But there are tons of rinks that have no limit on the skaters who can join and they don't organize their lessons correctly, or they just can't get enough coaches to come and teach the lesson. Those are the rinks where LTS is a waste of time and money.

A recreational skater that wants to learn how to spin and jump really should take LTS classes.

[Sessy]

In group class you DO have to be a little pro-active about getting help on your skating, yes. If you never ask for help you're probably not going to get any, or if you only practice the stuff you can do or stick to the boardings never attempting what you can't do or tell the coach you're "fine" if they ever manage to ask... At least that's the way my group classes have always worked. You do have to go out and ask for help and you have to be assertive to basically get your own share of attention from the coach... Nothing wrong with those character qualities, btw, they serve you well in school and in life in general.

[sk8tmum]

Compare it to school ...

a) if you can afford a one-on-one tutor: you're going to get extra help and may learn faster. It can't bump your innate ability to learn/comprehend the subject matter, but, you can get help that is targetted to you and immediately.

b) if you are in a classroom: you have to share the teacher. If you work hard, do your homework, ask questions (i.e. go to see the teacher) and show enthusiasm, you'll likely do better than if you don't work, don't do homework, and refuse to ask for help. That 2 minute quick check in with the teacher at the end, if you can and the teacher is willing, can help out too on specific problems. And, yes, you will find teachers who do not suit your learning style and how are simply not good at teaching ... you can't control for that factor, except perhaps for changing classes or seeking out others who are better/more suited to you.

c) If you are stuck with no teacher and no tutor, you have to do it all on your own. With no feedback. For mechanical things like numerical or calculation math, you can come to a "right answer" and know you are right based on an answer key. For subjective subjects or topics that don't have a "right answer" or something you can compare exactly (say, Art, English, History, Philosophy, Science on many levels, analytical math where you need to do application) - you can't be sure if you are at standard, but, you can guess by looking at other's work. If you know you are looking at work that is the right work to look at ... and can learn and improve from that. But, it's slower, more prone to misconceptions, and you may end up being egregiously wrong on something and have to go back and redo it and relearn it later - if you even recognize your error without specific feedback.

I am sure, and I know they exist, that there are people who are so intellectually exceptional that they can entirely self-learn. However, they are rare, unique, and the exception. The general world needs assistance. Also, in terms of innate talent: maybe the "geniuses" can learn to X-level by themselves ... but, did they lose out on reaching "X+10" level by not having any instruction? An interesting philosophical debate ...

[Query]

I think the best skating group lessons I have had were not LTS lessons, but were in areas where the teacher had more freedom to teach what they wanted, and to adapt to students' needs. But even so, LTS classes can teach a lot, and what they cover is required before the more advanced group lessons.

It also helps when the classes are small - say, 5 or fewer.

I even had one coach who might have been better in group lessons than in privates. Teaching group lessons sometimes convinced said coach to try to explain things, instead of just demonstrating.

If you can't afford lessons, you can still have a lot of fun skating. And if you learn well from books and videos and on-line, and you feel comfortable asking questions of other good skaters (how can I make this better?), you might be able to go fairly far.

But not to be a top competitor.

Fort Dupont Ice Arena (Washington, DC) used to have an inspirational poster on the wall about a black U.S. figure skater (I can't remember her name - might have been Mabel Fairbanks (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=12118381)) who became good enough to tour in shows, yet who had little formal background in skating. She became homeless (probably before she toured), to have enough money to skate. But she made a point of skating where some of the top skaters of her day skated, and they gave her informal lessons. So it's possible to go quite far - but not normal. (I'm also not sure how much of that poster was accurate. If it is Mabel, you can find contradictory information sources.)

AFAIK, there aren't any really good books/DVDs on skating that are meant to be fully self-contained. Oglevie's book (http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Skating-Skills-Robert-Ogilvie/dp/0397005199/ref=sid_dp_dp) came close, but didn't have enough pictures to be completely self-explanatory, and is out of date in terms of style and moves.