Judging at the 6.0 levels...

[momof3chicks]

perplexes me....sometimes it seems like they are looking for a nice clean smooth skate, and other times, it seems like they are rewarding tries at things the kids cannot really do. My dd did a beautiful preliminary program this weekend, clean, with two double sals (one in combination with a loop jump), one simple spin, one more high level combination, no travel, lots of revolutions, good power and speed. Most of her competitors tried other doubles, but fell...and placements were all over the place- my dd got one last, one first and one in the middle!!

WHAT are they looking for exactly?

[Clarice]

You'll never really know, since it depends on the particular panel. Teach her to focus on how she skated, not the placement, or it will make you both crazy.

[momof3chicks]

You'll never really know, since it depends on the particular panel. Teach her to focus on how she skated, not the placement, or it will make you both crazy.

Oh, she did, and was perfectly ok with it...just wondering if I was missing something!! :)

[phoenix]

From what I've seen, marking at the lower levels does tend to be all over the place & varies widely from competition to competition. I have a pre-pre girl who competed recently. Did much harder footwork, has nice big jumps, and held her spins longer than anyone else. But, skated slower & looks less polished than most of them. She was 6th out of 7. The competition a month before, same program, she won.

I've been thinking of talking to a local judge just to get her opinion of what the judges really want to see/what they give more weight to at these levels. I wonder if you'd get 5 different answers if you asked 5 different judges.

[Isk8NYC]

I think speed weighs a great deal on the judging at the lower levels.

That's just my impression from looking at several events recently where the skaters were well-matched, but the slower skaters really gave the impression of being less confident or not having mastered the maneuvers. In a few cases, I was surprised in the Basic Skills events by the results that put the slowest skaters last even though their elements looked just as correct.

I've been including power skating in each skating lesson to build speed and strength for all my private students who can't/won't attend the group power skating class.

[momof3chicks]

I think speed weighs a great deal on the judging at the lower levels.

That's just my impression from looking at several events recently where the skaters were well-matched, but the slower skaters really gave the impression of being less confident or not having mastered the maneuvers. In a few cases, I was surprised in the Basic Skills events by the results that put the slowest skaters last even though their elements looked just as correct.

I've been including power skating in each skating lesson to build speed and strength for all my private students who can't/won't attend the group power skating class.

Well, I would think that too, but my 9 yo is very fast and confident in her skating, so that wasn't it- at least THIS time- LOL!! I think whomever said if they asked 5 judges they'd get 5 different answers is probably on the mark!

[dreamnmusic]

Sorry to barge in on your thread, but I've noticed the phrase "dd" a lot. And I can't figure out what it stands for :lol: So far I've got:

Darling Daughter
Dashing Darcey
Dark Dancer
Delightful Dancer

And lots of others but mostly I just started putting d words together. What does it stand for?

[sk8tmum]

Ask your coach about the placement. The coach saw the skate and the other skaters, likely; the coach can tell you best how your skater "compared" to the other skaters. The coach can also likely give you guidance on what was marked well or poorly. You might not have seen URs or cheats or missing revs from your angle of vision (if that happened to your or another skater); you might see speed, but, not see whether the skater was skating on her edges as opposed to the flats of the skates. There are a host of aspects to judging a skate ... it's hard to be a judge and do it well, which is why there aren't lots of people doing it - or qualifying to do it.

[sk8tmum]

Sorry to barge in on your thread, but I've noticed the phrase "dd" a lot. And I can't figure out what it stands for :lol: So far I've got:

Darling Daughter
Dashing Darcey
Dark Dancer
Delightful Dancer

And lots of others but mostly I just started putting d words together. What does it stand for?
DD = darling daughter,
DS = darling son
DH = Darling husband.

sometimes, substitute Dear for Husband. AFAIK, that's normal translations ... :)

(AFAIK: As far as I know ... that one drove me nuts for years!)

[dreamnmusic]

DD = darling daughter,
DS = darling son
DH = Darling husband.

sometimes, substitute Dear for Husband. AFAIK, that's normal translations ... :)

(AFAIK: As far as I know ... that one drove me nuts for years!)

Ah! Thank you! :bow: You have solved my questioning. And I was wondering about that AFAIK I thought it was a company name :?? I'm not good at this online lingo. Which is weird. Because I'm 19 and supposedly am supposed to be super awesome at it. :frus:

(Also, I love those face. They make my day better :D)

[momof3chicks]

Ask your coach about the placement. The coach saw the skate and the other skaters, likely; the coach can tell you best how your skater "compared" to the other skaters. The coach can also likely give you guidance on what was marked well or poorly. You might not have seen URs or cheats or missing revs from your angle of vision (if that happened to your or another skater); you might see speed, but, not see whether the skater was skating on her edges as opposed to the flats of the skates. There are a host of aspects to judging a skate ... it's hard to be a judge and do it well, which is why there aren't lots of people doing it - or qualifying to do it.

Her coach was pretty surprised this time too- especially in the inconsistency between the judges in the panel and wasn't really sure what to make of it. Oh well!!:D

[isakswings]

perplexes me....sometimes it seems like they are looking for a nice clean smooth skate, and other times, it seems like they are rewarding tries at things the kids cannot really do. My dd did a beautiful preliminary program this weekend, clean, with two double sals (one in combination with a loop jump), one simple spin, one more high level combination, no travel, lots of revolutions, good power and speed. Most of her competitors tried other doubles, but fell...and placements were all over the place- my dd got one last, one first and one in the middle!!

WHAT are they looking for exactly?

I don't know what it is they are loooking for all the time. I do agree about the speed thing and I think different judges look for different things! Recently, my daughter's club had 3 judges come and talk to us. We got to ask questions and they answered them. It was very helpful to hear what it is they look for and what they like to see. :) Maybe your dd's club could arrange something like that? I am sure you are not the only parent who walks away from the ordinals scratching your head! :) Anyway... good luck. I know you are proud of your daughter no matter what her placement is.

[momof3chicks]

Ah! Thank you! :bow: You have solved my questioning. And I was wondering about that AFAIK I thought it was a company name :?? I'm not good at this online lingo. Which is weird. Because I'm 19 and supposedly am supposed to be super awesome at it. :frus:

(Also, I love those face. They make my day better :D)

That is funny!:)

[momof3chicks]

I don't know what it is they are loooking for all the time. I do agree about the speed thing and I think different judges look for different things! Recently, my daughter's club had 3 judges come and talk to us. We got to ask questions and they answered them. It was very helpful to hear what it is they look for and what they like to see. :) Maybe your dd's club could arrange something like that? I am sure you are not the only parent who walks away from the ordinals scratching your head! :) Anyway... good luck. I know you are proud of your daughter no matter what her placement is.

That is a good idea, our club is starting to get more ramped up than in the past. I agree, she did an awesome job either way, landing all her jumps as if she wasn't NEW at them (you know that new look they have sometimes with things??)

[phoenix]

Ask your coach about the placement. The coach saw the skate and the other skaters, likely; the coach can tell you best how your skater "compared" to the other skaters. The coach can also likely give you guidance on what was marked well or poorly. You might not have seen URs or cheats or missing revs from your angle of vision (if that happened to your or another skater); you might see speed, but, not see whether the skater was skating on her edges as opposed to the flats of the skates. There are a host of aspects to judging a skate ... it's hard to be a judge and do it well, which is why there aren't lots of people doing it - or qualifying to do it.

FWIW (for what it's worth ;) ), my post was about my student, not my daughter. I still didn't agree w/ the placement. Sometimes we (coaches) do see things parents/spectators don't, but sometimes the judges see things that no one else sees, including the coaches! :lol:

[Schmeck]

Nonqual event placements are always wonky - depends on the club's choice of judges, etc.


Basically, I try to remember that the judges are all individuals, and so have individual ideas about placement in the 6.0 system. They have to decide placement, and one may appreciate strong, deep edges, another may go for speed, one may look more at upper body positioning, and how often the skater breaks at the waist, scrapes a toepick for crossovers, etc. They are also VOLUNTEERS!

As a mom, I have to remember that I'm no judge or coach, don't have the training for either, and to just shut up and let the coaches, judges, and skaters deal with the placement stuff. Learned that from a very wise mom at a synchro competition. Her daughter just got a world bronze medal as a member of the Haydenettes.

One thing you can do is track the judges/placements from competition to competition. There may be a judge that just loves your daughter's style of skating, and another who thinks it stinks. We know the judging trends of most of the local MITF test judges in this area - so my daughter could place emphasis on certain parts that she knew would please the judges.

[kssk8fan]

It's not just about the jumps nor is it just about the spins. It's the WHOLE program - especially in the 6.0 system. I've had it described this way....Take a picture of a horse - your responsibility is to color it in using crayons and any colors you want based on what's in the box. If you only color the eyes, it's not much of a picture - if you only color the tail, it's not really a good picture either....BUT....if you color it all in, with details and markings, and use various colors, it becomes a very good picture of a horse.

Same with a skating program! 9 times out of 10, you'll have a panel of judges that are focused on different things. They are also probably aware and maybe even judge the IJS, therefore, the combination of a difficult and challenging program combined with transitions, superior skating skills, decent choreography, etc.....(the program component scores) will speak volumes in a judges mind vs. a program filled with just good jumps and spins.


I'm sure your skater had the whole package - just trying to explain the judges viewpoints at the 6.0 level.

[cazzie]

We've had such similar stuff and my daughter really does seem to be able to divide judges! I'm working very hard trying to get my daughter to not worry so much about her scores as they are so unpredictable! (Being the perfectionist that she is this is hard work!)

Yesterday she did a competition although technical scores where more or less what both she and coaches were expecting she had unbelievably low artistic scores. Normally this is considered her strong point as she has very good edgework, grace, arms etc.

Coaches at the competition (sadly not her coach as taken there by another coach) comments were that she has deep knee bend and "rises and falls" and that she looks like an ice dancer doing free-skating and that perhaps this was being penalised! Who knows...

I do see judges writing down loads though and wish some of their comments would be shared with the skaters to use as a learning experience for them.

[Mrs Redboots]

but sometimes the judges see things that no one else sees, including the coaches! :lol:

And sometimes one judge sees things the others don't - I remember once at a dance competition one of my friends got a much lower ordinal from judge no 3 than from the others. So I asked if she knew what Judge no 3 had seen, and was told she'd skidded on bad ice in the corner, just where Judge no 3 could see her but nobody else could!

But the marks can be all over the place. I remember the judges on one panel getting terribly frustrated with themselves as they were all marking differently, and cheering themselves on the rare occasions they got the marks the same! We realised what was happening and egged them on (it was an adult competition!).

[Virtualsk8r]

I think the results under 6.0 really depend upon the training of the judges used on the panel. Any judge who also uses the ISU CoP system will take all components into consideration when judging under 6.0, which results in a much more balanced, overall mark for all skaters. However, having judged a lot under 6.0 in my former life.....I do know that some judges will place a skater they 'favor' or 'like' over a skater that actually can skate! Unfortunately, I have been on a panel where a skater who tried lots of jumps but UR them - but could suck her toes from behind and twist like a pretzel -- was given higher ordinals than the skater that actually landed clean jumps and nice spins but couldn't do a biellmann or a charlotte! Fortunately those biased judges are leaving the system as CoP is reaching its way down the ranks, and they don't want to be retrained. One of my own students - a national competitor - who lands clean double axels and triples - was beaten by a 'pretzel' who landed a badly cheated triple and badly cheated doubles (no double axel) - at a varsity competition! Everyone was left shaking their heads as these retired "out of touch" judges showed their lack of understanding for the sport. Next varsity competitition - all ISU/Olympic/national judges and guess what the result was?

Remember also - that 6.0 relies on OBO judging as well. Each skater is compared with the previous skater and the judge has to decide if the skater is better, equal or worse than the previous. That ranking - ordinals - decides where the skater places, not the mark as in IJS or CoP. So a skater that is given several first place ordinals by a few judges, but receives lower ordinals from the rest -- can end up below a skater who receives all 3rd place ordinals. And, in some cases the skater with the 3rd place or 4th place ordinals will win overall.

At least under the CoP system, a skater can see how close they were to winning...sometimes by .01...and sometimes the difference between first and 10th is just a decimal point, which makes the skater feel better about their skate. Instead of placing 10th - they can see that they were just one spin rotation from first, or one harder single jump (.3 waltz vs .5 loop, or .8 axel, or adding one combination toe/loop .4+.5).

[Skittl1321]

I think the book "Inside Edge" has a story of a judge that gave an elite skater a very high mark, while all the rest gave very low marks. 6.0 Judges are supposed to be "inline" with the others (which I think is a problem with that system in and of itself) so he was nervously wondering what he missed. After asking another judge it turns out the skater had run into a wall- right after he dropped his pencil, and had to look down.

You just never know what they will and won't see- which is why skaters used to be trained to come up from a fall in landing position, maybe the judge missed the fall (now the cameras will catch it for sure).

IMO, while there are definetly "rules"- 6.0 is a crap-shoot. You never know what the judge is looking for. Is a slow backspin on the proper edge better than a fast "backspin" on the wrong edge? Some judges prefer the skater just to be spinning, others want good technique.

I also think like VirtualSk8r said that CoP judges will take that system into account when scoring 6.0- which they really shouldn't be doing. But they are so trained to look for the CoP things that ends up being part of what they are looking for.

[blue111moon]

Marks all over the map are common especially at the lower levels where all of the skaters in a group are doing pretty much the same things. Different judges look for different things: some put more weight on power (which is not the same thing as speed), some on edging, some on control, some on the technical, some on the presentation.

The only way to know what a judge is looking for is to ask the judge. Most judges are more than willing to explain their placement. However, there's a proper procedure for this (as chair of my club's open for 16 years I know it well :) ):

1. You have to decide which judge you want to talk to - it's usually the one who was either way out line with the rest or who gave the lowest placement.

2 Get your coach and have them find either the competition chair or the event referee and ask politely if that judge will speak to you. Try to do this as soon after the event as you can, because if you wait too long the judge may have seen several other groups and forgotten who you are in the throng.

3. When the judge comes out, introduce skater and coach (it helps if the skater is still wearing the outfit she/he skated in) and explain that you're confused by the range of placements and would like to know what the skater can do to improve in that judge's eyes. Please note that the judge will only offer comments about you and not about your competitors and not about the other judges on the panel.

4. Listen politely to what the judge says (whether you agree or not) and thank them when they're done. Take notes. If nothing else, you're making a positive impression on the judge so that the next time they see you on the ice, they're thinking "Oh, yes, that's that nice girl from X."

Oh, and if by chance you run into a judge who doesn't want to talk to you, don't take it personally. Some judges just aren't comfortable talking to parents - they might be the type who immediately forgets a group as soon as they turn in their sheets or they've been screamed at by parents or coaches in the past and don't want to subject themselves to that again or they simply don't have time because of their schedule. After a while you get to know who will and who won't talk to you, and of those who will, whose advice is helpful and whose isn't.

Just remember that judges are people too. They don't all walk in lockstep just because they're judges.

[kssk8fan]

one thing to consider regarding marks all over the place is perhaps the skaters were very close and there wasn't a clear cut 1, 2, 3, etc...... Sometimes it's not a bad thing to have ordinals all over the place.

[Virtualsk8r]

I
I also think like VirtualSk8r said that CoP judges will take that system into account when scoring 6.0- which they really shouldn't be doing. But they are so trained to look for the CoP things that ends up being part of what they are looking for.

It has been my experience that judges who also use the CoP system are by far the most accurate and fairest of them all. They are accustomed to applying a set standard and being held accountable for their marks, especially those that judge at the qualifying level, because the skater will have a report card to see where they gained/lost marks. The whole process becomes automatic for them, as they are used to being under pressure and evaluating skaters very quickly for the PCS elements, and to look out for good technique plus clean landings etc.

I groan when I look at a panel of 6.0 judges - and see the judges I know have't kept up with the rules and are biased, because they are out there. The only saving grace is to see well-seasoned, highly educated, experienced judges that understand that a Preliminary skater is not the same as a Senior - and that skating skills are more important than flapping arms, drama but no skating.

BTW Keep your highlights in full view of the judging panel....because judges do sneeze, look down, drop pencils and zone out during events! I can't count the times when I was a judge that a fellow panel member would elbow me and ask - was that a 2s - was that clean - is that a toe loop they did --or worse.....what mark did you give? Did you pass it (on a test). Sad to say - those same judges are still at it and still don't know what they are looking at........Years of judging has given my coaching an entirely different perspective...for the better.

[Isk8NYC]

BTW Keep your highlights in full view of the judging panel....That's really good advice - I had a judge come up and comment on how BEAUTIFUL a skater's jump was in her program. I choreographed it right in front of the judges. The judge never commented on the weak spin that was buried in the corner, somewhat out of sight...

[Skittl1321]

I guess my issue with CoP is they look for things like features and levels, and those aren't part of the 6.0 system.

I think that's part of why the girl who can put her blade on top of her head wins more than the girl with nice centered less exciting spin.

[Virtualsk8r]

However, judges under CoP don't assign levels or identify features. That is the role of the technical caller - normally a coach. The judges are told what the element is and assign their -/+ based on the rules (ie a fall is automatic -3 on an element and if a judge gives a 0, you can bet that he/she 'dropped the pencil' at that point!)

So CoP judges using the 6.0 system evaluate elements more consistently when comparing all skaters in a flight.

[falen]

So how do you know which competition has good judging? In regards to the OP, I have heard that some rinks promote their skaters by placing them high even if they don't skate as well, kind of like PR. ANd also at some levels that the only requirement is "skating experience". Coach said that under that even I could be a judge8O. And trust me all I can do is glide on one foot yes but still only that. I am so worried that DD's first comp is going to be like that. How demoralizing because she would never be top since our rink does not, nor probably will not for a few years, host a comp!

[Virtualsk8r]

Falen: perhaps you can do with your dd what I do with my younger skaters. I NEVER let them see where they placed (unless they medal) and both skater and parent have to agree to that or else I will not enter them in a competition. Each time my skaters go out to compete, they have their own individual goals...a dream goal (land that loop or hold that spin)..and a realistic goal (land two jumps)...and know what is expected of them (hold spirals, head up, arms out, skate strong, get up fast if they fall, smile and have fun)...We debrief immediately after they skate, going over what was well done and how many goals were met...and then later, when the excitment is over we discuss how to improve for next competition. Parents find it less stressful when results are not factored into the equation -- and the skater has a more positive experience!!

Our club competition used to list results for only the top 3 skaters in each event, so that no one knew who ended up last.....

When my skaters are entered into a club competition where the judges are skaters/parents/volunteers and not trained to judge the sport properly, I always ensure that both my parents and skaters understand that it is the quality of their performance that is important - not the placings - and that if the results are not to their liking, then next time they should not enter the events. Club competitions are just the beginning and most of my skaters are on the competitive track to qualifying events, eventually, so they better get used to not winning at an early age!

[falen]

Great advise. How to impement is another story.

OP do you think that this might have happened to your dd? My dd will compete in her first soon and this post was NOT what I wanted to see!!

[Schmeck]

I don't know - not letting them see the scores is like keeping them wrapped up in bubble-wrap because they are too fragile to face the real world, imo. My daughter has competed in many sports (soccer, gymnastics, skating) and she has placed all over the place, and she learned from placing last, or second to last, just as much as placing near the top. If you keep them from seeing the placements, how are they ever going to deal with not getting into the college of their choice, or not making the team, or anything else? Learning to handle the valleys is much more important than celebrating the peaks. Life is never fair, after all, and the kids need to learn that it's only a sport too, not life and death, and it's OK to be last. Someone is always last!

[Mrs Redboots]

Falen: perhaps you can do with your dd what I do with my younger skaters. I NEVER let them see where they placed (unless they medal) and both skater and parent have to agree to that or else I will not enter them in a competition.
Well, that's a great idea, but it wouldn't work here where the score sheets are posted on the walls of the rink somewhere fairly obvious, and everybody rushes up to look!

[Virtualsk8r]

Mrs. Redboots: The scores are plastered all over the place here as well - although there is usually one wall with flight lists and skating order and the results are placed over that. So my skaters/parents know to stay away from that area of the rink.

BTW I do tell the skater what their placing was during our next lesson following the competition - if they want to know. This is after we have debriefed on site, and then discussed how the skater could have done better (ie head up, not zoned out, held a spiral etc. - things that can be fixed) - and what we are going to aim for in training for the next competition. At that age - everyone forgets their even was a competition by the next week and placing is not such a big issue. However, the skater still has that warm and fuzzy feeling about their competitive skate, which gives them more confidence the next time they face the judges!

Schmek: I don't hold back results from my more experienced skaters at all. The skaters I am referring to are entering their first few low low low level competitions - the bunny hop set, where there are no double jumps or even axels. I have seen too many skaters that enter a pre-pre preliminary or LTS competition and win win win!! Then when they move into the real figure skating competitive world, where tests are a requirement for entering, the skaters and their parents just can't handle the fact that they didn't win this time. So I like to give my new skaters a good feeling about their first low level competitions and have them learn to compete for themselves - not ribbons or medals. A very valuable life lesson!

My strategy has worked very well over the years. Most of my skaters compete beyond their years as I don't believe in holding back a skater to win at the low levels. They take pride in the fact that while they may be the youngest in a competitive level - they can keep up because the goal is to skate THEIR best. All of my competitive skaters have reached the national level - all have completed their gold tests very young and none of them have ever been discouraged for more than a minute when they didn't place where they wanted at a competition.

Of course, some of my students always end up at the bottom of their flight - but since the CoP system came into use - they can see how well their skating has improved by the point value given. So they came last - but were 3 points better than last competition - and just .5 from winning a medal.

[sk8tmum]

I'm paraphrasing, and I know it is still evolving, however, in Canada, the lower level skaters (LTS to most of you, Canskate to Canadian) - they are proposing eliminating "competitions against each other for placements" and having them skate to a standard. Everyone does their elements; they are measured agains the standard; and they are awarded Gold, Silver, Bronze standard, which tells them how they are progressing. Everyone could get gold; everyone could get bronze; you can get a mix. It makes sense to me ... ordinals don't make sense, as in a strong flight, you could end up last with a skate that could end up in first in another flight, and they don't know what needs to be improved upon. It makes sense to me.

[phoenix]

I'm paraphrasing, and I know it is still evolving, however, in Canada, the lower level skaters (LTS to most of you, Canskate to Canadian) - they are proposing eliminating "competitions against each other for placements" and having them skate to a standard. Everyone does their elements; they are measured agains the standard; and they are awarded Gold, Silver, Bronze standard, which tells them how they are progressing. Everyone could get gold; everyone could get bronze; you can get a mix. It makes sense to me ... ordinals don't make sense, as in a strong flight, you could end up last with a skate that could end up in first in another flight, and they don't know what needs to be improved upon. It makes sense to me.

I LOVE this idea!!!

[Skittl1321]

Skating against a standard sounds like skating against the book- didn't USFS recently do away with that? (That is if you are the only one in the event, you'll win it?)

I know ISI still has skaters against the book, and have heard of many who have not won a gold medal.

[Isk8NYC]

I'm paraphrasing, and I know it is still evolving, however, in Canada, the lower level skaters (LTS to most of you, Canskate to Canadian) - they are proposing eliminating "competitions against each other for placements" and having them skate to a standard. Everyone does their elements; they are measured agains the standard; and they are awarded Gold, Silver, Bronze standard, which tells them how they are progressing. Everyone could get gold; everyone could get bronze; you can get a mix. It makes sense to me ... ordinals don't make sense, as in a strong flight, you could end up last with a skate that could end up in first in another flight, and they don't know what needs to be improved upon. It makes sense to me.I also LOVE this idea for the LTS levels.

It's simple and effective plus it offers the opportunity for some feedback for the coaches/skaters. The organizers don't have to divide by age group or gender - all the USFS Basic 5 skaters skate "against the book" so to speak.

Ordinals really are confusing for parents and when they're mixed, they become meaningless as prior posters have stated. I preferred the ISI method of giving out the total point values to rank the skaters. The "book skater" was 90% of the total points, so I likened it to "getting an A grade" in a performance.

I also believe the USFSA Basic Skills did away with "skating against the book." I think if there's only one skater in a group, they automatically get a win. I'm not even sure if the judges watch the skater and make notes. It would be nice if it were an exhibition at least, so the skater could get comments from the judges on what to improve and what is really good. That feedback is vital. It gives the judges a break from being ... judgemental, lol.

I wonder how you estimate the number of medals needed for competition events if there are six skaters in Basic 5 who could conceivably all get Gold, Silver, Bronze or a mix? (That's why most Clubs don't put the year on medals anymore; if you have extras left over, you just save them for next competition and give them out then.)

Can an ISI or USFSA Basic Skills competition use a judging system OTHER THAN 6.0 Ordinals? I know that one of our in-house competitions in NYC offered a "feedback only" option for the skaters, even those with competitors. The skater wasn't eligible for a placement, but the judges gave them feedback on their skating. This was about four or five years ago, before skating against the book was eliminated.

I'd love to know if there are any competitions in the US who've tried the CanSkate approach to judging.

[sk8tmum]

I think they propose certificates. Which I like myself; the medals get lost, you can frame or scrapbook a certificate. We've got piles of medals that we can't remember what competition they were for ... unless we get them engraved ...

they are also recommending eliminating "solos" for LTS. Which would cut costs for parents ... and have the kids focus on skill development :)

[wasamb]

I'm paraphrasing, and I know it is still evolving, however, in Canada, the lower level skaters (LTS to most of you, Canskate to Canadian) - they are proposing eliminating "competitions against each other for placements" and having them skate to a standard. Everyone does their elements; they are measured agains the standard; and they are awarded Gold, Silver, Bronze standard, which tells them how they are progressing. Everyone could get gold; everyone could get bronze; you can get a mix. It makes sense to me ... ordinals don't make sense, as in a strong flight, you could end up last with a skate that could end up in first in another flight, and they don't know what needs to be improved upon. It makes sense to me.

My DS was evaluated this way in a music competition, and at first I thought it was a little soft, but after watching the event, I was sold on the idea. The evaluator also gave a few pointers to each competitor to help him/her improve for the next time. There was a very positive 'vibe' to the whole thing.

I could see this working for the early skating stages as well. In our house, it was as much about the costume and getting to perform (and pizza at a rink!) as about the competition.

[Isk8NYC]

they are also recommending eliminating "solos" for LTS. Which would cut costs for parents ... and have the kids focus on skill development :)I don't know if that would fly. I've never had an LTS student who didn't want to dress the part and skate a solo to music. I think once the student reaches say Basic 6, the "compulsory moves" events are considered as add-ons, but rarely does a student show any interest in only entering that event.

I also think it would be really intimidating to have a skater's first solo program be in "No Test" unless it was a test track event. I saw someone do an HUGE axel in a No Test event a year or so ago. Just eclipsed the competition with that move. That would discourage a lot of recreational skaters, I think.

Below Basic 6, I think doing the "compulsory moves" / skill development approach works fine. One of the Clubs I taught in had an annual competition like that. It was very low-key - the skaters warmed up in a coned-off area at one end of the rink. Each skater was escorted individually to the judges by one of our pros. She then led them through the elements one at a time. The judges evaluated each element, gave a score and a comment. At the end, the skaters placed based on the scores and they kept copies of the judging sheets.

I really like the "skating against the standard" idea though because it sets a good tone for sportsmanship - you're not competing against a real person, you're trying to skate YOUR best against the standard. It's a learning opportunity in how to compete. I like it.

It simplifies the competition and saves a lot of money. The events take less time on the ice. An LTS skater can compete without ever having a private lesson from a coach. Older skaters might turn their nose up at it unless the entire competition was structured in that way.

[Virtualsk8r]

My dd competed against the standard in competitive ballroom dancing. The judges watched the dancer and then awarded 1st 2nd 3rd to the dancer based on judging against the standard. I remember once when she was the only little one out there, dancing with her partner - the judges placed her 1st and she came home with this huge crystal plaque that said - 1st against the standard! Sort of like trying a compulsory test in skating where the judges are supposed to evaluate your dance/skills/moves/freeskate against the rulebook standard.

[sk8tmum]

Judging to a "standard" also helps in areas that are underpopulated/categories that are underpopulated. My son regularly "won" medals just because there were only 1, 2 or 3 boys skating. It was discouraging (hey! I came last and I got a medal, and because the girls would remind him that he didn't really WIN, he just didn't have anyone to skate against - which caused resentment when club comp results were posted ! :frus:), and it also didn't give clear evidence of progression or frankly how he was doing against others at his level; he could be miles off the level and still come home with a medal. His coach and thus indirectly "us" could measure him, but, for a young kid, it's not an easy concept. If he was to receive, say, a "participation" because his skills weren't up to the level, or a "gold" for when he was right at the level, it would help show if he was progressing. In areas without a lot of skaters, it can be hard for them to figure out how they are doing for the same reason ... they see the same small group of kids, and they are thus judged against a tiny pool which can be quite unrepresentative of what they might see in a bigger area.

[Virtualsk8r]

Imagine if we used 'the standard' to judge the LTS & pre/preminary competitions? In some flights, there are so many really good skaters that get lost in the marking, while in another flight at the same level - the winner can be a skater with lower skills than the last place finisher in the first flight.
Draws aren't always fair. Imagine if the judges could award 1st against the standard - and most of the flight won? A true evaluation of the skills and abilities at that level. And, the second flight? Perhaps only a couple would receive 3rd against the standard. Just a thought.

[kssk8fan]

just wondering.....but exactly what is wrong with coming in last. Someone has to place last if someone's going to place 1st. My daughter dances competitively as well as skates and the dance competitions are weird. The awards are platinum, high gold, gold, and I think there is a silver but not sure. It's based on a set of points added together from a number of judges and if you meet those points, you win the respective award. Personally, I think it's just totally useless! We were at one competition where every dance received high gold and only the senior level skaters received high gold.

At least after a skating event, your child knows what to work on to improve. I don't have a problem with placements - if the skater did well, they are happy, if they didn't, after a few tears, it builds character! IMO, Learning to lose graciously is as important if not more, than learning to win graciously. (this goes for the skaters and the parents!).

[Skittl1321]

I don't think anyone has an issue with coming in last- the issue is that no one knows what the judges are looking for because every judge looks for something different (is it better to have a BIG sloppy jump, or a small technically correct one? Slow but nice edges, or fast but mostly on flats with toe picks scratching).

So the skater's DON'T know what they need to improve because each competition the standard is different.

[sk8tmum]

It's also a factor with ordinals that you don't know how far off the pace you might be (or might not be). With points, you know if you are within a few points or if you are a huge gap away from being up with the top. In a flight of 5, 4 might be at a hugely higher level in capabilities, and the 5th skater not even close to being competitive ... but you can't tell the disparity. You might also have all 5 within minimal margins ... but you can't tell that.

[Isk8NYC]

When I skated, the ISI used to post the judge's points, which was useful to the skater and coaches. You could SEE how many points you pulled in and how they added up, so it gave a target - "I'll fix my wonky camel and get more points next time."

Most ISI Clubs did away with those postings because too many coaches/parents were questioning the scoring. "Well, why did my skater get a lower score than this one?"

It had another side benefit: it added what they now call "transparency." That made it easier to spot mistakes in a mostly-manual system.

During an ISI competition many years ago, my youngest niece skated against a girl from our home club plus three or four girls from the host rink. My niece won, but something seemed odd because the other girl from our club came in last. I didn't think my niece skated that well and expected her to get at most, second place. The other girl from our club had skated really well but her points were so low that I assumed she forgot to do something. I didn't coach either of them, I was just chaperoning and competing.

I asked to see the detailed judge's score sheets, just to clear the issue. (Cost me $20, because it was considered a "protest.") The tallies were done with adding machines - the accountants took the three judge's sheets and added the scores together to come up with the total scores.

For the other girl from my club, they had missed one judge's score sheet entirely.

They made good on the mistake and apologized, plus they refunded my protest money because it was a valid protest, lol.

It seems like coaches really can't say anything if something seems "off" during a Basic Skills comp. For example, if a skater does something from a higher level, there's supposed to be a penalty. Each event has a set of required elements, but if a skater doesn't perform it, they lose those points. Neither issue is reflected on the ordinals, which is the only thing most skaters/coaches see after a competition.

I think that, when there's an issue with the program itself (the skater forgot something, did something from a higher level, etc.) there should be a way to notify the skater's coach. Otherwise, the assumption is that "you were outskated" and the program continues to be performed, as is, setting the stage for a season of disappointments.

[momof3chicks]

just wondering.....but exactly what is wrong with coming in last. Someone has to place last if someone's going to place 1st. My daughter dances competitively as well as skates and the dance competitions are weird. The awards are platinum, high gold, gold, and I think there is a silver but not sure. It's based on a set of points added together from a number of judges and if you meet those points, you win the respective award. Personally, I think it's just totally useless! We were at one competition where every dance received high gold and only the senior level skaters received high gold.

At least after a skating event, your child knows what to work on to improve. I don't have a problem with placements - if the skater did well, they are happy, if they didn't, after a few tears, it builds character! IMO, Learning to lose graciously is as important if not more, than learning to win graciously. (this goes for the skaters and the parents!).

Nothing, but these kids get virtually no feedback on why, and at times it is perplexing to everyone involved as to why some are ranked how they are ranked along with the constant disparity between judges in the 6.0 system.

[momof3chicks]

It seems like coaches really can't say anything if something seems "off" during a Basic Skills comp. For example, if a skater does something from a higher level, there's supposed to be a penalty. Each event has a set of required elements, but if a skater doesn't perform it, they lose those points. Neither issue is reflected on the ordinals, which is the only thing most skaters/coaches see after a competition.

I think that, when there's an issue with the program itself (the skater forgot something, did something from a higher level, etc.) there should be a way to notify the skater's coach. Otherwise, the assumpti on is that "you were outskated" and the program continues to be performed, as is, setting the stage for a season of disappointments.

Yes, and I have seen that happen even more in test track events. Like you say, the coaches are not even told that the skater is doing an illegal element etc.

[kssk8fan]

this made me think of something. Gymnastics, at the lower levels, the kids do compulsory routines. Everyone does the same routine on each apparatus. It is not until the higher levels that the kids and coaches begin to choreograph and perform specific customized routine based around their abilities.

It's pretty boring to watch but it does allow for objective judging, sometimes, and you really can give the gymnast feedback. It's similar to the compulsory competitions in figure skating. Usually it's obvious why a skater doesn't place as well, or places high in this event.

I'm sure figure skating will never adopt the same method as gymnastics but it's not that bad of an idea, in my opinion.

[momof3chicks]

this made me think of something. Gymnastics, at the lower levels, the kids do compulsory routines. Everyone does the same routine on each apparatus. It is not until the higher levels that the kids and coaches begin to choreograph and perform specific customized routine based around their abilities.

It's pretty boring to watch but it does allow for objective judging, sometimes, and you really can give the gymnast feedback. It's similar to the compulsory competitions in figure skating. Usually it's obvious why a skater doesn't place as well, or places high in this event.

I'm sure figure skating will never adopt the same method as gymnastics but it's not that bad of an idea, in my opinion.

My dd's coach started putting her in compulsory moves events and she did very well often times winning. It gave her a lot of confidence that she was actually very good at the elements she was doing. I sometimes think it takes more experience to be good with music etc.

[Schmeck]

My daughter dances competitively as well as skates and the dance competitions are weird. The awards are platinum, high gold, gold, and I think there is a silver but not sure. It's based on a set of points added together from a number of judges and if you meet those points, you win the respective award. Personally, I think it's just totally useless! We were at one competition where every dance received high gold and only the senior level skaters received high gold.

At least after a skating event, your child knows what to work on to improve. I don't have a problem with placements - if the skater did well, they are happy, if they didn't, after a few tears, it builds character! IMO, Learning to lose graciously is as important if not more, than learning to win graciously. (this goes for the skaters and the parents!).

I agree with this 100% - my younger daughter dances competitively, and depending on the group running the competition (and it is so not organized or standardized, no unifying organization) you can get 'ultimate gold' or 'platinum', or any other such nonsense on top of gold, high gold, silver, high silver, bronze, and high bronze. Total crap - dance competitions drive me insane after years of skating comps.

I could see this happening a bit with skating too - especially at the LTS level.

Oh goodness, what if skating comps implemented what I call the 'wedgie awards'? Those inane "oh, you had such pretty pink costumes so I'm awarding you the pretty in pink award" crap they call the 'special awards'? They go on and on with those at dance comps. (That's when I start getting punchy and talk about who had the best wedgie, hence the name) Just shoot me now if they do that at skating comps!

[sk8tmum]

In the case of what I believe Skate Canada is proposing, it will be directed by the overseeing body - i.e. Skate Canada - and the levels will be fixed, and the expectations/levels based on a known standard. Will it be perfect? Of course not, but, it does at least give feedback (i.e. a Gold Standard Waltz Jump - called actually a forward rotating power jump here - has the following characteristics [explanation provided] - which gives the Bronze level skater an idea of where they are still "below" Gold Standard, and this is what they need to improve). We already have this on the test sheets for evaluated tests sort of/kind of: Needs Improvement, Satisfactory, Good, Excellent - but, here, I believe a written "standard" of what Gold etc is to look like will be provided for coaches and skaters alike.

Frankly, dance comps baffle me anyways, but, then again, skating comps used to be equally as baffling!

[slusher]

I have a bookshelf full of manuals and videos of what all the current standards look like. There's no need to reinvent skating, a crappy waltz jump is going to be a crappy waltz jump no matter what environment it's viewed in. I have an awful feeling that the emperor is just having a change of clothes, and Little SusySkater who trains five days a week and wins Canskate elements with huge waltz/toe/salchow (but is working on her axel) is still going to be the norm.

[kssk8fan]

^^^^^this :)