Worlds 2010 - Women's Final (** Spoiler **)

[MQSeries]

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1. Mao
2. Yu-Na
3. Lepisto
4. Ando
5. Phanaeuf
6. Kostner
7. Mirai
9. Flatt

Awwww, Mirai. What an opportunity blown. To drop from 1st to 7th for such a good free skater as she is ? Eeek. It was funny when Marai apologized to Frank, and Frank replied was "You're not dead.", LOL.

Congrats to Mao on winning her second Worlds. Now please use more user-friendly music next season :)

Congrats to Yu-Na also on making the podium after the 7th place finish in the short.

Ando's LP was so lifeless to me. Character drive program is not her forte. Morozov needs to do a better job picking music and choreography for her.

I would like to see Mao put back a 3lutz and 3sal in her LP. She should not rely on Yu-Na making mistakes to win.

[2boysmom]

I was happy for Laura Lepesto. I think for Mirai this was a good learning experience. I was thinking after Rachel and Mirai's finish at the Olympics that the US had a good chance to get three spots back for World's, but it wasn't meant to be. I am also very happy for Mao, she skated a great free.

[EdgeMan]

MAOOO CONGRATS!!!

She was just awsome, I just love her :bow:
I was so upset for her for "losing" at the Olympics, but another Worlds Gold serves as a wound-healer at this point! I gotta go see her at the next Olympics in 2014 LIVE!!! :lol:

Btw, this is my first post here, I'm new to the forums. I'm a skater myself, and love watching professional figure skating (especially Mao and Yu-Na)!

[Virtualsk8r]

Way to go, Cynthia! Fourth place in the long - 5th overall. No longer the 'also ran' and 'has been great'. Proof that a skater who undergoes that growth spurt can return with great determination - to skate at the Olympic and World level! She overcame her mental demons to skate the program of a lifetime......Perhaps skating in Joannie's shadow all these years has been a good thing....now with Joannie out, Cynthia showed that she could shine.

Just over one point difference between Cynthia's 5th overall -- and third place Laura Lepisto. That means if Cynthia had done a level 3 or 4 spin- instead of level 2, and had a level 3 in her footwork instead of a level 2 --- she would have been the World Bronze medalist. Gotta love those close competitions - because it proves that every rotation, every edge and every action on the ice is worth its weight in gold or in this case -- bronze!!

Also this World's has shown that the judges and technical callers are (finally) not afraid to call a cheat a cheat, or lower the level of a spin or spiral sequence to what was actually performed, ie Yuna Kim. Just a few competitions ago - you'd never see a reigning World and Olympic champion receiving a low level - or no score - for sub par moves! Congratulations to the judges as well.

[MQSeries]

Mao gave one of her best LP performance, and it was still scored lower than a subpar Yu-Na's performance. What does Mao have to do to even come close?

[NDsk8]

Mao gave one of her best LP performance, and it was still scored lower than a subpar Yu-Na's performance. What does Mao have to do to even come close?

I totally agree. Yu-Na is certainly the "class" of the field, I agree. But she is WAY overscored when you consider Mao's 3 triple axles.

The same thing happened to Joubert this time in men's. I agree that if all the skater has are tricks, they should not win over a more complete package. BUT when the complete package is there and one skater has the more difficult tricks, such as Mao & Brian J did at Worlds', then it is criminal to just keep rewarding the person who doesn't take the risk and include higher value jumps, footwork, etc.

The scoring sytem has to be tweaked to reflect this.

Kudos to Takahari (I probably botched that) though, and to Mao, who shouldln't have had to do the more complex tricks, but did them anyway and did them well.

[Artemis]

I'm really happy for Mao's placement (well-deserved win), but mostly I was happy to see her finally enjoying skating again. When was the last time we saw her smile on ice? I hope she holds onto that feeling and translates it into her programs for next year -- programs that suit her skating strengths better. (I also wish she'd dump Tarasova, but somehow I don't see that happening.)

Cudos to Yu-Na for even showing up to the competition considering the utter exhaustion after the rollercoaster she's been on for the last year. And for fighting back after the near-disaster of the short -- way to show champion spirit.

Congrats to Laura on her first Worlds medal. I love watching her skate, she's so light and free, and it seems like everything she does is so effortless. And I'm glad the mental mistakes she made in her long didn't affect her overall placement.

Huge congrats to Cynthia. The pressure she was putting on herself (not to mention the pressure from Skate Canada) in Joannie's absence must have been intense, but she rose to the challenge with two great performances.

Too bad for Mirai ... but I'm confident she'll come back fighting. A learning experience to be sure, and she has plenty of time.

[Artemis]

I know "ordinals" don't mean a heck of a lot in the points system, but still, these were some of the wackiest placements I've seen for a long time at a world-level competition.

SP + LP = final

1 Mao ASADA 2 + 2 = 1
2 Yu-Na KIM 7 + 1 = 2
3 Laura LEPISTO 3 + 6 = 3
4 Miki ANDO 11 + 3 = 4
5 Cynthia PHANEUF 8 + 4 = 5
6 Carolina KOSTNER 4 + 5 = 6
7 Mirai NAGASU 1 + 11 = 7
8 Ksenia MAKAROVA 5 + 8 = 8
9 Rachael FLATT 6 + 9 = 9
11 Akiko SUZUKI 20 + 7 = 11

[skatingfan678]

A big congratulations to Mao Asada! I knew she was going to win anyway but I was still a bit scared that Kim Yu Na would somehow bounce back in the long program with an astronomical score and own the competition. I'm just so glad she didn't because Asada really deserves the gold after a disappointing Olympics.

I feel pretty bad for Miki Ando, one or two more points and she would've medalled. I know her long program may seem a bit dull, but I like her music as well as her clean finishes on her jumps.

Not quite sure what happened to Makarova, Nagasu and Kostner. I really wanted to see them do well.

[Schmeck]

Way to go, Cynthia! Fourth place in the long - 5th overall. No longer the 'also ran' and 'has been great'. Proof that a skater who undergoes that growth spurt can return with great determination - to skate at the Olympic and World level! She overcame her mental demons to skate the program of a lifetime......Perhaps skating in Joannie's shadow all these years has been a good thing....now with Joannie out, Cynthia showed that she could shine.

Just over one point difference between Cynthia's 5th overall -- and third place Laura Lepisto. That means if Cynthia had done a level 3 or 4 spin- instead of level 2, and had a level 3 in her footwork instead of a level 2 --- she would have been the World Bronze medalist. Gotta love those close competitions - because it proves that every rotation, every edge and every action on the ice is worth its weight in gold or in this case -- bronze!!

Also this World's has shown that the judges and technical callers are (finally) not afraid to call a cheat a cheat, or lower the level of a spin or spiral sequence to what was actually performed, ie Yuna Kim. Just a few competitions ago - you'd never see a reigning World and Olympic champion receiving a low level - or no score - for sub par moves! Congratulations to the judges as well.

If Phaneuf had done a 3flip instead of 3toes she would have also made up some points. Why no 3flip in her program?

[GoSveta]

A big congratulations to Mao Asada! I knew she was going to win anyway but I was still a bit scared that Kim Yu Na would somehow bounce back in the long program with an astronomical score and own the competition. I'm just so glad she didn't because Asada really deserves the gold after a disappointing Olympics.

I feel pretty bad for Miki Ando, one or two more points and she would've medalled. I know her long program may seem a bit dull, but I like her music as well as her clean finishes on her jumps.

Not quite sure what happened to Makarova, Nagasu and Kostner. I really wanted to see them do well.
I'm not following the Logic in the bolded statement.

I feel a bit bad for Miki as well, she's always the underdog and people still rag on her even though she's been a World Champion and has the capability to put together fantastic programs when she skates clean.

I haven't seen the score sheets/breakdowns, but Miki has a tendency to underrotate jumps. Because of that, the judges are usually less likely to give her the benefit of a doubt when her landings are questionable, the way they should and often do for most other skaters.

Nagasu... :( Being first after the short is always nerve-wracking when you aren't the most experienced skater.

I don't see anything special about Asada's 3A that she pre-rotates by about half a revolution. They should all get downgraded, given the way she performs them. A male skater would never get away with doing that, and that's certainly not the way Midori and Tanya did theirs.

Yu-Na Kim really needs to work on her Layback and Spirals (moreso the latter). Her footwork feels very pedestrian as well. When will they crack down on these "let me go back and do a bit more" footwork sequences?

Phaneuf did so well because so many skaters bombed. There were at least 4 skaters capable of beating her in the FS, that didn't skate up to their potential. I can imagine half of these skaters are just glad to get a break after the year they've had :P

[Artemis]

Phaneuf did so well because so many skaters bombed. There were at least 4 skaters capable of beating her in the FS, that didn't skate up to their potential.

Well, sure, but she also did so well because she skated well. She's always had great potential but has had difficulty putting it all together in competition. At Worlds she did skate to her potential, highlighting her strength and musicality. She got positive GOE on all her elements, and beat her previous personal best score by something like 20 points.

I don't see anything special about Asada's 3A that she pre-rotates by about half a revolution. They should all get downgraded, given the way she performs them.

The technical experts, with the benefit of super-slow-mo, do call her 3Axels as they see them. At Worlds she was given credit for the first 3Ax in the long, but the 2nd one was downgraded. The one in the short was also downgraded.

[GoSveta]

Well, sure, but she also did so well because she skated well. She's always had great potential but has had difficulty putting it all together in competition. At Worlds she did skate to her potential, highlighting her strength and musicality. She got positive GOE on all her elements, and beat her previous personal best score by something like 20 points.
That's great. Maybe I should start watching her again, seeing as how I started using her programs as bathroom/coffee/phone/quickhit break time for years now. I DID watch her programs for the Olympics, and they weren't anything to write home aboug. I can imagine with a bit more enthusiasm they maybe much more enjoyable though. I'll check YouTube, actually. You've piqued my interest :P

The GOE rankings from the judges have proven to be unreliable at beast. I've looked at score sheets for flawed elements (obviously flawed elements, I should say) where the GOE ranged from -2 to +1. I put little weight in that. I have to watch the performance, though. If she had a great skate, I don't expect to be bored or put off.

The technical experts, with the benefit of super-slow-mo, do call her 3Axels as they see them. At Worlds she was given credit for the first 3Ax in the long, but the 2nd one was downgraded. The one in the short was also downgraded.
I'm not talking about the landing dings that she've gotten for underrotation. I'm talking about her obscene amount of prerotation in the jump. 90% of the time she's basically taking off backwards.

I can't comment on what the judges actually consider when they make those calls personally, since I'm not sitting over their shoulders when they're actually going over the elements using that. I just know that lots of skaters get away with a significant amount of prerotation on Axel jumps, and Mao's triple axel is the worst offender that I've ever seen.

Her skate was good, she's just an underwhelming jumper by the standards set by her peers, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzFGzsn6Skg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_1DB8s2rJE

Perhaps I'm just really bad at counting jump rotations in the air?

That being said, I find it comical that Mao placed 2nd in the FS to Yu-Na Kim with the mistakes Kim made. No, Mao doesn't do a Lutz or Salchow. To her credit, the 3As replaced the Lutz jump. Yu-Na Kim doesn't do a Loop so I don't find anything odd about Mao not doing a Salchow in her program (when you discount the missing Lutz jumps due to the Axels).

To Yu-Na's credit, the GOE on her jumps (when landed cleanly, which is somwhat "normal" for her) is usually much higher than for Mao. Mao is arguably a better spinner and obviously has better spirals (and footwork as well, IMO), but it's simply not enough to overcome YNK. Mao's programs seem built around the jumps and people got over that years ago. YNK also has better skating skills, posture, and skates with noticeably more speed. Her interpretations are also quite "theatrical" to the point of addictively entertainment. Those two skaters have very little in common, and I guess that's why they are so polarizing (their individual fan bases usually have little to like about the other, when you get over/disregard the YT Race-based Rhetorics).

What I find completely hillarious (in retrospect) is how much people used to bash skaters like Slutskaya, Liachenko, Bonaly, Baiul, etc. for telegraphing. These days skaters skate even further across the ice than they used to, to prepare for a jump. I wonder how long it will take before the commentators began mentioning that, again.

[Isk8NYC]

Different age, different commentators.
If they repeated what Peggy and Dick said about 'telegraphing jumps', today's commentators would be criticized. So, to be original, they come up with their own sound bites of "underrotation" and "prerotation."

[GoSveta]

I don't really think it's a sound bite. If you telegraph for 4 seconds on 5 jumping passes, that's 20 seconds out of the program - a significant amount of time. More often than not the telegraph is accompanied by little to no choreography.

The telegraph is more of a components issue, while the pre/under-rotation is more of a technical issue. In that sense, it's a lot more subjective.

I just find it odd that those other skaters had to work so hard to remove most of their telegraph so they wouldn't be penalized, yet skaters these days seem to do whatever they can to go on a coffee break during the program.

[skatingfan678]

Does anyone else get the impression that Mao Asada's jumps look so clean and efficient? To me she just seems to be the best 'mover' on ice although she may not always be the most graceful. Every element she performs (especially the triple axle) she makes it look effortless. Go Mao Asada!:P

[sk8ergalgal]

Somehow I thought I read somewhere that skaters that telegraph their jumps would also receive lower marks like the in the old system. I think telegraphing is taken into consideration in the second set of marks in the new system under skating skills. Don't quote me though not 100% sure about this.

Also thought I would put my two cents in on the mao/yu na discussion. I think that Mao's jumps look really nice but that they don't carry the speed into and out of them making her's score less than Yu na's. Also there is always the questionable edge entry into her flips and lutzes (which must have been why she stopped doing the lutz). Yu na is superior in every aspect except the spiral sequence. Mao has superior flexibility that is uncontested.

[MQSeries]

I can't comment on what the judges actually consider when they make those calls personally, since I'm not sitting over their shoulders when they're actually going over the elements using that. I just know that lots of skaters get away with a significant amount of prerotation on Axel jumps, and Mao's triple axel is the worst offender that I've ever seen.


Mao's 3A lift into the jump looks normal to me. Her degree of pre-rotation before both feet are off the ice is equivalent to any men that are doing 3Axels.

[EdgeMan]

Does anyone else get the impression that Mao Asada's jumps look so clean and efficient? To me she just seems to be the best 'mover' on ice although she may not always be the most graceful. Every element she performs (especially the triple axle) she makes it look effortless. Go Mao Asada!:P

I totally agree. Mao ist just...elegant, eloquent and *efficient* :roll:

[doubletoe]

I don't really think it's a sound bite. If you telegraph for 4 seconds on 5 jumping passes, that's 20 seconds out of the program - a significant amount of time. More often than not the telegraph is accompanied by little to no choreography.

The telegraph is more of a components issue, while the pre/under-rotation is more of a technical issue. In that sense, it's a lot more subjective.

I just find it odd that those other skaters had to work so hard to remove most of their telegraph so they wouldn't be penalized, yet skaters these days seem to do whatever they can to go on a coffee break during the program.

Telegraphing a jump will usually result in lower GOE's from the judges on that jump. Telegraphed jumps will also lower the Transitions score under the PCS. These days, if a skater telegraphs a jump, I don't think it's a "coffee break", I think it is usually an effort to keep control over the takeoff edge to avoid getting an edge deduction (which would result in worse -GOE than the long setup).

[GoSveta]

Mao's 3A lift into the jump looks normal to me. Her degree of pre-rotation before both feet are off the ice is equivalent to any men that are doing 3Axels.
No. I just watched some Plushenko, Yagudin, etc. videos and they don't pre-rotate their axels basically half a revolution on the ice.

Maybe she's prerotates like the common mediocre jumper, but good jumpers don't cheat like that.

[GoSveta]

Telegraphing a jump will usually result in lower GOE's from the judges on that jump. Telegraphed jumps will also lower the Transitions score under the PCS. These days, if a skater telegraphs a jump, I don't think it's a "coffee break", I think it is usually an effort to keep control over the takeoff edge to avoid getting an edge deduction (which would result in worse -GOE than the long setup).
I know this (and sort of said it).

The coffee break reference was because the telegraph looks like the skater takes a break from the performance to do something totally unrelated to the performance. It's like... "Ahhhh! Black Swan... wait, what?"

Stroking halfway across the rink [straight] into a jump should be more harshly penalized. I don't agree with a telegraph being used to disguise technical deficiencies. Either you're good at getting on the right edge or not (most Flutzers and Lippers will change edges regardless of the telegraph or long entrance, ref: Tara Lipinski, Shizuka Arakawa), because when you train that way for so long it becomes muscle memory (subconscious).

That is why Mao took the Lutz out. I'm pretty sure even if she glided from one edge to another backwards she'd still Flutz 80% of the time.

Yes, I'm aware rushing can lead to mistakes, but if your timing is off it will be off whether u wait 2 or 5 seconds to fire the jump off :P