Heavy jumper

[ukmum]

Can anyone offer any advice, partic any coaches out there. My daughter though small is a heavy jumper. She looks and sounds heavy. She even feels heavy if she jumps whilst hold my hands. Coach isn't sure if it is ankle strength or core strength problem. Any ideas and also any ideas for anything that will help?

[sk8tmum]

When she lands, does she land with a "soft knee"? Her knee should be well flexed, and her foot as well flexed forward in the skate.

Does she land on a glide, or is it land and stop?

Most "heavy jumpers" that I've seen are landing with a stiff leg (either because of jump technique or because of overbooting) or are simply "jumping" without a good flowing entry, good checkout, and glide after the jump.

[kayskate]

If she lands flat, the blade will make a loud noise. She may also land short and flat which will cause a heavy landing followed by a 3turn which gives a heavy appearance to the jump. Soft knees and a land further toward the pick can reduce this. Ice Dance lessons can help soften the knees. A harness can help the skater to complete the rotation.

Kay

[Tennisany1]

I agree with the last two posters. Be careful about over booting. Sometimes kids are labeled as heavy jumpers so parents think they need a stronger boot, when in fact, it is the stronger boot that is contributing to the heavy jumping. You can see it can become a vicious circle! My dd used to sound really heavy on her axel. She was landing flat and a bit short. Now that she lands on her toe pick and it is fully rotated she has lost the heaviness.

[ukmum]

Thanks folks. She is in new boots and due to various circumstances has only had them on the ice for about 10 hours and a fair bit of that doing field moves. She has always been said to have soft knees and this is one of the things the coach first spotted about her. I'm wondering if the combination of boots not broken in enough, going up 2 sizes and more advanced blades could be the problem then? Also as she is just moving into doubles extra ankle strength is needed? Could it just be a combination of these things all at once?

[ukmum]

Another thought, she has just moved to the ace blade from Mark IV she has been a bit worriedabout the toe pick, could it be she is trying to avoid the toe pick and therfore landing too far back on the blade? She has good flow on entry and exit but looks and sounds heavy.

[Tennisany1]

Sounds to me like all those things could be contributing factors. I wouldn't worry yet. Give her a bit more time to get used to the boots and blades; chances are it will all work itself out.

One more thing, have the boots been heat molded? Assuming they are heat mold-able, that may help a bit.

[sk8tmum]

Thanks folks. She is in new boots and due to various circumstances has only had them on the ice for about 10 hours and a fair bit of that doing field moves. She has always been said to have soft knees and this is one of the things the coach first spotted about her. I'm wondering if the combination of boots not broken in enough, going up 2 sizes and more advanced blades could be the problem then? Also as she is just moving into doubles extra ankle strength is needed? Could it just be a combination of these things all at once?

Hmmm ... was she a heavy jumper before the boot change, or is this a usual problem. If it's an old pattern, then, the new boots and blade are likely not the issue. However - are the new boots stiffer? And, why 2 sizes - !!! Were her old ones way too small? That's a huge jump in size - plus, in addition to what is likely a much heavier blade, and a different one, she's got a fair bit of additional distance from the toe pick to the rocker. Will definitely cause some changes for her to get used to.

I would suggest that you focus on having her break in the boots before you move forward. There are lots of threads on how to break in a boot properly. Doing edge progression exercises and stroking with focus on control and deep knee bend will be good. The field moves may actually be a good idea !

As for the ankle strength ... not sure what you mean. The control to land and hold a good double doesn't come from the ankles. Or are you referring to a stronger boot? If she's in a stronger boot, and she can't bend it yet, then, the doubles will be more difficult as she won't be able to hold the landings properly with a properly bent knee and flexed foot.

[sk8tmum]

Another thought, she has just moved to the ace blade from Mark IV she has been a bit worriedabout the toe pick, could it be she is trying to avoid the toe pick and therfore landing too far back on the blade? She has good flow on entry and exit but looks and sounds heavy.

Okay, I'm thinking ... when she jumps does she jump UP and DOWN or UP and OUT? UP and DOWN will look and sound heavy more so than UP and OUT. If she is up and down, then, the coach will have her work on distance in her jumps, and that will help resolve some of it right there.

[kssk8fan]

I would guess it's the additional size of the boot and blade (finding her center) as well as the higher end blade. I've seen kids that are overbladed, sounding loud on the ice at first. It eventually works itself out and they get used to their equipment, but if it is the blade, yes - it does sound and look strange! If it's still an issue in a month or so, then I would be concerned.

[ukmum]

There were no problems when in the old boots. She went up two sizes as she had a growth spurt and also has one foot larger than the other which meant half a size down would have been too tight on the larger foot. The boots are a bit stiffer than the last ones, but only one boot up and she was in Jackson Classiques before now in Wifa Prima's. tried the jumping without boots and she feels light as a feather so I think it might be down to boot break in plus the weight of going from plastic to leather soles plus the size difference. She has commented that these feel heavy so maybe she just needs a bit more leg strength to cope with the heavier boot? The ankle question came from whether she is able to get enough fast flex going into the jump, again around the possibility that it is weight of boot.

Thanks again, I think we will wait and see fo a bit but maybe get her boots remoulded.

[cazzie]

I'm probably the most biased parent around but WIFA's for us were problems from start to finish. Several other skaters at our rink who used to use WIFA's have no switched although it could also be about coach bias?

My daughter was in WIFA prima's. From what i remember they are a soft beginner boot but WFIA do seem heavier than some of the other beginner ones. We had issues because my daughter has very narrow feet and narrow ankles and even with a narrow width fitting I don't think we ever got them snug. Her first pair lasted 4 months before they broke down completely and her second pair (free replacement from the company) lasted 6 weeks! They said she must be a "heavy jumper".

She is now in Graf's (way heavier boot) - narrowest fit. They're still a bit too wide and we really have to pull them tight otherwise her feet move about (and tights without socks are a no no) - but all the "heavy jumper" comments seem to have stopped and I think my daughter will outgrow these rather than break them down...

[sk8tmum]

I'm probably the most biased parent around but WIFA's for us were problems from start to finish. Several other skaters at our rink who used to use WIFA's have no switched although it could also be about coach bias?

My daughter was in WIFA prima's. From what i remember they are a soft beginner boot but WFIA do seem heavier than some of the other beginner ones. We had issues because my daughter has very narrow feet and narrow ankles and even with a narrow width fitting I don't think we ever got them snug. Her first pair lasted 4 months before they broke down completely and her second pair (free replacement from the company) lasted 6 weeks! They said she must be a "heavy jumper".

She is now in Graf's (way heavier boot) - narrowest fit. They're still a bit too wide and we really have to pull them tight otherwise her feet move about (and tights without socks are a no no) - but all the "heavy jumper" comments seem to have stopped and I think my daughter will outgrow these rather than break them down...

We used the Skatec D at one point and found it an excellent boot. WIFA has also done some reconfiguration of their skates recently, IIRC.

But, my basic query is this: why are you using Grafs that are too wide - ????

[cazzie]

Off topic for original thread but the narrowest fit grafs seemed to be the least wide out of all the ones we tried. Fitter (and coaches) reckons with daughter's very narrow heel and ankle only custom made boots likely to fit properly. Waiting for growth to slow a bit before going to that expense - not sure if she'll be there in a years time. I think she's been through every major brand locally available - risports (which are narrowish) caused constant blisters as well.
Skatec-D are quite good but felt quite heavy and did feel wider around the ankle.

It would be good if WIFA do adjust their boots a bit though - think they've lost quite a few skaters to the lighter weight Edea's.

Re OP - do wonder about Prima in a child doing doubles if it is firm enough - but am absolutely not an expert on boot fitting.

[sk8tmum]

Off topic for original thread but the narrowest fit grafs seemed to be the least wide out of all the ones we tried. Fitter (and coaches) reckons with daughter's very narrow heel and ankle only custom made boots likely to fit properly. Waiting for growth to slow a bit before going to that expense - not sure if she'll be there in a years time. I think she's been through every major brand locally available - risports (which are narrowish) caused constant blisters as well.
Skatec-D are quite good but felt quite heavy and did feel wider around the ankle.

It would be good if WIFA do adjust their boots a bit though - think they've lost quite a few skaters to the lighter weight Edea's.

Re OP - do wonder about Prima in a child doing doubles if it is firm enough - but am absolutely not an expert on boot fitting.

Off topic, but, if you ask, Riedell and Jackson do split widths at no cost: we got that same problem solved for free - if you need a more drastic split width (we do A/AA for free for our DD) - they'll charge you a small amount for a bigger difference.

As for the doubles in light weight boots: underbooting is a strategy used deliberately by many coaches who want to avoid knee and hip problems and also to encourage deep knee bends, toe point, and soft landings: my 5'9" 135 pound skater with a 2A and the other "stuff" (big jumps too) - is in the equivalent of an S1 Klingbeil for strength, which is their lightest weight :)

[kssk8fan]

I think my daughter is "under booted" as well which I prefer. She's in the custom equivalent of the S1 klingbeil. She may be over bladed - advanced paramounts, but I couldn't handle the repititive blade problems, frequent shapenings, etc....

She adjusted fine to the blades a year or so ago and we won't switch again unless they go out of business and we're forced to switch.

I've always been curious as to why the rush to move up to higher/stiffer level boots. IMO it's the equivalent of getting longer and longer snow ski's. Yes, the pro's wear the super long ski's and theoretically you'll go faster but unless you're technically advanced, you'll regress on the slopes. Same with skates - the skaters won't learn to bend their knees, thus prohibiting them from learning moves and gaining deep edges >>> the foundations for learning/landing those beautiful jumps!

[Sessy]

She is now in Graf's (way heavier boot) - narrowest fit. They're still a bit too wide and we really have to pull them tight otherwise her feet move about (and tights without socks are a no no) - but all the "heavy jumper" comments seem to have stopped and I think my daughter will outgrow these rather than break them down...

Have you tried Risport? They're even narrower.

[Virtualsk8r]

Just about all skates are available for narrow feet. I suspect that many boot fitters are not really interested in going to the trouble of ordering the narrow boot for skaters - much easier to sell the boot sitting on the shelf to a parent that wants/needs them now.

My dd has extremely narrow feet -- and heels. She requires AAA or AAAA heels and AA or AAA feet, depending upon the brand. We have NEVER had to pay a fee for ordering stock boots that fit her feet.

My favorite skate is the Riedell 1500, which she has had about four pairs of.....but she has also worn Risport (when younger), Harlick, Wifa, Jackson and yes - two pairs of Graf -- although one pair dissolved during a competition when the heel separated from the sole during her program and the boots were about four months old.

So anyone that tells you that the major boot makers don't cater to narrow feet - is crazy. Boot fitters don't cater to narrow feet, but the boot makers do have stock options for you. All you have to do is ask.

And, yes -- we underboot her now after years of going with the stiffest boot and $$$ of physiotherapy. She destroys them all anyhow. The latest boot is a DJ 3300 (the entry level Elite) and she is doing 2A and triples at the senior level.