short program as qualifying round

[Artemis]

Does anyone else think it odd that, at the Olympics, only the top 24 out of 30 go on to skate the long program? I'm not against qualifying rounds per se, it just seems pointless and petty to have a qualifier, but then only knock out the bottom 6. I say either scrap the qualifier and let everyone skate the long, or else cut the list much shorter -- top 12 only, as they do in diving and the freestyle skiing events.

[MVM]

Yes, I think it´s odd too.
However, I think all of them should be allowed to skate the long program. It´s really sad that someone made it all the way to the Olympics with costume and everything and does not even get a chance to perform!!

[Isk8NYC]

We talked about this last night - it's so true. 24/30 isn't much a "qualifier."

It should be the top 12 or 18. (Assuming warmup groups of six)

Or, since the long programs are already prepared, just let everyone skate. It's a waste of money to get bumped from the LP. That's different from diving or freestyle skiing, where they've just prepared several dives that they can repeat/reuse.

I'm getting sick of the short program entirely. As you know, my new campaign (replacing the "No Announcers on SAP" campaign) is to increase the number of medal events for figure skating. Ditch the short program and replace it with a spin/jump/spiral/footwork competition that has no choreography or costuming. Let the Quads Commence without the Expense.

[Artemis]

Let the Quads Commence without the Expense.

LOL.

I'd also love to see synchro added to the Olympics. That's only one more set of medals ... but lots more participants.

[Isk8NYC]

LOL.

I'd also love to see synchro added to the Olympics. That's only one more set of medals ... but lots more participants.

DH pointed out that the hockey team members EACH get a gold medal. He asked me "Even the benchsitters." I would expect that to be the case - they're still team members, right?

In the US, Synchro been trying (unsuccessfully) to become a NCAA sport. NCAA isn't buying it because they don't feel there's enough demand to bring in yet another woman's sport that could take money away from the existing men's sports. (Title IX Rules)

I'd like to see it become an Olympic sport, but I'm not sure how that can happen.

I'm just so jealous - Ohno has four medals hanging around his neck, a record for the most medals and he's got another event to go. WTH can't figure skaters have multiple chances at medals, too? Enough BS of "Well, it's the ULTIMATE PRESSURE - all or nothing." I wanna see figure skaters have a chance at "most medals won in one games" and bring some extra bling to the medal counts.

[Artemis]

DH pointed out that the hockey team members EACH get a gold medal. He asked me "Even the benchsitters." I would expect that to be the case - they're still team members, right?

So long as they play in at least one game in the tournament, yes they're considered part of the team and they get a medal. (Makes for a frickin' long medal ceremony, though -- all those players x 3 teams, medals and flowers ... we had to wait forever to sing O Canada!)

I think it's different for every sport though -- in short-track relay teams, for example, I think they have to skate in the final race to get a medal.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I think it's different for every sport though -- in short-track relay teams, for example, I think they have to skate in the final race to get a medal.

Nope. Short track awards medals to anyone who skated in the qualifying race and/or the final. That happened to the American ladies team with their bronze - the skater who only skated qualifying still gets a medal. Same is true in swimming.

[Skittl1321]

Another board has it posted that there are suggestions for changes that would cut the number of skaters at ISU championships (so it might not affect the olympics, since they are a little different).

24 in the short, and 18 in the long.

That would be 25% of the skaters cut from short to long, which is greater than the current 20%.

I hope the proposal either doesn't actually come out, or doesn't pass. I think this is such a horrible idea though- small countries will have no chances to participate.

[Virtualsk8r]

Not fair that speed skaters, downhill and cross-country skiers, swimmers, divers, runners, etc. can do basically the same training for their sport (racing down a hill ) and enter multiple events at the Olympics so they can win multiple medals at each Games ......while figure skaters are given just once chance for a medal.

Let's be real here....a figure skater really can't train at the olympic level in pairs, singles and ice dancing. The sheer amount of skill acquisition, execution and technical finesse needed for each discipline is too great to sufficiently train well in more than one discipline. Going down a hill, a bobled track, swimming the same stroke over different distances, training a few different dives etc....is not the same as mastering triple, quad jumps, level 4 spins, exhausting footwork, lifts, throws and 4 minute programs.

So - divide the figure skating events into Short Program, Long Program, Compulsory Dance event, OD event, Freedance event...and Jump/Spin event (to keep the thrill seekers happy like the snowboard cross and freestyle cross events ).

More skaters can enter the events, TV would be happy because people tune in; more rivalries can be hyped and costs can be kept about the same because same amount of icetime would be required.

Any thoughts?

[Artemis]

While I'd love to see more figure skating at the Olympics (synchro!) ... I'm not so sure about breaking the competition down into component parts. I think that actually might take away from prestige of the event. If gold medals were given out for winners of the compulsary dance, I think that takes away from winning the overall ice dance competition.

Is it "fair" that divers, swimmers, runners, and speed skaters can win multiple medals but figure skaters can't? Well, no. But life isn't fair. It isn't "fair," either, that top figure skaters get big endorsements and can have lucrative pro careers, while gold-medal-winning lugers, bobsleighers, biathletes, and cross-country skiiers live below the poverty line. Figure skaters already benefit from the popularity and prestige of the sport.

And figure skating is not the only Olympic sport where winning multiple medals isn't possible. Look at hockey and curling -- they play multiple games that last well over an hour each, and there's still only one set of medals at the end. Compare that to 6 minutes on the ice for figure skaters ... what's "fair" there?

[RachelSk8er]

LOL.

I'd also love to see synchro added to the Olympics. That's only one more set of medals ... but lots more participants.

Logistically it won't happen unless we're willing to continue butchering synchro until it hardly resembles the sport that those of us who grew up doing it know. It's all about money.

To add synchro, under the current numbers, that means bringing in hundreds of additional athletes (there were 23 teams at Worlds last year. Teams can have 16 skaters + 4 alternates on an ISU roster, so that's an additional 400-460 athletes, plus I'm sure countries who we don't see every year at worlds would get a team together for the Olympics). It's not a sport like hockey where you've got these teams playing full games and packing arenas night after night and bringing in money. Between the short program (3 min) and long program (4.5 min), throwing in time to get on/off the ice and for scores, you get less than 10 minutes performance time out of each team. People try to use the argument that synchronized swimming is a summer Olympic sport, however, you only have 8-member teams and out of those 8 members, you also have your swimmers who compete the duo and trio events. Skating doesn't work like that. That would be like if we expected Evan Lysacek, Rachael Flatt, Caydee Denney, Jeremy Barrett, Meryl Davis and Charlie White to turn around and skate a synchro program after their singles/pairs/dance events were done.

They've cut the numbers of skaters on syncho teams down over the years...my first years most qualifying levels had 32, then around 93 they were cut down to 24, then starting in 99 they went down to 20, and in 08 they went down to 16. Some of this is in response to the changes in the sport (skating with much more speed and difficulty means less room in the rink, teams from developing-synchro countries having a hard time fielding teams, etc), but some of it also is in response to the attempt to get synchro to the Olympics. But how much more can you really cut the sport down and still have it be synchro? Not to mention the increase in cost per skater for coaching, ice time and everything else that cutting numbers causes, which took synchro from a cheap way to skate competitively to being just as costly as any other discipline (if not more, since now the expectation to continue and have high tests in singles/moves/dance is also there). 32 to 24 made sense, we were in the walls and it allowed the sport to go from marching/drill team to actual edges and skating...24 to 20 wasn't too bad either (to my old senior team it was a blessing, because it came right when we lost a lot of graduating HS seniors and would have otherwise really been struggling to fill the team with quality skaters). Then to make synchro more "exciting" and "appealing" to the non synchro crowd, in 99 they also started allowing featuring skaters (spinning and in corporation of more freestyle elements, and eventually lifts--what we now call moves in isolation). While it's "normal" now, many of us did NOT like that at first, etither. And then came the cut from 20 to 16, which was not very well received by many skaters in the countries that tend to have stronger/better teams, and it really took a while to sink in.

Most synchro skaters will tell you that, while they are not against progress and growth in the sport, they are absolutely against any further cuts in maximum numbers at the higher levels or other changes to make the sport more exciting to the rest of the skating community that would essentially change the sport as we know it to a great extent if that's what it takes to get into the Olympics. (Like back in '05 when teams had skaters doing axels during moves in isolation and all sorts of other spread out goofy stuff that resembled more of an ice show group number...very glad that phase is over.)

I remember back in the '90s, many of us were convinced that by Salt Lake City in '02, it would be there, especially when the first Worlds was planned for '00. (And I had my sights set on the university with one of the top teams in the country, so hell yeah I'd be going, right?) Here we are 8 yrs later, no Olympics.

[Isk8NYC]

While I'd love to see more figure skating at the Olympics (synchro!) ... I'm not so sure about breaking the competition down into component parts. I think that actually might take away from prestige of the event. If gold medals were given out for winners of the compulsary dance, I think that takes away from winning the overall ice dance competition.To me, it would create a new challenge: think of singles: there would be short program and free skate medalists who can't just win that event, they have to win by a high enough margin to win the overall medal. Instead of do-or-die for one medal, it would become a challenge to go for all three.

[Skittl1321]

To me, it would create a new challenge: think of singles: there would be short program and free skate medalists who can't just win that event, they have to win by a high enough margin to win the overall medal. Instead of do-or-die for one medal, it would become a challenge to go for all three.

Does anyone know how often under COP the olympic gold medalist has not won both parts of the competition? Or even more unlikely- has not won either part of the competition? Because if you win both parts and then win the "final" you get that last medal without doing anything really to get it. And it seems like 90% of the time the "overall" winner is going to be the winner of one of the parts- so I think the IOC is going to see that as just handing out an extra medal for no real reason. No unique skill was really demonstrated for the third medal, if there are 2 others already given out.

In gymnastics how is the all around score calculated? Is that done off the same scores that award medals for the invidiual aparatus? (At they Olympics...) I think that's still a different case, because you have aparatus specialists and then all around specialists who are usually "just good enough" on the apartatuses, or maybe have one that they are great at. In skating, while you have some skaters who do better in the short and the long, there really isn't much of a difference in skills set, except endurance, so they aren't showing anything different the way swimming events with different strokes (but no "all around" or "total" medal is awarded) or gymnastics with different aparatus are.

I don't think it's a good idea.

[TreSk8sAZ]

In gymnastics how is the all around score calculated? Is that done off the same scores that award medals for the invidiual aparatus? (At they Olympics...) .

In gymnastics, there is a qualifying day for the teams. I believe it's 4 up, 3 count. The 4 athletes that compete on each apparatus receive a score that qualifies them a) on the apparatus, b) for the all-around or c) both. Obviously there are some specialists that only try to qualify for one, whereas people like Nastia Liukin and Shawn Johnson go for the all-around.

There is a separate all-around competition and separate apparatus competitions, on different days and each with their own medals. There is also a team competition where it's 3 up 3 count for total score.

[Artemis]

Does anyone know how often under COP the olympic gold medalist has not won both parts of the competition? Or even more unlikely- has not won either part of the competition?

Where the overall winner did not win both parts, it's more common that she/he won the long but not the short. That's just because of the point value associated with the long being so much more than the short.

If someone wins the long but not the overall competition, it's usually because she/he was in 4th or 7th or 10th place after the short. So in that case, a "consolation medal" for winning the long might be nice.

[Mel On Ice]

I think the opportunity to separate the events for different medals was back when the short was introduced in the first place.

[RachelSk8er]

If someone wins the long but not the overall competition, it's usually because she/he was in 4th or 7th or 10th place after the short. So in that case, a "consolation medal" for winning the long might be nice.

I'm against any sort of "consolation medal" or splitting and creating new skating events. That's not the nature of our sport. That would be like giving separate medals for winning each game or round in other sports. That's not figure skating...it's not about going out and doing one jump or one step sequence or one program, it's about being able to put out the total package consistently.

Does anyone know how often under COP the olympic gold medalist has not won both parts of the competition? Or even more unlikely- has not won either part of the competition?

Well, it's only the 2nd Olympics under IJS and the only one to win both programs was Yu-Na Kim.

Pairs--Shen/Xhao won short with enough points to give them the gold, Pang and Tong won long
Men's--Evgeny won the short, Evan the long
Dance--Dominina/Shabalan were first after CD, after that it was all Virtue/Moir

Where the overall winner did not win both parts, it's more common that she/he won the long but not the short. That's just because of the point value associated with the long being so much more than the short.

Not necessarily true. You can win the short by a nice margin, lose the long by a fraction of a point, and still win. I've seen this happen quite a few times in synchro (I'm sure it's happened everywhere else too, I've just followed synchro scores more closely for these past years since IJS came along).

[Skittl1321]

all of it

Thanks! That's exactly what i was thinking- everything that gets a medal is a seperate competition. So to relate to figure skating their could be a long program and a short program medal, but unless there was a seperate "combined" competition, there wouldn't be a combined medal.

[Isk8NYC]

Thanks! That's exactly what i was thinking- everything that gets a medal is a seperate competition. So to relate to figure skating their could be a long program and a short program medal, but unless there was a seperate "combined" competition, there wouldn't be a combined medal.
I didn't know that either - I thought the components were part of the overall competition. But that doesn't mean it can't be done that way in Figure Skating.

I'm not talking about a "consolation medal." The skaters prepare TWO (or more) completely separate programs with costuming, choreography and music. They're separate events, but there's no reward other than the "winner takes all" combined scoring at the very end. I think the SP and LP program winners deserve the recognition of a job well-done in the way of a separate medal. The Overall winner can still be the highest combined total scorer.

[AgnesNitt]

I think they should bring back figures as a single sport (unrelated to singles sP and LP). With all the advances in lasers you could scan the ice for the accuracy scores leaving the judges to evaluate flow and style.
But I'm a weirdo living in my own little figures world. 8O

[Isk8NYC]

Hmmm...interesting idea. I wonder how many entrants there would have been in the Olympics following the loss of Compulsory Figures? There HAD to be some competitors who would have entered.

[FSWer]

Does anyone else think it odd that, at the Olympics, only the top 24 out of 30 go on to skate the long program? I'm not against qualifying rounds per se, it just seems pointless and petty to have a qualifier, but then only knock out the bottom 6. I say either scrap the qualifier and let everyone skate the long, or else cut the list much shorter -- top 12 only, as they do in diving and the freestyle skiing events.

Are you saying Art. That the REAL REASON to WHY they only did a H/A job of showeing the Skaters on NBC. is because...only 24 skaters get to go on to do their Long Programs? That doesn't make ANY SENSE!!! What about the other half of the skaters who don't EVER GET to Metal...as from what you say Art. It doesn't sound like the Olympics doesn't even give them a CHANCE to MEDAL. That would be like saying a Movie that comes out in the Theater you want to wait to see it on DVD....But then getting only 1/2 the Movie because the production company doesn't want to release all of it. It's the same thing. I also agree with you Art. on Synchro. in the Olympics. When will they ever decide about adding it? As it's been YEARS since they've last even just mentioned it.

[Isk8NYC]

Yeah, Art! *snickers*

FSWer, this isn't about NBC's broadcast schedule. NBC is in business to get viewers.
They feel that only the skaters expected to finish in the Top 10 need to be shown.
That frees up broadcast time for people who WANT to watch the other sporting events during the Olympics.
Simple as that, nothing personal, it's just their way of doing business.

What ArtEMIS brought up is the way that the Olympics singles skating events work now:

. There are 30 skaters who compete in the short program event.
. The top 24 finishers from the short program go on to compete in the long program (freeskate) event.


I don't know that I would really watch synchronized skating if there were that many teams. I think it's more of a spectacle for the eyes (in a good way) than fierce competition. I just wouldn't be able to "get into" a fight for the gold the same way that I do for the other figure skating events. I think synchro is more for pleasure of watching than agony of defeat. Probably because I refuse to skate synchro, although I might cave soon...