Irina Rodnina Rips Russian Skate Officials

[znachki]

Blames them for the Russian skaters dismal performance....


http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-features/news/newsid=444450.html?__source=msnhomepage&cid=

I told someone at work that the Russians performed dismally at these games - to which they said a silver and bronze was pretty good, how could that be a failure? I said - to the Russians it is.

I've been waiting for something like this to surface.

[Isk8NYC]

They'd be better off hiring Tom Z. to teach them how IJS works than getting a diplomat to make connections. That just screams "let's cheat together, yeah, yeah, yeah."

[VtSkateLvr]

Irina made it clear: Do the politics. If Plushy and coach are saying no one is a champion unless he does a quad, the smart opponents will point out his jazz hands and wiggle-hips and bad transitions. If you do not counter that, forget it. Also, learn the point system and stop front-loading jumps and kinda boring us for the last half of the program! Sheesh.

Irina is right that as things stand at this time the Russian powers-that-be should indeed have been sucking up to one and all in a position to maybe help.

Please note: I am in the camp that says Evan deserved to win. This is intellectual discussion.

Whisper campaigns can be very effective. A Russian who grew up in the shadow of Stalin knows that darn well, and no I am not blaming her or being sarchastic -- she really does know how things are maybe being done in skating and how to work it. She must have some searing memories from her career after all.

[navkamarov]

I think they are just in a transitionary period before Sochi.

Also since the fall of the USSR, Russia hasn't done that well in the judging events at Olympics in North America. Salt Lake City wasn't amazing for them and in the gymnastics in Atlanta without Nemov they did poorly.

I'm confident that Russia and other European countries will be back on top in Sochi. 8-)8-)

[znachki]

I think what surprised me most about the Russian response to their "fail" - is that they were surprised. Consider:

1) Change in the scoring system. While there is still room for off ice deals and the like, it is much harder to work it. Also, Russian can't rely on former Soviet sattelites to fall in line. They knew that their skaters had benefitted in the past, how could they not realize that it was no longer as available? Yes, the fall happened 20 years ago now - but those folks are still judging. And of course, not adjusting to the COP to maximize points.

2) The Soviet skating machine no longer exists. Obvious, isn't it? But I think we've finally just seen the death throes. Not even so much in this group of skaters, but in the fact that there are no apparent sucessors waiting in the wings. Pluschenko was paid to return, and who is next? This is the first time since, well, forever, that I can't even tell you the name of the 2nd rank skaters for Russia. They used to be stacked up waiting their turn.

I'm sure that this is nothing we all here hadn't thought of...why couldn't they? (that's rhetorical btw - I have my theory - but it involves Russian history, politics and etc,)

[Isk8NYC]

From the article
"The national federation's top officials shouldn't sit pompously at the stands during the competitions but should contact their colleagues, referees, to form relations with them and to be a part of the interantional federation's life," Rodnina said.
"But serious people in the figure skating world do not want to deal with him. They have no respect for him," she added.
"Meanwhile, Piseyev's reputation is not just the reputation of a single person as he represents the entire country." Hoping for politics to put them back on top is absurd. The new judging system was designed to stop the politics and backroom dealings. It's ignorant of her to publicly propose that Russia try to force a return to those dark days.

As for their "return to glory" it will only happen if they get on board the IJS by bringing in consultants to teach their coaches how to score the most points in programs and by developing more well-balanced programs.

Successors will probably come from the ex-patriot ranks in the US and elsewhere if there's truly no more Russian Skating Program. Is it true that Plushenko was paid to return? I somehow think Sasha got a payoff for Nationals, but there's no chatter about that.

Yes, the current skating federation in Russia should be ashamed - no one questions the skaters' talent or skill. The problem is that they've inflated their skaters' egos to the point where they thought they were invincible and the IJS system didn't apply to them. The fact that their coaches were oblivious to what the competition was doing in programs is silly. Did they really think a circus trick would be enough to win?

I'd like to see Australia become more of a force than Russia.

[navkamarov]

I think it is unfair to assume they did deals and had allies rigging scores for them. They were still always the best when they won up until Torino, like in the ice dance there none of the others were up to the Navka/Kostomarov standard.

[Isk8NYC]

Okay, it's unfair, although I never said that in my post so don't blame me if you're overly sensitive. If you think that backroom dealings never happened, I suggest an eye-opening trip to the library to read up on the politics of figure skating. There are many books available. Don't let yourself remain naive and assume that Russia's success was all talent.

However, it was the French and Russians who were accused in 2002 of swapping ice dance and pairs scoring. That was the impetus that led to IJS. Maybe this is the Russian and French hell on earth - neither country has done spectacularly well under IJS but it's not because of favoritism. It's because of stubbornness and ignorance plus the reliance on imbalanced programs and a focus on circus tricks.

In any event, that's what Rodnina is suggesting - finding political allies in skating who would be more likely to support the Russian dynasty. It's a foolish waste of time. They'd be better off focusing on building a real skating organization that understands the judging system and can guide their skaters properly when they get off the correct track.

[navkamarov]

I just see it as being underlying Russophobia the way some of them are critized in figure skating and gymnastics for winning, like the way Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze were being blamed by some elements of the media over a situation they had nothing to do with. The media who crowned Sale/Pelliter champions before the competition even began.

Also as a European the European routines of France and Russia are the more appealing to me and before Vancouver I knew they would never do well. Since I could only properly follow the ice dance in Vancouver with the time difference and college, overall I prefered the European routines.

Although I liked V/M FD, there was no WOW factor for me like with Navka/Kostomarov 4 years previously.

But obviously I have a European bias.:mrgreen:

[Isk8NYC]

That's too bad for you then since the future of Russian skating is not going to be based on their past.
I disliked their performances four years ago and I hated this year's "Satchel Girl" dances and costuming.

Yet, it was the scoring that brought them down. You need to compare their old scores to their new ones and look at their competitors. They were blown away because they rested on their laurels while their competitors developed more strongly and on target.

You should tone down your "Russiaphobia" and cheerleading though, because it discredits you as a contributor.
If you can't find a single thing wrong with their performance this year, you're more than biased - you're blindly loyal.
They really don't need more "yes men/women" to kiss their butts and delude them into thinking they are The Best.
That was their downfall this year.

They need honest evaluations, which is what most of the people on this board have given.

Do some research and uncover the truth by considering both points of view.

[navkamarov]

I realised they had issues with their preformances and I knew they would never win with Shabalin and his problems, even before the injury he had problems.

I personally find the choreography more exciting and dynamic in the European routines. Although I liked Belbin/Agosto in Torino, and Nagasu is my fave ladies skater right now so its not like I am hating on the North Americans. Just recently the female half of the dance partnerships have become so blah, Belbin and Bourne (irish dance Nagano:lol::lol:) had charisma and presence but I don't see that in Virtue or Davis.

Also I didn't like all those straps on Domnina either, I could see where the thinking outside the box was but it didn't work, same with the aboriginal, it didn't work despite the fact they were thinking outside the box.
Honestly it was a poor year for the Europeans in general but as I said, we are transitioning, just wait for Sochi where I have a feeling the Russians will win a lot only because of it being at home for them and they will be so determined now after Vancouver. I'd like to see Bobrova and Soloviev pick up a medal in Sochi.

[AgnesNitt]

I don't think that Rodina was talking about 'cheating' per se when she said that the Russian skating federation needs to be part of the ISU life. There could be other interpretations:
1. The russian federation needs to understand the implications of the rules better--I think we all agree that they didn't
2. The russian federation could get in and influence the rules. That cuts both ways--other countries already are contributing, and everyone skates against the same rules.

[kayskate]

Rodnina quote from article:
"I hope that the federation will elect somebody else for the post at its special meeting later this year. We need a fresh and unbiased person in the post. And the new federation head should rathre be a highly-skilled manager than a figure skating specialist."

Just my take on the article and quote above. To me it sounds like she wants someone who will understand the current system. She also claims he should be accountable for spending, for which he is apparently responsible. I did not take the interview to mean she is looking for deals but understanding of what current Russian skaters need to win in the new system as well as how money is being managed to meet those needs.

Kay

[Isk8NYC]

Well, the sentence structure is a little unusual - you have to read it a few times to see that she doesn't believe that a "figure skating specialist" is what they need. To me, a "figure skating specialist" would be (a) person(s) familiar with the IJS system, no?

She wants a "highly skilled MANAGER" rather than a "figure skating specialist." She's dismissing a "figure skating specialist." If you read the full piece, she definitely says that this "highly skilled manager" has to establish ties with other skating federation heads and referees. The latter is why I think she's talking about glad-handing, not learning about IJS. Maybe the translation is off, but I think she means the ISU officials. Irina wants to replace Valentin Piseyev (Russian skating fed chief) with someone who can rub elbows with the international figure skating community. To what end?

Several people (not me) have remarked that Plushenko was paid by the Russian Federation to return for his comeback. She makes a comment about spending and fiscal accountability, so she feels that's more important than an IJS specialist. Perhaps the paid comeback is what she's addressing, or she's just frustrated that they spent their budget and haven't accounted for it yet. But she holds someone else responsible for the fiscal management - Leonid Tyagachev, head of the Russian Olympic Committee.

Maybe something's been lost in translation or maybe she means that this "highly skilled manager" can bring in the needed specialists, but that's not reported in the article.

[Isk8NYC]

I don't think that Rodina was talking about 'cheating' per se when she said that the Russian skating federation needs to be part of the ISU life. There could be other interpretations:
1. The russian federation needs to understand the implications of the rules better--I think we all agree that they didn't
2. The russian federation could get in and influence the rules. That cuts both ways--other countries already are contributing, and everyone skates against the same rules.
Your first point is well-taken but the Russian people are really well-educated. They could easily have an analyst crunch the IJS rulebook and compare it to various skating competition results to figure out what to do. Honestly, they could probably come up with a strategy for every possible judging panel combination, knowing what the particular tech specialist looks for in jump landings.

Learning the IJS doesn't involve diplomacy. You just need some videos, a rulebook and optimally, someone to teach you the ropes.

However, influencing new rules and changes is a good point, I agree. If the head of the Russian Skating Federation has alienated his counterparts, that's an obstacle. Perhaps that is what she's talking about.

Plushenko and his entourage are all b******* about how the Quad Should Be Worth More Points. There's an IJS proposal in the works to change the scoring for underrotated jumps in lieu of downgrading to the next lower level jump. So triples would no longer be downgraded to doubles - they'd be scored as "UR" (UnderRotated), receiving lower points, but not as low as a double.

This new rule change wouldn't have allowed Plushenko to win, however. His negative GOEs on jumps, poorly balanced program, and lower-level footwork/spins were what cost him the medal. He gave away the points that would have let him win.

[Query]

If my part of the U.S. is representative, the U.S. and Canada are successful in producing good skaters (in some areas) right now partly because so many of the best Russian and East European skaters and coaches came to the U.S. and Canada to train and coach.

I knew a person in a local USFSA club who worked to bring some of them here.

Even some non-U.S. skaters come to U.S. and Canada to train with those and other coaches. During the cold war U.S. government financed research and education money attracted good scientists and engineers from all over the world into a deliberate "brain drain". (Less so now.) Now the private sector and local clubs have somehow financed a sports drain of similar nature. And the remnants of the brain drain has brought to America many of the well to do families whose children could be the next generation of skaters. Many of the skaters at the Olympics who weren't officially Russian had Russian sounding names or coaches with Russian sounding names.

Maybe when she talks about a good manager, she means someone who will pay their best people to stay and coach in Russia - or to import people from elsewhere.

[navkamarov]

If my part of the U.S. is representative, the U.S. and Canada are successful in producing good skaters (in some areas) right now partly because so many of the best Russian and East European skaters and coaches came to the U.S. and Canada to train and coach.

I knew a person in a local USFSA club who worked to bring some of them here.

Even some non-U.S. skaters come to U.S. and Canada to train with those and other coaches. During the cold war U.S. government financed research and education money attracted good scientists and engineers from all over the world into a deliberate "brain drain". (Less so now.) Now the private sector and local clubs have somehow financed a sports drain of similar nature. And the remnants of the brain drain has brought to America many of the well to do families whose children could be the next generation of skaters. Many of the skaters at the Olympics who weren't officially Russian had Russian sounding names or coaches with Russian sounding names.

Maybe when she talks about a good manager, she means someone who will pay their best people to stay and coach in Russia - or to import people from elsewhere.


I also think this annoys the Russian skaters, to see fellow Russians coaching other countries. Its all one way traffic apart from Becky Hammon in the Basketball. :lol::lol:

[jazzpants]

More food for thought:

http://sports.espn.go.com/olympics/winter/2010/news/story?id=4955805

[Query]

I also think this annoys the Russian skaters, to see fellow Russians coaching other countries. Its all one way traffic apart from Becky Hammon in the Basketball. :lol::lol:

Two words: Yuko Kawaguchi!

Some U.S. athletes change their citizenship (or gain joint citizenship) to countries with less internal competition in hopes of going to the Olympics too.

You can read too much into these things. The original quote could always reflect internal politics or personality conflicts, or one particular poor athlete-turned-administrator, or a coach who would prefer the national organization stay out of her way, as a non-skater might.

Can't tell you about the rest of the world, but the U.S. no longer has much Russia-phobia. This might seem even worse, but the average (U.S.) American probably views Russia as having too much internal conflict (like this!) to be much of a threat. Perhaps the Russian leadership wishes we were more concerned with Russia.

[navkamarov]

I agree those nationality changes happen a lot in sport (never to Ireland's benefit:roll:), I actually forgot about Yuko.

But I was just giving that as a possible reason why they get so pissed sometimes.

Another site I visted (not skating related) was claiming that Russia must have bribed the IOC to pick Sochi in 2014. So I do think there is definatly still some Russophobia around.

[Isk8NYC]

I think that people who LOOK to be offended often get their wish, lol.

Your accusations of anti-russian feelings in the US and other countries are unfounded. Period. Let it go already.

[navkamarov]

I think that people who LOOK to be offended often get their wish, lol.


Thats like what Ann Coulter would say. It suddenly Russia's fault that they are being accused of bribing officials and the IOC.

A Canadian told me one of their commentators referred to one of the European routines as EuroTrash, so maybe it isn't just Russophobia.

[fenway]

I understand their competitive spirit but I actually find this re-building period to be quite interesting. Maybe it has something to do w/ the fact that I actually enjoy parity in sports.