SPOILER - USFSA vs Plushenko; Phantom of the Opera

[Query]

One of the NBC commentators claimed Plushenko would probably have won by the rules that he competed by at the previous Olympics.

The new IJS Rules give less emphasis to high rotation jumps and somewhat more emphasis on footwork and artistic elements.

Evan adapted to the new rules much better.

But there is an interesting interpretation possible here, if you love conspiracy theories.

As I understand it, USFSA (USFS? They are still inconsistent in their publications) pushed hard for the new judging rules.

Now, in the U.S., a fairly high fraction of male figure skaters are effeminate in manner and styles of motion, e.g., Weir. They are certainly stronger than the average Joe, but the Russian skaters I have seen are all big, tall, and incredibly strong. (Then again, the Russian skaters who move abroad may include the cream of the crop.) I don't know how much of that is cultural and how much is genetic -there are some pretty small Russians too, like Russian pairs coach Tamara Moskvina. But it is a fairly good bet that gives the average male U.S. figure skater a disadvantage in jumps next to the Russians, but an advantage in artiistic elements - and the reverse for Russians.

So, if you believe in conspiracy theories :twisted:, USFSA pushed the new IJS for the purpose of helping effiminate U.S. figure skaters at the expense of strong masculine Russian skaters.

Is such a conspiracy theory implausible? Maybe. But remember that the stated charter purpose of the USFSA is to try to make sure U.S. figure skaters win in ISU competitions.

---

OK, now for the application of all this controversy:

Stars on Ice hires them both.

The music and costumes come from Phantom of the Opera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of_the_opera).

Plushenko, wearing a mask, plays Erik. But we have to see his face, true to Dick button's contention that Plushenko has the perfect evil villain look.

He abducts Christine, played by the lovely Tanith Belbin (Weir's Olympic roomate).

Evan plays Raoul. He rescues Christine from the clutches of the evil Erik.

Moskvina (what a wonderful personality!) makes an appearance as La Sorelli.

I'm not sure how to use Weir.

Comments?

[AgnesNitt]

\
I'm not sure how to use Weir.

Comments?

The Angel of Music of course.

[rlichtefeld]

USFSA did not Push for the IJS. It was pushed by Octavio Cinquanto - the President of the ISU. The USFSA had input, but it does not have some of the feature that the US was wanting.

I was at the Governing Council when Eldridge, etal, attempted to create a new governing body for the sport. The US was very happy with the 6.0 system, but just wanted more accountability for judges that were caught cheating.

Isn't it amazing that the judges caught cheating in Salt Lake City are back judging, but the the person that blew the whistle is OUT.

Rob

[icedancer2]

Well, it's hard to say what the NBC commentator actually meant by this - when Plush won gold in 2006 it was under IJS - but I think the base value of the quad is lower now than it was in 2006 as those involved we concerned that the skaters were seriously injuring themselves in the quest for the m ost quads. How many stories have we read about Timothy Gable living in constant pain and Stephane Lambiel barely able to walk.

I don't think the Russian skaters are overall larger and more masculine than the North American skaters - I mean, I stood next to Ilia Kulik at some comp or another and was amazed at how slight he was. And the Russian skaters have had their share of injuries and surgeries mostly related to skating - Yagudin had a congenital hip problem that I believe was exacerbated by skating and Plush himself had a major knee or hip injury over the last few years.

So yeah I think the commentator, whoever they may be, were pretty ridiculous in conjecturing this whole idea - conspiracy theory or not - this one just does not hold up in my book!

[Isk8NYC]

I'm a conspiracy buff, so I could buy into this, but I don't think the US was the country pushing for IJS. I think it was CANADA in the BACKROOM with the COP. Just kidding, lol. Couldn't resist a Clue reference.

Seriously now, the US wasn't an IJS advocate.

Here's an off-topic question: how/when are judges' scores audited for accuracy, consistency and fairness? While I'm sure a controversial defeat such as Plushenko's leads to questions, is there any auditing built into the system?

(I know I'm being lazy and could probably look it up in the IJS Rulebook, but I'd probably mis-read the information anyway. I've screwed up six times in the last week.)

[MQSeries]

Now, in the U.S., a fairly high fraction of male figure skaters are effeminate in manner and styles of motion, e.g., Weir. They are certainly stronger than the average Joe, but the Russian skaters I have seen are all big, tall, and incredibly strong.

Huh? Since Russian single skaters, excluding Plushy, currently aren't very successful on the international scene, the only Russian skaters we see commonly on TV are the in pairs skating or sometimes ice-dancing. Of course the male skaters in those disciplines have to be strong and are often "big" to support their females partners.

Speaking of skating in an effeminate manner, I find many of the preening and posing that Plushy does out on the ice to be highly effiminate by Western standard.

[AgnesNitt]

And yet another conspiracy theory gets into the fray.
It has the theme of:
:oAll hail, Frank Caroll, Master of Manipulation! (http://auntjoyceicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2010/02/art-of-international-politics.html#comments):o

[Query]

The important to understand about conspiracy theories is that if some of the facts look wrong, that just means there has been a cover up.

---

>MQSeries wrote:
>Since Russian single skaters, excluding Plushy, currently aren't
>very successful on the international scene

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plushenko) says Plushenko "is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time World Champion, six-time European Champion, a four-time Grand Prix Final champion and an eight-time (1999-2002, 2004-2006, 2010) Russian national champion."

We should all be so "unsuccessful".

---

Let's see if we can't expand on the potential "Phantom of the Opera" show.

Angel of Music! Oh. Of course! I missed the reference altogether.

[techskater]

IJS was used at the last Olympics when Plushy won. People have better learned how to "play the system" since Torino, Evan being one of the best. The Quad is worth MORE than it was in Torino, but Plushy did 2 in the FS in Torino and they treated it more like a coronation and everyone quaked in their skates!!

[AgnesNitt]

(russian skaters) are certainly stronger than the average Joe, but the Russian skaters I have seen are all big, tall, and incredibly strong.




Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plushenko) says Plushenko "is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time World Champion, six-time European Champion, a four-time Grand Prix Final champion and an eight-time (1999-2002, 2004-2006, 2010) Russian national champion."


It also says he is 5'10 which is hardly 'tall'. Johnny Weir is only an inch shorter.

[Query]

:bow:

Next to me, 5'10" is tall.

My mental picture is based on 3 male Russian and Ukranian Ice Dance coaches, Genrikh Sretenski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Sretenski) (6'1"), Alexei Kiliakov (http://www.wisa.us/coaches/alexei.html) and Dmytri Ilin (http://www.wisa.us/coaches/dmitry.html), who I've had the privilege of taking a few lessons from. I think all are taller than the average skating male.

They all look strong. Alexei and Dmytri make their students work very hard on strength, endurance and flexibility.

I've watched Alexei pick up adult female students without asking them to jump into position. And saw him lin up his girl students in front of his maybe 10-13 your old boy students, and had the boys pick up the girls (with jumps), one after the other.

Of course they are a biased sample, next to the more typical U.S. coaches I've seen teach here - they all have stronger competitive backgrounds than the typical U.S. coach, which is maybe why they were able to afford to come to the U.S. to coach. [If Plushenko comes here to coach, I'm certain he will find students. So would Tamara Moskvina. I'm not so certain of Weir - he speaks Russian, but some parents might be scared of him.]

And it always helps for male dance and pairs skaters to be taller than their partners, and strong enough to lift them, so maybe successful male ice dance skaters in general tend to be reasonably tall and strong.

I suppose it is possible the average Russian or East European skater isn't really taller and stronger than the average skater outside Russia.

[RachelSk8er]

IJS was used at the last Olympics when Plushy won. People have better learned how to "play the system" since Torino, Evan being one of the best. The Quad is worth MORE than it was in Torino, but Plushy did 2 in the FS in Torino and they treated it more like a coronation and everyone quaked in their skates!!

I agree.

Plushenko's silver medal is his own fault. In 2006, front-loading a program with jumps and then doing everything else was good enough to win. That doesn't work in 2010, because since then the system has evolved and people realized that yes, the PCS mark is actually an important place to pick up points (frankly I'm shocked they tied here, 5 seconds of hip gyration and weird jazz finger hand movements does not, to me, constitute choreography). Evgeni had over a minute of his program left and all of his jumps completed. Had he moved just 2 more of his jumps past the 2:15 point to pick up the bonus (and landed them clean and garnered postivie GOEs), that could have been enough to win. If you don't know how to work the judging system under which you compete, it's your/your coach's fault.

I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand?

[phoenix]

Ice dancers are almost uniformly taller than singles skaters, and most pairs skaters. Evan is VERY tall for a singles skater. Most tend to be on the lower side of 5'6" or so--easier to do the big jumps when your body is tiny.

Dance, on the other hand, favors long legs & powerful stroking, thus favoring a taller skater.

Pairs can be deceiving--on tv the guys look huge, but that's because you're seeing them standing next to a 5' or less tiny girl. I was shocked when I met Rocky Marvel in person--he's SHORT!! lol

So--my point is, 3 Russian ice dancers are definitely not a good sampling of how Russian male skaters are built--except for probably other ice dancers.

[Query]

I still don't get how Plushenko could be seen as unsuccessful. Even if you leave out his prior medals, an Olympic silver medal would normally be seen as a pretty good sign of success. If he comes to DC to coach, potential students will come running.

And the controversy would only help. Maybe he's taking the free publicity into account.

[RachelSk8er]

I still don't get how Plushenko could be seen as unsuccessful. Even if you leave out his prior medals, an Olympic silver medal would normally be seen as a pretty good sign of success. If he comes to DC to coach, potential students will come running.

It's based on his perception. To him, anything other than gold was a failure. To the rest of us, a guy coming out of several years of retirement and placing 2nd at the Olympics is a huge accomplishment.

[Isk8NYC]

For the record, I hated Phantom of the Opera, but isn't the "Angel of Music" really Erik in disguise? So how can the same character be played by two different actors? Weir will just have to be the overly dramatic opera guy who gets knifed in the chest towards the end of the musical. Not sure about who can be the opera diva though. Weir will have to wear a fat suit...it's okay, he likes dress up.

It sort of makes you wonder if the Russian skating federation "gets" IJS at all. There's an opportunity for someone who does understand how to work the system to make some money educating them.

What's odd is that all of the fans who are decrying IJS and bemoaning the Big Trick don't sound like they get it, either.

Ignorance begets whining, I guess. They feel helpless and insecure, so they complain loudly.

If Plushenko doesn't want his silver medal, the guys in 3rd and 4th place would be willing to step up and take it from him.


I will say that this event made it clear that IJS isn't all that simple to comprehend. As much as we would like to say "completed maneuvers=points" it's far more than that: timing, +/- GOEs, plus artistry are all involved. The sport is complicated to begin with, but I think that trying to quantify that complexity created more layers of complexity.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I don't think anyone is claiming Pluskenko isn't succesful. MQSeries' quote said the rest of the Russian single skaters aren't that successful right now.

Huh? Since Russian single skaters, excluding Plushy, currently aren't very successful on the international scene, the only Russian skaters we see commonly on TV are the in pairs skating or sometimes ice-dancing.

Plushenko has had a lot of past success. However, past success doesn't mean you can ignore the rules, skate sloppy, and expect to be handed a gold medal.

[Query]

With the revealing outfits Johnny Weir loves to wear, a fat suit would be a major relief from what we currently have to view.

The Angel of Music (http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/phantomoftheoperathe/angelofmusic.htm) is Christine's imaginary concept of an unknown party helping her, who turns out to be Erik. He has done her great good, but is tempted and falls from grace. A reference to Christian theology: Satan was an Angel of Music before his fall. Perhaps a reference to the muses of music and dance.

[Johnny really had fun with that idea, didn't he?]

You have a point. Weir would have to morph into Plushenko. Hard to perform live. Perhaps a flash of hellfire and smoke, with a sprinkle of flowers and pink lace?

---

Controversy and the incomprehensibility of the rules must be some of why so many people watch figure skating. So it's good for the sport. Trying to bury controversy was a bad idea. Thank goodness it failed.

---

Because some of us can't understand IJS: Have the NBC commentators made any gross mis-statements about how stuff is judged, or have they finally understood IJS? (I don't mean errors they miss that they later catch on replay.) What specifically?

[Isk8NYC]

Johnny Weir could wear a Mickey Mouse costume, complete with head, and still rock the house with his skating. He could even play BOTH the Opera guy and diva! (No slight against his DNA intended.)

To his credit, Scott Hamilton must have studied hard before the Olympics because I didn't hear him make any verbal missteps in discussing scoring. He chose his words and phrases carefully regarding the judging aspects and who would be making what determinations. (Judges vs tech specs, downgrades vs. GOE)

Hamilton confused a lot of people during the US Nats by saying that edge calls would cause the judges to downgrade a jump.

For example, during a flutz during a skater's program, Hamilton said it would be "downgraded by the judges."
A judge/IJS scholar here pointed out that the Tech Specialist identifies the edge call and leaves it up to the Judges to adjust the GOE accordingly.

At the end of the competition, a flutz can cause you to lose points.
That's the bottom line.

One of our members pointed out that's he should use the correct terminology. As an IT person, I know it's just semantics, but many judges and IJS scholars get frustrated that people aren't using the correct terms. I've worked with a lot of people who want to use the latest buzzwords in IT and think less of anyone who doesn't use their "acronym of the day" calendar regularly. I'd rather cut someone some slack if I know what they meant.

[Query]

I originally thought Johnny Weir's costume completely repulsive, and his off-ice behavior unseemly.

But understanding how the "Angel of Music" connects with the complicated multi-layer symbolism of the Phantom, the Satan of Christian theology (I'm surprised certain elements of the religious Christian community haven't made more public comments on this), and the classical Greek Muse(s) of music, as well as with Johnny's costumes (clipped wings and all), his off-ice behavior leading up to the Olympics, and his rooming with Tanith, I have changed my mind.

Together with an on-ice performance that was arguably the most interesting men's freestyle event artistically, it was all a gloriously choreographed performance that ties together in a consistent way.

Fabulous.

[dbny]

Speaking of skating in an effeminate manner, I find many of the preening and posing that Plushy does out on the ice to be highly effiminate by Western standard.

Plushenko has seemed effeminate to me from the first time I saw him skate, so much so, that I am convinced his marriage to a woman is social camo - not that I care. The Russians, however, are highly homophobic.

I have stood next to Yagudin (both of us in skates) and would call him short and wiry.

[coconut]

And yet another conspiracy theory gets into the fray.
It has the theme of:
:oAll hail, Frank Caroll, Master of Manipulation! (http://auntjoyceicecreamstand.blogspot.com/2010/02/art-of-international-politics.html#comments):o

That author has some valid points.

I am wondering if anyone knows why nbcolympics.com does not have all top 6 men's free skate except Lysacek and Chan.

For ladies' short program, only Nagasu's video is available now. I understand that the event ended not long ago so they may not have time to put up. But only one video and it happens to be Caroll's student's?

I just wanted to watch individual replays and I don't understand why Silver and Bronze medal performances, plus USA's own Johnny Weir, do not deserve to have their own videos.

[Isk8NYC]

Unless NBC has taken them down, I linked all of the top men's LP's in this post: http://www.skatingforums.com/showpost.php?p=410652&postcount=59

[let`s talk]

Plushenko has seemed effeminate to me from the first time I saw him skate, so much so, that I am convinced his marriage to a woman is social camo - not that I care. The Russians, however, are highly homophobic.

I have stood next to Yagudin (both of us in skates) and would call him short and wiry.

So what? If somebody is short and wiry he is ... what? And talls guys never do it? Sorry, I do not understand.
If Plush or Yag were gays, it wouldn`t be a secret. At least one of their lovers would give a pre-paid interview to NBC or ESPN or papers.

[coconut]

Unless NBC has taken them down, I linked all of the top men's LP's in this post: http://www.skatingforums.com/showpost.php?p=410652&postcount=59

Thank you! These are not accessible through the event pages. I am glad that videos are available because I don't have a TV.

[dbny]

So what? If somebody is short and wiry he is ... what? And talls guys never do it? Sorry, I do not understand.
If Plush or Yag were gays, it wouldn`t be a secret. At least one of their lovers would give a pre-paid interview to NBC or ESPN or papers.

My comments about Plushenko and Yagudin were in reference to the following:


Now, in the U.S., a fairly high fraction of male figure skaters are effeminate in manner and styles of motion, e.g., Weir. They are certainly stronger than the average Joe, but the Russian skaters I have seen are all big, tall, and incredibly strong.


Ever heard of the phrase "open secret?" Like I already said, I don't care, I was just refuting Query's comments.

[Query]

These are not accessible through the event pages. I am glad that videos are available because I don't have a TV.

I pointed out in another thread the full events live feeds and replays are available a few clicks from their home page. Much more complete than the TV broadcasts.

For replays, Go to http://NBCOlympics.com, click on Video, then Live and Full Replays, then Full Event Replays, then on the appropriate event, like "Figure Skating: Men's -- Short Program" or "Figure Skating: Men's -- Free Skate", and click on "Full Replay".

If the list of events is too long for you, look for "Figure Skating". Most PC browsers let you do that by typing in "Control-F", then hitting F3 or Enter to find subsequent occurrences.

As mentioned in the other thread, you need Microsoft Silverlight and Internet Explorer or Firefox, and a fast connection.

You can freely view TV broadcasts on your PC. I have some links at at http://mgrunes.com/mybookmark.html#tv, but haven't updated them recently. Some sites require you to install software. And there are more than a few $5/month or so services that do the same thing. Many broadcast stations and some networks provide video feeds too.

Oops That method stopped working - they say it requires premium service. Go instead to http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/live-full-replays.html, click on full event replays, and look for the event there. If that doesn't work, click on "As seen on TV" instead of "Full Replay". If that doesn't work, give up.

[NCSkater02]

If that doesn't work, give up.

That's often my favorite solution with the addition of a few four letter words. (Under my breath if I'm on-ice with the kids)