How can I convince my dd that doubles come and go at first?

[momof3chicks]

She is only 9, and has successfully done double sal, double toe, double loop and almost double flip, but sometimes she goes for days falling on the landing of one or all of them and she gets frustrated. She is incredibly close all the time- doesn't under rotate or anything, just doesn't quite stand up on the landing.

Her coach and I keep trying to tell her that it isn't odd at all for that to happen and for it to take a while to be consistent on all the jumps and that most kids go through this.

She gets so frustrated that it is hard for her to make progress some days. Any advice other that keep telling her and encouraging her?

[mdvask8r]

I would bet that her coach is already telling her this, but you can emphasize it to her too:

Whenever an element is "not working" she should go back to the first, most basic drills and exercises her coach gave her to learn the element. Work thru all the drills in progression before trying the jump again. Take care to do each exercise very correctly. This should teach her to make "fixes" on her own without allowing frustration to creep in.

If the jump does not work 3X in a row, it should be back to the exercises before making another attempt. Otherwise, she is just committing mistakes to muscle memory.

Also, remind her that she must FIGHT for every landing even if it feels a bit off. If she falls, or two-foots the landing, she MUST get up QUICKLY and push into a strong landing position EVERY TIME. Can't emphasize enough how important this is.

Sounds like she's very determined! She'll get there.

[momof3chicks]

I would bet that her coach is already telling her this, but you can emphasize it to her too:

Whenever an element is "not working" she should go back to the first, most basic drills and exercises her coach gave her to learn the element. Work thru all the drills in progression before trying the jump again. Take care to do each exercise very correctly. This should teach her to make "fixes" on her own without allowing frustration to creep in.

If the jump does not work 3X in a row, it should be back to the exercises before making another attempt. Otherwise, she is just committing mistakes to muscle memory.

Sounds like she's very determined! She'll get there.

That is a good idea, I did see her doing the exercises yesterday on the double sal, and sure enough, on the 3rd attempt there it was. I also told her if she gets overly frustrated, maybe go onto something else for a while (like spins she is working on) and then go back to the jumps later.

She is very determined, sometimes I think she cares too much- but hopefully with maturity, she will learn to channel it more positively. I mean, she does sometimes, but not always.

[sk8tmum]

We ourselves just refuse to get caught up in the angsting. We just shrug and say "well, that's the way it works in skating" - suggest that they relax, and then let it go. If they want to chat about strategies, we listen, but, if it gets to the point of circling around and negative talk, we end it there.

I have 2 high nAch kids. They are intensely competitive, intensely driven, and easily frustrated. By taking this approach, we've helped them to learn to relax. Otherwise, they would have burnt out and quit, which is what I've seen quite a number of kids do.

What I often see is that the parents foster the anxiety. They constantly ask "how's the axel? Did the double work today? Did you talk to your coach? What did she say? Did she give you exercises to do? Have you done them ... etc etc etc." Parents who get caught up in the "Sally landed **** by this time, what did she do that you're not doing" - mindset ... also create the tension in the skater.

Don't know you or your kid, don't know if you're the ultimate in zen-mode mom ... if you are, good on you, it'll help you survive the insanity that is skating!!!:)

[sk8tmum]

She gets so frustrated that it is hard for her to make progress some days. Any advice other that keep telling her and encouraging her?

Also, ask the coach: what message is she giving your kid? It sounds like she's all over the place, working on a lot of doubles instead of focussing on just some, which seems unusual in a 9 year old! If, by the way, you find that the coach is contributing to the stress, then, you might want to provide feedback to the coach, if she doesn't know it already, that your daughter is stressing out - coaches will adapt in general to different skater mentalities, but, they need to know if there's a problem.

If she's not listening to you or the coach about the come and go problem, then, I would suggest that, if there's a mature (older) skater who your kid respects, and who you know, having them chat to her about this aspect of skating can be effective. My kid mentors younger ones, and they find it a relief to discover that that skater who CAN LAND THOSE HUGE AXELs and ALL OF THOSE DOUBLES (wow!!!) - also gained and lost that amazing axel and double axel many many times over the course of the years, and still regularly has days (weeks) when nothing can be landed for love nor money ...

By the way ... the worst time is puberty, when all of those hormones kick in, and the jumps GO AWAY big time ... changing bodies can take away so much so fast! So, something to look forward to ... :roll:

[momof3chicks]

We ourselves just refuse to get caught up in the angsting. We just shrug and say "well, that's the way it works in skating" - suggest that they relax, and then let it go. If they want to chat about strategies, we listen, but, if it gets to the point of circling around and negative talk, we end it there.

I have 2 high nAch kids. They are intensely competitive, intensely driven, and easily frustrated. By taking this approach, we've helped them to learn to relax. Otherwise, they would have burnt out and quit, which is what I've seen quite a number of kids do.



I like that approach. I too try to end the negative talk, but I am not sure I am as non-chalant as I should be in saying so. She is driven and competitive as well, which I think it part of what makes her good at it but of course feeds the frustration! What do you mean by high nAch? That must be a typo but I cannot figure out what it should be. She is a very intense little girl in all aspects.

[momof3chicks]

If she's not listening to you or the coach about the come and go problem, then, I would suggest that, if there's a mature (older) skater who your kid respects, and who you know, having them chat to her about this aspect of skating can be effective. My kid mentors younger ones, and they find it a relief to discover that that skater who CAN LAND THOSE HUGE AXELs and ALL OF THOSE DOUBLES (wow!!!) - also gained and lost that amazing axel and double axel many many times over the course of the years, and still regularly has days (weeks) when nothing can be landed for love nor money ...

By the way ... the worst time is puberty, when all of those hormones kick in, and the jumps GO AWAY big time ... changing bodies can take away so much so fast! So, something to look forward to ... :roll:

Thanks, one of her coaches actually did just that yesterday (had another girl who just went to junior nationals, tell her about her journey from where my dd is right now). I do think it helped because she did calm down and work through it after that- at least yesterday. THANKS.

PS Not looking forward to the hormones- she is my youngest girl and I have BTDT already with the first and the second is starting up too, ugh

[sk8tmum]

What do you mean by high nAch? That must be a typo but I cannot figure out what it should be. She is a very intense little girl in all aspects.

Oops, sorry, that was the MBA coming out in me; too many years of Business school. It's from McClelland's theory of needs: It refers to people who have a high need fto achieve, excel and succeed. "A person with this type of need, will set goals that are challenging but realistic. The goals have to be challenging so that the person can feel a sense of achievement. However the goals also have to be realistic as the person believes that when a goal is unrealistic, its achievement is dependant on chance rather than personal skill or contribution. This type of person prefers to work alone or with other high achievers. They do not need praise or recognition, achievement of the task is their reward. (borrowed from a quick websearch, I don't have my texts with me ... www.learnmanagement2.com

My kids need constant challenge - but, if they believe that something is "unrealistic" to attain, they may choose not to pursue it. You can see how this may feed into a discouragement over specific goals such as, say, a 2LZ.

Too all of my B-School types, and the psychology types - yes, this is a very shallow interpretation, however, it's enough hopefully to explain the term.

[momof3chicks]

Thanks, now I understand

[doubletoe]

I agree with everything MDVASk8r said. I don't think there's any need to try to lesson your dd's intensity or desire to master the jumps; just help her learn good problem-solving skills (which include identifying which part of the jump she is doing differently/wrong, revisiting the exercises that got her that jump in the first place, and even limiting the number of attempts she allows herself before taking a break from it).
And as you watch the Olympics with her, point out each fall and remind her that that skater has been landing that jump for YEARS! The champion is the one who just gets back up each time and refuses to get discouraged. :)

[twokidsskatemom]

I agree with everything MDVASk8r said. I don't think there's any need to try to lesson your dd's intensity or desire to master the jumps; just help her learn good problem-solving skills (which include identifying which part of the jump she is doing differently/wrong, revisiting the exercises that got her that jump in the first place, and even limiting the number of attempts she allows herself before taking a break from it).
And as you watch the Olympics with her, point out each fall and remind her that that skater has been landing that jump for YEARS! The champion is the one who just gets back up each time and refuses to get discouraged. :)
I agree.
I also think the Op seems to worry about jumps too much. I am sorry, but every post is about jumps and your 9 year old.You have posted about her having trouble with other kids, and with her getting upset with coach about coach doing moves and not doubles. You really do seem like you/she are just hung up on landing them now. We have all said the same thing, they take time, they come and go, and they arent all skating is about.I really would advise a step back and not focus so much on how fast she gets/doesnt get them.It takes YEARS for good jumps.Even little jumping beans run into walls with jumps, ie C Zhang.
I dont mean to be harsh, but just slow down. Its a journey, not a race.That is why kids burn out and or get injured!!

[Tennisany1]

I'm going to agree again with twokidsskatemom. Skating isn't all about the jumps. Yes, it is great that your dd works hard and want to succeed, but working on four doubles at the same time when she doesn't have one consistent seems to be too much focus on just jumps. What level are her spins at? Does she have a consistent, on demand back spin? What about a camel / sit/ change sit? Or a flying camel. If she is working on these doubles I would think these spins would be mastered by now. Maybe you need to talk to her coach about how the practice session is structured. My dd, who is the same age as yours, on a 45 minute to 1 hour session usually does 5 to 10 minutes of stroking exercises to warm up. She runs through all her consistent jumps: waltz up to and including axel. Then she works on her doubles. 10 to 15 minutes on double sal and 10 to 15 minutes on double toe. If it is an on week for one of those jumps then she will spend the 10 minutes on double loop. If both the sal and toe are working then she may work on some combinations. The last 10 to 15 minutes are for spins. She has usually done her back upright in the warm up as she is not allowed to jump with doing a few of those. She will run through camel sit change sit and then flying camel. If both are working well she moves onto her layback and haircutter. All of this is adjusted if she has a lesson and sometimes her coach will tell her to work on her spiral sequence or footwork.

The back spin is particularly important for jumps. In my dd's case her backspin is fast - as in blurry fast. Her camel is held for a minimum of 4 revolutions, the sit change sit is strong - the back sit not quite as low but still good. The flying camel actually flies not steps.

I'm really not trying to compare kids because I think that is crazy. I'm just pointing out all the skills in skating work together and there are other things your daughter should be encouraged to work on. By working on all the parts it can be much less frustrating and way more rewarding. If your dd is having an off night for jumps, she may have great spins. As a final example, the other day my dd was having a terrible session. I don't think she could have landed an axel if I offered her $100!! And she has a very consistent strong axel. Her spins were awful as well. It was just one of those nights. She ended up working on twizzles. They were fabulous! She was just flying. Her coach left her doing that for a while and then got her to try a few jumps. They started to work and everything fell together. What could have been very frustrating ended up positively.

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense or is helpful but is my 2 cents.

[dak_rbb]

...the ultimate in zen-mode mom ...

I want to get there! Anyway...

I’m wondering if there really is a way to convince her or whether she will just need to figure it out for herself? I think the kids who can deal with the frustration are going to be the most successful skaters, but I certainly can’t say how you get there! I just keep reminding my daughter (and myself) about her Axel experience. She spent months happily working at it, suddenly had an absolutely beautiful, consistent jump and then just as suddenly couldn’t stand up on the landing. That’s when the frustration really started—months of it! However, half year later, the Axel is again a nice, consistent, almost can’t-miss jump, but now when it occasionally starts misbehaving, she can actually fix it herself.

She’s just starting to get to that point with the double Sal, but the other doubles are in and out. I remind her that it’s going to be years before they’re all there and consistent. That doesn’t help. We have observed other skaters acting badly out of frustration and talked (between ourselves only) about how counterproductive it is. And then she has PLENTY to work on without the doubles, it’s just tough sometimes getting her to move on. I remind her that if she is interested in doing well at competition, she really needs to focus a good amount of time on spins, footwork, etc. Everyone here has the jumps--it’s the spins and “in-between” skating which really seem to make the difference. None of that typically helps in the moment, but I do believe she thinks about this stuff and the next practice is usually a better one.

Anyway, I don’t have an answer. For myself I just try to relax as much as possible and not worry about any of it too much.

[sk8rdad59]

Skaters at all levels lose jumps DS who is currently working on 3S and 3L and has been landing 2A and 2A+2L combos for years lost everything this past month to the point of not being able to do a 1A. The source of this loss was mostly mental but he has gone through other occasions where he has simply gotten off rhythm in the take off or started dropping a shoulder some times it can take weeks to sort out the problem. The point is that every skater goes through this.

The are many other things to work on and typically most skaters work on only 1 or 2 jumps at a time. However, a coach may have the skater working on more if the coach feels that they are all close. Having some non jump element improvements as a goal is a good distraction and maybe in your DD's case reducing the number of jumps she is focused on getting would be a good idea as it can be difficult for a young skater to keep all the little things they have to remember to do on each jump in their head at the same time. Until muscle memory kicks in for a jump a lot of a jumps success early on requires a lot of thinking.

[sk8rdad59]

One other thing if the jump is actual good in every other aspect ie it truely is a clean fully rotated jump (the coach can ratify that). Then sitting on the landing is often due to core strength. Your DD may need to do more off ice core strengthening (pilates or ballet by preference).

The best way to build core if your doing it on your own are leg lifts and crunches. Don't do situps they are bad for your back and don't isolate the abdominals properly anyway.

[momof3chicks]

I agree.
I also think the Op seems to worry about jumps too much. I am sorry, but every post is about jumps and your 9 year old.You have posted about her having trouble with other kids, and with her getting upset with coach about coach doing moves and not doubles. You really do seem like you/she are just hung up on landing them now. We have all said the same thing, they take time, they come and go, and they arent all skating is about.I really would advise a step back and not focus so much on how fast she gets/doesnt get them.It takes YEARS for good jumps.Even little jumping beans run into walls with jumps, ie C Zhang.
I dont mean to be harsh, but just slow down. Its a journey, not a race.That is why kids burn out and or get injured!!


I think you misunderstand. "I" don't care, SHE does, and I am trying to help her work through the emotions of it. I AM trying to help her refocus but she is a little kid and it can be tough for them to see the forest for the trees. Criticizing me won't help the kid.

[momof3chicks]

What level are her spins at? Does she have a consistent, on demand back spin? What about a camel / sit/ change sit? Or a flying camel. If she is working on these doubles I would think these spins would be mastered by now. Maybe you need to talk to her coach about how the practice session is structured. My dd, who is the same age as yours, on a 45 minute to 1 hour session usually does 5 to 10 minutes of stroking exercises to warm up.
I'm not sure if any of this makes sense or is helpful but is my 2 cents.

It is helpful. She does have very strong spins, but she continues to work on them. She was not taught to 'practice' by her old coach, so these coaches are trying to help her work through a good way to go through practice. The latter part of the week was better!

[momof3chicks]

One other thing if the jump is actual good in every other aspect ie it truely is a clean fully rotated jump (the coach can ratify that). Then sitting on the landing is often due to core strength. Your DD may need to do more off ice core strengthening (pilates or ballet by preference).

The best way to build core if your doing it on your own are leg lifts and crunches. Don't do situps they are bad for your back and don't isolate the abdominals properly anyway.

95 out of 100 times, it is fully rotated. She has been doing more off ice in the last 6 weeks.

[cazzie]

Yeah - they come and go and they are a complete frustration. My daughter (age 11 although not skated that long) has been through the same frustrations.... throwing herself so hard into jumps she was doing 2A rotation instead of single axel and even over-rotating double sal when she got completely frustrated. It would be painful to watch her anger and frustration increasing as she threw herself harder and harder into jumps which just looked worse and worse.

I have to say, the poor kid (my daughter) - jumps not her strong point - my daughters strength is basic skating and footwork and artistry which my daughter has always dismissed as "rubbish and un-important". (Remember seeing her after skating her program with one of the group coaches who was telling her - your skating is more than just your axels which are less than a second out of your program). At stages jumping such a frustration for her that I've wished she'd quit skating.

She's been through a phase now (last 2 weeks) where she has become excited by spins/twizzles and other stuff. she's had a few group classes by some very young (still competing) male coaches and I know they use humour and teasing quite a bit but wonder if they haven't managed to bring some of the fun back itno her skating.

On her own (on patch ice) she has been doing camel-sit-y-spiral spins, bielman spins, change foot camels and the dreaded laybacks (posted previously about her hassles with these) as well as trying flying camel into sit spin and all sorts of variations from watching stuff on TV. Its meant she has been less frustrated and angry, less negative and really excited about skating and things she wants to try. She's also learned some new compulsories solo dances which have been challenging for her (bronze foxtrot and american waltz) and is thinking about doing an artistic program with a friend.

As a consequence she's had some of the best jump days she's had for ages and probably changed her own philosophy a bit - so - with coach working more on axels from increasingly faster speed, various combinations etc. and enjoying her 2S and 2L - rather than beating herself up about the double toe and then not being able to do anything.

I'm hoping when she goes through her next frustrated phase that I can remind her of the last 2 weeks and I'm hoping (not holding my breath) that she's learned and matured from this. But - from time to time might see if we can get one of these very young coaches (only age 17/18) to give her the odd fun lesson - hopefully after long discussion with main coach - so they can work collaboratively. Would not dream of changing coaches but might see if possible to do some fun stuff with alternative coaches.

So - suggestions of another coach or some shared lessons with somebody fun or some different goals might not be a bad idea.

[RachelSk8er]

If you can also have an older kid at the rink who your daughter looks up to talk to her, that tends to help. Sometimes if they hear it from peers or someone just a bit older who they want to be like in a few years, it means more than hearing it from a parent or coach. Even if that kid is telling them the exact same thing.

[momof3chicks]

If you can also have an older kid at the rink who your daughter looks up to talk to her, that tends to help. Sometimes if they hear it from peers or someone just a bit older who they want to be like in a few years, it means more than hearing it from a parent or coach. Even if that kid is telling them the exact same thing.


Yeah, like I said above, a 12 yo girl who went to junior nationals this year talked to her- as it turns out, she too was frustrated like that alot when she was at that point in her skating. It did seem to help my dd.

[Tennisany1]

It is helpful. She does have very strong spins, but she continues to work on them. She was not taught to 'practice' by her old coach, so these coaches are trying to help her work through a good way to go through practice. The latter part of the week was better!

We had the same issue with my dd's last coach. I didn't realize how much time was being wasted until we moved her to her current coach just over a year ago. This coach is really into smart work, not just hard work. I've had that discussion with my dd a number of times as has the coach. She is now really working smart.

I can't remember how long ago your dd changed coaches, but from our experience and what I have seen of others, it usually takes about a year for things to work out and then you see the really big long lasting improvements. The immediate improvements of working with a new coach are often kind of fleeting! Perhaps if you and the coach can put down a one year plan with your dd so she is working on long term stuff, the little ups and downs during the week won't be as frustrating.

[momof3chicks]

We had the same issue with my dd's last coach. I didn't realize how much time was being wasted until we moved her to her current coach just over a year ago. This coach is really into smart work, not just hard work. I've had that discussion with my dd a number of times as has the coach. She is now really working smart.

I can't remember how long ago your dd changed coaches, but from our experience and what I have seen of others, it usually takes about a year for things to work out and then you see the really big long lasting improvements. The immediate improvements of working with a new coach are often kind of fleeting! Perhaps if you and the coach can put down a one year plan with your dd so she is working on long term stuff, the little ups and downs during the week won't be as frustrating.

It has only been 2 months, if that. There has been alot of improvement already and yes they are trying to work with her on working smarter. Little by little! I think it is hard for younger kids to think long term but we keep trying to get her to see it.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think you misunderstand. "I" don't care, SHE does, and I am trying to help her work through the emotions of it. I AM trying to help her refocus but she is a little kid and it can be tough for them to see the forest for the trees. Criticizing me won't help the kid.
I beg to differ with you, I think you do care. I am not criiticzing you as much as reminding you this is her journey, not yours to make.She needs to learn this is how skating is and at 9, she does have the mental understanding of that concept.If you didnt care so much, you wouldnt be making an issue of this. If its all her, then she just needs to know and move on.You seem to think she is super talented.I dont know if she is or isnt, but you are on a collison course for burnout if you/she cant deal with frustration.She is only 9, and its not going to matter what jumps she has today or next week.The jumps of a 9 year old arent the same as the jumps or an 11 or 13 year old same skater.

[momof3chicks]

I beg to differ with you, I think you do care. I am not criiticzing you as much as reminding you this is her journey, not yours to make.She needs to learn this is how skating is and at 9, she does have the mental understanding of that concept.If you didnt care so much, you wouldnt be making an issue of this. If its all her, then she just needs to know and move on.You seem to think she is super talented.I dont know if she is or isnt, but you are on a collison course for burnout if you/she cant deal with frustration.She is only 9, and its not going to matter what jumps she has today or next week.The jumps of a 9 year old arent the same as the jumps or an 11 or 13 year old same skater.

Of COURSE it is her journey, but being her mother (and her and I are close), she shares it with me on a regular basis. If she didn't care, I wouldn't care. I CARE that she is upset and frustrated, I CARE that it is something she is struggling with because she is my kid and I love her and I hate to see her hurting and upset over something she loves. I want to figure out how to help her deal with the frustration because I am her mother, why is that so strange? I don't care what jumps she has today or next week but SHE does. I really have no idea if she is super talented, but I know she works hard and has made a lot of progress and I'd like to figure out how to help her learn to focus on that progress and understand that some things go back before they go forward. And I know she loves skating and I don't WANT the frustration to lead to burnout. She is intense like that in everything she does, it is just her personality. I don't see why asking other parents for ideas on strategies to help her means anything more than me caring about my kids feelings and happiness. And IMO what a 9 yo knows in their mind, and what they can act upon in an emotional moment are often two very different things.

[twokidsskatemom]

Then just say once again that jumps take years to prefect and move on.Yes, I think 9 years olds can get it, I have 9 year old son.You have said YOU think she is super talented.
Leave the whole subject alone.If you have talked to her about it, she already knows.She has to figure out to to handle it.

[momof3chicks]

Then just say once again that jumps take years to prefect and move on.Yes, I think 9 years olds can get it, I have 9 year old son.You have said YOU think she is super talented.
Leave the whole subject alone.If you have talked to her about it, she already knows.She has to figure out to to handle it.

I don't recall ever using the phrase super talented or anything like it, so that is an inference on your part from other things I have posted I guess. Others have given me some ways to help her learn how deal with it. I am trying to figure out how to respond when the negative self talk and such comes to me from her.

[twokidsskatemom]

I don't recall ever using the phrase super talented or anything like it, so that is an inference on your part from other things I have posted I guess. Others have given me some ways to help her learn how deal with it. I am trying to figure out how to respond when the negative self talk and such comes to me from her.

No, you said that in a post re spread eagles.:giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup:Myb e if you lighten up she will as well. Its hard to skate under presures to please parents.

[momof3chicks]

No, you said that in a post re spread eagles.:giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup::giveup:Myb e if you lighten up she will as well. Its hard to skate under presures to please parents.

Well she kind of sucks at spread eagles, and she knows it. I wish I could that easily make her lighten up. I suppose if you are hell bent on assuming I am a pushy parent, I cannot stop you. I cannot find any such post by me calling her super talented. I have said she is athletic, and that is the truth.

[twokidsskatemom]

Well she kind of sucks at spread eagles, and she knows it. I wish I could that easily make her lighten up. I suppose if you are hell bent on assuming I am a pushy parent, I cannot stop you. I cannot find any such post by me calling her super talented. I have said she is athletic, and that is the truth.
OH!! Funny thing, my 9 yo has a really nice low sit spin and can almost do a cannonball spin, but her shoot the duck is kind of lame. My 10 year old has a nice shoot the duck, but cannot do a sit spin to save her life.

They both skate synchro and I was so tired of watching my otherwise very capable and talented 9 yo struggle with spread eagles, so I asked her coach to teach her. The woman was a national champion russian ice dancer and she said to me "I can't because I cannot do one either".

Cracked me up. .[/QUOTE]

The point is if you think she is talented, she will think that as well and have high expectations.The advice you have been given in this post is the same advice you were told in other posts.Jumps take time, NO ONE gets doubles fast, and when you have them they are still a work in progress.Even two or three years after jumps come and go.That is a fact.You and she need to learn that and she can at age 9.You seem to make a big deal about the fact she has doubles.
You may think as you wish :giveup:

[sk8tmum]

Best thing I ever did as a "novice" skating parent was to find an individual who I trusted at the arena to guide me in terms of expectations and understanding of figure skating. Having someone who could glance over and see what was "going on" and interpret it for me was invaluable. Now, I seem to be playing that role for other novice parents!

Forums and message boards don't work well on these sorts of problems, frankly. They do well on basic stuff, but, when you start trying to explain personal situations, personal perceptions, angsts, things get taken amiss, particularly when it comes to someone explaining someone else's situation, such as a parent interpreting a child's emotions.

mom3chicks, can you find someone at the arena to bounce things off of, who knows you, your kid, and your area environment? The personal touch will help you immeasurably. The forum is handydandy, but not as good as a person you can hang with and drink coffee with and rhinestone with.:):)

Every parent (barring a few oddities) loves and cares and wants the best for their kid. I've driven myself nuts a few times, before I became travelworn and experienced as my kids and I travelled down the weird and wonderful road that is skating. I remember phoning (pre-texting) everyone that my kid had an axel ... only to discover that it went away (for a year) a week later, and, now, looking back, what looked so cool was really just a waltz jump with ambition! :oops:

With my smallest, who is much younger than my older two, and really still in LTS, I get people who come up and start with me on the "can't she do - (insert whatever here)" - or, "my, doesn't she have a nice touch with (insert whatever here)". With the older two, I reacted ... with this one, I smile, and go back to reading my book, content in knowing that she'll get wherever she's going whenever she's supposed to, regardless of how many times I worry about it. I learned that from my eldest, who hugged me one day and thanked me for "getting a life" and taking the pressure of her when I stopped fussing and fretting over every 2 steps forward/3 steps back and then 4 steps forward we went through on the ice! It was humbling to be given that lesson from a young lady (age 10), but, I was proud of her compliment.

So, yeah, it's a weird sport. I am firmly of the opinion that inhaling glitter and hairspray causes personality mutations, which is why everyone seems to act their oddest around test days and competitions!:roll:

Nobody here really knows anyone else, and that's the fact - so, you know, we can all be misperceived and misunderstood, unless we're doing fact based stuff like, say, "where do you buy those really cool AB stones that look like blue fire on the ice"!

[twokidsskatemom]

Best thing I ever did as a "novice" skating parent was to find an individual who I trusted at the arena to guide me in terms of expectations and understanding of figure skating. Having someone who could glance over and see what was "going on" and interpret it for me was invaluable. Now, I seem to be playing that role for other novice parents!

Forums and message boards don't work well on these sorts of problems, frankly. They do well on basic stuff, but, when you start trying to explain personal situations, personal perceptions, angsts, things get taken amiss, particularly when it comes to someone explaining someone else's situation, such as a parent interpreting a child's emotions.

mom3chicks, can you find someone at the arena to bounce things off of, who knows you, your kid, and your area environment? The personal touch will help you immeasurably. The forum is handydandy, but not as good as a person you can hang with and drink coffee with and rhinestone with.:):)

Every parent (barring a few oddities) loves and cares and wants the best for their kid. I've driven myself nuts a few times, before I became travelworn and experienced as my kids and I travelled down the weird and wonderful road that is skating. I remember phoning (pre-texting) everyone that my kid had an axel ... only to discover that it went away (for a year) a week later, and, now, looking back, what looked so cool was really just a waltz jump with ambition! :oops:

With my smallest, who is much younger than my older two, and really still in LTS, I get people who come up and start with me on the "can't she do - (insert whatever here)" - or, "my, doesn't she have a nice touch with (insert whatever here)". With the older two, I reacted ... with this one, I smile, and go back to reading my book, content in knowing that she'll get wherever she's going whenever she's supposed to, regardless of how many times I worry about it. I learned that from my eldest, who hugged me one day and thanked me for "getting a life" and taking the pressure of her when I stopped fussing and fretting over every 2 steps forward/3 steps back and then 4 steps forward we went through on the ice! It was humbling to be given that lesson from a young lady (age 10), but, I was proud of her compliment.

So, yeah, it's a weird sport. I am firmly of the opinion that inhaling glitter and hairspray causes personality mutations, which is why everyone seems to act their oddest around test days and competitions!:roll:

Nobody here really knows anyone else, and that's the fact - so, you know, we can all be misperceived and misunderstood, unless we're doing fact based stuff like, say, "where do you buy those really cool AB stones that look like blue fire on the ice"!
I agree she should find someone local to talk to.I am sure its hard to hear things from total strangers from a board. I also like your statement above 3 steps back and 4 steps forward. That is a great way to explain it!

[Tennisany1]

First off, sk8tmum, great post! There does seem to be something about figure skating that affects parents. I think it happens to us all at one time or another, and I think it is worse in Olympic years when there is actually more high level figure skating in the news. Keeping your head out of the clouds and realizing that for 99.9% of the kids out there this is just a sport like soccer or swimming can be difficult, but it is necessary if you want you and your child to maintain any semblance of sanity.

Second, I had a really interesting conversation with my dd on the way home from skating this afternoon. It started out by me commenting that she was working really well out there and it also looked like she was having fun. She agreed and said that her "butt was wet because I fell so much so I must have been working hard." (Don't you just love the word choice?) Anyway, I went on to say how great her double toe was looking and she seemed to be getting more height. She proceeded to role her eyes and give me that look, and then said "it wasn't a double toe, it was a double flip." It was what she said next that I think really applies to this conversation. She went on to say that just because she was working on double loop and double flip didn't mean anything really. Even if she lands them. She said her coach was experimenting a bit to see how she would do with them so he could make his plan for the next few months (she won't compete again for quite a while - this is skill development time for her.)

The key here is that I think coaches and kids often work on things and even land things that are really just experiments - kind of works in progress. Sometimes parents see this and get all excited. You landed a double flip!! Then to parents the next day "My dd landed a double flip!" Then that seems to transform into more that it really was. With that transformation pressure builds for the child. Pressure makes it harder to work on the jump because suddenly falling is failure rather than a natural stepping stone to success.

Having just read through this thread I thought a bit before I responded to my daughter. I then said that it was pretty cool to try out a bunch of new things to give her a preview of what was to come. I also said that it looked like the next few months were going to be hard work but also lots of fun. She agreed and we left it at that.

I'm not sure how I would have responded if I hadn't read this thread so I'm glad that it was started. I find it helpful to reflex a bit about how what we say affects our kids.

[Schmeck]

Instead of trying to solve the problem for your daughter, reflect the situation back on her - point out that she seems frustrated, how does she want to deal with it? Does she want to quit, take a break, keep skating? Then tell her the negative energy is only going to make things worse, and that you understand that she's upset, validate the feelings, then tell her what she does with that is up to her!

It's only skating after all, not life or death, and she can learn a valuable lesson if she learns to process the situation herself. You can't keep finding her solutions, you need to guide her into finding them herself. The tough part is accepting what she decides to do - if she decides to quit, then so be it.

[londonicechamp]

Hi momof3chicks

So your dd has been with this new coach for nearly 2 months? Maybe you should talk to this coach about the future plan for the next year. I think that your dd's lesson should not just be focused on jumps, as otherwise she will get frustrated and demotivated.

I (although over 30 years old) has a similar problem with my coach in the end of January. She just focused my half an hour lesson on a spin which I cannot do very well yet, and as I now have a full time job, I go to the skating lesson after work, not being able to do the spin makes me even more frustrated. I e-mailed to my coach, she said that I am not the only student who complains, and agrees that sometimes she is too carried away, and if that happens, I should tell her to stop.

So after that e-mail communication, my coach and I agreed to come to some sort of plan of what my each lesson should entail, as I am old enough to decide what works for me and what does not. So now my lesson(s) consists of a combination of basic skating (crossovers, crossrolls, little man, two foot glides etc), jumps (till loop jump), and spins (sit spins). I am working on the other spins (one foot spin, scratch spin, corkscrew spin, change foot spin, and backspin all by myself during practice), and seriously my spins have improved using this approach.

I do not know about which lesson method works best for your 9 year old dd, but for me, short bursts of some elements of basic skating, jumps and spins work best for me.

I do have frustration days as well. If that happens, I just work on other stuff and get back to the bad stuff that does not work out at the end of my practice session, or during the next practice session.

londonicechamp

[londonicechamp]

Hi momof3chicks

I hope that my reply to your post is not too off the topic. 8-)

londonicechamp

[twokidsskatemom]

Hi momof3chicks

I hope that my reply to your post is not too off the topic. 8-)

londonicechamp

I dont think it was ot at all. But she did post somewhere else that the coach wanted her to focus on moves for a lesson as she was testing soon.Her daughter wasnt happy as she wanted to do jumps, not as the coach wanted her to do.
You response was good.Communcation is inportant, as well as the skater knowing this is a long process. One thing doesnt work, just spend time on another.
Also as stated above big difference between landing a jump and landing it all the time.I know someone who said.. my dd has a D/A but she falls alot. No, she can rotate in the air but if you cant check the jump and land on one skate, you dont have it!
edited to add.. after rereading the first post, its not that they come and go at first. Its that they come and go always.Does she watch skating on tv? Then she can see that its a life long process, not a few month process.

[Virtualsk8r]

:) Tonight - the entire world is watching to see if Canadian pairs skaters Bryce Davison and Jessica Dube (after years of training, political hype and podium placings) -- are in the running for the Gold medal they so desperately want.

The kicker - Jessica and Bryce have a side by side triple salchow in their short program. Blow that and there goes their medal chances let alone the gold they have been programming for years to win. One jump- that Jessica apparently has not landed in practices this week. One jump - that she can do in practice but not under pressure of competition, which means it is not a consistent jump. A triple jump that most senior skaters can do in their sleep.

So- why should a 9 or 10 year old be any different? Jumps come and go - and jumps are not always consistent for many reasons, even at the Olympic level.

[Tennisany1]

^^ Excellent reality check - thank you!

[londonicechamp]

Hi

Well, even the one coming in third place in the pairs short program fell in their program doin a triple salchow or triple toe loop. :roll:

This proves that even the Olympics skaters make mistakes when it comes to competing under pressure.

I was so happy that China came first during the pairs short program, and the other pair came fourth. :)

londonicechamp

[momof3chicks]

:) Tonight - the entire world is watching to see if Canadian pairs skaters Bryce Davison and Jessica Dube (after years of training, political hype and podium placings) -- are in the running for the Gold medal they so desperately want.

The kicker - Jessica and Bryce have a side by side triple salchow in their short program. Blow that and there goes their medal chances let alone the gold they have been programming for years to win. One jump- that Jessica apparently has not landed in practices this week. One jump - that she can do in practice but not under pressure of competition, which means it is not a consistent jump. A triple jump that most senior skaters can do in their sleep.

So- why should a 9 or 10 year old be any different? Jumps come and go - and jumps are not always consistent for many reasons, even at the Olympic level.


Yesterday we came across that show of Johnny Weir's and he was frustrated one day and totally unable to do some of his jumps. His narration was spot onto how she was feeling. She seemed relieved to hear even guys like him feel the same some days!

[londonicechamp]

Hi momof3chicks

Glad that you and your DD watch the Olympics yesterday too. Now that she knows that she is not the only person struggling with jumps at her level. :P

londonicechamp

[Bev]

:) Tonight - the entire world is watching to see if Canadian pairs skaters Bryce Davison and Jessica Dube (after years of training, political hype and podium placings) -- are in the running for the Gold medal they so desperately want.

The kicker - Jessica and Bryce have a side by side triple salchow in their short program. Blow that and there goes their medal chances let alone the gold they have been programming for years to win. One jump- that Jessica apparently has not landed in practices this week. One jump - that she can do in practice but not under pressure of competition, which means it is not a consistent jump. A triple jump that most senior skaters can do in their sleep.

So- why should a 9 or 10 year old be any different? Jumps come and go - and jumps are not always consistent for many reasons, even at the Olympic level.


Excellent post, and now I think I'd best go apologise to my 12 year old DD:oops:
She is working on her Double Salchow, and when she can do it, she does it consistently all session, when she can't do it, it's not even close. I have to admit to finding that frustrating. In fact, I am holding my breath as we arrive at the rink to see what sort of day we are having.

Not healthy for her or me.

Thanks again, I needed to read that.

[Tennisany1]

Excellent post, and now I think I'd best go apologise to my 12 year old DD:oops:
She is working on her Double Salchow, and when she can do it, she does it consistently all session, when she can't do it, it's not even close. I have to admit to finding that frustrating. In fact, I am holding my breath as we arrive at the rink to see what sort of day we are having.

Not healthy for her or me.

Thanks again, I needed to read that.

That sounds like my dd. One thing I have found helps is that I don't sit and watch her practice. I drop her off and go and do something else or even go home and go back and pick her up. I watch maybe once per week and then I can see an improvement. I think it is better for both of us that way.

When I read your post I started thinking back to when I played tennis. I can remember having days when every ball, hit the line, every serve was on, I couldn't miss a volley. Then I also remember lots of days where no matter what I did everything was long, wide, or into the net. I know the more I worried the worse it got. I also remember wanting so badly to please my dad and he was about as far from a tennis parent as you could get. The thing is, none of that worry made it any better. I think I'll think about that the next time my dd has a bad day. I'm also going to think about my facial expressions ... I've been told I don't have a great poker face.

[momof3chicks]

That sounds like my dd. One thing I have found helps is that I don't sit and watch her practice. I drop her off and go and do something else or even go home and go back and pick her up. I watch maybe once per week and then I can see an improvement. I think it is better for both of us that way.

When I read your post I started thinking back to when I played tennis. I can remember having days when every ball, hit the line, every serve was on, I couldn't miss a volley. Then I also remember lots of days where no matter what I did everything was long, wide, or into the net. I know the more I worried the worse it got. I also remember wanting so badly to please my dad and he was about as far from a tennis parent as you could get. The thing is, none of that worry made it any better. I think I'll think about that the next time my dd has a bad day. I'm also going to think about my facial expressions ... I've been told I don't have a great poker face.

I think it is better if I am not there too, but she usually protests saying she LIKES me to be there. Perhaps I will start running 'short' errands and not leaving the whole time all at once.

[kssk8fan]

after reading through this thread I just have to share my $.02!

1. no one is perfect - not the kids, not the coaches, not the parents (heck, sometimes the ice isn't even perfect!)

2. GROWTH SPURTS! i've figured over the last 7 years, growth spurts alone have cost me 1000s of dollars in having to go back to the basics. (however DD is always remarkably stronger and more consistent once the element is "re-learned" a million times over)

3. the key to success is failure (i know, cliche right? well, it's true)

4. Michelle Kwan fell everyday in practice and 2000 times before getting a consistent double axel. (frank carroll told my daughter this at a camp one summer - completely changed her outlook!)

[ukmum]

I have to admit that I am a bit puzzled by all of this. Does your daughter mix much with other skaters at the rink? Does she do any group classes? If she does then surely she will have seen for herself many times that all bits of skating come and go?

My daughter aged 9 got her axel very quickly, moving and in a programme, she got her double sal quickly too. However, 5 weeks off cos of an injury and 6 months later she can't land either. This seems to be the norm. Spirals were no different - 6 weeks before the test they were there, we put forms in for test and they disappeared practically the same day. They did come back on test day but then disappared again. There is a girl aged 7 at our rink who can do axel and 2 sal and 2 toe and has been able to for about six months, but there are still days when she can't land them for no apparent reason.

I'm sure our rink and skaters can't be that different to anywhere else and the kids just accept that this is what happens in skating, they are on the whole pleased for each other when it works and empathetic when it doesn't. The only exception is where kids brag that they can do so and so or are mean to those who can't and then they very quietly celebrate with a look to each other when the show off loses the jump/spin/spiral.

Have her practice something other than the jumps if it is stressing her out. Footwork is far more important anyway as the results of the olympics showed. There is loads of time for developing jumps and if she is this frustrated over doubles how on earth will she cope with learning triples?

Good luck but do try and relax about it.

[Virtualsk8r]

Good post, UKMum!

I think skaters, parents and coaches lose sight of the reason why children take up figure skating.......for enjoyment and personal satisfaction.

Remember when your child stepped onto the ice the very first time...on the pond, on the backyard rink, public skating or learn-to-skate classes...helmet on, lots of padding, skates that probably were too stiff and uncomfortable...

Remember the proud feeling you had (and the fear the first time they fell)..when your child stood up and took that first slippery step? The joy you both felt after that first session was immense (or the tears of frustration in some cases but after a couple of classes you just couldn't get your skater off the ice)

As a coach I know the feeling of watching a first-timer during their first class - and then watching their enjoyment six or ten weeks later as they have mastered the ability to stand on their own - even skate.

I think we all need to remember the reasons why children get involved in this sport and those original feelings of pride and success. Too much focus is put on becoming a champion, of winning and of bettering your neighbour. Not enough focus is put on becoming the best skater YOU can be...stretching your limits and enjoying your accomplishments.

In my career as a coach, and the parent of a national level skater - it has been my experience that early bloomers tend to burn out or lose interest in the sport when skills become repetitive and more difficult. The turtle wins the race here - not the hare. I can pick out the children who will become champions just about the first class. They are the ones who don't give up, have great energy and focus, listen to instruction and apply it, and most of all - love love love the freedom of being on the ice. Notice I didn't say they were the most accomplished skater in the class -- that comes with dedication and practice. Just my observation.

So don't focus on the success or failure of just one skill. Under the CoP judging system - once a skater is competitive, it is a sum of how well they do everything that wins the event.....not just the execution and success of one jump (like the quad). Do everything as best you can, and that will win over the skater with perfect jumps and imperfect spins.

[sk8tmum]

Good post, UKMum!

I think skaters, parents and coaches lose sight of the reason why children take up figure skating.......for enjoyment and personal satisfaction.

Remember when your child stepped onto the ice the very first time...on the pond, on the backyard rink, public skating or learn-to-skate classes...helmet on, lots of padding, skates that probably were too stiff and uncomfortable...

Remember the proud feeling you had (and the fear the first time they fell)..when your child stood up and took that first slippery step? The joy you both felt after that first session was immense (or the tears of frustration in some cases but after a couple of classes you just couldn't get your skater off the ice)

As a coach I know the feeling of watching a first-timer during their first class - and then watching their enjoyment six or ten weeks later as they have mastered the ability to stand on their own - even skate.

I think we all need to remember the reasons why children get involved in this sport and those original feelings of pride and success. Too much focus is put on becoming a champion, of winning and of bettering your neighbour. Not enough focus is put on becoming the best skater YOU can be...stretching your limits and enjoying your accomplishments.

In my career as a coach, and the parent of a national level skater - it has been my experience that early bloomers tend to burn out or lose interest in the sport when skills become repetitive and more difficult. The turtle wins the race here - not the hare. I can pick out the children who will become champions just about the first class. They are the ones who don't give up, have great energy and focus, listen to instruction and apply it, and most of all - love love love the freedom of being on the ice. Notice I didn't say they were the most accomplished skater in the class -- that comes with dedication and practice. Just my observation.

So don't focus on the success or failure of just one skill. Under the CoP judging system - once a skater is competitive, it is a sum of how well they do everything that wins the event.....not just the execution and success of one jump (like the quad). Do everything as best you can, and that will win over the skater with perfect jumps and imperfect spins.

:bow::bow::bow: As the proud parent of a turtle who is watching the hares quitting and leaving and who is discovering recent and long waited for success; and as the proud parent of a swan with a damaged leg who may never be able to takeoff for flight or land as well as the other birds, but, who does soar and take joy in her somewhat awkward flight - thank you.

As for COP: my swan also discovered recently that what she has achieved through hard work in terms of presentation, skating skills and strong footwork placed her very much up in the ranks with the kids who had been focussing on jumps and making fun of her for her inability to land doubles or an axel!

[cazzie]

Love those last few posts. They're a real comfort to those of us parents whose kids start losing there perspetive just because of some jumps which occupy only a few seconds of a program.

My daughters strengths have always been footwork/artistry and she is probably one of the turtles who is on the ice because she loves skating more than anything else in the world. She used to say on ice was the only place where she could completely be herself. Jumps are really not my daughter's strong point - (although we're wondering if her 3 - 4 inches of height increase aren't playing more of a role than usual).

I've told her my target for her for her next comptition is for her to show off as much as possible and to look like she is enjoying herself. I've said I'll be the happiest mother in the world if she achieves this even if she falls on both the axels.

When my daughter did beginner programs she did just this and would always vary her routine a bit depending on what she was pretending that day. People loved watching her because of the sheer enjoyment she projected on the ice.

However she lost some of this the two most recent competitions when she started focussing completely on the axel/axel combo. OK- one she was really ill and should never have done but the other - she did a very, very over-rotated first axel and then got mad at herself and I could see her not being as flowy and happy and lovely to watch.

Coach has kind of agreed this and I'm hoping she can get back her love of being the only person on the ice really projecting her love of skating and enjoying the drama of the trip to the competition, the make up and running around with friends and the competition dress.

[sk8rdad59]

after reading through this thread I just have to share my $.02!

1. no one is perfect - not the kids, not the coaches, not the parents (heck, sometimes the ice isn't even perfect!)

2. GROWTH SPURTS! i've figured over the last 7 years, growth spurts alone have cost me 1000s of dollars in having to go back to the basics. (however DD is always remarkably stronger and more consistent once the element is "re-learned" a million times over)

3. the key to success is failure (i know, cliche right? well, it's true)

4. Michelle Kwan fell everyday in practice and 2000 times before getting a consistent double axel. (frank carroll told my daughter this at a camp one summer - completely changed her outlook!)


Good post. Kurt Browning has also said that he was the kid who fell the most when he was young. If you aren't falling then your not pushing your limits. DS has been skating for 12 years now and I have seen many "flash-in-the-pan" skaters with huge talent burn out and quit at the first sign of adversity. Patience is truely a virtue in figure skating.

[momof3chicks]

Good post. Kurt Browning has also said that he was the kid who fell the most when he was young. If you aren't falling then your not pushing your limits. DS has been skating for 12 years now and I have seen many "flash-in-the-pan" skaters with huge talent burn out and quit at the first sign of adversity. Patience is truely a virtue in figure skating.

I like these points too. DDs coach is never upset when she falls, as like you said, she is trying to step it up. A couple of her friends are SO good and SO graceful but are very careful to try to never fall, and it has been hard for them to keep moving forward. I am not sure I could have done it either.

[oz01]

Good post, UKMum!

I think skaters, parents and coaches lose sight of the reason why children take up figure skating.......for enjoyment and personal satisfaction.

Remember when your child stepped onto the ice the very first time...on the pond, on the backyard rink, public skating or learn-to-skate classes...helmet on, lots of padding, skates that probably were too stiff and uncomfortable...

Remember the proud feeling you had (and the fear the first time they fell)..when your child stood up and took that first slippery step? The joy you both felt after that first session was immense (or the tears of frustration in some cases but after a couple of classes you just couldn't get your skater off the ice)

As a coach I know the feeling of watching a first-timer during their first class - and then watching their enjoyment six or ten weeks later as they have mastered the ability to stand on their own - even skate.

I think we all need to remember the reasons why children get involved in this sport and those original feelings of pride and success. Too much focus is put on becoming a champion, of winning and of bettering your neighbour. Not enough focus is put on becoming the best skater YOU can be...stretching your limits and enjoying your accomplishments.

In my career as a coach, and the parent of a national level skater - it has been my experience that early bloomers tend to burn out or lose interest in the sport when skills become repetitive and more difficult. The turtle wins the race here - not the hare. I can pick out the children who will become champions just about the first class. They are the ones who don't give up, have great energy and focus, listen to instruction and apply it, and most of all - love love love the freedom of being on the ice. Notice I didn't say they were the most accomplished skater in the class -- that comes with dedication and practice. Just my observation.

So don't focus on the success or failure of just one skill. Under the CoP judging system - once a skater is competitive, it is a sum of how well they do everything that wins the event.....not just the execution and success of one jump (like the quad). Do everything as best you can, and that will win over the skater with perfect jumps and imperfect spins.


Thank you for this wonderful post!