Layback spins

[cazzie]

My daughter is learning these and actually starting to bend back quite nicely. (Or whatever that movement is..... she doesn't look like a person having a seizure anymore when looking at the ceiling).

However she battles with feeling really nauseous by the second or third layback spin. She can do camels/sit spins/back/beilman (not enough rotations with beilman yet) and all sorts of variations of the above for a good 20 minute period or more with no problems but gets the nausea every time with layback spins in under 5 minutes of starting them. She says she gets stomach acid coming to her mouth when doing them and feels about to throw up. This feeling lasts for a few minutes after stopping laybacks.

Is it the different position - meaning they don't have somewhere to look at? Do you have any hints for something she should be trying? (So far no sympathy from coaches at all and just told to stop making a fuss. However she isn't the sort to fuss really and I think it must be quite bad for her to be complaining about it).

I know for tests she'll need a layback spin at some point. No idea if its compulsory in a skating program although most skaters seem to do them at more advanced levels.

Oh - another question - on patch ice she's been trying a camel spin where you grab your foot initially spinning in a camel with leg bent and held, and then go into a pull-up spiral type of spin. (I know it has a name but can't think what this is). She finds she slows down when grabbing her foot because its hard for her to know where her blade is. What do you normally tell your students with this?

My daughter continually moans at how useless a "skating mother" I am although is quite greatful that I'm not criticising her skating all the time like some other more knowledgable parents at the rink do with their children.

[Isk8NYC]

Is it the different position - meaning they don't have somewhere to look at? Probably the opposite - she's most likely focusing on something during her laybacks. Sometimes they look up at the lights or (if they're back far enough) focus on the top of the boards.

Figure skaters usually DON'T focus during spins because it makes you dizzy and ill. It'll probably go away as she masters the position and stops using a focal point. She has to "blur her eyes" during the spin. (Which is why it's so scary when little kids close in on a skater doing a spin - you really can't see clearly how close or far away they are in many cases.)

I know for tests she'll need a layback spin at some point. No idea if its compulsory in a skating program although most skaters seem to do them at more advanced levels.A layback is on the Juvenile and Novice tests, but in each case there is an alternate spin she could do instead. (Juv=attitude; Nov=Camel or sit.) http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/Tests%20Book%20without%20diagrams.pdf However, most of the skaters at Juv had them in their programs last time I looked.

Oh - another question - on patch ice she's been trying a camel spin where you grab your foot initially spinning in a camel with leg bent and held, and then go into a pull-up spiral type of spin. (I know it has a name but can't think what this is). She finds she slows down when grabbing her foot because its hard for her to know where her blade is. What do you normally tell your students with this?

My daughter continually moans at how useless a "skating mother" I am although is quite greatful that I'm not criticising her skating all the time like some other more knowledgable parents at the rink do with their children.

I think you're talking about a catch-foot camel spin at the start. The pull-up part sounds like a Biellmann spin, but that requires two hands and the free foot is over the head. She's probably doing a lower-level variation.

That "reach for the foot" will pull her off the sweet spot of the spin until she's developed the flexibility and strength to catch it easily. Being able to bring the free foot towards the hand will help - that's how the skater manages to maintain speed.

Off-ice exercises to improve strength and flexibility will help tremendously.
rsk8d can probably suggest a few specific exercises.

[cazzie]

Many thanks. I asked her about "looking" and she did think that maybe she is looking at things during the layback which she doesn't with other spins. She said her other spins are much faster and too fast to "look" because her speed is greater - which makes it easier not too. I think the nausea is starting a bit of a fear thing as well because she's expecting to feel sick - and I had stupidly said maybe if you try harder to look you won't feel so bad.

She's had some goes (yesterday) doing the "catch-foot camel" with moving leg rather than arm and felt she was starting to get a few on her left foot although can't do it with back-spin yet. Yes - I think it starts off in camel position and then becomes a sort of catch-foot spiral spin but is too slow to get up into full bielmann position because by then she's lost all her speed.....(Upright spin to biellman she struggles with slowing but getting just about 3 revolutions in proper position).

As long as she's having fun - I think she's always been really focused on jumps (not her strong point) and she's discovering a world of possibilities with spin variations! Most of them are being tried on her own and she was inspired by the bits of the European Championships that she watched and obviously will be more inspired than ever from watching Olympics.

[kayskate]

When I learned the layback, I purposely chose a place to do it where I wasn't directly under a light. If I looked up and focused on the light, it made me dizzy. She should find a neutral location to practice laybacks and try not to focus on anything. Let the eyes relax. After she gets the spin, this will no longer be necessary, but it may help in the beginning.

Kay

[momof3chicks]

My dd is trying to improve this too, and she has trouble when she tries to straighten back up. I never thought about the focus angle.

[cazzie]

Somebody on the web site sent a really helpful breakdown of the spin and my daughter really enjoyed reading it. Coaches thrilled with her layback (telling her how much its improved - so clearing the descriptives really worked) although the silly child still can't stop herself looking and focussing so still getting motion sickness/nausea.

She described seeing the parents in the seating round the rink and not being able to help herself stop looking because it feels quite unreal so see them at that angle! (There are rows and rows of seating).


Funnily also a problem on another spin variation she's learning where she turns her torso round in a sideways/twisted sort of position. (Apologies _ am quite hopeless about these sort of things).

It doesn't seem to make her look drunk or off-balance at least (unlike the way I would walk after being spun on a fair-ground device).

I'm almost wondering about spectacles that blur vision or something. I think she'll probably come up with her own solution eventually and will post it once she discovers it!

(There is a parent who told me my daughter really sorted out her duaghters flip by telling her something on patch ice which was completely different to anything an adult might say. My daughter also showed her 7 year old brother a slightly unusual way of counting when learning his beginner foxtrot movement which really improved his timing).

[rsk8d]

Somebody on the web site sent a really helpful breakdown of the spin and my daughter really enjoyed reading it. Coaches thrilled with her layback (telling her how much its improved - so clearing the descriptives really worked).

I'm so happy the layback skill analysis was helpful! Check our site for many others!

[isakswings]

My daughter is learning these and actually starting to bend back quite nicely. (Or whatever that movement is..... she doesn't look like a person having a seizure anymore when looking at the ceiling).

However she battles with feeling really nauseous by the second or third layback spin. She can do camels/sit spins/back/beilman (not enough rotations with beilman yet) and all sorts of variations of the above for a good 20 minute period or more with no problems but gets the nausea every time with layback spins in under 5 minutes of starting them. She says she gets stomach acid coming to her mouth when doing them and feels about to throw up. This feeling lasts for a few minutes after stopping laybacks.

Is it the different position - meaning they don't have somewhere to look at? Do you have any hints for something she should be trying? (So far no sympathy from coaches at all and just told to stop making a fuss. However she isn't the sort to fuss really and I think it must be quite bad for her to be complaining about it).

I know for tests she'll need a layback spin at some point. No idea if its compulsory in a skating program although most skaters seem to do them at more advanced levels.

Oh - another question - on patch ice she's been trying a camel spin where you grab your foot initially spinning in a camel with leg bent and held, and then go into a pull-up spiral type of spin. (I know it has a name but can't think what this is). She finds she slows down when grabbing her foot because its hard for her to know where her blade is. What do you normally tell your students with this?

My daughter continually moans at how useless a "skating mother" I am although is quite greatful that I'm not criticising her skating all the time like some other more knowledgable parents at the rink do with their children.

My daughter has said she gets dizzy too! :) I'll be watching for ideas on how to help her with that also.