Lower sit spin...

[isakswings]

my daughter is trying very hard to improve her sit spin. Not only is she working on increasing her roations(she has the required rotations, but coach wants her to increase the roatations), but she is also working on making them lower. She had a few really nice sit spins yesterday :). What do you do or tell your students to do, to improve sit spins? My daughter can get quite low when doing a "shoot the duck" but getting that low while spinning seems to be much more difficult. I asked her coach about that and she did say it is much harder to keep that low while spinning. I think part of it is needing to work on her leg strength and getting up from sitting while spinning. :) Her spin is currently "low enough" for the level she is skating at, but she needs it a tad lower for when she moves up to non-test/pre-pre this summer(hopefully!).

Anyway...thanks!

[doubletoe]

my daughter is trying very hard to improve her sit spin. Not only is she working on increasing her roations(she has the required rotations, but coach wants her to increase the roatations), but she is also working on making them lower. She had a few really nice sit spins yesterday :). What do you do or tell your students to do, to improve sit spins? My daughter can get quite low when doing a "shoot the duck" but getting that low while spinning seems to be much more difficult. I asked her coach about that and she did say it is much harder to keep that low while spinning. I think part of it is needing to work on her leg strength and getting up from sitting while spinning. :) Her spin is currently "low enough" for the level she is skating at, but she needs it a tad lower for when she moves up to non-test/pre-pre this summer(hopefully!).

Anyway...thanks!

It's just as much about technique and weight placement as strength. Once her free leg is all the way in front and turned out, she needs to push her chest and free leg forward and lower her free leg lower than her skating leg. When she can feel the calf of her skating leg pressing against the inside of the thigh of her free leg, that means she is in the right position. First, have her try the position off ice, in shoes with a heel. Then have her try it on a *backward* shoot the duck on the ball of the blade, so that her bottom pick is scraping the ice a little. Both of these positions will simulate where her weight will be during a sit spin.

[Tennisany1]

What doubletoe said as well as squats, lots of squats. Often kids can get down, it is getting up that is really difficult. She can start with two foot squats. Standing with her feet shoulder width apart she should think of sinking back into her heels to just below 90 degrees and then rise up. The whole movement should be done slowly with lots of control. Make sure her knees are not going out over toes when she goes down. Squats build the leg strength she will need to get up once she has the correct sit spin position. Walking lunges as part of her warm up will also help. As she gets the technique and strength she can try the squats on a Bosu ball and then later a wobble board. She will then be working both her legs and her core muscles. Lots of fun!!

ETA: Sit spins are often greatly influenced by growth spurts. When your daughter grows and her centre of gravity changes she may struggle again for a while until she gets used to her new size. In my experience it only seems to take a week or two to get things back to normal, but it can be a bit frustrating when it happens.

[sk8tmum]

Lots of threads on this in the forum; it comes up a lot. Search for them.

Other than that, have her do squats wearing 2 inch heels. The heels help position her body in the same way that a pair of skates do.

Have her watch REALLY GOOD SIT SPINS on Youtube or elsewhere; seeing what they should really look like when well done helps in visualization. Video her and have her compare herself vs the goal to see where she is in terms of where she wants to be.

Wrist weights to speed up the rotation can be effective too, and help spin her lower, BUT not on a child; kids shouldn't be using weights pre-pubescent, IMHO, and I believe your skater is younger.

[isakswings]

Lots of threads on this in the forum; it comes up a lot. Search for them.

Other than that, have her do squats wearing 2 inch heels. The heels help position her body in the same way that a pair of skates do.

Have her watch REALLY GOOD SIT SPINS on Youtube or elsewhere; seeing what they should really look like when well done helps in visualization. Video her and have her compare herself vs the goal to see where she is in terms of where she wants to be.

Wrist weights to speed up the rotation can be effective too, and help spin her lower, BUT not on a child; kids shouldn't be using weights pre-pubescent, IMHO, and I believe your skater is younger.

Thanks! My daughter is 11. :) She's entering puberty(what fun! LOL). She's actually had a couple of very good skating days! She worked A LOT on her sit spin today. She pulled off a couple of really nice spins and so me not so great spins too. It's coming along. I hope her good skating streak continues through Saturday! Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. Her coach also mentioned squats and dd does walking lunges in off ice but could certainly do more at home! :) Anyway... thanks for the suggestions!

[Virtualsk8r]

Lots of threads on this in the forum; it comes up a lot. Search for them.

Other than that, have her do squats wearing 2 inch heels. The heels help position her body in the same way that a pair of skates do.

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I'm not convinced that squats with heels will work well for most skaters. The pitch may be sufficient to theoretically put the skater on the sweet spot for the sit spin, but it is the inability to engage the major (and minor) muscles required to maintain the squat position, that are weak. If a skater can't hold up their free leg parallel to the ice, then they won't be able to do a sit spin properly. For many, it is a flexibility issue with the muscles on the back of the thigh and calf - for others it is a lack of core strength to maintain the pike and keep the freeleg elevated. And of course, some skaters just don't have the coordination to swing a freeleg around while they lower their body and rotate!

I have a skater who does serious ballroom dancing - in heels - and can achieve the ideal sit spin position off the ice. In fact, I have my skaters practice wall squats both on and off the ice (I hold their toe pick with my blade so they won't shoot out under me!) This skater has a trainer and does daily off-ice but doesn't like to fall, nor "lose control" so unconsciously fights edges, speed and anything outside the comfort zone. I've tried everything - including the suggestion of using the 2" heels - but in this case, the skater's mind can't make the body work! However, most skaters I have taught eventually will get the spin when their other skating skills are also adequate. I think it has a lot to do with overall skill acquisition levels, which skaters master at different rates.

[RachelSk8er]

I personally have to think more about getting my butt down than about bending my knee and pushing my chest forward. I have a tendency to hunch my shoulders and roll them in too much when I try to get lower if I'm focused on my skating leg position. When I remember to get my big 'ol butt down and my head up, the spin automatically gets lower and my shoulders stay where they should be.

[doubletoe]

I personally have to think more about getting my butt down than about bending my knee and pushing my chest forward. I have a tendency to hunch my shoulders and roll them in too much when I try to get lower if I'm focused on my skating leg position. When I remember to get my big 'ol butt down and my head up, the spin automatically gets lower and my shoulders stay where they should be.

Oh yeah, you definitely need to think about lowering the butt rather than just bending the knee! But if you lower the butt without pushing your chest and free leg forward, the butt tends to end up on the ice. :lol: I should have clarified when I talked about pushing the chest forward that I really meant *arching the back* (which automatically pushes the chest forward). Looking at skaters do sitspins, they don't look like their backs are arched, but you need to feel like your back is really arched in order for it just to look straight. If you don't try to arch it, it will be rounded and that makes it very hard to do the spin.

You need to arch your back from the moment you step onto the entrance edge all the way until you stand up out of the spin, but I find it especially important during the free leg swing.

I'm not convinced that squats with heels will work well for most skaters. The pitch may be sufficient to theoretically put the skater on the sweet spot for the sit spin, but it is the inability to engage the major (and minor) muscles required to maintain the squat position, that are weak.

I agree that for just building muscle strength, squats in flat shoes are the best (you mean 2-footed squats, right?). However, the OP said her daughter could do a low shoot-the-duck, so it sounded like strength might not be the issue. If body position is the problem, it would make sense for her to practice one-legged deep knee bends in shoes with about a 2" heel to simulate the alignment over the ball of the blade while spinning.

[Virtualsk8r]

Or, simply practice the sit spin position off the ice wearing her skates......and on a spinner (the square plate kinds - not the plastic foot) ...if she can balance with the parent assisting.

[isakswings]

Today, I could hear her coach telling her to go lower and lower. She actually got fairly low and managed to stand herself back up and come out of the spin a few times. Here's hoping she pulls off a nice, centered sit spin Saturday! :)

It really is coming along. Now if only that back spin would come along faster! She has one, but some days it's pretty and other days...not so much! It's better in a scratch back spin but her regular back spin... oy! I don't think that will ever be her best spin! Hee hee.

[cazzie]

By the way isakswings, one thing my daughter says now (that if she'd thought about it) she would have been trying back sit spins from the word go. Her first exposure was when it was realised that she needed a sit-backsit for a program and she struggled initially. She did some practice ice doing the back sits on their own which helped but wish she'd started way sooner. She reckons its even harder to go low on her other leg. Its coming now - but she reckons life would be better as a skater when as each spin is taught the backspin is taught at the same time.

Her other theory by the way (if one wants to listen to theories from an 11 year old... and lol re the puberty statement -my daughters moods seem hormonal sometimes) is that all skaters should be taught to spin both ways and when she gets time in school holidays this is what she will be doing on patch ice.

Does anybody recommend cycling for strength btw?

(My very skinny 7 year old son has yet to manage coming up from a sit spin. He goes down.... and down.... spinning - until his bum hits the ice! He is not strong though and not yet motivated to do stuff off-ice. We've noticed his strength did improve last summer when we did a lot of cycling as a family and will probably do more once the weather improves).

[Clive]

isakwings -- my daughter's about the same age and level and is also having a struggle with the spins -- sit and camel. She has been working hard on getting the sit lower, but when she works on the camel-sit, she can't get the sit as low. Tell her your daughter she's not alone in her struggle!

[phoenix]

Also remember that sit spins tend to be a work in progress for quite awhile before they're "finished" -- ie, consistently low, balanced, and good position! It takes major muscles to do a really excellent sit spin, and those muscles take time to develop.

[londonicechamp]

Hi

Off ice leg squats do those sit spins wonder, in terms of getting lower. However, the first time when I practised on getting lower on Sunday, I can feel that not only my leg muscle, but also my right stomach muscle is pulling. Is that normal?

londonicechamp

[Tennisany1]

Core strength is everything. You use those muscles all the time especially to stabilize yourself. Think about how you get up from a sit spin - lots of core use or you would fall over! As long as it is just soreness and doesn't feel like you have actually injured yourself I would say it is just your body getting used to a new position.

[isakswings]

Thanks for everyone's comments!dd competed last weekend and did pretty well! Her program was going quite well and she pulled her sit spin off fine then after she came out of her sit spin, she had a brain freeze!! She got back on track and finished her program but my goodness...poor kid! She still placed pretty well..2nd out of 7 but poor dd! This is where improve practice would come in handy, right??? LOL I will say she did get her spin pretty low tho! :)

[isakswings]

isakwings -- my daughter's about the same age and level and is also having a struggle with the spins -- sit and camel. She has been working hard on getting the sit lower, but when she works on the camel-sit, she can't get the sit as low. Tell her your daughter she's not alone in her struggle!

Thanks Clive! She will likely be working on her camel/sit the next few months as we are likely moving her up to non-test for the next competition. She managed a good sit spin(with some travel tho) but then promptly forgot her program! LOL. Maybe she was focusing too hard on making her spin lower?? I don't know. Good luck to your daughter! Figure skating is a hard sport but it is very rewarding to watch all the hard work pay off, huh?

[isakswings]

Also remember that sit spins tend to be a work in progress for quite awhile before they're "finished" -- ie, consistently low, balanced, and good position! It takes major muscles to do a really excellent sit spin, and those muscles take time to develop.

Thanks! Dd has been commenting on her stomach muscles and I have to wonder if her sit spin has something to do with that! She's been working hard on them! Now if we could get her back spin to be stronger!

[isakswings]

By the way isakswings, one thing my daughter says now (that if she'd thought about it) she would have been trying back sit spins from the word go. Her first exposure was when it was realised that she needed a sit-backsit for a program and she struggled initially. She did some practice ice doing the back sits on their own which helped but wish she'd started way sooner. She reckons its even harder to go low on her other leg. Its coming now - but she reckons life would be better as a skater when as each spin is taught the backspin is taught at the same time.

Her other theory by the way (if one wants to listen to theories from an 11 year old... and lol re the puberty statement -my daughters moods seem hormonal sometimes) is that all skaters should be taught to spin both ways and when she gets time in school holidays this is what she will be doing on patch ice.

Does anybody recommend cycling for strength btw?

(My very skinny 7 year old son has yet to manage coming up from a sit spin. He goes down.... and down.... spinning - until his bum hits the ice! He is not strong though and not yet motivated to do stuff off-ice. We've noticed his strength did improve last summer when we did a lot of cycling as a family and will probably do more once the weather improves).

Oh that blasted back spin! That is such a hard spin for dd! Sometimes she pulls it off beautifully, other times it looks like she had no idea how to do it! LOL. It frustrates her to no end. Her sit is improving and her camel is coming along too. She can pull off some really pretty camel spins sometimes! Anyway... love your daughter's insight! Gonna have to share that with dd!

[kayskate]

This is what worked for me.

Getting back up:
Bring free leg in and push up with free toe. This is just a training exercise until skater builds muscle to get up. Once the skater can get up, discontinue the toe push. IMO, it is better than sitting down b/c you can learn to finish the spin while building the req'd muscle.

Going all the way down.
Grab the free leg as the spin comes around and descends. The first time I did this I went all the way down Boitano style. Don't know why it works, but it does. Also, relax while spinning. IMO, tension keeps the skater up. Allow the body to relax, not go limp but relax and get comfortable. The centrifugal force of the spin keeps the skater balanced and spinning. Personally, I never had a low shoot-the-duck, but had the deepest of sit spins. the Lussi vi has great advice.

Speed:
Try to get down in first rotation right out of the 3turn. Hesitating makes it more difficult to achieve the momentum needed to get down and achieve speed. The wide arc of the free leg from the 3turn is essential to a fast spin, sit or otherwise. The faster the spin, the easier it is to hold the position and get up.

Kay

[doubletoe]

Hi

Off ice leg squats do those sit spins wonder, in terms of getting lower. However, the first time when I practised on getting lower on Sunday, I can feel that not only my leg muscle, but also my right stomach muscle is pulling. Is that normal?

Yes, because you use your lower abdominals and hip flexor on the right side to keep your right leg lifted in front of you as you spin. Make sure you stretch it out with some hip flexor stretches after skating. This is also a good reason to work on the back sitspin to build the opposite side at the same time and keep the muscles in balance. I have the same problem so I should listen to my own advice on this, LOL!

[londonicechamp]

Hi doubletoe

I checked with my coach last night. I told her sometimes I feel my right abdominal muscles pulling when I am working on the sit spin. She said that that may be coz I am getting used to a new position and do not know that I have muscles in that area until now. She said that she won't worry if it is just slight pulling. However, if it really hurts (meaning aches), then I should let her know.

I also managed to do it from the free leg wide open position. :lol:

londonicechamp