How do you teach waltz jump?

[kayskate]

I have a private student who is taking grp lessons also and has a different coach for grp. She is learning the waltz jump. I teach the waltz with the free leg kicking straight through. I stress the classic waltz w straight legs in the air. I like to see a nice straight reach. However, the student's grp coach teaches it by kicking the knee up. I prefer to use the knee method as a precursor to an axel. The student is kicking through w a bent knee. She told me this is how her other coach teaches. Both methods are correct, but I want her to learn the classic version first, as she is nowhere near and axel. I want her to understand reach for the rest of her jumps. I have told her both methods are correct (I would not discredit the other coach, b/c she is correct. I just don't favor this method at this pt of the skater's development), but I also explained why I want her to do the straight leg kick.

How do you teach the waltz jump?

Kay

[Kim to the Max]

I teach the classic straight leg waltz jump as well. I tell my students to pretend they are kicking a soccer ball and kick straight through. I find that they get more distance and more height by starting with a straight leg waltz instead of the stop/"h" waltz, which I prefer more for a drill for an axel.

[Isk8NYC]

I teach the classic straight through kick - I want them to do a split in the air as they cross the axis. It's a simple jump, so that adds a challenge. A lot of inexperienced coaches.

There's plenty of time to teach the "knee through" or "h" position once they have a strong waltz jump. I feel it holds beginners back from really rolling up off the toepick or reaching the pinnacle of the jump because it forces early rotation. (MHO) It also doesn't really require as much physical exertion - that free leg swing and in-air movement is an important skill for them to learn early on.

On another note: don't believe everything students tell you. Sometimes, they mistake a correction drill for the "correct way to always do it."

In addition, if you are her private coach, your methods take priority over the group coach's. When teaching groups, I always ask the students if they take privates and with whom, so that I know to not change or insist on different methods.

The best example I can think of is the one-foot spin entry. Some coaches pre-rotate both shoulders going into the spin, I keep the free arm back until the free leg comes around to spin.

Memorize this mantra: Different is just different, it's not wrong. Go with what works for the skater.

[phoenix]

I teach it straight.

On a side note, I would talk w/ the group coach. IMO, the private coach has the final say in this situation, but you can make a great advocate/helper in the group coach if you approach them & discuss the student, tell them some of the things you'd like them to remind the student in class, etc. Explain that you want the waltz jump done straight, and please remind the student to do it this way when practicing it in the class. Hopefully the group coach is a pro who understands the heirarchy of this situation & will help you out.

IMO, one of the worst things is for a young skater to have more than one coach IF they don't corroborate & agree amongst themselves how things are done & reinforced. Otherwise, it does more harm than good & only confuses the skater.

I have several students who I share w/ different coaches & we always confer to be sure we're all on the same page.

[Skate@Delaware]

It may be a matter of the student "going with the flow" of whatever coach she has at the time and not knowing who's instruction takes precedence. Perhaps this would be a good time for her to learn to advocate for herself "my private coach prefers I do it this way" sort of polite response.

I was taught to "knee" the waltz and it is so much harder to undo that and re-learn the other way. I teach it straight-leg.

[fsk8r]

Not related to teaching waltz jumps but I know one kid who had a coach A spin and a coach B spin. The two were completely different in her mind and she practiced them as such. I did explain to her that one day the two would merge into one, but it was more the different emphasis from the different coaches she had. One was focussing in getting a tight position and lots of revolutions and the other was more concerned with the entrance edge and centering.
I don't think it did the kid too much harm as she was able to keep the two distinct in her head and I used to find it amusing. But I did think how clever of her to realise that she had to satisfy both coaches requirements and that no approach was "right".

[kayskate]

I will talk to the other coach. Other coach is a high level skater and still competes. However, he is a beginning coach. One poster mentioned not to take the student's interpretation of Coach B's instructions too literally as student may be misunderstanding. Another of Coach B's students who I also teach does a straight leg waltz, but I got to her first and probably ingrained my technique or Coach B does teach a straight leg. I will have to talk to Coach B. Thanks for the input!

Kay

[Isk8NYC]

One poster mentioned not to take the student's interpretation of Coach B's instructions too literally as student may be misunderstanding. I mentioned it because that happened to me on a GROUP student's waltz jump. The other coach is outstanding, so when the student told me that she was taught to hold her hands in front of her belly button in a circle before she did the t-push, I questioned her. She insisted that "her coach" told her to always do it that way and she just would not put her hands by her sides before takeoff.

I adore the coach in question, so I doubted myself first. A few days later, I was chatting with her and asked about it. It turned the coach had subbed for a few weeks in a group lesson - she wasn't the skater's private coach, she just finished up someone else's session. She didn't remember ever telling her to hold her hands in that position, but said she may have told her to put them there to stop the "flapping arms."

She teaches waltz jumps with the same arms and kick through that I do, but as the skater starts landing higher-level jumps, she'll teach them the "knee through" as part of the axel prep. I had a tremendous amount of respect for this high-level skater and PSA-rated coach, so I follow her lead in teaching waltz jumps.

You have remember that you're a teacher and take things children (and even some adults) say with a grain of salt. If in doubt, check it out.

[Mrs Redboots]

Not quite what you were asking, but my last coach used to take his skaters to one of the blue hockey lines and tell them to imagine it was a ditch full of piranha fish or crocodiles or something that they had to jump over...

[slusher]

I was taught knee and I teach knee. I want to teach snap from the beginning. My co-coach teaches reach and wants speed. We know that we teach different approaches to things which is the most important point.

[Schmeck]

I was at an ISI skating show, and noticed that most of the skaters had the gosh-ugliest axels - the bent knee thing was overdone and not conducive to a good jump at all. Is there a difference between ISI and USFSA on how to do an axel?

[kayskate]

http://www.icoachskating.com/site.php/spgs/read/VT_ToHi_005

I found this clip of tom Hickey teaching a waltz jump to his daughter. He teaches split legs w a kick through. he has some good suggestions for teaching that I will try.

Kay

[Skate@Delaware]

Not quite what you were asking, but my last coach used to take his skaters to one of the blue hockey lines and tell them to imagine it was a ditch full of piranha fish or crocodiles or something that they had to jump over...
I start with "stepping over" the hockey line....then we build up from there. It gets them used to a straight leg approach, building up speed, and not thinking about it as a jump but stepping over (some kids freak out about jumping, especially older-these are the ones I get).

[doubletoe]

I have had a number of coaches, but the one who gave me the best waltz jump taught it as 3 distinct positions in the air:

1) Facing the direction of travel with the right leg extended straight in front
2) Facing 1/4 turn to the left so that the shoulders and hips are squared (like a middle split)
3) Facing backward, so that the skater is now looking at the left leg extended in front of her
At this point, the skater scissors the left leg from the front to back for landing.

This technique gives the waltz jump great control, distance and almost a delayed look. Only after mastering this classic waltz jump and the waltz loop did she teach me the bent leg waltz jump in preparation for the axel.