Why ice dance fans are insane :)

[Jack]

I just noticed that the Gibbons and Pekarek thread was locked down and I can't say I blame the moderators, it's their board, they can do what they want to do. I have to kind of laugh though, because it was so obvious from the start where that thread would end up going, right to the gutter. So, as we venture into a new season, my question is... "What makes ice dance fans go insane?" Seriously.

I think a healthy, sane conversation about why we are insane would really help future threads about dance. We don't see people getting all hot and bothered about AP's coach, or about the politics of pairs, do we?? So why is it that as soon as a thread about ice dance is started do we all begin attacking eachother and claiming to be insiders and have all this knowledge and power? Why do we have to connect all sorts of drama with this sport?

I'm interested in starting an intelligent and fruitful conversation with all sorts of ice dance fans here. Why do we get so passionate about ice dance? Besides the obvious answers here, such as "It's a beautiful sport".

My belief right now on why we go nuts is this: Ice dance is beautiful, it seems so pure when watching it. Nothing "dirty" or scandolous could possibly be attached to this. Slowly but surely that belief was chiseled away by one controversy after another and now I am so jaded about this darn sport that I can not believe that anything good will EVER happen in ice dancing. So instead of seeing the beauty that drew me to the sport, all I see is the backgound dealings, the politics, the fake boobs in the dresses (oh yes, they do) and the rotten judging.

So why do you think we are all nuts??

[Anjelica]

Well Jack, I don't think we are all nuts! I do think that ice dance today is a very frustrating sport for everyone involved including the athletes, fans and parents. First of all it's such a difficult sport here in the US especially, mainly due to the lack of American boys for partners. And I do agree with the post that certain coaches do feel like 'you have no talent but your parents are loaded so I'll coach you'. (Hopefully that statement won't cause this thread to get closed too!) It seems that families and skaters in the US get so much invested in ice dancing and then the results as far as medals go just aren't ever there on the international stage. Well that can lead to alot of frustration and desperate behavior! I mean if an American girl is lucky enough to find a partner in the first place then they have to find the right coach, and there just aren't alot of those to choose from! Then even if they find a coach it's not always possible to get that coach to agree to teach them! Then the families invest thousands of dollars and their whole lives so needless to say they are hoping to get something out of it. Well I feel like I'm rambling here; I'm actually kind of afraid to really post what I think about this because I don't want to cause the thread to be closed. So I'll just leave it at that.

[Rachel]

Let's just say that some are more insane than others and that not all of the insane ones are what you would consider just fans. In fact, some of the more insane dance posters are what you might call too close to the situation to understand their own insanity.

My theory is that in all disciplines, the discussions are the ugliest when the competition is close--as examples, take almost any Irina/Michelle debate, or any of the threads that followed the Olympic pairs competition. In pairs and singles, however, the competition is rarely so close that there IS a huge debate. In dance, the differences aren't so obvious. Every dancer on the planet is convinced that he or she has been robbed or victimized by politics. This attitude is usually shared by the friends, family members and ardent fans of particular couples. It tends to make a lot of people fall into fiercely partisan camps, which can skew some people's perception of reality and make them take everything far more personally than is normal or healthy.

I do sympathize with family members, friends and ardent fans of skaters; you'd have to have to a pretty tough hide to hang out here and NOT take offense at some of the things that are said. I sure would. But I'm not crazy enough to torture myself by hanging out in places where things are said that I would find hurtful and upsetting.

[kia]

Thousands of dollars can be invested in a dance couple and because of the subjectiveness of the discipline a preferred couple may not win and their fans cannot understand why-even/especially when they may know the faults and the deductions. In dance more than any other discipline their appears to be more politics and manipulation of results than in any other sport. Style plays an importnant part and it depends if the judges like this style or not.I think fans believe they can talk up their favourite skater or talk down the competition. Until the ISU makes it a real sport and not just a' fanciful event' there will always be tension among supporters and fans....-from a dance fan who at times can be very uspet with the judging.

[Miss.Issippi]

A few weeks before Skate America ... what a great time to begin a discussion like this! Thanks Jack!!
In order to be an ardent (dictionary meaning of ardent is: impassioned, fiery, eager zealous support) ice dance fan ya gotta love those ice dancers. Just like a great teacher brings out the best in their students, ice dancers bring out that crazy side in each of us.
I've not become jaded in the least concerning the state of ice dance.
I think it's going through a metamorphisis that will heighten the creativity and make it better.
The drama, the flambouyance, and the raw passion sets ice dancers apart from all the other skating disciplines. Ice dancers always seem to be living on the edge with the hair, costumes, partner changes,coaching chances, new programs that push the envelope, etc. ...
You have to be totally insane as a fan just to keep up with it all.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Jack
I think a healthy, sane conversation about why we are insane would really help future threads about dance.
What I would consider a healthy, sane conversation about ice dance or any other issues would include:
-expressing one's opinion as one's opinion
-not stating inaccurate information as something factual when it's not or it's an opinion
-supporting an opinion with a reason
Several people on that thread were very clear as to why they disagreed with certain posts. I would generally not find any point of view credible when it's a defamatory type of statement: "So & so abandoned so & so" or "Coach X is guilty of inappropriate behavior" & there are no other remarks to support it. Of course, I'm as interested in the pros & cons as much as anybody else when links & other information is given.
Most message boards usually provide guidelines informing people to support their opinions. If some people choose not to do this, it's not like they don't know any better.

[Mazurka Girl]

For another example look at the "Are Jamie & Brandon Still Together" thread which was taken completely off topic by a couple posts.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Several people on that thread were very clear as to why they disagreed with certain posts. I would generally not find any point of view credible when it's a defamatory type of statement: "So & so abandoned so & so" or "Coach X is guilty of inappropriate behavior" & there are no other remarks to support it. Of course, I'm as interested in the pros & cons as much as anybody else when links & other information is given.


I agree, but let me just throw my two cents in about that. I read every post on any board as an opinion. And maybe I'm being naive to think that everyone is doing the same. For example, I don't think take the comments "so and so is fat" or "so and so abandoned so and so" to be any different. They are both opinions, one just "appears" to be more factual than another. I think one thing that would really help us is to bring a grain of salt to every post we read. I can get pretty worked up whenever I see things posted that I know to be outright lies, but I have to remember that every one sees things differently, so maybe that poster thinks they are telling the truth. It's hard to discern tone in a post as well, something intended as sarcasm may come across as a hard fact when that is not what was intended at all. (and for that reason, I highly encourage the use of smileys :D )

[duane]

Originally posted by kia
because of the subjectiveness of the discipline a preferred couple may not win and their fans cannot understand why. In dance more than any other discipline their appears to be more politics and manipulation of results than in any other sport.

i am not a huge dance fan, and what is stated above is the main reason. i dont know heads-or-tails of what the judges are actually looking for in their judging, or why one dance team is considered superior to another. i've watched b&k constantly marked much lower than other dance teams, tho i personally think they are as superior as those who consistently place above them. however, since ice dance doesnt have the skating aspects that the other disciplines have, where one can make obvious comparisons (jumps, spins, spirals, overhead lifts, etc), ice dance is a much more subjective discipline, making it harder for a nonskater (like myself) to make true judgements of which team is better. my opinion usually comes down to which team makes me say "that was nice!" :?

[AxelAnnie22]

I hate to tell 'ya Jack, but I think there are "fans" in all four disciplines who can have a perfectly rational conversation regarding lots of skaters, elements, programs, coaches, or whatever. And then WHAMMO! There is that one comment about that one thing, and that perfectly rational person has turned INSANE. It is not just ice dance. Although, Ice Dance is less quantifyable, and that leaves even more room for interpretation.

I would like to see a few rules adopted by each of us:
1. Read your post before you send it.
2. Delete any word/words that might be (even unintentionally) prejorative or inflamatory.
3. Remember your opinion is just that - your opinion - unless G-d has been broadcasting directly to you from atop Mt. Siani.
4. Support your assertion with a fact or reason.
5. Always remember that you are directing your post to or about a person.......not a thing.
6. This is figure skating, not world hunger or a curew for cancer we are discussing.
7 A sense of humor is always appreciated.

[Louis]

Perception is everything in ice dance. There are few really disruptive errors in dance, so if Team A is perceived to better than Team B, they're almost always going to beat them.

The same thing holds true with Kwan and Slutskaya. Both are very consistent skaters who rarely make major mistakes. Whichever one is perceived to be better wins. To a lesser extent, this is true of S&P/B&S as well.

When decisions come down to the quality of basic skating, it makes for easy heated debate between the respective skater fan factions. Many people either consciously or unconsciously feel threatened when others suggest that their team's best may not be *the* best.

[AxelAnnie22]

[i] Many people either consciously or unconsciously feel threatened when others suggest that their team's best may not be *the* best. [/B] I agree with what you say. I just don't understand why a person feels threatened because a skater they like is not perceived to be the best? Kinda weird, don't you think?

[Rachel]

It's weird, but it's also kind of entertaining to see how the same posters come rushing in the instant someone says anything that might be interpreted as a criticism of their chosen one.

It's especially funny to see those same people criticize others for doing the same thing.

As for the opinion/fact thing--I know an opinion when I see one. I would hope other people do, too, regardless of how something is stated. Statements are either accepted at face value or they are not. If they are not, other people can ask for an explanation or argue with the conclusion. That's a natural part of discussion and debate.

I guess I would find it a lot easier to understand the lecture if it appeared in, say, every thread where someone stated an opinion without supporting it. It would mean posting the same lecture on virtually every thread, but it would be worth it. Of course, then people would start complaining about all the long, involved posts they had to read, and most of the supporting arguments would turn out to be pretty worthless anyway, but at least we wouldn't have this opinion/fact problem to worry about.

[speedy]

It's obvious from a lot of posts I've read on this board (and other boards) that several parents of skaters post on here. Why they would want to subject themselves to having to read skating fans' opinions about their children is beyond me, but I'm sure that's part of the reason behind some of the emotional posts and controversial statements made. They may know exactly what's going on behind the scenes but can't talk about it, or if they do they are accused of not providing proof. Personally I don't really care to read the "gossipy" side of skating, but in a weird way it does help me make up my mind about pulling for certain skaters when I hear how they act outside of the public's eye. It's hard for me to pull for a jerk, whether it be Barry Bonds or a skater that acts like a brat.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
4. Support your assertion with a fact or reason.
That's the number 1 problem I had with that thread. It can be a couple sentences, it's not like anyone has to write a book.

There is a difference between comments like "skater x is fat" (a perception usually considered a visual/societal opinion unless comments include that skater x's last weigh in was 200 lbs :)) vs. a statement like "skater or coach x abandoned, abused, stole, molested, solicited or whatever" which is negative action statement. A pretty clear line is crossed when discussing potentially defamatory behavior which would indicate that someone who wants to post about it needs to include comprehensive comments. IMO omitting a reason indicates they don't really want to communicate point of view or simply want to take a swipe at someone.

I'm not the crazed fan type, I like discussing skating more than specific skaters or personalities. I come to the board for information & to read different points of view. But whether positive or negative, I prefer to see them expressed accurately. If someone has time to type "coach x is a thieving jerk who abuses little children", then they have time to add 1 or 2 sentences to support it. That's not an unrealistic expectation for a discussion.

[Rachel]

Most people who don't provide support for their opinions do so because they believe that what they are saying is obviously true and doesn't need to be supported. Those people are nearly always surprised when asked for an explanation, and often can't provide one. This is particularly true when assertions are made based on gossip, because the poster spreading the gossip usually can't or won't reveal the source of the information.

Saying that one ice dancer abandoned his partner is just as much a matter of perception as saying a dancer is fat, because both have to do with how a certain person perceives things, visually or otherwise. I don't think defamation is even a remote possibility in that instance.

Accusing someone publicly of criminal activity without having a criminal conviction to back it up, OTOH, is defamatory, unless it can be proven true. Yet people on this board and all other skating boards constantly accuse the judges at competitions, the ISU heirarchy and assorted skating officials of being corrupt, which is absolutely defamatory. But because so many people believe those accusations to be true, posters are rarely called on those assertions, nor do we see posts hectoring people for not making clear distinctions between opinion and fact. It all depends on what is accepted at face value and what is not.

Funny how different things bother different people, isn't it?

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Rachel
Funny how different things bother different people, isn't it?
It sounds like there's a presumption being made that people are reading all of the scandal threads yet not choosing to challenge them because they agree. I am one of many I know who doesn't even open the vast majority of the scandal threads because they are the same old unproven points of view. The last thread I remember reading is the Ron Pfenning topic, & it seems to me there were plenty of challenges in both directions.

Many things are not against the law (cheating, abadonment, soliciting students) that are viewed negatively by society or the skating world. Those issues are best discussed based on comprehensive information.

Some people like clear writing with supported viewpoints. Nothing more, nothing less. That's not unreasonable, it's a discussion board which means there's an emphasis on communication.

[Jack]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl
If someone has time to type "coach x is a thieving jerk who abuses little children", then they have time to add 1 or 2 sentences to support it. That's not an unrealistic expectation for a discussion.

Great point!

[Rachel]

It sounds like there's a presumption being made that people are reading all of the scandal threads yet not choosing to challenge them because they agree.

No, that is not the case at all. First of all, I wasn't referring to scandal threads. What made you assume that I was? I certainly didn't say anything of the kind. You can find "the judging sucks" in all kinds of threads on this board and, in any case, that was simply an example of a common type of defamatory statement made on this board. Second, I have never assumed that people who don't respond to statements agree with them; what a foolish idea. I simply don't see a lot of people attacking others for stating unsupported opinions in most cases, whether they are defamatory or not. The only time someone gets uptight about it is when that someone strongly disagrees with the opinion being stated. My point was not that people shouldn't support their assertions; my point was that unsupported assertions alone aren't really the issue. The problem is never the WAY something is said; it's WHAT was said that sets people off. Philosophical issues don't really have a whole lot to do with it.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Rachel
The problem is never the WAY something is said; it's WHAT was said that sets people off.
I disagree because form can often be as relevant as content to effective communication. I wouldn't consider it a never or always issue.

I thought in your previous you were talking about the scandal topics due to the references to criminal activity & convictions, corrupt skating officials & ISU heirarchy. Sorry if I misread.