Mental toughness

[cazzie]

I'm really trying to improve my dd's resiliance in dealing with another ice-skater. Girl her age - new to club - skating much, much longer than she has. They quickly became best friends. Its been obvious to me and husband that she constantly puts my daughter down - comments have been made in front of us on several occasions!


Our daughter has only been doing very regular skating for about 2 years (3 times per week started January 2008 - gradually increased from about April/May 2008 and more recently about 8 hours on ice per week split between dance and free) and I think for the amount she has skated she is doing great. Her strong points are "performance and artistic" (whatever that means) and edges and turns and general speed across the ice. She isn't the most talented child you'd ever meet and she isn't the most talented jumper and it hits her self-esteem hard enough without the additional put downs. (Unfortunately my daughter rates everything about her skating in terms of jumps and disregards any prizes she may have won for artistic etc. I think she's amazing to be doing some doubles already - but - what do I know about skating...).

Today dd was practicing on patch ice with a good friend of hers and the other girl came with another skater and asked dd to show her "double toe'. Now double toe happens to be my daughters worst jump ever - think she's landed about 3 or 4 ever and she has a real thing about her poor double toe. She resisted and finally did one - and obviously fell quite hard on her rear end. The two girls laughed and it turned out one had told the other that my daughter was bragging that she had a consistent double toe and they decided to humiliate her. The friend my daughter was practicing with came to her defence (said loudly my daughter had never claimed to land double toe) and daughter and friend went on practicing and managed to ignore it - but - daughter was really rattled. And - what should have been complete fun was rather a bit spoilt for her!

One of the things I love about my daughter and her skating is that its something she loves more than anything else in the world and I love her relaxed calmness when she comes off the ice. However we do see less of this when she is subjected to put-downs (which are happening more nad more frequently) - to the extent I was actually asking her recently if she still really loved skating as much as she used to.

My daughter is getting tougher but - has a long way to go and is way too forgiving for her own good - generally has always been well-liked within her club - but this (on a constant basis) with small numbers of other children recruited to join in is really, really difficult. (Surprisingly if this other girl is nice to my daughter tomorrow today will be forgotten and forgiven - but - the next put-down won't be far away!)

I toy with the idea of talking to the coaches. (Would regard chats to the other parents as a no-no.....)

Any other idea's?

I'm trying to get dd to engage more with other children and avoiding play-dates with this particular skating friend.


I'm working really hard at trying to get my daughter to
be more positive about her own skating. Although she does only really low- level competitions she has some elderly fans who always look out for her at these competitions as they tell me they just love to watch her skate. She's had really positive comments from judges at tests and the one competition judge I spoke to was very, very positive about her grace, musicality and performance. She thinks this is "nothing" .

I'm also working really hard on my daughter to try and get her not to compare herself to others and will be talking even more with coaches about individual goals as well as getting my daughter to feel proud when she achieves the goals SHE is working towards and not comparing herself to others. I want to have a child who can ignore comments like that and can come off the ice calm and happy and relaxed.

(Daughter has recently turned 11. )

[falen]

if you find a way for someone to ignore mean comments tell me!

I am an adult and have difficulty. There are mean people everywhere. All I can say is just be there for her, maybe try to avoid sessions with her.

[Tennisany1]

I would speak with your daughter's coach. That behaviour is totally unacceptable. I don't know what the coaching environment is at your rink (do the kids share the same coach?) but I know that kind of behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud right now. Your dd's coach should be made aware of the situation so she/he can keep an eye out. When the coach witnesses similar behaviour (always better than hearsay from you) she can deal with it if the other child is her student or speak with the other coach. The thing about kids like that is that she is probably doing this to other kids as well.

As for coping strategies for your dd, once your coach is onside and knows what is going on, teach your dd to roll her eye and skate away from the other girl when she starts with the bully behaviour. Your dd should practice a look in the mirror that says "how immature is that." She shouldn't ever say it (that wouldn't be nice ;) ) but she can do a good eye roll, a great look, and then skate away. The other girl probably does the things she does for the reaction. If she doesn't get one, or is embarrassed by your daughter's response (not that dd is trying to embarrass, or course) she will probably stop.

Oh, and having your dd ask the girl nicely to please stop (that is what they teach in the anti bullying programs around here) will never work. Unfortunately it is usually seen as weakness and you know where that leads.

[kssk8fan]

About six months ago, I could have easily written that same exact post. It's taken a while but I've learned a few things lately, that I'll be glad to share. First of all - stand up for your daughter! If you don't, no one will - Talk to her coach and let her coach know you don't approve of this behavior and that it will stop! IMO - it's jealousy....jumps can be taught but artistry and musicality is innate and doesn't come natural for many people, especially young skaters! Seems as if your daughter may have that "it" factor. Regardless of technical ability - everyone loves to watch her skate....that's a huge advantage and my guess is that the other skater knows this!

I've had many conversations about mental toughness with my DD and I was at the point of suggesting finding another sport about 6 months ago when it finally clicked with my DD. After a session where my DD came off totally humiliated, isolated, and just plain sad.....I told her two things. 1) always remember how they made you feel so you don't EVER treat others the same way.....and 2) the best revenge (and I'm not an advocate for revenge) is to just get better than them in all areas.

I don't know why this helped connect the dots or whatever but it did! I guess I was sort of giving her permission to "fight back" in ways that were comfortable for her without sacrificing her personality.

After that, she progressed 1000 times faster than before....was jumping like there was no tomorrow.....and was actually jumping in front of them (something she never did before). Now, 6 months later - she's right up to level of one of the girls and has surpassed three of the others.

We don't talk about it, dwell on it, or disgrace the others. She skates for herself now and the difference it's made has been wonderful. The lessons she's learned throughout the process have been priceless....Most importantly to never treat anyone the way she was treated by those other girls. That's a life lesson that she will remember throughout her entire life and for that, I'm grateful.

[Skate@Delaware]

That type of behavior is bullying-plain and simple. Your daughter needs to learn to stand up for herself.

Dr. Phil did a show recently and helped a young girl around your daughter's age stand up for herself against bullies. A counseler was there to assist and her advice was a unique approach.

What? - ask "What?" and look befuddled, repeat their questions repeatedly, the bullies eventually grow frustrated and move on.

Wow!!! - act amazed like they said the most profound thing.

Whatever - act like it doesn't bother you, which will take practice

Why? - ask them "Why are you saying/acting/ etc this?" which is a more confrontational approach but it does put them more on the spot.

They also suggested PRACTICING with someone, a parent, friend, etc so you are more at ease....the person helping you can vary their response, just as a bully might.

I hope these help.

[cazzie]

THanks for so many helpful replies.

Yes - daughter does share the same coach, in the group classes they tend to be coached together and more than that they are in the same class at school.

My daughter did keep quiet for ages about what was happening - initially I heard more from parents of other skaters whose children were telling their parents things that had taken place. And yes - I did have it reported by one parent that my daughter was politely asking the other child to stop because it was hurting her feelings/making her annoyed etc. - so - its a technique that hasn't worked.

I guess what has been so surprising in all this is that at school my daughter is quite effective at both standing up for herself/avoiding/not being in the least bit bothered by the "queen bee's" and she tends to be left alone by them. I guess with how important skating is to my daughter and the fact that
doubles/axels haven't come that easily makes it easy for others to tap into her massive insecurity over these.

I'm hoping that you're right kssk8fan and that if she stands up for herself maybe the skating will be easier. I can tell when she is upset on the ice when she will fling herself harder and harder (sometimes going into the air non-vertically and/or with stupidly high height) and fall everywhere not even particularly trying to protect herself when falling - and her coach has spoken to me about dd "trying too hard" and over-rotating etc. and that her jumping is better when she is relaxed.

I'll be having some difficult conversations with coaches and trying lots of practice with my daughter. Daughter's other skating friend does a very good "so?", "so?" etc. when faced with this other girl and it did seem to work really well for her.

And if dd can just get her wretched double toe, she may well move up a group (of course the other child tooand maybe she'll move earlier than myd daughter) where relationships are likely to be more diluted due to the presense of more children of similar ability and more random groupings!

[sk8tmum]

One of the things I most value in our primary coach is her absolute refusal to tolerate bullying among her skaters. She watches for it, addresses it, and expects her senior skaters to keep an eye out for it happening in her younger skaters. Where it occurs, there are directive conversations with the student, with the parent, and, were it to continue, the coaching relationship would end. However, as she teaches directly expectations on sportsmanship, all of her skaters learn very early that it is not a line to be crossed.

She will also address it with other coaches. Which is terrifying to watch.

She expects skaters to exhibit "mental toughness" and coaches them early and often about the realities of this type of nastiness occurring on the ice, in the dressing room, and the arena. Depending on the level of maturity, there are different levels of "intervention" done by the coach - i.e. an 8 year old is not expected to resolve issues in the same way as, say, a 13 year old. HOWEVER: the senior skaters on her "team" are always expected to support the tinies, and to model positive behaviour at all times (or else :twisted:)

We've had tons of cr**P happen over the years, and it is never pleasant. However, we are proud of the fact that our kids do NOT participate in bullying themselves.

Has bullying happened among her skaters? Sure. It's a competitive sport, and I find that "diva" behaviour happens a great deal among parents and skaters. But, it is never ignored, and never tolerated.

I know that this level of behaviour expectation is part of why we chose our coach over others of equal calibre. There are others in the rink who encourage nasty behaviour and cliquey-ness, and we would never have them in any dealings with our children.

[sk8tmum]

THanks for so many helpful replies.

Yes - daughter does share the same coach, in the group classes they tend to be coached together and more than that they are in the same class at school.

You might want to think about school as well. If it is happening on the ice, it may be happening at school, and that concerns me. Is the ice a spillover from school/is school getting a spillover from the ice. If it is happening in both places, that's a lot of stress on your kid.

As a teacher, I do appreciate it if parents give me a "headsup" on this sort of thing, so I can watch for it and do what I can to mitigate it or to work on resolving any conflicts that happen in the class. The skating conflict may be a side issue to school - it would surprise me if dynamics were good at school but not on the ice, and, if they are, what is the difference at school that is making it work for the two girls as opposed to the ice? There are less observers at school, and you may not be getting that outside commentary about issues that you've had about occurences on the ice.

[londonicechamp]

Hi cazzie

Very sorry to know about what is happening to your dd on ice.

Yes, she does have to stand up for herself. Through all this experience, she will get tougher and will improve quicker than the others hopefully.

However, please do make sure that you talk to your dd's coach about the bullying behaviour.

Actually bullying happens not only to kids, also to adults like myself. Please see separate post that I am going to post here.

[cazzie]

Well - as sk8tmum mentioned - yes - sounds like it definately crosses over into school. DD in floods of tears for about 2 hours this evening about return to school! And it does feel like a big spill-over between skating and school.

Recent spin, spiral, jump competition - daughter going through one of her bad axel phases (you know the ones where you accidently do a double axel and fall really hard) and this was imitated in a comedic way to quite a few classmates - who obviously laughed at the humourous display. Quite a lot of other similar stories I've heard where she has been put down. No wonder the skating is feeling so stuck.

DD is planning on joining quite a few lunchtime clubs to keep out of the way of what can happen on the playground and some days of the week is allowed to spend time in the library at lunchbreak. May be having a chat with her teacher though if the first few days of school are as bad as she is predicting.

[falen]

this is way beyond mental toughness. What you are describing is pure harassment. No one can get mentally tough over that kind of treatment!

[sk8tmum]

Please talk to the teacher, and perhaps even the principal or vice-principal. They will want to help you out; and, frankly, if it continues, you want it documented. No kid should be miserable anywhere, and, if it is in school and out of school, particularly if it's happening where she's supposed to be having fun and joy, it has to be sorted out. The sooner the better, as well; otherwise, it just escalates and gets worse. It won't go away by itself.

Give your kid a hug from all of us here; been there with my own kids.

[Schmeck]

Check to see if the school has a bullying policy - this is classic girl-style bullying, and should be dealt with ASAP.

[cazzie]

I spoke to the teacher today who was so helpful and reassuring. Totally gets my daughters personality and how she works, who she is. Some strategies in place (e.g. re-arranging the class, trying to vary who group together with group work). She said my daughter has been a very good friend to two children within the class who are quite vulnerable and have really needed a friend. Also told me my daughter is way more well-liked than she perceives (we had so much of the "everybody hates me"). She has had two coaching sessions not coached with this particular girl and we can already see the difference in her skating. (Not quite the jumps yet - although is back to landing some axels and doubles - but - her spins today were the best we've seen in weeks). She said she felt relaxed and free and happy and just enjoyed herself on the ice and can't wait to skate tomorrow. (Snow willing! The child has set her alarm for something ridiculous because unlikely we'll get our car out of our road tomorrow). She has also agreed to take in her medals and tropies from her local skate club into school (school encourage children to bring these in whatever they acheive in) which is something she swore she wouldn't do because of fear of what the pay back would be.

[cazzie]

I guess I'm asking as far away from home as possible because i'm really trying hard not to play the same game my daughter is subjected to - so not having conversations with any parents around me.

The girl in question (mentioned above) continues to make my child's life really difficult.

At rink - ongoing rumour spreading about my daughter. The kids - who have known my daughter longer and like my daughter keep carrying on saying "maybe you accidently hurt her feelings so maybe you should buy her a present to say sorry" and "she says she is desperate to be friends with you but that you refuse to have anything to do with her and her feelings are really hurt" - my daughter has no idea how to respond. Daughter has said - I've tried really hard but I don't think buying presents is the answer and I have said I'm sorry if I've done anything to hurt her so I don't think there is more that I can do. I'd rather not keep talking about it and lets still be friends. (I think quite a mature approach but its not making the difficulties go away). When my daughter is chatting to friends (off the ice of course) this girl does try to physically squeeze between my daughter and the other children. Some of them have got fed up and say something assertive but other times my daughter just walks away feeling quite upset.

At school - perhaps somewhat worse! Beginning of February the story told tot he whole class was "if I were you I'd avoid being friends with her. She is so clingy you can't breathe and you'll be so sorry if you are her friend." This week - she is accused of pushing that child into a swimming pool (they went swimming together once last August and I was in the pool with them the whole time)! Several girls have stopped talking to her in horror over this latest story. Some don't believe it.

My daughter has now had 2 months of weekly rumours and pretty horrible treatment. I spoke to the class teacher who said that my daughter is liked and does have friends and might be over-reacting to what is happening. She didn't feel there aws anything the school could do unless they catch what is happening.

I have no idea whether I even go so the school with the latest. What I do know is that my daughter has tried faking illness (pretended to vomit the other day) in order to avoid school even though she knew it meant missing skating that evening.

Additionally, this girl moved up a group a month ago. My daughter is due to move up on 1 March and now really doesn't want to.

Since that girl left her group she has felt much mroe relaxed and jumps/spins much better = however she has now landed enough double toes for them to feel she should move up (I'm guessing thats what its about - I've just had a letter from the rink saying she's moving up and nobody has spoken with me about it although I've emailed to try and get more details). She's tapped into some sessions in the group above hers and definately falls more in the higher group and I'm not sure if sub-consciously she's not wanting to be there or whether she is just more anxious!

This other girl is very able verbally. My daughter hates those sort of conversations and doesn't stand up for herself or answer back very often (she really should have been a boy lol) and keeps feeling that if she shuts up long enough everybody will get bored of it and not want to hear about it. She doesn't know when the other girl will run out of new and dramatic stories which gets everybody's attention!.

Any advice re school and rink welcomed. I did wonder if I should go into school (again) and ask about the teacher having chats about gossip and rumour spreading to the whole class or whether it is better to leave it.

(PS this girls mother is extremely hostile to both my daughter and me although if she sees my husband at the rink she'll kiss him on both cheeks and pretend to be the best of friends. Husband assiduously avoids her as he feels like blowing a fuse at her and is worried what he'll say!)

[fsk8r]

Please talk to the headteacher at your daughter's school. Whilst the classroom teacher might be toeing the telling tales line (I never understood that one when I was at school and most definitely not now I'm grown up), the headteacher should have an anti-bullying policy in place and should be able to help the classroom teacher deal with this.
I'd also talk to your daughter's coach. Is there a second group she could move up to at a different time? It sounds like your DD could do with some time away from this girl if only to relax. It's not nice being permanently on guard.

Sorry this isn't more helpful. I was bullied at school and don't know how I coped. The only time I ever said anything to my parents was when I was hit by a boy and the school's reaction was that he was leaving at the end of term. Didn't really help in the short term and my strategy for the female bullies was to have a couple of close friends and avoid situations where there'd be a problem. I hope your DD can find the inner strength to overcome this.

[miraclegro]

Well, it looks like a lot of good tips are here for you.

But i will toss this in: I grew up in a wonderful home environment and was taught to be kind to others. Later, as a young adult had to endure sexual harrassment from a co-worker and did not know how to deal with it. i tried to be "nice"...i.e., "could you please stop" - etc. Finally, later, my husband to be ...took it into his hands...and it ended. But what i have learned over time, and in dealing with others who do not have nice/proper boundaries themselves...is...#1 .i have a right to speak up loudly when someone oversteps the bounds and tell them what they are doing is wrong; and #2, figure out a way to have the ball be in my court -- i had to learn from a rude neighbor that always took advantage of me.....i learned to tell her i had to call her back; and that gave me time to think about what i needed to say; and in the process of call her back, i was in the driver's seat. (today i'd just slap the rude person who harrassed me!)

[Streak]

Cazzie,

You and your daughter have my sympathies and I'm rooting for both of you. I was harrassed and bullied from age 9 pretty much through my sophomore year in high school; relentless bullying that in many ways, destroyed my life as a child/adolescent. It still haunts me now and probably will for the rest of my life. Give yourself credit for doing everything right so far; your support makes a big difference. You're doing her a huge favor by letting her know you're on her side, without losing control and getting obnoxious or belligerent about it with other parents/kids/coaches.

Having said that, I agree with miraclegro that sometimes it's necessary to be really assertive. In my case, there were a few times I can remember "defeating" a bully, and it always happened when I finally got angry enough to not care about discretion, or keeping peace, or whatever. I mean, totally furious, sick and tired of the crap...I'd finally had it. The time I remember most clearly was, when the bully came around one day doing the usual routine, I turned to her and yelled, at the top of my lungs, "STOP SPREADING LIES ABOUT ME!" in her face, military style. My expression must have been pretty scary, but the shocked silence was priceless...

I'm pretty sure the reason it worked was because she saw that I was angry enough to start throwing punches if she didn't back off (not that I'm advocating that), and that I had zero qualms about making a HUGE emarrassing ruckus unless and until she backed off. Essentially, I snapped, but that particular bully wasn't an issue again.

I don't know your dd's circumstances, so take this for what it's worth, but do you think maybe it might actually be good for her to make a big scene? It might make it clear to the bully (and everyone) that she's had enough and she won't be anybody's verbal punching bag. Shoot, maybe if she goes a little ballistic it will get the authority figures to see that something is VERY wrong and take the bullying seriously. I would echo the suggestion to have another sit-down with the teachers and coaches. Explain what is going on and let them know that things are getting worse, your kid is really suffering, and this is crushing her spirit. She should not have to deal with that abuse all by herself. If it keeps up, it's almost a given that she WILL go off on the other girl, but as someone else mentioned, at least if she does, it will be documented with the school and her coach that your daughter's been putting up with ongoing bullying and emotional abuse.

In any case, I wish both of you all the best and I hope this is resolved soon.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I agree with many of the posts and advice above. I'm just going to emphasize something.

It's all well and good to speak with her coaches and teachers. I believe that's something that needs to be done. But at some point your daughter needs to learn how to stick up for herself, or she will be walked over for many more years. While it is important to teach her to be polite and encourage her to treat people well, there's a point where that ends.

Tell her it is okay to stand up for herself, even loudly if she has to. Let her know how to do it as well - not to be flat out rude or whiny, but clearly state the problem and assert that it must stop.

If she is uncomfortable doing so, practice with her. Imagine different things the other girl might say, prepare responses with her, and have her practice saying them to you as should would to the other girl.

It is wonderful that you are such a concerned parent and want to help her out. But you can only do so much, and if she doesn't learn to do it herself it will only hurt her in the end.

[Isk8NYC]

I would suggest that getting loud is better than getting physical. Just mho as a loud person...

[wasamb]

My heart goes out to you and your daughter. One of my kids was bullied for many years as well. One suggestion we had was that instead of trying to just confront or cope with the bully, instead find ways to avoid being the victim. Humour, while difficult, can really diffuse a situation. She could practice scenarios. I'm no expert, but maybe in the swimming pool example she could laugh and say "yeah, and Hannah Montana was the life guard". A more generic example would be something like if a girl is criticized for having hairy legs, she could say "what did you expect, grass?" Makes the other person seem silly for saying anything. Like I said, I'm no expert though.

[cazzie]

Well - she seems much calmer this week and has had longer to think about things. She was rationalising that the fan club of the girl who has made her life so miserable are people who she has never been keen on anyway. She is realising that although every new rumour causes a bit of a scandal, most of the kids don't believe it.

She's been given no choice about moving up a skating group - we'll have to see how it goes. She has decided she'll be putting her head down and really focussing on her skating.

She did some stretching in her room this evening saying she is now setting her own goals - largely focussed around spin variations - inspired by the olympics - but also she has decided to really work on box splits. (She's fine with the forwards-backwards ones but nowhere near box splits).

She's feeling happier now that she is focussing on goals. I may ask her to write them down (I won't look - she can show her coach or keep them private) just to keep her feeling positive if the going gets rough.

[doubletoe]

For what it's worth, there is always a "mean girl" in every group at age 11-12. I don't know why that is, but it just seems to always be the case. When I was that age, the mean girl in our class decided to make me the brunt of her jokes and it made my life pretty miserable. I tried asking her sincerely why she didn't like me and asking her to stop it, but it had no effect whatsoever. Eventually, I realized that she was completely untrustworthy and I never again gave her the time of day, even when she insisted that she was really being sincere. Completely ignoring her is the only thing that worked. I mean, not even acknowledging her existence when she said something to me. Your daughter sounds like a nice girl, so this will be very uncomfortable for her, but it will be empowering.

By the way, once she moved away, everyone in the class started confessing, one by one, that they never really liked her! They were just intimidated by her and went along.

[cazzie]

Agree with you (doubletoe).

Think my daughter is finding that hard. In new group now and yes - coached together again. She's trying very hard to be tough and is definately having a bit of a wobble. Its hard following the "mean girl" a month later when her relationships with the others are already established.

Spent about 15 minutes chatting tonight trying to remind her of her motivation and goals from a few days ago and how letting this girl get to her is letting her "win at bullying". (Also stressed my goals for her which were about having fun and feeling good about herself).

She fell and fell and fell tonight on her doubles but was told by the coach that her technique looked good other than flinging herself into them just a bit too hard - that made her feel a bit better.

[doubletoe]

Yes, it's always hard being the newcomer. Bringing cookies for everyone (and being totally casual about it, of course) has been known to make a girl a little more popular. ;)

[fsk8r]

Agree with you (doubletoe).

Think my daughter is finding that hard. In new group now and yes - coached together again. She's trying very hard to be tough and is definately having a bit of a wobble. Its hard following the "mean girl" a month later when her relationships with the others are already established.

Spent about 15 minutes chatting tonight trying to remind her of her motivation and goals from a few days ago and how letting this girl get to her is letting her "win at bullying". (Also stressed my goals for her which were about having fun and feeling good about herself).

She fell and fell and fell tonight on her doubles but was told by the coach that her technique looked good other than flinging herself into them just a bit too hard - that made her feel a bit better.

This talk of mean girls reminds me of that film. Has she seen it? Maybe that might help her relate to what is going on and see others coping with the behaviour.

Hopefully the coach can also help her stay positive about her skating. It sounds like the coach has the right approach in telling her that technique is good but she's trying too hard. It will help her stay positive about her skating if she's got that reenforcement coming from outside to counteract any negativity from this girl.