Double axel...?

[Pandora]

Yes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum3u3PuGF8 (2axel attempts at 4:12)

Know what you mean. This jump is nasty! :(
Can cheat it and stand up or power it around and fall on my #&$. Personally, I think 3sal is much easier. How are you doing on it? Are you trying 3sal or toe?

[Pandora]

Yup. I tried them. But there's a reason you don't see them on the video.Totally impressed that you are working on them. :) Also, 3 toe is ....difficult. But I'm working on it. Have landed a few with 3 turns. :roll:

Flip is not soild enough yet to even think about it.

I don't lutz (ex roller skater. Lutz is really hard for me on ice.) Don't compete so this is not an issue.

Do you do your loop off the glide or a three turn set up?

Do you do your sal off the mohawk (like me) or off the 3 turn?

I do my toe off an inside 3 turn. Most people do outside 3 and step down. I tried to do this but can't get the timing right. Have always used inside 3 so keeping it for the triple attempt, but think it might be part of my problem.

[Pandora]

(Laughing). Take a look at the ON ICE section of this forum for the answer to that question. I am pretty much universally hated.

Here's the short version. I am 40 years old. I am an ex roller skater. Still in good shape. I skated as a teen so I know how to jump and am not afraid to fall. (Unlike most adults.) However....Because I skated on wheels your ice edges are difficult for me. I can do them, but not well enough to pass MITF tests. (Both sides etc.) This is why I don't do 2lutz. No place on ice for me to compete. Can't start at the beginning against adults who are true beginners. Can't walk in and skate at masters level without taking the tests. Can't pass MITF for all those tests. Don't want to waste several years trying to crawl up the test structure to use my jumps. Would rather spend those years trying to land a triple. (YOU can probably understand this. Of course, this attitude drives other adults.....NUTS!!:twisted:) Roller has no tests. You sign up for what you believe to be your level (at least until sophomore), after that you must place at regionals to earn junior/senior. Anyways tried to have new adult event without test restrictions...an "open" event. They turned me down because I could only find a few skaters willing to back me. The others just lecutured me on how I need to "grow up" and work on MITF. Called me lazy and other nasty names. Check out some of the threads to see what they did. It wasn't nice. :cry:

Anyways....
Guess I have been talking to the wrong people (read that: Adults.) You are younger, aren't you. (Teens?) If you are working on these jumps, I'll bet you are. ;) Actually, the kids give me a certain amount of respect because I can still jump like them. The adults, on the other hand....:roll:

[Skittl1321]

Do you have a video of you doing a toe-loop off an inside 3? I'm having a hard time picturing how that would work.

[Pandora]

Yup. It is at 2:22. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum3u3PuGF8 The turn is RIF-ROB 3. Not too many skaters do it this way. Oksana Baieul (sp?) did her triple off the traveling 3's so she did it like this. But not many use this enterence. It is more a roller enterence.

[Pandora]

Yes, Tara did it, but she was very young when she crossed over (8 or so, I believe.)

Even our best usually don't cross over even though ice has so many more opportunities. Jayson tried. He is a world champion on roller (both quad and inlines.) This is his 3flip ON INLINES. It's a beauty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhDVKzapULA

He worte an autobiography. In it, he mentions switching to ice for about a year. He could do all his triple jumps and could manage the spins....but the MITF and the tests stopped him. He realized he would never be competitive at an elite level on ice. So he came back to roller (inlines). It wasn't the jumps. It was the edges.

[Skittl1321]

Yup. It is at 2:22. http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=30238 The turn is RIF-ROB 3. Not too many skaters do it this way. Oksana Baieul (sp?) did her triple off the traveling 3's so she did it like this. But not many use this enterence. It is more a roller enterence.

Sorry, but this link is to a thread. Could you try again?

So it sounds like you are doing the jump off a RBO-3, not the RFI (because it's not the thing that comes last). So now i'm even more confused- my confusion with the RFI3 was that you wouldn't get the pivot needed to take off on a toe-loop, but with an RBO-3 you'll be facing forward to start the jump, not backwards. And while there is always some prerotation, shouldn't the jump take off backwards?

[Pandora]

Oops, sorry. (Will fix that above.) Here is link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sum3u3PuGF8 It is at 2:22. Also at 2:51 (first jump of combo.)

Um...We all know the MITF is not my speciality, but the 3 turn is named by the first edge, right? Then the turn would be RIF edge to ROB edge. Left leg is swinging back as I am turning. I takeoff as soon as the turn ends. Toe strikes into ice right after ROB edge is achieved. So this would be an inside 3 turn, right? At least it would be on roller. (I think it is the same on ice.) :)

Oh btw, here is Oksana Baiul's traveling 3s into 3toe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to6XnH0PbeI (At 2:00 and in slow motion at 5:06)

[Skittl1321]

Ah, the explanation of the turn makes sense (haven't checked the video yet) I thought you were saying you did a right forward inside 3 turn then a right back outside 3-turn (essentially a double 3), since you then references consecutive 3s of another skater.

Hmmm- now I'm confused. The jump you do at 2:22 looks like every toe loop I've seen. I think that's the normal 3-turn to use. Maybe I have the edges all confused again! (3-turn names confuse me, and transfering to CCW confuses me more.)

[Pandora]

Well....
Not sure about the singles...but most of the elite skaters (on TV) and the kids at the rink who do the doubles seem to do an outer forward 3 (LOF-LIB for CCW). So they are now backwards on LIB. Then they step down onto the other foot (right for CCW) while still going backwards. Lift the foot (left for CCW) in front and strike back for the toe loop. Here is an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnfVmI0Dlc

This is slightly different than mine. I do a three turn directly into the jump. She 3 turns on the other side then steps down before the jump.
Here is one like mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RgRSGYlF3k

Do you see it?

Was suprised to see so many doubles like mine on youtube. Most of the triples, however, seem to use the first method. Wonder if it is easier for the triple?
Kwan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-oi4lu0qbc (At .24)
Yagudin: (Quad) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lgb7RlKT0
Don't know Who He Is but it's the first method with the step down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFKQJwM9cKQ

[slusher]

Well....
Not sure about the singles...but most of the elite skaters (on TV) and the kids at the rink who do the doubles seem to do an outer forward 3 (LOF-LIB for CCW). So they are now backwards on LIB. Then they step down onto the other foot (right for CCW) while still going backwards.

snip


Fyi, we usually write LFI/RFI as in how exactly you'd say it "left forward inside" because it's the natural progression, step on your left foot, go forward, now do an inside edge. Anyways,


There's all kinds of ways to do toe loops, just gliding back out of crosscuts even, but the first way taught is the forward inside 3 turn, stick the pick of the other foot in and jump. (I always write with gender neutral, for both lefties and righties)

Once kids start doubles, somewhere in there they will be switched to the Outside three turn/step/pick entrance. This is what you see the elites do. The reasoning behind it is that the step provides a moment of balance and recovery in case the three turn is wild, it's a preparation moment, and the skater can reach back further and get a bigger draw for larger jumps. The timing is different: three turn, step, wait, pick. It's in nanoseconds but the wait can be a little longer or shorter, whereas going into it directly from an inside three turn gives no time, it's turn, wham, thank you, done.

(discussion might ensue that it's a toe walley. It's not as the step is a flat pretty much)

[Isk8NYC]

What's ironic is that the Toe Loop LFO3/step to other foot entrance is similar to the entrance that used to be standard for the Loop Jump.

I'm not sure if the variety of entrances being used today are entirely to gain control. I think sometimes coaches/choreographers/skaters use a "different" entrance in anticipation of gaining a "more difficult" entrance, thereby gaining points. (Not that a LFO3 is "difficult" per se, but if a series of double threes were to precede that step down, it might be.)

Just MHO.

Back on the double axel: there's debate about "clean edge" vs. "skidding" on all of the axel jumps, from single to triple.
None of the elites are really doing that "jump into the circle" technique anymore, are they? (I haven't noticed it in the ISU GP competitions) A deep entry edge on the axel entry definitely causes prerotation and makes controlling the landing more difficult.

[ibreakhearts66]

I can do 2toe from both the LFO step entrance and from the RFI 3. For a while I was mainly doing LFO 3 but have gone back to RFI 3. I do a short mohawk step before hand (jump coach had me do it) and I like it because it really helps my rhythm. I do RFI mohawk, cross in front to RBI edge, step forward to a LFI edge (but a pretty flat one) then step into the RFI 3. When I work on triples, that's usually the entrance I'll use, but I do sometimes use the LFO 3 entrance--mostly depends on my mood.

I'm also working on 2axel and am excruciatingly close. I'm nearly fully rotated and on the right foot, but don't have it just yet. My air position isn't quite tight enough. I'm TRYING to close the air position, but it's really hard for me to get ankle contact.

Also working on 3sal but I've developed a very odd habit of pulling my arms in before I even take off. Considering how much rotation I get essentially not using my arms, the 3sal should come pretty quickly once I actually use them for lift lol.

The 2axel sure is a frustrating jump for me. Jumps have always come very naturally to me so it's just, well, frustrating to have to work so hard on the 2axel. What can I say, I've been spoiled!

[Isk8NYC]

IBH: Try practicing some delayed single axels. That's where you reach the jump's pinnacle before you get into the backspin position for the rotation on the way down.

A lot of the difficulty with the double axle comes from the skater rushing to snap into the backspin position on the way up.

Practicing a delayed axel will change your timing a bit and help you get more height. You'll "feel" the jump more than just racing to put the arms/legs/feet/brain in gear, lol.

For in-air tightness, think of covering one knee with the other. Try it on a back glide and you'll see what I mean.