Brian Boitano on judging

[Query]

On a recent im McCarver show, Brian Boitano talks about judging in figure skating. He said it is in large part political, the result of deal making between judges. He says that will never end, so he obviously doesn't think the newest judging system has fixed it.

Brian also says judges should have competed or coached competitively.

It might be interesting to have sports casters rate the skaters too - though I don't see much evidence that the U.S. broadcasters (who I see) try to be particularly unbiased, certainly not on a national basis, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same was true in other countries. It might also be interesting if the sportscasters would mention when they thought the judges were wrong. (Then again - could they? They were all skaters, not judges. Brian said he would never want to judge.)

I'm not seeking to start a flame war here on who should or should not have won, who is biased, etc.

I'm looking more for a calm discussion of the judging of a subjective sport like figure skating could be made more objective and fair.

[doubletoe]

In order for any competition to be judged fairly, the elements being judged must be objectively measurable and the judging system must be transparent and accountable. IJS does a much better job of this than 6.0 did, at least as far as the technical portion of the score. The elements have very specific definitions and values and the technical panel is usually pretty consistent at either making strict calls on all of the skaters or lenient calls on all of the skaters in any given competition. Even the GOE instructions (for the judges to add to/subtract from the base element scores) are pretty specific. However, they aren't as scrutinized as the element calls themselves and they are more prone to the judges' personal bias.

Unfortunately, half of the score under IJS is still scored pretty much the same as 6.0, which is just the judges' overall impression of each skater's performance. The 5 separate components scores help make this new "2nd mark" a little more transparent/accountable, but not that much.

The problem is that figure skating is not just a sport, it's also an art. The technical score works pretty well for judging the sport aspect, but how do you judge art, if not just by personal preference and your own *perception* of what constitutes "quality"? This is why we will probably never have a judging system that everyone thinks is fair and we will never have results that everyone agrees with.

Sportscasters should be free to say whatever they want when commenting on a sports event, since their job is to create excitement and get people to watch. They should never be mistaken for judges, though, especially the ones we have now, who seem to know very little about the current judging system!

[sk8rdad59]

In the Canadian system you are now required to have a skating background to become a judge, at least 1 Sr. Bronze test or 2 Jr. Bronze tests.

With all due respect to Brian Boitano I'm not sure that his perspective on the current state of judging is somewhat suspect since he has had little involvment in the competitive skating world in recent years. While there is still likely some backroom dealing that occurs the IJS system of judging has taken steps in the right direction to eliminated the effect that deals can have on the results.

The USFSA was rather slow to adopt the IJS system and as a result the US sportscasters are a bit behind the curve on understanding the system. There are also a number of them that IMO are generally opposed to the system and as a result do not make the effort to impart understanding of it to their viewers.

I have said before that the broadcasters both in the US and Canada would be well served to run some segments that show why elements are marked the way they are, show a well executed vs poorly executed jump and explain the deductions. Maybe indicate what the skaters PB is and what the will likely need for a medal placement. I have seen a bit more of this recently and I think only by providing some accessible education on the system will the casual fans be drawn back to the sport.

[Schmeck]

Goodness, half the commentators here in the US are either clueless about skating, or have very little knowledge about IJS. Listening to Nancy Kerrigan trying to call synchro events is PAINFUL! She's a wonderful skater, wonderful mom (I've run into her before, she's warm, friendly, and absolutely beautiful) but she had a hard time doing the synchro broadcasts.

Don't forget Dick Button either - he miscalled jumps even before his horrible accident. No, I don't want commentators to try to be judges. I want the news media to point out problems in the judging after they have done some research!

[Query]

Isn't it amazing how popular skating is as a spectator sport (in terms of television ratings), yet how incomprehensible the rules are to most of the watchers?

What does that say about what people get out of watching it?

People like BB may indeed have suspect knowledge of IJS, but when he guesses whose performance will be rated well, he general gets it right. And he at least knows something about performing the moves.

I've noticed that even the best skaters I know haven't got a clue about how their skating is rated. Nor can they agree on how to interpret most of the rules in the U.S. rulebook. The system is too complicated.

OK. The truly subjective component can probably never be quantified. And when I've heard Russian vs U.S. origin skaters and coaches talk about what is good skating, good body position, etc., they are so different it is obvious they will never agree.

But wouldn't it be wonderful if there were it should be possible for there to exist clear written rules on the semi-objective part that everyone - skaters, coaches, judges, audience - can read and understand?

[doubletoe]

In the Canadian system you are now required to have a skating background to become a judge, at least 1 Sr. Bronze test or 2 Jr. Bronze tests.

With all due respect to Brian Boitano I'm not sure that his perspective on the current state of judging is somewhat suspect since he has had little involvment in the competitive skating world in recent years. While there is still likely some backroom dealing that occurs the IJS system of judging has taken steps in the right direction to eliminated the effect that deals can have on the results.

The USFSA was rather slow to adopt the IJS system and as a result the US sportscasters are a bit behind the curve on understanding the system. There are also a number of them that IMO are generally opposed to the system and as a result do not make the effort to impart understanding of it to their viewers.

I have said before that the broadcasters both in the US and Canada would be well served to run some segments that show why elements are marked the way they are, show a well executed vs poorly executed jump and explain the deductions. Maybe indicate what the skaters PB is and what the will likely need for a medal placement. I have seen a bit more of this recently and I think only by providing some accessible education on the system will the casual fans be drawn back to the sport.

ITA. The U.S. figure skating commentators all had their greatest successes under 6.0, so what else would you expect? Not to mention, some of them (Scott Hamilton, for example), are involved in ice shows and would benefit more from people waxing nostalgic for the good old days of 6.0 style skating, which is generally what you will see in the ice shows.


But wouldn't it be wonderful if there were it should be possible for there to exist clear written rules on the semi-objective part that everyone - skaters, coaches, judges, audience - can read and understand?

There are clearly written rules. They are right here:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=934
and here:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1427

That's pretty much all you need, and if you don't find your answer there, all you have to do is go to www.ISU.org, click on the "ISU Communications" link and then type in search terms for the rules you are looking for. These documents are a lot easier to understand than high school geometry or algebra and WAY easier than doing your taxes, all of which are things most of us have survived just fine. ;)

[Query]

There are clearly written rules. They are right here...

Thanks for the links. I hadn't seen these before, and they do clarify many things, at least at the international level.

There are still lots of ambiguous words like "poor position", "serious difficulty", "long preparation", "good height and distance", etc.

It doesn't say what people should do, in terms of the sequence of motions (e.g., which edges, what body motions, of rotations, etc.). To make skating a better spectator sport, it should be much easier for the audience to understand what is being done.

And yet it does have a big TV audience, despite that many people in the audience don't understand what they are looking at. It's much easier to figure out how people get points in baseball, soccer, basketball, volleyball, ping pong, etc., or what constitutes a better performance in track and field.

I think it is all those lovely minimally clad graceful ladies, and perhaps their male counterparts. Or maybe the female half of the population can imagine themselves skating more easily than they can playing soccer or [American] football. If ballet or Salsa was an Olympic sport, they might be more popular.

To really make it a good spectator sport, only the obvious things should count. Minor things like inside vs outside edge of take-off and landing, the audience can barely see. If one is easier than the other, then it is more ergonomic, and therefore should be the preferred motion, or a matter of skater choice. Or be viewed as another legitimate move.

Perhaps the audience should rate everything (or everything non-technical?) - except we've gotten into this silly mode where folks worry about what country a person officially represents, rather than appreciating their skills as an athlete, or how interesting their routine is. ("Officially", cuz a lot of the people who train here in the U.S. are officially skating or playing for another country. A lot of nominally foreign coaches live here too. Great for us in the U.S., who can easily take lessons from some of the best, in many sports, but it makes the distinction that much more pointless.

BTW, I love ice shows. They do at least one fewer rotation than the ISU and top level national competitions, and fewer jumps/minute. But they make a lot fewer obvious mistakes, and there is a lot more artistry, in terms of interesting and fun choreography, costumes and props. The routines often go on for longer too. To me, that's real skating - a true form of The Dance.

[sk8rdad59]

The USFSA had a link http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=311 that collects up all the pertinent documentation. Yes they are complicated but so is the sport. Every sport that Query listed is a sport based on score there is no judging per-se there are referees to enforce fair play rules. Of those sports I would suspect that very few people know ALL the rules. Baseball for example has 11 chapters of rules, far more than the scoring rules for Figure Skating. Figure Skating is more like Gymnastics, Diving, Ski Jumping or Snowboarding than Baseball or Football.

As to only obvious things counting, what is not obvious to the casual observer can be very obvious to the trained observer. Coaches can tell you at a glance if a skater took off from the wrong edge or under rotated a jump.

It is encumbant on the broadcasters to explain the sport, imagine a football game with no explaination of why a penalty is called the offending team would simply lose ground and we would all be left wondering why. This is currently what is happening with skating broadcasts in the US in particular. In Canada this has improved somewhat although not to the extent I would like to see. At least the Canadian commentators understand the system quite well and in the case of Kurt Browning he also does Ice Shows so I feel the nostalgia thing would be a rather lame excuse for not understanding or explaining.

Remember Ice Shows are pure entertainment there is no judging, thus the participants a motivated entirely differently. A skating competition is an Athletic endeavour and is judged, do not equate the two, if you love ice shows and do like figure skating competition that go to Ice Shows don't expect a competition to become an Ice Show.