I don't get it! Why does the kid have m

[momof3chicks]

such a beautiful axel and struggle with making the double sal consistent? It looks like almost the same jump to me. But the double toe, she learns quickly! It isn't quite consistent yet, but better than the double sal.

[sk8rdad59]

such a beautiful axel and struggle with making the double sal consistent? It looks like almost the same jump to me. But the double toe, she learns quickly! It isn't quite consistent yet, but better than the double sal.

There not remotely the same. The axel take off is facing forward, as its the only jump that takes off forward it's easy to recognise. The salchow is an edge jump that takes off from the opposite leg from the landing leg and the toe loop you pick with the toe of your landing free leg. Axels typically come either easy to a skater or are their nemesis, also its half a rotation less than a double which usually translates to less rotational speed in the air. Learning to pull in tighter for the true doubles takes time and typically requires more arm strength.

The toe is considered the easiest of the jumps and often can be cheated a bit on the takeoff as a small portion of the rotation can be done on the ice turning it into what some call a toe axel. The salchow is harder to cheat in this way so requires better technique to accomplish.

I would suggest patience the as many factors affect jumping and jumps often come and go as skater learn to refine the technique on them.

[Isk8NYC]

They're all different jumps.

The Axel is only 1.5 revolutions, the Double Salchow is 2.0 revolutions. It's easier to cheat the Axel entrance by skidding or turning on the toe before takeoff, so some skaters aren't even doing the full 1.5 revs.

The Toe Loop/Double Toe Loop jumps are easier to master because the skater is vaulting off of a toe pick on the side that they're turning towards. There's less body movement and limbs to coordinate than on the Salchow.

The Salchow is a backwards one-footed edge takeoff that requires difficult synchronization and timing. The skater has to ride the backwards edge up to the toepick while bringing the free foot through and checking the upper body by using the arms/shoulders. As I tell my students, the salchow uses every body part. You can freeze various parts in the toe assist jumps and axel, but the salchow is like an elaborate folk dance, lol. It's more difficult to master (and to save, frankly) than the toe-assisted Toe Loop.

Just be patient.

[momof3chicks]

They're all different jumps.

The Axel is only 1.5 revolutions, the Double Salchow is 2.0 revolutions. It's easier to cheat the Axel entrance by skidding or turning on the toe before takeoff, so some skaters aren't even doing the full 1.5 revs.

The Toe Loop/Double Toe Loop jumps are easier to master because the skater is vaulting off of a toe pick on the side that they're turning towards. There's less body movement and limbs to coordinate than on the Salchow.

The Salchow is a backwards one-footed edge takeoff that requires difficult synchronization and timing. The skater has to ride the backwards edge up to the toepick while bringing the free foot through and checking the upper body by using the arms/shoulders. As I tell my students, the salchow uses every body part. You can freeze various parts in the toe assist jumps and axel, but the salchow is like an elaborate folk dance, lol. It's more difficult to master (and to save, frankly) than the toe-assisted Toe Loop.

Just be patient.

Thanks for the explanation! She definitely doesn't cheat any of them, but on the salchow seems to have trouble with the glide, she gets around, and lands it, but instead of gliding, kind of crumples! She is doing well, I was just kind of curious

[sk8rdad59]

Thanks for the explanation! She definitely doesn't cheat any of them, but on the salchow seems to have trouble with the glide, she gets around, and lands it, but instead of gliding, kind of crumples! She is doing well, I was just kind of curious

That sounds pretty typical of landings when learning the jumps. Core strength can also be an issue when learning to land doubles and higher jumps, as you need strong core (stomach) muscles to properly check the rotation.

[sk8tmum]

Just to really mess with your mind: my kid has a huge and beautiful double axel, but, still screws up the 2 salchow; for whatever reason, the axel is easier, now, (see below) than any other jump for this particular skater.

No, the coach does NOT teach a 2A before the other doubles are consistent, (and they are there, except for the 2-lutz, just not as good or as consistent) - the 2A was "on a bet" and, once landed ... there you go. Every kid has quirks ... and is unique, and will learn jumps and lose them many times. I've got the grey hair to prove it.

We gained and lost that axel multiple times over 4 years, and as a result of all the drill in getting it back, it's extremely well executed (can do a delayed axel on a good day :))

[sk8tmum]

They're all different jumps.

The Axel is only 1.5 revolutions, the Double Salchow is 2.0 revolutions. It's easier to cheat the Axel entrance by skidding or turning on the toe before takeoff, so some skaters aren't even doing the full 1.5 revs.

The Toe Loop/Double Toe Loop jumps are easier to master because the skater is vaulting off of a toe pick on the side that they're turning towards. There's less body movement and limbs to coordinate than on the Salchow.

The Salchow is a backwards one-footed edge takeoff that requires difficult synchronization and timing. The skater has to ride the backwards edge up to the toepick while bringing the free foot through and checking the upper body by using the arms/shoulders. As I tell my students, the salchow uses every body part. You can freeze various parts in the toe assist jumps and axel, but the salchow is like an elaborate folk dance, lol. It's more difficult to master (and to save, frankly) than the toe-assisted Toe Loop.

Just be patient.

And, on the subject of quirks: my other kid has better edge jumps, and is far closer on a good solid 2S than on the toe jumps! We won't even discuss the debacle that is the 2T 8O except to say that it induces shuddering in all of us!

[sk8rdad59]

Just to really mess with your mind: my kid has a huge and beautiful double axel, but, still screws up the 2 salchow; for whatever reason, the axel is easier, now, (see below) than any other jump for this particular skater.

No, the coach does NOT teach a 2A before the other doubles are consistent, (and they are there, except for the 2-lutz, just not as good or as consistent) - the 2A was "on a bet" and, once landed ... there you go. Every kid has quirks ... and is unique, and will learn jumps and lose them many times. I've got the grey hair to prove it.

We gained and lost that axel multiple times over 4 years, and as a result of all the drill in getting it back, it's extremely well executed (can do a delayed axel on a good day :))


Yes mine too has a gorgeous 2A+2Lo combo but I still cringe every time a solo 2T is executed! It is simple not a pretty jump. Edge jumps are slightly stronger than toe jumps. You can usually expect the singles to have problems as the doubles get closer (triples similarly affect the doubles) as the skater needs to learn the correct amount of pull in for each amount of rotation. Watching daily can drive a parent crazy.

[momof3chicks]

That sounds pretty typical of landings when learning the jumps. Core strength can also be an issue when learning to land doubles and higher jumps, as you need strong core (stomach) muscles to properly check the rotation.

Ah!! She has been taking more off ice classes since our coach change and I think that will help!

[momof3chicks]

And, on the subject of quirks: my other kid has better edge jumps, and is far closer on a good solid 2S than on the toe jumps! We won't even discuss the debacle that is the 2T 8O except to say that it induces shuddering in all of us!

LOL, that is what some of the other kids in her rink who already skate juvie or intermediate say, they cannot do the 2toe and the pre prelim 9 yo can.

[sk8tmum]

You just have to watch for (insert theme from movie Jaws here) ... the dreaded TOE AXEL - which, once they get in the habit of doing, can make it a challenge to change to a proper 2T!!!! :roll:

I've given up a long time ago on angsting on jumps. We'll go through a months-long (year long!) dry spell with no apparent progression, or with backwards progression as jumps "vanish", and then suddenly in a period of just a couple of weeks, the jumps (and spins, and all of the other stuff) suddenly reappear magically! Each vanishing and subsequent reappearance has always resulted in stronger and better jumps, as it's often been a factor of the coach going back and refining technique ... and of course puberty and growth spurts in there too, or an injury finally heals so work can resume, or simply a brain neuron starts firing thats been dormant for a while. I just let the coach do her own thing, and stay out of it ... and do the rah-rah mommy cheering section. I figure if I'm paying a National Level coach, then, you know, I should just stay out of the way and let her do her thing, and if there isn't enough progression, I'll get asked to do stuff if I'm needed on some front. If she's comfortable with the progress ... then, fine.

And yes, the doubles do mess with the mind on the singles, and the double can mess up the axel (and vice versa) as the different amounts of "rotations", particuarly with young minds, are hard to keep in muscle memory and in simple feeling of the jumps.

[Mrs Redboots]

My coach says that some skaters "get" the axel before the double salchow, others get it the other way round, it depends on the skater. Some are simply not comfortable with the forwards take-off required for an axel (or a 3-jump, for that matter, but that's not a listed jump now). He teaches both simultaneously, as, although they are different jumps, apparently they do feed off each other in terms of technique.

[RachelSk8er]

Just to really mess with your mind: my kid has a huge and beautiful double axel, but, still screws up the 2 salchow; for whatever reason, the axel is easier, now, (see below) than any other jump for this particular skater.

No, the coach does NOT teach a 2A before the other doubles are consistent, (and they are there, except for the 2-lutz, just not as good or as consistent) - the 2A was "on a bet" and, once landed ... there you go. Every kid has quirks ... and is unique, and will learn jumps and lose them many times. I've got the grey hair to prove it.

We gained and lost that axel multiple times over 4 years, and as a result of all the drill in getting it back, it's extremely well executed (can do a delayed axel on a good day :))

When I was 12, the first double I came close to (before my parents made me choose between freestyle or synchro) was a 2flip. I think it was because flips have always been easy jumps for me to launch in the air. When I was younger I hated edge jumps, and toe loops felt awkward.

Now that I'm doing freestyle again and working on my stupid axel (which took me an hour session to land as a kid and has taken me a year on and off to get back as an adult :frus:), I'll probably have a 2toe either at the same time, if not before the axel. I was starting to try 2sals before I was sidelined d/t injury, and have yet to attempt a 2flip. I still feel like it could be my first double, but there is no point in even really trying until I have at least a 2toe because of the jump limits in the adult competition level structure (can't do a 2flip until junior/senior). And really a 2toe does me no good since I can't move up without my axel clean.

I wish they'd change the rule to the number of types of doubles you can do instead of the specific jumps at each level (and just not allow 2axels until junior/senior). I know a few other adults who are closer on 2loops/flips than 2toes/sals, too.

[sk8tmum]

I think it's also very much a measure of the quality of the single jump. The Salchow, toe and loop were taught by "former" coach who is former for a good reason. The flip, lutz and axel were taught by current coach, and have always been technically excellent, whereas the first three had to be relearned and are still not as technically accurate, as they had to be "unlearned". Becuase the latter ones have been taught by the same coach on the same continuum, I can see it logically being easier to progress, you know?

[cazzie]

Over the last week my dd has lost her axel and all her doubles... but - prior to that had consistent axel, double Sal, landed 50% of double loop and some double flips - but - only landed 2 double toe loops in her whole life. Double toe fills her with dread and she'd happily swop her double sal for a double toe....! (She gets so cross when everybody tells her its the easiest of doubles as she's convinced it isn't). No accounting for it all - is there?

As for losing the jumps - what a performance. Getting crosser and crosser with herself and apparantly doing wild over-rotation on everything and continuously landing on her rear end. Coach says she is virtually doing double axels (would be considered slightly cheated double axels) and landing over and over on her behind.

Sometimes wish she would just stick to dance.

[momof3chicks]

I think it's also very much a measure of the quality of the single jump. The Salchow, toe and loop were taught by "former" coach who is former for a good reason. The flip, lutz and axel were taught by current coach, and have always been technically excellent, whereas the first three had to be relearned and are still not as technically accurate, as they had to be "unlearned". Becuase the latter ones have been taught by the same coach on the same continuum, I can see it logically being easier to progress, you know?

This makes sense, she is actually starting 2flip as well and is as close to it as the 2toe and looks easier for her than the salchow. It is true that the sal was always a nemesis for her, even single while her flip has always been really good.

[Schmeck]

Thanks for the explanation! She definitely doesn't cheat any of them, but on the salchow seems to have trouble with the glide, she gets around, and lands it, but instead of gliding, kind of crumples! She is doing well, I was just kind of curious


But in your first post you say the axel and 2sal look the same, which to me, sounds like she's cheating one or the other - they should not look alike. As PPs have already noted, the sal takes off on a back inside edge(left foot if she's a CC skater) and the axel is a forward outside edge (left foot for CC skater) so she's got something wonky going on if they really are identical. Give her time, the coach will see what she's doing that's off, and tweak it.

[twokidsskatemom]

But in your first post you say the axel and 2sal look the same, which to me, sounds like she's cheating one or the other - they should not look alike. As PPs have already noted, the sal takes off on a back inside edge(left foot if she's a CC skater) and the axel is a forward outside edge (left foot for CC skater) so she's got something wonky going on if they really are identical. Give her time, the coach will see what she's doing that's off, and tweak it.

I agree.They dont look anything alike!
Please dont take this the wrong way, but the OP seems to be caught up in the whole my kid landed a fill in the blank.You cant rush jumps, they come and go at the drop of a hat and this isnt a race.
It took my dd awhile to get her axle, then a while more to get a GREAT one!The same with double sal.A huge difference between when she started and now but it didnt happen overnight.Her double toe was atoe axle, but now seems to be a real double toe.
My point is this is a life long process.Just go along for the ride and dont worry too much about what jumps she has and how they look at age 9.

[momof3chicks]

But in your first post you say the axel and 2sal look the same, which to me, sounds like she's cheating one or the other - they should not look alike. As PPs have already noted, the sal takes off on a back inside edge(left foot if she's a CC skater) and the axel is a forward outside edge (left foot for CC skater) so she's got something wonky going on if they really are identical. Give her time, the coach will see what she's doing that's off, and tweak it.

LOL, only to ME! They apparently were not the same, and no sooner did I post this, than the 2Sal was back- LOL