View Full Version : Sarah's Program
Toepoint
10-09-2002, 10:17 PM
I love Sarah Hughes, she is one of my favorites. I just do not like her new LP. Does anybody remember Robin talking after the Olympics about how this is a time where she and Sarah can experiment with some new programs? Was that the experiment? I think that is the worst program I have ever seen Sarah do. I know its early in the season, but I have loved or at least liked every program Sarah has done, this one seems thrown together. YUCK:(
Uhm, can you give the girl a chance? This program was less than 2 weeks old. Every performance starts out rough.
I for one liked the LP I saw at Campbells. Well, I liked the potential.
I am not sure if anyone else noticed, but IMO, Sarah seemed really relaxed and not as gawky as before. I can't wait until later in the year to see what comes of this program. :D
somechick
10-09-2002, 11:11 PM
I have noticed that this was a love it or hate it program and I for one LOVED IT!! I thought this was the absolute best long program that Sarah has ever had. Yes, it was very rough around the edges and unrefined, but I think it has amazing potential. It very much fits with the ballet, it has wonderful connecting steps, I love love love the combo spin at the end, especially the little hop in it...this is a program that is going to help Sarah transition from girl to woman on the ice....I definitely think she is going to have a different costume for this (I sure hope so, I really did not like that one, it was too dark and that neckline is not flattering on anyone!).
I am curious exactly what jumps will be in this program. I love the back spiral into the loop but that would negate one 3/3. I really would like to know how the 3A is going--if at all...I did notice a lot more height on her 2A than I have ever seen before....
Time and time again people underestimate Sarah and what she is capable of...I think this is a program that can win on its own merits....and that is saying a lot because I actually think all of the ladies had great programs thus far. I think a lot of competitions will come down to who can land the jumps, who can land the difficult jumps, and who is able to relax and just skate--and Sarah has shown time and again that she is capable of that....
duane
10-09-2002, 11:23 PM
i also like the new program. it really suits sarah, and as stated, once she is more comfortable skating to it and the rough edges are smoothed out, it'll receive the praise it deserves.
if not, well, i still like it. :)
I love assuming strategies which it turns out the skaters never bother with!
If I were Team Hughes my strategy would be the following: Cede Nationals gold to Sasha or Michelle and just work on making the team. Go instead for the World title. Create a long program similar to the one that won the Olympics- balletic in style and music with a lot of heavy duty jump content, based on the assumption that that's what the international judges favor.
It also makes sense in terms of Sarah's academic situation to think in terms of Worlds rather than Nationals- her now legendary SATs will long be over, her college applications out of the way, and she'll be knee deep in second semeter senior year- as frivolous a time as a serious student can have.
I was disappointed that her new long program wasn't "jazzy"- I always think that one real advantage Sarah has over many of the other top skaters is the length of her legs and a jazzy (Fosse program ) style stresses that advantage. Maybe her short program will have that flavor.
But if she wants the international judges to place her over Irina, Michelle, Fumi and Sasha, then she's probably right to stick with a balletic style long program.
AxelAnnie22
10-10-2002, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by rack
I was disappointed that her new long program wasn't "jazzy"- I always think that one real advantage Sarah has over many of the other top skaters is the length of her legs and a jazzy (Fosse program ) style stresses that advantage. Maybe her short program will have that flavor.
Hi Rack
I agree with you fer sur, fer sur. Of the top ladies, Sarah, IMO, is the weakest lyrical, balletic skater. She does not flow from one movement to the next, and appears - to me - to be akward musically. It always looks to me like she KNOWS what poses she is supposed to hit, but she doesn't really feel it. It is a DO, not a BE.
But if she wants the international judges to place her over Irina, Michelle, Fumi and Sasha, then she's probably right to stick with a balletic style long program.
All things being equal, I don't think she can beat these skaters musically or balletically. She can beat them on content, but not style.
RE Her Olympic long skate. That is one of the few times I have seen Sarah simply feel the music, (in a SP or LP) and skate. She was gorgeous out there. She has no shortfall (imo) interpreting FOSSE, and her Beatles Medely was great. I think Sarah needs music SHE understands. It will make a great difference in her skating.......at least to me, (and remember, it is always about ME LOL!) and I would hope to the judges.
I had a couple of more thoughts about Sarah's strategy (which again, I acknowledge, is probably more than she has ever had).
Sarah's skating career so far has taken place while she's been a student in the Great Neck school system, and while she's continued to live at home. Next year, if her life goes the way it's been planned, she'll be in college. She could go to a New York City school and continue to live at home, but she may well not. Sarah has certainly travelled, but seemingly always under the watchful eye of a parent, grandparent, or Robin Wagner, and the odds are none of them will sit next to her when she takes Introduction to Modern Philosophical Thought or Biology 101.
As far as I know, Sarah is the first Olympic champion to continue to skate competitively and go to school. I suspect the Hughes family is looking at what becomes of skaters who try to combine both, and may be concerned that a perfect balance is impossible to achieve. They may also believe that Sarah in college might have different goals than Sarah in high school.
In addition, the judging system is undergoing changes which make predicting the nature of skating far trickier for all competitors.
I think the Hughes Camp would like Sarah to have a world championship to go along with the Olympic gold, and are not assuming she will continue to compete at that level once college begins. So this is the year to shoot for it, and that probably means conservative, judge pleasing programs.
And finally (and perhaps most controversially), I think fans regard "really hearing the music" as a far more important aspect of skating than the judges do. It's a lovely excuse for favoring one skater over another, but I suspect the judges' agendas have considerably more to do with jumps and spins and difficulty of in-betweens (all of which can be judged subjectively, but defended more easily in post-competition discussions).
First Olympic champion in the post school figure era to continue competing and going to school.
Hmm..interesting. Who knows what their strategies are? It seems to be that if Sarah wants to be a doctors she really doesn't have the option of putting things off and doing school part time. I didn't think there was anything wrong with her lp, nothing ground breaking but if she skates cleanly and Sasha or Michelle or Irina (whoever the other top ladies are by the end fo the season) do not she certainly has a good chance at getting the World title. I cringe when Sarah skates because I hate her posture, my boyfriend sees nothing wrong with and it while he thought her program was boring thought she looked fine, so maybe the judges don't all care about her posture either. It has improved but it's still not in the league of SC, AP or MK or even AN, in particular I think she did not fair well skating right after Sasha, who has, as in uniformly acknowledged, lovely posture and the best in air position of the ladies.
Oh God, here we go again!!
There is NOTHING wrong with the girl's posture! Adjust your set!
It looks like a beautiful program. I watched it online, and I was floored. It looks like a continuation of the stuff we saw in "DQ" and "Vocalise" combined--Liveliness and smoothness together. I'm totally lovin' it! Works for me already even in its roughest stage.
RoseAugust
10-10-2002, 11:42 AM
I also like Sarah's new LP. On first viewing, I didn't care for it because it wasn't skated very well. However, on the second and third viewing I really warmed up to both the choreography and the music. In fact, compared to Sarah's LP, ALL of the other LP's that were skated at Campbell's seemed rather sparse. When this program is skated with all of the intended jumps and with the in-betweens hitting the right phrase of the music, it will be beautiful and present a challenge to her competitors.
Sorry CMc but her posture drives me nuts and yet I can't put a finger on it. I think it has to do with her shoulders and her knee bend. I know it must drive you nuts since you don't agree but I just can't get past it.
Tessa
10-10-2002, 01:32 PM
Wasn't Debi Thomas able to go to med school and skate competitively at the same time?
Yazmeen
10-10-2002, 02:58 PM
Debi was still in college when she went to the Olympics, I believe, and didn't go to med school until well after her Olympic Gold. She did take off a year before starting her Orthopedic surgery residency as I remember, to have a child. This allowance of time off does reflect a little of her "star" status as an Olympic skater. Ortho is the hardest residency, surgical or otherwise to actually get, and very few females try for and get it. I'm not saying she was given it because of her skating credentials--she obviously was a darn good student to score that residency.
As for Sarah I also am beginning to think she may make a run for a National title and World gold, and that's it, to concentrate on college and med school. There's also nothing wrong with that. Med school takes quite a committment--I know, I've been there!!! While they might allow her to put off coming after an acceptance, they won't allow her to put it off for long. Placements in med school are still too competitive for that.
I think one of the reasons there are gripes about Sarah's posture is just that she seems to tower over the other skaters--she's a few to several inches taller than most of her competitors and taller girls can tend to look gawkier (for lack of a better term) than their tiny competitors. I think her posture is just fine and I enjoy watching her skate. My only arguments with her skating are jump cheats and the bent knee on the spiral that she often exhibits. Otherwise, I think her form is just fine. I found her program at Campbell's to be flat and uninspiring in its present state; HOWEVER, it has potential, and Sarah can likely make it great. I have faith in her to do great things with it.
The interesting thing will be to see how well she handles the pressure of being the favorite. Many greats have buckled under it before her (Michelle, 97 Nationals, 02 Olympics; Tara, 98 Nationals; Todd, 98 Olympics; Thomas, 88 Olympics, etc.) Its one thing to chase, its another to BE chased. It will be an interesting season.
Dr. Beth
I like Sarah a lot but I agree that her posture takes away from her skating. Maybe it isn't her posture, but something about the way she looks on the ice doesn't look as elegant as MK, SC, AN or several other US ladies. It might just be the way she is built, but whatever it is it just bothers me.
Much as Debi Thomas and I would both have liked her to have won the Olympics, she ended up with a bronze medal.
She got bronze at Worlds that year as well, and then since she never medalled again, I can only assume she gave up her Olympic eligibilty.
She did continue to compete in professional competitions, and I believe took a year off between graduation and med school to tour with Scott Hamilton.
Dick Button undoubtedly went to school between his first and second Olympic golds, which was why I limited my comments to post school figure Olympic champs.
loveskating
10-10-2002, 04:04 PM
Sarah is overall a wonderful skater, she is the only one out there who consistently landed a tough 3/3 last season, and her spins are great, she has nice edges, and her spiral sequence is at least 4th or 5th in the world, and also, she manages to stay on her feet most of the time.
But there IS something wrong with her posture...she is very often badly off center, she has rounded shoulders, and is just not fully stretched out all the time, is stiff or held in.
I did note that at Campbells while her extended leg on the spiral was not as "high" it was straight...she is working on that, and more power to her! I love it when skaters work on things and become better and better. Thats so fun and so great to see from an inspirational POV.
Saying Sarah needs to work on her posture is exactly like saying Sasha needs a 3/3...its not attacking Sarah, its just stating what is obvious.
Also, Sarah has a really bad flutz and she also underrotates her jumps, especially the FLIP, a lot.
Mayra
10-10-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by JDC1
Sorry CMc but her posture drives me nuts and yet I can't put a finger on it. I think it has to do with her shoulders and her knee bend. I know it must drive you nuts since you don't agree but I just can't get past it.
IMO it has more to do with the costumes she wears than Sarah herself. I don't find her posture as jarring as others. Some of the the back baring costumes she wears don't flatter her upper body. Her Olympic sp costume looked like a beautifully made dress, but it just didn't flatter her in the least. It made her look like she was slouching more than she probably was. Her DQ for Worlds in 2002 on the other hand was a very beautiful dress and more importantly it was flattering to Sarah.
As far as the program itself, it looked fine to me considering it was only 2 weeks old. I didn't think the ilusions placed throughout the program fit with the music and the overall feel of the program. But I don't like ilusions spins or ilusion anythings, so that could be why I didn't like that. ;)
michele
10-10-2002, 06:26 PM
Like RoseAugust, I was pretty disappointed in my first viewing but enjoyed the second one more. I liked Sarah's in-between skating (as complex as you'll get these days) and really the only thing that bugged me choreographically were the stops to pose. The music is nice enough, though I wish it were more engaging with better highlights. But all in all, Sarah's got a very solid shot at a World title *if* she lands her planned jumps (assuming the delivery of her program will be much improved by then). :)
And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this was her last season - most particularly if she does win Worlds...she's young, but five full senior seasons is a pretty decent run.
sk8rzmom
10-10-2002, 06:54 PM
Just a question about those SAT's that rack posted as legencary. DId she already take them and get "legendary" scores, or is it legendary because she has made no secret what she hopes to score? And if she hasn't taken them, will she post them if they're not high enough?
AxelAnnie22
10-10-2002, 07:04 PM
Another "Sorry" - but her posture needs work. It is her upper back that is the problem. And, it has nothing to do with her height. She is simply slightly slouched, and when she "emotes" it gets worse. There was a place in her SP last year where she did a "slouchy" thing in the corner. It seems to me that the less comfortable she is with the music, the more the rounded her shoulders appear. I don't notice it at all with FOSSE, for example.
Sarah is the only one of the ladies with a posture problem. It is quite like Timmy's shoulders. Something to fix. Not a fatal flaw.....
As to skating to and interpreting the music, it is very important to the judges, and IMU, part of the presentation mark.
duane
10-10-2002, 07:55 PM
another "i see nothing wrong with her posture" here. i do think it might appear that way to some because of her height (very tall for a female skater). last i heard she was 5'6", but she may have grown even more taller in the past year.
proam
10-10-2002, 08:58 PM
Doubt the judges are saying, “Oh my God look at that posture”. :roll:
Like beauty posture is in the eyes of the beholder.
Sarah has progressed every year since 1998 with that body, in the end that is what counts. Sarah is successful with that supposed bad posture; wonder how many skaters with supposed good posture would like some of Sarah’s success?
I knew when watching Sarah exhibition number at the 1998 Goodwill Games that Sarah was special, I couldn’t really define exactly what, but knew she was different and I knew she would go far. She did not disappoint.
I was disappointed in Sarah's program at Campbells. I expected her to be more prepared, but as reported several times, she has been busy and this is early in the season.
I agree about her posture and disagreed with the 5.9 for presentation.
I am sure she and Robin refine this program, just as all the other skaters will continue to refine their programs.
Chico
10-10-2002, 10:17 PM
I also agree that Sarah seems to hunch a little. I disagree that judges don't notice, I'm positive they take in a skaters whole package. I skate, and my coach is always pounding into my head that the LITTLE things do count and add to a skater. I didn't used to understand this, but notice this big time now in my peers and concentrate on myself. This is what makes the difference between someone like......M.K. and..... S.H. Both are talented girls, but one has the ease and details and the other doesn't yet. I'm not saying M.K. is perfect, but she does have the package. Well, she does need more difficult jumps. S.H needs to work on those shoulders. Oh, I do agree that Sarah's costumes don't always help her posture appearance.
Chico
Badams
10-10-2002, 11:25 PM
i never really had a problem with her posture. but does she still throw her free leg up way high when she takes off for a jump? that's what always bothered me. but no skater is perfect.
Posture, like musicality, is in the eye of the beholder. My friend Christy's favorite skater is Michelle Kwan. Christy prefers Sasha Cohen to Angela Nikodinov and Michael Weiss to Matt Savoie because she she prefers their shoulder positions. Yet the one posture problem that drives me beserk- the way John Zimmerman humps over to compensate for the height differential between him and Kyoko Ina- doesn't bother her at all, because she doesn't mind if the male pairs partner is substantially taller than the female (and in all the discussions I've read or heard about John Zimmerman, no one has ever mentioned his hump, nor do I remember any other negative comments about Angela Nikodinov's shoulders).
So in an effort to keep this on topic, I will point out that Sarah's success with jumps, spins, and in betweens seems to please the international judges more than her cheats, flutzes, lack of musicality, and slouches bothers them. They liked what she did with her Olympic long program enough to jump her from fourth place to first, and it makes sense for her to have a long program this year similar in style and content.
AxelAnnie22
10-11-2002, 08:48 AM
Nice post, RACK. But I would disagree about posture and musicality being in the eye of the beholder. These are quantifyable and measurable. Whether or not they bother the person watching, scoring, is another matter entirely.
I am not so sure about how much the international judges like Sarah. Seems to me that she wins when others falter. Have we seen her beat a clean Irina, Michelle or Sasha? It is too early in the morning to be sure, but I don't think so.
So, I would say that Sarah gets a very clear message about her jumps, spins and inbetweens.
There is lots to like about Sarah's skating. But, it is not seamless as is Michelle, Angela, Sasha's.
As to posture - it has nothing to do with her height as related to skating. If she were out there on the ice with a bunch of tiny ones, she might slouch to keep from looking taller, but since she skates alone, that is not the case. Sarah seems to be taller than the other female members of her family.....and that is where the slouch probably comes from. It is hard for a girl to be tall - although not as hard as it was when I was 5'9" in Jr. High. Add to that a couple of you know whats, and what some gals do is round the shoulders and slouch a bit to compensate.
Sarah's tendency to slouch is most evident (to me) when she is being dramatic with the music. We, as humans, usually turn to the place we are most comfortable (i.e. slouching) when we are uncomfortable (i.e. trying to be dramatic on the ice).
She'll get it fixed when she internalizes how it looks, and the importance of fixing it. She is young.
Yazmeen
10-11-2002, 09:18 AM
I will "ditto" the complaints about the costume--that dress should be taken away and burned. That "cross strap" effect top is the most unflattering thing Sarah could wear--her shoulder blades stick out and she looks hunched, even when she's standing straight. She seems to have a thing for that style, and I wish she would drop it. So many of her costumes have made her look frankly gawky and they take away from her beautiful skating.
Of all the skaters, Sarah seriously need "costume therapy." Hello, Jeff Billings/Vera Wang, others--help this girl out!!!!
michele
10-11-2002, 10:43 AM
ITA - Sarah seriously needs to dump Tania Bass (I believe she's her main costume designer) and retain Billings. Maybe she'll do like last year though and just go to him for Worlds...here's hoping! :) There are others too, I bet even Brad Griffies could come up with something nice based on Andrea Varreaux's beautiful LP costume.
loveskating
10-11-2002, 10:55 AM
Carriage is not in the eye of the beholder...its things like being centered on turns, not being bent forward on strokes, not having your head way in front of your body on a pose
Originally posted by michele
ITA - Sarah seriously needs to dump Tania Bass (I believe she's her main costume designer) and retain Billings. Maybe she'll do like last year though and just go to him for Worlds...here's hoping! :) There are others too, I bet even Brad Griffies could come up with something nice based on Andrea Varreaux's beautiful LP costume.
Oh, you mean THE Tania Bass?
http://www.taniabass.com
I'd choose my words carefully if I were you, michele, she may be posting on here.
BTW, I happen to love the dress!;)
Originally posted by michele
And yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if this was her last season...
Yeah, don't you wish?:roll:
donnamarie
10-11-2002, 08:07 PM
Posture is in the eye of the beholder, I agree, and certainly musicality is. Some people think one skater is musical, others think someone else is. Of course, there are always those who think that their own definition of musicality (and grace) is indisputable. Personally I think Sarah is musical and I think she's graceful. I have no problem with her posture. Some people are assuming that the judges mark her down for her posture and so-called lack of musicality, but this is an assumption on their part. Have any judges come out and said so? No. Has anyone here discussed this with the judges? I doubt it.
With this thread about Sarah, I can tell the season has begun, and it looks like a repeat. Let's hope her successes will also be a repeat :D
(By the way, is this "news" or what folder should it be in? If there is discussion in this folder as well as that other folder, how do we know where to put things? Thanks for clarification.)
Eagle
10-11-2002, 09:39 PM
Sarah, to me, endeavors to be much more original on the ice than some other skaters. This is reflected in a number of arm movements and other positions she "strikes" on the rink. I find some of them very pretty, although there are a few which could use a little more polish, IMO.
I tend to agree with some other posters here, that her costumes are not always the best choices for her. With her contemporary hair style and her long body lines, I would really love to see her in something similar to either Jill Trenary's outfit from the LP in her 1991 World Championship season, or a Chinese-influenced pastel-color silk outfit with a "turtleneck" cut and an off-center squared panel front (running from shoulder to skirt hem). I feel these are two types of styles that would transform her into a fashionable rink maven, while also accenting her classical lines.
proam
10-11-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by donnamarie
Posture is in the eye of the beholder, I agree, and certainly musicality is. Some people think one skater is musical, others think someone else is. Of course, there are always those who think that their own definition of musicality (and grace) is indisputable. Personally I think Sarah is musical and I think she's graceful. I have no problem with her posture. Some people are assuming that the judges mark her down for her posture and so-called lack of musicality, but this is an assumption on their part. Have any judges come out and said so? No. Has anyone here discussed this with the judges? I doubt it.
With this thread about Sarah, I can tell the season has begun, and it looks like a repeat. Let's hope her successes will also be a repeat :D
(By the way, is this "news" or what folder should it be in? If there is discussion in this folder as well as that other folder, how do we know where to put things? Thanks for clarification.)
Well, Sarah is proving to be so popular at Skatingforum that I think she should have her own very own folder here- how about “Sarah the Olympic Gold Champion”. ;) :)
duane
10-12-2002, 12:12 AM
i totally agree with your post, donna.
but i knew that the minute sarah became Olympic champion that her fans would have to be able to endure the many criticisms that she would face--more so than when she was merely a "threat".
CMc, i give you credit for your continuing efforts in stating all the good of sarah. personally, i'm going to continue to stress sarah's height. her height is a disadvantage for her as a skater. look at the top female skaters over the past decades, and one thing that they all have in common is their small stature--until a female by the name of sarah hughes came along.
i'll admit that sasha is perhaps my ultimate favorite skater at the moment, but sarah has my ultimate respect because i know how genetics make it much more difficult for her to compete at the level that she does.
NorthernLite
10-12-2002, 09:44 AM
As a fan dating back a few years, I don't think Sarah endures more criticism now than she always has. It just stands out more.
She was 7th then 5th in the World at ages 13-14 with what seemed like very little fanfare (people were talking about NNN and Sasha those years).
Then at age 15, when she finished on the podium with MK and Irina at GPF and Worlds, some claimed her accomplishments weren't as impressive as Oksana, Michelle and Tara, who'd all *won* Worlds by 15. I, and others asked, but who else in the modern era has even made the podium by that age?
Last season, around Nats, there were more predictions she would slide -- and this after she'd beaten MK and Irina at Skate Canada.
That some people are making the kinds of predictions I've seen elsewhere this summer/fall (that the Olys was a fluke yadayada) is just kind of amusing to me. I'm not expecting her to win everything but I think she is going to contribute more to skating.
I once realized some years ago that I was getting so caught up in following favorites that I wasn't appreciating the impressive accomplishments of other skaters. I would hope people who haven't cared that much for Sarah would step back and try to look at the positive qualities that made her Olympic champion.
We're in a golden age of skating -- we have so many good skaters, and each brings something special to the mix.
Marco
10-12-2002, 10:16 AM
Posture has nothing to do with height. Michelle and Irina are roughly the same height, give or take an inch. Jennifer Robinson is also about as tall as Sarah, give or take an inch. Andrejs Vlascenko of Germany is 6 ft 2 and like half a feet taller than most male skaters, yet he has very very strong posture and carriage.
donnamarie
10-12-2002, 11:25 AM
Duane I agree about Sarah being tall. It is harder for tall skaters, especially tall women skaters. How many tall skaters can we even think of? Viktoria seems tall - Nancy seemed tall (compared to most skaters) Tonya K. seemed tall (and awkward) to me until I stood next to her and realized she was not tall at all ... the taller skaters do have a harder time seeming graceful ... I think the tiny skaters have an advantage ... tiny = cute ... jumps don't have to be as high ... long legs aren't getting in the way ...
Tallness does have something to do with posture, as tall people sometimes slouch to compensate for their height; short people might stand tall in an attempt to seem taller or be noticed. That's not to say that all tall people have poor posture or vica versa. It's just an observation.
Tallness might be an advantage as a dancer, ballerina etc., but as a skater, it seems to be a disadvantage. When you see skaters in person, you realize how small and short most of them are. So there must be something to this.
duane
10-12-2002, 02:32 PM
maria b. always seemed very tall to me, especially in comparison to the other skaters, and i was shocked when i read that she is only 5'3". one time, she and yagudin were being interviewed together, and i then realized how small she is because yagudin seemed to tower over her (and he's, what, 5'7"?). i think nancy is 5'2".
Ellyn
10-12-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by NorthernLite
Then at age 15, when she finished on the podium with MK and Irina at GPF and Worlds, some claimed her accomplishments weren't as impressive as Oksana, Michelle and Tara, who'd all *won* Worlds by 15. I, and others asked, but who else in the modern era has even made the podium by that age?
"the modern era" = post-figures? Lu Chen and Evgeny Plyushenko each won world bronze medals at age 15, in 1992 and 1998, respectively. (Yes, the fact that these were post-Olympic Worlds did help.)
If by "modern era" you mean, e.g., post-WWII, then the list is a lot longer.
GreekGoddess85
10-12-2002, 06:08 PM
Sarah Hughes is not my favorite skater I think that some of her costumes are very pretty and others are not. I find nothing wrong with her posture and she only had 2 weeks to create that program I am sure with time it will be better :)
ToddFan
10-12-2002, 06:14 PM
Thinking that Sarah sometimes skates with an odd "posture" does not mean that you are seeing things out of sour grapes, as I do but also think she's a really special person and -- especially when she has one of those "zone" skates like at the Olympics -- a very good skater :)
I really don't think that anyone should automatically attribute observations or criticisms to the observer's being an anti-fan of the skater, any more than praise should automatically be attributed to blind uber-fans and discounted because of it :) JMO
donnamarie
10-12-2002, 08:43 PM
It's hard to tell on television how tall anyone is. I thought Philippe was tall, but he's not any taller than Elvis, just more long-waisted. I used to think Maria was tall too, and when I saw her in practice, I was surprised by how tiny she was. Is Nancy really only 5'2"? I thought she was taller.
michele
10-13-2002, 01:07 AM
Cmc - I never said I *wished* that this were Sarah's last season! Please don't put words in my mouth. But she's talked about becoming a doctor, getting 1500-1600 on the SATs, almost certainly aiming for the Ivy League. That's not exactly compatible with gunning for a World title - and I'm in med school now, so I know what the pre-med road is like. :) IF she wins Nats and Worlds this season, I think it's highly likely she'll decide to pursue her academic goals full time - and if so, great for her. I know she'll be successful in life whatever she does.
I don't mind *all* Sarah's costumes either, btw. But I haven't liked her LP ones with the exception of her Olympic dress. Something which doesn't reflect on Sarah as a person or even *skater*, for that matter. :) If you happen to be Bass I'm sorry, but there's really no need to turn me into a "Sarah-hater" when I'm not.
nymkfan51
10-13-2002, 10:00 AM
I can't say whether judges have ever taken points off Sarah's scores for poor posture ... somehow I doubt it. I do think, however that it takes away from the overall look of her presentation. It doesn't take away though, from the fact that there are many positive points to her skating.
As for her costumes ... Sarah's are like most skaters ... some are nice and some not so. My favorite of hers was the one in her Oly SP ... thought it was stunning.
And ... as for the criticism Sarah has gotten already, and that which she will no doubt receive in the future ... it is sadly the way things are in life. Everyone works hard to get to the top, and people praise them and urge them on ... but once they get there, those same people are the first ones to tear them down. Just ask Michelle Kwan about that.
Being at the top can be very painful, and lonely, at times. Sad, but true.
kwanette
10-13-2002, 06:12 PM
Jill Trenary did not compete at the 91 Worlds.
Every skater will be criticized. There are many things to be admired in Sarah's skating, I just don't think her posture is one of them. I, too, loved her OLY sp dress. It was elegant and just plain lovely.
I was considering pointing out that Sarah didn't have to wait to get to the top before being so robustly criticized, until I realized that in four years's time, she's gone from 7th at her first Worlds to Olympic champion and number 2 in the ISU rankings, which means she's pretty much been at the top her entire career.
I have read criticisms of just about every aspect of Sarah from her hair to her ankles, with plenty of stops at her nose, her shoulders, her back, her knees, her costumes, her jumps, her footwork, her spins, her spirals, her coach, her choreography, her music choices, her understanding of the music she's chosen, her responses to interview questions, her post competition comments, how her coach has looked while reading other skaters' ordinals, her family's financial situation, her loyalty to her home state, her writing style, and her academic ambitions.
And yet she is the Olympic champion and number two in the ISU rankings. I know I've suggested this before, but it seems to need repeating. The international judges apparently don't find Sarah's flutzes, cheats, inadequate posture, lack of musicality, or even her unsophisticated writing style, all that problematic.
I'm with the judges. I'm happy to write that I like Sarah (and you will notice that no "but" follows).;)
adrianchew
10-13-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by rack
And yet she is the Olympic champion and number two in the ISU rankings. I know I've suggested this before, but it seems to need repeating. The international judges apparently don't find Sarah's flutzes, cheats, inadequate posture, lack of musicality, or even her unsophisticated writing style, all that problematic.
I'm with the judges. I'm happy to write that I like Sarah (and you will notice that no "but" follows).;)
Actually that would be inaccurate - her low placement at the Olympics in the short program would certainly point to fundamental weaknesses in technique that could hurt her, had other ladies been clean in the freeskate. I wouldn't be surprised if Michelle had done only clean 6 triples she would have won the freeskate, ahead of Sarah.
As it stands - Sarah had the performance of the night, but she is not clearly 'heads & shoulders' above the competition that she can sit back and relax just yet.
I can totally understand the annoyance of constant nitpicking about Sarah though. And as I was reminded recently - sometimes you just have to forget the results and ignore the talk - and enjoy the skating of your favorites. Its much harder to do that though, I'll totally admit. But don't let others spoil your enjoyment! ;)
donnamarie
10-14-2002, 06:51 AM
Rack I love your post and agree totally, thank you for expressing what some of us feel. I do feel that Sarah is one who has always drawn a lot of criticism. Some skaters do inspire more criticism than others. It's hard if you happen to like such a skater. People who are not particular fans of such a skater might not realize how much criticism there is, because it doesn't bother them. This thread about Sarah's new program has turned into a criticism of her posture. I am sure that her many other areas of weakness (in some people's eyes) will also draw attention as the season progresses. We will be told to "deal with it" and of course that's the only thing one can do, except stick up for Sarah when appropriate. It's just amazing to me that one with so many flaws and shortcomings as Sarah can be so successful ;) Thank goodness, she does not receive as much criticism as she used to before she won the Olympics. Also I'm sure the moderators here won't let it go as far overboard as it did on the old board.
adrianchew
10-14-2002, 08:04 AM
It would seem that this topic is definitely straying off topic - since the title and original post was about Sarah's program, not her posture, so let's try to get it back on track, please.
I'll delete any further posts on posture that I see under this topic. :twisted:
Thanks. ~adrianchew~
AxelAnnie22
10-14-2002, 08:51 AM
I'll take a stab at a post here that is "ON TOPIC" LOL!
I would like to see Sarah do something less lyrical (since I don't think it taps into her strengths) and more playful - along the lines of Irina's CULTURE. I think Sarah is a strong skater, and needs strong music. Also, I suspect that Sarah has a wonderful playful side that would be great if expressed on the ice.
You see this is why I don't get ladies skating anymore. Everyone wants a skater to do what another skater is doing. And then rap about the many DQ, Rach and Carmen in the ladies events.
I say to SH - continue doing what works for you. You are miles ahead other ladies as far as dealing with the such heavy pressure cookers as the Olympics. You can draw from that in the coming years. Heck, she is probably ahead of many of us as far as learning how to handle nerves. I am sure she has weakness...like every other skater...but there is no need to tear her. Actually, maybe there is something good going on here.
I just realized that you know a skater is *successful* when people post pages and pages about the skater's weakness. To Sarah Hughes - if you are reading this...you have done RIGHT this past year and continue to do what you like not what others want you to do.
bmcc102
10-14-2002, 01:29 PM
test
bmcc102
10-14-2002, 01:37 PM
:D
This program was GREAT! I love the music so much! I think that this was a great choice to follow up last year's "Daphnis and Chloe" because it is much lighter in style and seems like more fun!
My favorite section of music is where she is leading into the lutz and takes off and lands right on the perfect beat (of course she doubled it here, but oh well). It goes right into some great interpretive footwork to the music. I wonder how effective it will be if the lutz becomes a combo though... may not have the same effect. (Thinking back to Sasha's perfectly timed 3 flip-3toe at GWG, that may have been horribly two-footed, but spot on musically.)
I also enjoy the pose she had right after the well varied position on the flying camel! The combination spin was great too: camel-cannonball sit- b. camel- flying b.sit (not a deathdrop like she was doing last season)-b.Y. Very difficult and shades of Midori Ito and Kristi Yamaguchi in the SP at Worlds 91. She will have to work on getting the leg off the ground more for the flying part...
The thing I love about her programs is that they are so difficult in both jumps, spins, and moves in the field! I always wonder if people would be so critical of Robin's choreography if worked with another skater, because she is full of ideas and difficult moves!
Some things she should work on. The weird arm positions look awkward on Sarah. I think with a different dress, one with long sleeves that doesn't emphasize how skinny Sarah's arms are. Think about her costume for "Never Say Goodbye"-- the white one. She looked great! It's the sleeves, I am telling you!!
I predict that the jump order for early season will be:
2 axel- 3 toe sequence
3 salchow/3 loop combination
back spiral- 3 loop
3 lutz/2 toe
3 flip
3 toe (or lutz, depending on the competition)
Later in the season she may change it to:
2 axel
3 salchow/3 loop
3 lutz/2 toe
3 toe/3 loop
3 flip
3 toe (or lutz, depending on the comp)
This is just my feeling in advance. I have been known to correctly guess jumping order changes in the past. :)
Patty
10-15-2002, 05:53 AM
*NOTE To Adrian/ MODS:
I posted this before I saw Adrian's post discouraging us from discussing posture. I request that you please leave my post since I think it might shed some light on the posture issue from someone who has struggled with it.
Posture is an element of line and form, which makes up part of the presentation mark. Thus, it is a part of a skater's program. But, I also understand that some people might feel this one specific program element has been brought up too many times in this particular thread.
Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
As to posture - it has nothing to do with her height as related to skating. If she were out there on the ice with a bunch of tiny ones, she might slouch to keep from looking taller, but since she skates alone, that is not the case. Sarah seems to be taller than the other female members of her family.....and that is where the slouch probably comes from. It is hard for a girl to be tall - although not as hard as it was when I was 5'9" in Jr. High. Add to that a couple of you know whats, and what some gals do is round the shoulders and slouch a bit to compensate.
Sarah's tendency to slouch is most evident (to me) when she is being dramatic with the music. We, as humans, usually turn to the place we are most comfortable (i.e. slouching) when we are uncomfortable (i.e. trying to be dramatic on the ice).
She'll get it fixed when she internalizes how it looks, and the importance of fixing it. She is young.
I have struggled with bad posture all my life. People falsely assume it's just because I'm ashamed of my height (5'10"). But, it's really because I actually find it physically difficult to stand up straight. It takes a lot of energy for me to stand up stright. I try to, but then I become fatiqued, and fall back to my much more physically comfortable slouching position. For me, standing up straight is as physically difficult as trying to keep my leg/ knee straight in a spiral/ arabesque.
For years-- directors, teachers, coaches, etc. tried to help me improve my posture. My college even paid for me to go to a Andre Bernard (?) seminar. But nothing really ever helped. I'd still like to take Alexander Technique lessons someday to see if that might help.
Internalizing how posture or any other position should look hasn't helped me. I have many times pictured correct posture or a correct dance position in my head. Then, I look in the mirror, and it doesn't look at all like the picture in my head.
My problem might be genetic. My mom and brothers also have bad posture. My mom says she has a bone missing in her back and wonders if that's been the cause of her bad posture. Maybe I have a bone missing in my back as well.
To my eyes, Sarah's shoulders usually look as rounded as mine. I'm sure she's working on it. But, if it's genetic, she may never have as good of posture as skaters who seem to have been born with naturally good posture like Dorothy, Michelle, and Sasha. But, Sarah isn't alone. Someone already mentioned Tim. And Irina has often stooped and slouched as well.
Patty
10-15-2002, 06:51 AM
IMO, her program has a lot of potential. I thought it had the most- inbetweens of any of the ladies skaters' programs. It was watching how she weaved in the in- betweens that made her program interesting to me. I hope she can keep all the in- betweens and make them more connected, cohesive, and polished, while at the same time adding in her more difficult jumps. I also hope the other ladies and their coaches and choregraphers took note of this program, and will be adding more in- betweens to their programs.
loveskating
10-15-2002, 01:08 PM
I think Sarah has lots of "in betweens"; she usually does. I agree that some of them could be done better...more centered, more polished.
Sarah has been known to light up the rink a few times, for sure...but I'm not sure she has found herself. She strikes me as a kind of lighthearted person, very grounded, not carefree, but not dramatic as a person, not passionate. If I were her choreographer, I'd have her skate to Mozart, something light, tweaky, something like eine kleine nacht musik almost, or if opera, something from Daughter of the Regiment, or Elisir d'Amore...something that is deep, but treated lightly. Its strange, because I thought Don Quixote was perfect for her, although she didn't fully realize that program IMHO, but lots of people don't like Don Quixote for some reason. Still, that's more Sarah's personality to me.
Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
I would like to see Sarah do something less lyrical (since I don't think it taps into her strengths) and more playful - along the lines of Irina's CULTURE. I think Sarah is a strong skater, and needs strong music. Also, I suspect that Sarah has a wonderful playful side that would be great if expressed on the ice.
Just a question AxelAnnie--Are you saying Sarah isn't lyrical when she shows playfulness? What exactly would you call her movements in "Don Quixote"?
And about the strong music issue, she's been using it--"Daphnis et Chloe" was pretty powerful. I think this "La Bayadere" program is pretty strong music-wise.
AxelAnnie22
10-15-2002, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by CMc
Just a question AxelAnnie--Are you saying Sarah isn't lyrical when she shows playfulness? What exactly would you call her movements in "Don Quixote"?
And about the strong music issue, she's been using it--"Daphnis et Chloe" was pretty powerful. I think this "La Bayadere" program is pretty strong music-wise.
Hi CMc Thanks for asking.
I am not saying that she isn't lyrical when she shows playfulness. I actually think that part of what worked for Sarah about Don Q was the inherent playfulness in the piece.
It appears to me (and I have many years of ballet in my background, so that always is the lens I look through) that Sarah is not as comfortable with the lyrical pieces as she is with the more playful pieces like FOSSE and her BEATLES MEDELY. Sometimes, to my eye, (and I am very clear that this is my OPINION, and not fact) Sarah is trying very hard to feel the music. In her OLY free skate, she didn't try to feel the music, she WAS the music. There is a huge difference. She was magical.
And, you are correct, that music is powerful. But, I think Sarah gets stuck sometimes in TRYING to show the power in the music, instead of BEING the power. Michelle, for example, does a wonderful job of expressing the music on the ice.
Sarah skated a couple of years ago, in her SP, to a piece that she said was about her love of the ice. The piece was actually written as an achingly lonely piece of music written by a composer who was separated from the love of his life......his wife. So Sarah was trying to show joy, while the music was crying out loneliness and longing. It would be as though Irina skated CULTURE with huge amounts of angst and head rolling. It just doesn't quite fit.
So, what I was saying was that Sarah seems, to me, to exhibit more freedom in the less lyrical pieces. And, I love that freedom in her skating.
AxelAnnie--I think I may see your point about the "Vocalise" program (I think that's the one you're speaking about). While I loved the concept for the movements/choreography and any of the in-between work for that SP, I thought it should have been used with perhaps another piece of music since the movements seemed to be way too lively for that otherwise very somber piece. Being a fan, though, I found myself somewhat torn over that issue. ;)
I'm looking forward to how "La Bayadere" progresses over the course of the season. I'll think she'll be able to feel the music even more than she did at the Daytona gig. But I think what we saw was a very good start.
AxelAnnie22
10-15-2002, 10:37 PM
Hi CMc
Thanks - yes it was VOCALISE. Gosh, I could not remember the name of that piece, and it was driving me crazy.
I am sure you are correct, that as the season moves forward, Sarah and her program will each grow more comfortable with each other. I can't wait. It has been fun to watch her (and everyone else) grow and mature.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.