Artistic and performance marks

[cazzie]

What do judges look for and how are these awarded? Very aware of very wide differences between different judges with my daughter and quite curious.

Have wondered if its about steps/step sequences?
Artistry (arms/dance type of stuff)?
The program and the music?

[londonicechamp]

Hi cazzie

I take that your daughter is doing a freestyle competition.

If so, the judges look at in jumping: 4 continuous strokes before landing a jump, and holding the landing edge for a minimum of 3 seconds.

In spins, the judges look at whether the spin is centred, whether spin is travelling (probably get mark reduction if spin is travelling).

The judges look at whether the required elements of the freestyle test are all attempted.

The judges will also look at whether the dance sequence is executed correctly.

I think that the judges do look out for artistic (whether arm position is elegant too) in a competition. They also look at music, of whether your daughter is listening to the music and so finish the program within the required time limit (probably mark reduction again if the program is finished too early.)

Hope this helps.

londonicechamp

[TreSk8sAZ]

Cazzie, what system is your daughter competing under (and in what country)? Is it ISI or USFSA if in the US and is it 6.0 scoring system or IJS? Each looks at things slightly differently, and you can probably get a more direct answer depending on the system. What londonicechamp wrote out is probably most true under ISI, but not necessarily true under the other systems (especially IJS scoring).

[cazzie]

It is the 6.0 system. It is her first season competing. Difference between highest and lowest marks as much as 0.6 difference so wondered what it was. Daughter also asking me...

I do know her weak point is holding jump landings/spin landings long enough (although coaches realise they may need to re-jig her program as she ran out of time on the last occasion when she held them properly).

[TreSk8sAZ]

6.0 looks at many things. However, since it is based on ordinals and not marks (meaning the numbers don't matter other than essentially as place holders for the ordinals and general idea of how they saw the skater) it is not unusal for judges to have a varying opinion as to marks. I have personally received marks as far apart as 1.5 points in the same competition, and the judges had me in the same ordinal order. However, the numbers should be in relation to the elements being done - for a reference, check out the tests requirements for each level.

However, as to what judges look for:

Speed/power: One of the factors is speed and power over the ice as is appropriate for the level. If a skater is particularly strong and covers ice well, that will stand out. If a skater is slow and tentative, that will count against them (again relative to the level they are in). This is both in the elements themselves (how high was the jump, did the skater come to a complete halt before it or did they skate into it) and in the transitions (was ice coverage appropriate for level, how powerful were strokes, etc).

Control: Both on individual elements and on transitions, again. Are the proper edges being used or are there edges at all? Are those edges generating the proper effect (speed/power, turns, etc)? When the skater is going into a jump, are they flinging themselves about or are they going up, completing the rotation, then holding the landing. In spins, are they controlling the entry edge and tightening the spin, or are they forcing things and traveling across the ice.

Transitions: Depending on the level, judges may look harder or less at this. However, a skater that does more than simply skate to and from elements will generally stand out more than those who do crossovers between elements. The caveat is these transitions must be controlled properly and not just be put in to have something there. Do the transitions go with the music? Does the skater look comfortable, or are they barely ekeing out the steps?

Elements: The elements themselves are of course important. Compared to other skaters, how high were the jumps, how controlled, full rotation, etc. Did the spins travel, were any variations appropriate and completed correctly, how many revolutions, etc. Were there any illegal elements or any popped or botched elements. Was something particularly good for the level that should be rewarded. Step sequences should cover the appropriate amount of ice. The steps should be appropriate for the level and completed on the proper edges.

Overall performace: Did the choreography go with the music? How about the dress? Was the music interpreted by the skater so that there was a relation between the skater and the music, or was the skater just out there with music in the background. Were the arm movements appropriate, or were they just stuck in and flailing about? Was the program as a whole performed well? Just because" a performance is "harder does not mean if it is not done well it will win. Was the skater comfortable on the ice and in front of the judges, or were they tentative and scared.

A lot of things go into the first and second marks. Under 6.0, first marks are technical and second marks are artistic. Elements go into the first category, overall performance and everything else the second. Each judge may place a slightly different emphasis on different things like egdes or jumps or spins. It all depends on the day.

I'm sure this is much longer than what you wanted, but just some things to think about. :giveup:

[blue111moon]

Keep in mind that in 6.0, the actual marks serve only as placeholders for the judges to rank the skaters from first to last. They may not reflect the actual level of the event. Some judges mark higher or lower than the average. So the range in marks means very little.

More important is to look at the placements your skater receives. If one judges' placement is out of line with the rest, then it might be worth asking to talk to the particular judge to find out what he/she saw or didn't see.

[cazzie]

Places do seem to vary as well -(I've never gone to the trouble of writing down all the marks to work all that out - but - many of the other parents do and one kindly emailed me the data from something a week ago) which showed varying between 2nd and 6th place. (Not sure about prior to that).

One of the more knowledgable parents has suggested that while daughter does dance and free, she free skates like an "ice dancer" (no idea quite what that means) and judges with more of a dance background might place her higher....

This thread has given me a lot of information - have shared some with my daughter who is quite fascinated. She has now asked me to video her regularly so she can watch herself skate.

[blue111moon]

What country are you in? USFS competitions almost never post the actual judges marks under 6.0. The results page that gets posted shows only the ordinal placements.

But it's not unusual for those placements to vary widely. Different judges emphasize different aspects of each performance. The only way to know what a judge liked or didn't like about a program is to ask him/her. Of course, you should only be asking about your skater and not anyone else in the flight.

[cazzie]

In Uk. These are announced although printed results at end don't give them.

[fsk8r]

In Uk. These are announced although printed results at end don't give them.

Some of the clubs are posting the full results on their websites now, so you might be able to go and look back over them. Sometimes I'm finding that it's just one judge giving wildly differing marks. When they're listed on the website, they tell you who judge 1, 2 and 3 are, so you can then compare for different competitions to see if Judge A is consistently different (Judge A might be 1 or 2 depending on the competition as they seem to swap around).